Any experience with CFE BLK in magnum revolvers?

[John Ross]

I've been involved with other projects and haven't stayed on top of everything new in the shooting world. Hodgdon has released this new powder for .300 Blackout (.300 Whisper clone) and it appears to be very similar in burn rate to 1680/WC680, which makes it an excellent powder for heavy, long-nose bullets in .500 S&W magnum.

My question is, has anyone loaded this powder down to more modest pressure levels in magnum revolvers? Does it suffer from the same ills as 296/H110 in that you get squibs that leave a bullet in the barrel if you go much below 30,000 PSI?

SR4759 is an ideal powder for people who want mid-power (stouter than Trail Boss) loads in the .500, but it's discontinued AFAIK. Perhaps CFE BLK can fill that role?

JR

[BHill]

Interested as well. I'm a long way from using up my stash of SR4759 but if this is a viable alternative I wouldn't be as frugal with it!

[John Ross]

The info on the Hodgdon site looks promising. They show "starting loads" with CFE BLK in the 22,000 PSI range for the lighter .500 bullets, when H110/296 loads start around 40,000 PSI for the same slugs.

I'll see if Hodgdon will answer the question about the lower pressure threshold for uniform performance with this powder.

JR

[308Jeff]

I'm glad you posted this, because I have a keg of it and have been wondering the same thing myself. It can't be good for only the small handful of cartridges that Hodgdon lists.

[BHill]

Just a quick look at 300 blkout data shows it working down at 13,400 psi. Smaller volume but promising.

[BHill]

210447

[TMenezes]

I am glad you brought this up, I immediately jumped on this load data awhile back when I first saw it for the 500 S&W. However no one around here stocks this powder and didn't want to pay hazardous fee's for a keg of untried powder.

I did forum searches of this site and several others with no results. The threads I started also got little response as those that had tried it only used it for 300 BO. I believe one of the threads dissolved into a debate about whether or not the powder was considered "bulky".

In my mind it is, for the simple fact that the case runs out of space before you run into pressure issues. Others disagreed, so didn't get the information I was looking for.

So I am glad to see the father of the S&W 500 taking an interest in this powder as well. Things are slowing down at work so hopefully I will have time to track this powder down and do some testing as well.

[John Ross]

I don't have a sample to look at, but IMO CFE BLK is not "bulky." From the data, it looks like it's denser than H110/296, but enough slower that you need to use a lot more of it to approach max loads.

As an example, with the 500 grain Hornady JSP, According to Hodgdon 33 grains of H110 and 48 grains (compressed) of CFE BLK give close to the same pressure (~51,000 PSI). A charge of 48 grains is a lot of powder to fit under a 500 grain bullet loaded to an OAL of 2.065".

If CFE BLK does indeed work well at 13,000 PSI and in cold weather, this may be THE powder for all .500 loads at EVERY power level, especially with the long-nose slugs I prefer. Time to dust off the chronograph...

JR

[missionary5155]

Good morning
If it will work well in the .500 then I can see it working well in the Supermags and other long straights wall brass with heavy for caliber projectiles. Have to think about the 50 Alaskan and 405 JES as well.
Mike in Peru

[John Ross]

The .50 Alaskan has enough powder space that slower powders such as 4198/H322/3031 are better suited. Agree with you about the Supermags, I am unfamiliar with the .405 JESS.

JR

[kweidner]

I have an aquaintance who in fact tried it and had a resulting squib. I can verify this as I helped him remove it. It was a jacketed bullet now and I dont recall the specifics as it was a year ago. I know this doesn’t add much to the conversation but there you have it.

[Warhawk]

I picked up 2 pounds of CFE BLK today. I'm hoping it turns out to be a versatile powder for the 500 Mag.

[TMenezes]

Any results with this powder in the 500 yet? Waiting anxiously lol...

[waco]

I have only used it with a 230gr NOE boolit in the 300blk using 10.8gr. Right around 1" groups at 100.

[Moonie]

I've been looking at this powder for our 300 BO guns. I hadn't considered using it in my 500 S&W Encore but I'm certainly interested as I'm in on the 700gr mold from Mihec to add to the Lee 440gr I cast for it now.

[John Ross]

I suspect you can use 1680 data for it in the .500, but I don't think you'll be able to get a max load with the 700 gr. Mihec with it in a S&W revolver. Your Encore is another matter, not limited to 2.32" OAL...

26 296 was 100% load density and gave 1100 FPS in my gun. S&W pressure tested my loads at 57,100 PSI. I'm predicting 26 CFE BLK will give about 960 FPS@46,000 PSI, which might be all you want...

[Moonie]

I suspect you can use 1680 data for it in the .500, but I don't think you'll be able to get a max load with the 700 gr. Mihec with it in a S&W revolver. Your Encore is another matter, not limited to 2.32" OAL...

