Shot In A Rifle Cartridge? Gun Show find...

[Kev18]

So I bought a bunch of 40-82 ammo from a gun show a couple years ago. All of the ammo looks normal except for one. (I tried adding a photo but it says that the upload failed. I dont know why?) Anyways, the cartridge looks like a blank. it doesn't have any bullet in it. Just a piece of paper, like one resembling a shot card on an old 12 gauge brass shell. I asked the guy if it was a blank and he said it wasn't. Here's where I get iffy. He said its loaded with small shot (Like a shotgun). When he told me, I said that it seemed odd. In shotguns you can shoot slugs and shot out of a smooth bore but not out a rifled barrel. You can but it might mess up the rifling. He assured me that people used those to kill snakes if need be. has anyone ever heard of anything like this?

Also all the ammo, including the one "shot cartridge" mentioned above is W.R.A.CO stamped except for a Soft point thats Remington.

P.S If anyone could just tell me why Im having a hard time getting pictures on here, it would be greatly appreciated. Thanks!

[Nueces]

I've read that such shot rounds were loaded for military foragers and, of course, anyone could have loaded shot back in the day.

As for your photo problem, this site does not allow direct uploads of photos. Ya gotta host the photo somewhere (not your computer) and link to it in a post. There are instructions in one of the stickies up top.

When you get that straightened out, I sure would like to see pix of that ammo!

[Kev18]

Here are some pics.

See what I mean with the "blank looking cartridge"?
https://i.imgur.com/uqljQwO.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/hq7ikcF.jpg

[Earlwb]

Yes they made shot shells for rifle cartridges. The first I saw was for the 45-70 cartridges used by the Army way back then. They would send out foragers to get food for the troops. They used the shot shells on small game at close range. The 45-70 shotshell used a thin wood sabot that looked like a bullet, but was filled with shot. The sabot tended to come apart in the rifling and helped keep the shot together for a better shot pattern.
ref http://www.mcpheetersantiquemilitaria.com/06_ammunition/06_item_058.htm

[Kev18]

Thanks! I dont have wood on mine, but atleast now I know !

[HangFireW8]

Lead shot will not "mess up the rifling", any more than a lead boolit will. Commercially loaded shotshells have been available, for 22LR and various handgun/lever cartridges, off and on for decades.

The issue is not what the shot will do to the rifling, but the other way around. Rifling causes the pattern to "blow out." If you pattern it against some large paper, you'll get a ring with very little in the middle... and the ring won't be that even.

For very short range against a snake, that'll work.

[Nueces]

Kev, you got the photo hosting just right, the snag being that photo bucket (rhymes with Nantucket) has begun charging users to allow hosting for access to other sites. I'm in the same boat, have not yet moved to another site. There are threads herein discussing alternatives.

[Kev18]

Lead shot will not "mess up the rifling", any more than a lead boolit will. Commercially loaded shotshells have been available, for 22LR and various handgun/lever cartridges, off and on for decades.

The issue is not what the shot will do to the rifling, but the other way around. Rifling causes the pattern to "blow out." If you pattern it against some large paper, you'll get a ring with very little in the middle... and the ring won't be that even.

For very short range against a snake, that'll work.



Thanks, do you know what shot they loaded in there? Just standard bird shot?

[Kev18]

Kev, you got the photo hosting just right, the snag being that photo bucket (rhymes with Nantucket) has begun charging users to allow hosting for access to other sites. I'm in the same boat, have not yet moved to another site. There are threads herein discussing alternatives.

I used Imgur and re-uploaded the pictures. Can you guyy see them now? I can.

[Nueces]

I used Imgur and re-uploaded the pictures. Can you guyy see them now? I can.

Yes! Thanks for sussing that out, I may do the same.

That nice roll crimp on the shot round speaks of a factory loading.

[jrmartin1964]

FWIW, the .40-82 shot loading first appeared in W.R.A.Co.'s catalog for 1898, and was last offered in their catalog for 1916.

