Cast HBWC vs swaged

[Dpmsman]

Last summer I purchased one of MiHec's H&G 50 HBWC molds. I cast a couple hundred boolits loaded a few over a small amount of Bullseye and went to the back yard to test them. Preliminary testing was done at 15 yards with an old officer's model target rested on sandbags. Groups hovered around 2 1/2". Nothing to write home about. So I pulled out some S&B factory WC ammo. Groups dropped to <1". Just wondering if others had results simular to mine.

[nicholst55]

I would think that you would have to use very soft lead - nearly pure, in order to get the skirt to obturate and engage the rifling, as designed, in a low-pressure load. Not saying that's necessarily the issue with your situation; that's just me speculating.

[vzerone]

See if you can recover a bullet undamage to see if the skirt obturates to the bore and groove. You alloy may be a little on the hard side. If they didn't obturate and the alloy is a little hard, up your load a little and keep checking what your groups do.

[40-82 hiker]

I would think that you would have to use very soft lead - nearly pure, in order to get the skirt to obturate and engage the rifling, as designed, in a low-pressure load. Not saying that's necessarily the issue with your situation; that's just me speculating.

^^^^^^ +1

I cast HG #50 with pure lead or SOWW with 2% tin. You did not say your alloy, but with the HBWC you will really need soft, and low pressure so you don't blow the base out.

[Forrest r]

How did you lube your hbwc's?

Couldn't even begin to count how many h&g #50's plain base and bevel base from 6 and 10 cavity molds I shot over the decades. Didn't matter what the alloy was, plain lead to lino-type. The wc's wouldn't group if I lubed all 3 lube grooves. I would lube the bottom 2 lube grooves only and they'd shoot bugholes. Now I powder coat them and they shoot bugholes.

[stubshaft]

How did you lube your hbwc's?

Couldn't even begin to count how many h&g #50's plain base and bevel base from 6 and 10 cavity molds I shot over the decades. Didn't matter what the alloy was, plain lead to lino-type. The wc's wouldn't group if I lubed all 3 lube grooves. I would lube the bottom 2 lube grooves only and they'd shoot bugholes. Now I powder coat them and they shoot bugholes.

It seems counter intuitive but less is more with WC's.

[dubber123]

I, after resisting for many years started filling less grooves, and I'll be darned if groups didn't get noticeably better. I only lube the bottom groove now, even at fairly high velocity, (for wadcutters), 900 fps.

[Dpmsman]

My alloy is stick on ww plus 2% tin. I'm using a home brew soft lube I found on youtube consisting of beeswax paraffin wax STP motor treatment and Vaseline. I pan lube the bottom to grooves.

[Three-Fifty-Seven]

..oo.

[Forrest r]

I have 10 different hb molds that I cast for right now, was 20+ been thinning the herd. I've always used range scrap lead 8bhn/9bhn and water dropped them to keep the bases from deforming when they are dropped from the mold. Water dropping the hb bullets makes them around 12bhn.

Your alloy should be around 8bhn/9bhn. You never said what load you're trying or what expander you're using to get the hbwc's to fit into the cases.

These are the last wc/hbwc's I cast/shot in the 35cal's. I've since sold 3 of the molds off (all the pc'd/coated bullets).
https://i.imgur.com/ki5K2Md.jpg

I do like the Mihec hbwc bullets and cast hbwc's for the 32cal's/35cal's/44cal's/45cal's.
https://i.imgur.com/SjlOrXC.jpg

It's the softer hbwc's that you have to worry about blowing the skirts off of. I've ran the 35cal hbwc's pictured above in 1000+fps loads and the 44cal's over 1200fps. No issues with the skirts. I'm planning on putting those 32cal hbwc's up against a plain button nosed wc in a 308w. Going to start the loads out at a mild 1600fps and work the bullets up until accuracy falls off. I know this is a target 38spl thread, just putting out there what water dropped range scrap hbwc's can do compared to their air cooled counterparts.
https://i.imgur.com/fo57jjU.jpg

All loads were in the +/- 20,000psi range
The upper left is a air cooled keith 429422 hb swc that I hp'd using a hp tool. The upper right was a water dropped hbwc turned backwards to make a huge hp. I've used that load/bullet before and was using it as a control for the chronograph. As you can see the bullet cracked instead of expanding. This is what the same bullet looks like when it's air cooled, same alloy/load just air cooled.
https://i.imgur.com/x9A4Siv.jpg