26 296 was 100% load density and gave 1100 FPS in my gun. S&W pressure tested my loads at 57,100 PSI. I'm predicting 26 CFE BLK will give about 960 FPS@46,000 PSI, which might be all you want...

I've found the upper charges of W296/H110 I've loaded with the Lee 440gr are brutal in the 15" Encore. Ripped open my trigger finger, I think it was from hitting the frame, I use shooting gloves now.

[Michael J. Spangler]

Subscribed.
I don’t have a 500 but since I started playing with CFE BLK in my blackout I’ve been convinced it would be awesome in 45/70 and I’m dying for a quick load profile so I can run some numbers.

[boatswainsmate]

I've loaded these four different bullets in 500 Magnum with CFE Black so far. The Hp's are weighing in at 390 grains on average, solids from the same mold are 400 grains. The John Ross inspired Mountain Mold I had made are coming in at 460 grains. All the bullets were powder coated. The 460 grain bullets were all I wanted since they bruised my hand. The others were manageable after my hand was numb. If you want the charge weights send me a PM. Sorry I didn't have a chronograph at the time.
https://preview.ibb.co/btDSDG/DSCN3727.jpg (https://ibb.co/iTTG7b)
https://preview.ibb.co/bPc9y6/DSCN3724.jpg (https://ibb.co/c2CyrR)

[JSH]

Cartridge caliber?

[boatswainsmate]

Cartridge caliber?

Sorry. 500 Magnum

[John Ross]

Look at thread number 8---- 38.0 grs. of H-110 for the 500 gr.JSP don't think so.

So I am glad to see the father of the S&W 500 taking an interest in this powder as well. Things are slowing down at work so hopefully I will have time to track this powder down and do some testing as well.[/QUOTE]

Corrected. Thanks for catching that.

As 44mag#1 has pointed out, in full power 500 loads using bullets in the medium weight ranges (440-500 gr.), you need about 4 more grains of 1680 compared to H110 to get similar results.

According to Hodgdon, with the 500 grain Hornady bullet you need 10 to 15 more grains of CFE BLK compared to H110. This would indicate that CFE BLK may be a whole 'nother kettle of fish compared to any powder we've used before in the .500.

213488

Pulling out the calculator while looking at this data, we find other interesting things.

Raising the powder charge of H110 from 31.0 to 33.0 grains (6.5% increase) raises the pressure from 34,400 PSI to 51,900 PSI, a 51% increase.

With CFE BLK, raising the powder charge from 40.8 to 48.0 grains (17.6% increase) raises the pressure from 36,700 PSI to 51,100 PSI, a 39% increase.

As I said, CFE BLK seems to be something we've not seen before.

[Cannon Man]

Just a quick update for some of our members. I have been in touch with Ron Reiber from Hodgdon and as I type this there are brass and bullets headed his way. We use a modified version of Richard Gibson's (Ranger Rick) 700 gr. that he provided us (Ballistic Supply) with in 2004. Steve Brooks made the mold and the only difference is the meplat is slightly smaller in diameter so it is "less a full wadcutter design" and also a plain base.
I test loaded some of them today starting with 30.0 grs. CFE BLK and noted no high pressure signs. I advanced to 32.0 grs. and chronograph readings were a nominal 1,080 fps with a low ES. Primer flattening was becoming apparent and I had hoped to reach 35.0 grs. at which load density would be 100% at the start of compression. Since the components are in route to Hodgdon and they have the RIGHT testing equipment I stopped at this point.
I think the CFE BLK will turn out to be another fine choice of powder for the 500 S&W especially in the 350-500 gr. bullet weights with obvious uses in the heavyweights.
It should also be noted that MP-300 has turned in some impressive numbers, nominal 1,150 fps with the 700 gr. loaded at 26.0 grs. (severe primer flattening at proof loads of 28.0 grs.) and the 26.0 gr. load was very accurate. All info from a S&W with the 8 3/8" barrel
I will post Hodgdon's velocity and pressure readings as soon as I get the numbers back from Ron. The next venture will be to powder coat the 700 gr. and 630 gr HP and see what we can learn from that. Last bit of info for those who use Puff-Lon as a means to reduce leading while reducing hardness for massive expansion .6 cc seems to work fairly well. Hope this helps the "Big Boomer Shooters".

[Cannon Man]

Just received some info back from Callahan Mciver at Hodgdon Powder. The following is from a 10" test barrel using the 700 gr. hardcast loaded to 2.250".
The first test was 25.0 grs. of H-110 which is our standard loading and it gave 1,151 fps at 42,500 psi. and a ES of 11 fps
The second test was with CFE BLK loaded to 34.0 grs. and it gave 1,225 fps at 39,700 psi and a ES of 16 fps.
*** It should be noted that when I used a S&W 500 with the 8 3/8" barrel 32.0 grs. of CFE BLK showed a flattening of the primers this was with a c.o.l of 2.298". So if you are inclined to work your way up to 34.0 grs. of CFE BLK do so in very gradual increments.
Callahan also stated that the 34.0 grs. of CFE BLK was at 100% load density at the 2.250" c.o.l and we have found that 35.0 grs. at 2.298" starts to compress the powder.
All brass used was Starline with Winchester Large Rifle Primers.
Given the other uses for CFE BLK in other calibers I think this is one powder I will always keep on hand. It burns clean and meters BETTER (if that is possible) than H-110 and when using with jacketed slugs it has the benefit of the copper fouling eraser. Hope this info helps, Bill

[Michael J. Spangler]

Just received some info back from Callahan Mciver at Hodgdon Powder. The following is from a 10" test barrel using the 700 gr. hardcast loaded to 2.250".
The first test was 25.0 grs. of H-110 which is our standard loading and it gave 1,151 fps at 42,500 psi. and a ES of 11 fps
The second test was with CFE BLK loaded to 34.0 grs. and it gave 1,225 fps at 39,700 psi and a ES of 16 fps.
*** It should be noted that when I used a S&W 500 with the 8 3/8" barrel 32.0 grs. of CFE BLK showed a flattening of the primers this was with a c.o.l of 2.298". So if you are inclined to work your way up to 34.0 grs. of CFE BLK do so in very gradual increments.
Callahan also stated that the 34.0 grs. of CFE BLK was at 100% load density at the 2.250" c.o.l and we have found that 35.0 grs. at 2.298" starts to compress the powder.
All brass used was Starline with Winchester Large Rifle Primers.
Given the other uses for CFE BLK in other calibers I think this is one powder I will always keep on hand. It burns clean and meters BETTER (if that is possible) than H-110 and when using with jacketed slugs it has the benefit of the copper fouling eraser. Hope this info helps, Bill



Awesome info thank you.
Does Hodgdon usually test loads for individuals ?
I’ve been dying to play with CFE BLK in 45/70 and other cartridges. I wish quick loads had a powder prodfile for this powder!

[Cannon Man]

Michael,
Check your e-mail

[Warhawk]

Any updates on CFE BLK loads in the .500?

I'm looking to load 400 and 450 grain bullets to 1000-1100 fps

[John Ross]

Any updates on CFE BLK loads in the .500?

I'm looking to load 400 and 450 grain bullets to 1000-1100 fps

Based on Hodgdon data with 400-500 grain slugs, doing a little interpolating, and realizing that Hodgdon tests in a closed breech 10" barrel, I'd suggest trying 31-33 grains of CFE BLK, if using Cartridge OAL around 2.005" and 5-6 grains more if loading to 2.300" OAL. Pressures should be 20,000 to 30,000 PSI, depending.

Hodgdon lists data for subsonic loads in the .300 Blackout with CFE BLK and pressures as low as 11,400 PSI, so apparently this powder doesn't give squibs like H110 or 296 when loaded down.

JR

[frank505]

41grains of CFEBlack, 450Keith gas check, WLR, Starline case ran 1100 out of my four inch. Nice load and looked up the numbers
1112 high 1046 low 1086 ave es 66 sd 24

[Andy_P]

It's nice to see people "thinking outside the box" a bit concerning fast rifle powders in magnum handgun cartridges. I've done that in the 500 S&W with a 700 gr bullet:

Here are some loads I used in my NEF Handi-Rifle in 500 S&W with the MiHec 700gr:

OAL 2.575"

IMR4198 - 40.0 grs (full) - 1450 fps
BLC-(2) - 48.0 grs (full) - 1200 fps

My experience has been that you can use a full case of IMR or H4198 and any powder slower, with bullets up to 700 grs. I wouldn't go any slower than powders in the BLC-(2) - Varget range. I use a magnum primer only with the ball powders.

CFE BLK being slightly faster than the 4198's, it would be useful in the 500 S&W for all bullet weights - likely close to a full case over a magnum primer (if needed) for the 700 gr (~ 40.0-44.0 grs)

It shows well in the 500 gr and might be a front-runner with the 700 gr - I sold the gun so I can't do the testing myself.

[500aquasteve]

I have had unsatisfactory results with the CFE BLK and I suspect it is due to the short 3.3" barrel. Published loads were compressed with cramming 53 gr in there and first off this powder didn't compress at all, was like trying to seat the bullet in cured concrete. The velocities I achieved were consistently well over 150fps slower than the published comparable H110 loads. I even had better velocities using 4759 loads with similar case fill to CFEBLK. As far as accuracy is concerned I unfortunately did not have the environment to add that element to produce any standardized results as this was at a busy public range, just setting up the chrono between firing with a target behind was enough.

Nevertheless, the pound of the stuff I have leftover will probably last a long time.