The bullet on the bottom right was water dropped also. I had cast some of those hb fn bullets up with a 4 to 1 ratio of range scrap (4) to mono-type (1), 15bhn (air) (22bhn wd). Was casting rifle bullets (single cavity mold) and just grabbed that mold to use while waiting for the rifle mold to cool, pour 1 and then dump the other. Anyway, I also cast some air cooled range scrap for that test above and ended up grabbing the wrong bullets. Those bottom right bullet hb bullets were so hard that bullet laying sideways in the picture above was recovered after going thru 12"+ of tighty bundled wetpack (newspapers) that had been soaked in water for 24 hours.

The only thing I found that can hurt the accuracy of a cast hb bullet is a deformed bullet or a bad/wrong load. These hbwc's are long bodied and need a long expander to expand the cases where it counts the most, namely where the base of those long hbwc's sits.
A lyman m-die expander.
https://i.imgur.com/vnmkz9e.jpg
I use a m-die for my 38spl/357 cast bullets. A 45cal m-die expander next to a factory expander.
https://i.imgur.com/AtiYtlr.jpg

If you have a h&g #50 mold cast some bullets and size/lube them the same way you're doing the hbwc's. Use the same load and load up 20 of each. If your wc's are accurate and the hbwc's are not, that's telling you you are doing something to the bullet in the reloading process.

Not trying to tell anyone what to do but I will tell you what I do.
I cast the hbwc's and water drop them. I powder coat them and run them thru a push thru sizer. I use a expander made for the longer/larger cast bullets on all my cases. I've burned 1000's of hbwc's this way without any issues. It's nothing to hit dimes @ 50ft with this pistol/cast hbcw combo.
https://i.imgur.com/k2b51Hx.jpg

Keep testing and trying. It's got to be something simple.

[Mr_Sheesh]

Three-Fifty-Seven: "And ... what size are the troublemakers?" Talked with a few people on here & we all vary in size :p

Looking at molds so I will ask; Do you folks see better accuracy in HBWCs over DEWCs? Since I plan to get that plinker 39 Spl., I started wandering. Starting off with DEWCs but once I start casting my own, if I can improve things, hmm :) I usually just fired Keith bullets in the past - which works, but uses more lead than a WC.

[tazman]

Personally, I get the same accuracy with solid wadcutters of any nose shape as I do with cast hollow base wadcutters. I now cast the Lyman 358091 which is a bevel base since it loads into the cases easier.
I haven't purchased swaged wadcutters in years. I doubt I am a good enough shot to tell the difference anyway.

[dverna]

Three-Fifty-Seven: "And ... what size are the troublemakers?" Talked with a few people on here & we all vary in size :p

Looking at molds so I will ask; Do you folks see better accuracy in HBWCs over DEWCs? Since I plan to get that plinker 39 Spl., I started wandering. Starting off with DEWCs but once I start casting my own, if I can improve things, hmm :) I usually just fired Keith bullets in the past - which works, but uses more lead than a WC.

My best accuracy was with commercial 148 gr HBWC bullets from Remington. These are swaged bullets. My cast #50 H&G bullets would group about 3/4 inch larger at 50 yards.

[fecmech]

My best accuracy was with commercial 148 gr HBWC bullets from Remington. These are swaged bullets. My cast #50 H&G bullets would group about 3/4 inch larger at 50 yards.
I get pretty much the same results. I did some testing a while back firing 6 shot groups at 50 yds changing targets for every group but keeping the same backer for each 4 group series. I too only lube 1 groove.
1. H&G #50/3.1/Bullseye--4 6 shot groups average 2.5" ea. Composite for 24 shots=3.375"
2. Remington HBWC/2.8/Bullseye--4 6 shot groups avg-2.0" Composite for 24 shots=2.5"

[Thumbcocker]

A friend of mine had a devil of a time getting reloaded .32 wadcutters to shoot in free pistol. Finally they measured a pulled boolit and found the case was sizing them down. When they loaded the boolits in unsized cases they got accuracy equal to factory loads.