Jim

[HangFireW8]

Sorry, don't know what size shot, I'm not a 40-82 expert. I've played with a few more common ones (357/38, 45 Colt, 22LR) and wasn't that impressed.

[TAC14]

Contrary to the earlier post you don't need a pic hosting site to upload here.

Except in PMs you can upload any pic on your computer.

For example:

210158

[Earlwb]

Thanks, do you know what shot they loaded in there? Just standard bird shot?

They used #8 or #9 shot. Short range, so you don't want to mangle the game much.

[Kev18]

They used #8 or #9 shot. Short range, so you don't want to mangle the game much.

What would they hunt though? I have old .22 shot shells and Ive been told people used to, and still do use them for clearing rats out of them house. If its not accurate at long ranges I dont see how it could be effective? Unless you sneak up on a rabbit or squirrel.

[Earlwb]

The rifle/handgun shotshell cartridges are intended for vermin, such as rats, mice, snakes, large insects and such. The modern ones use a plastic cap similar to the old wooden caps on the .45-70 rounds. The plastic cap sort of acts as a sabot and tends to help keep the shot together more. But you need to run a pattern test and see what kind of range you get with your particular gun.

As I remember when I tried some .22 Long Rifle shot shells with a crimped end on them, the range was about 5 to 6 feet (maybe 10 feet if you are lucky) before the shot pattern got spread out too much. The plastic cap modern version of the .22 LR shot shells may have more range to them though. But I haven't tried shooting any of them yet.

Now with a .22 LR rifle you could almost touch the barrel end to the head of a rattlesnake before you shot it. I don't remember too many rattlesnakes wanting to stand their ground though. They usually were doing their best to skedaddle away.

Way back in the old western days, the Army Foragers would try to sneak in close on small game to shoot them. The 45-70 shot shells were similar to shooting a .410 shotgun. But the range was limited though.

[Kev18]

The rifle/handgun shotshell cartridges are intended for vermin, such as rats, mice, snakes, large insects and such. The modern ones use a plastic cap similar to the old wooden caps on the .45-70 rounds. The plastic cap sort of acts as a sabot and tends to help keep the shot together more. But you need to run a pattern test and see what kind of range you get with your particular gun.

As I remember when I tried some .22 Long Rifle shot shells with a crimped end on them, the range was about 5 to 6 feet (maybe 10 feet if you are lucky) before the shot pattern got spread out too much. The plastic cap modern version of the .22 LR shot shells may have more range to them though. But I haven't tried shooting any of them yet.

Now with a .22 LR rifle you could almost touch the barrel end to the head of a rattlesnake before you shot it. I don't remember too many rattlesnakes wanting to stand their ground though. They usually were doing their best to skedaddle away.

Way back in the old western days, the Army Foragers would try to sneak in close on small game to shoot them. The 45-70 shot shells were similar to shooting a .410 shotgun. But the range was limited though.

Alright, so technically if I would get some small shot, I could load some... Except im not sure what powder to use. For a 260gr lead boolit I use 3031 but I dont think its the same for shot?

[Nueces]

Alright, so technically if I would get some small shot, I could load some... Except im not sure what powder to use. For a 260gr lead boolit I use 3031 but I dont think its the same for shot?

Powder variety is now embarrassingly huge. Unique used to be recommended for small bore shotshells (back when Bullseye, Unique and 2400 were all a man needed) and would still be a good choice.

[salpal48]

That cartridge Is Just a 40/82 shot Made for lever action rifles. Paper sabots will not work in the mags wood was Unreliable for the same reason.
The companies all made shot and blank for all cartridge. . Unlike today many people Only had 1 rifle and used it for everything

[Earlwb]

Alright, so technically if I would get some small shot, I could load some... Except im not sure what powder to use. For a 260gr lead boolit I use 3031 but I dont think its the same for shot?

You would use one of the fast burning shotgun propellants. You can usually find reloading data for shotshells for most any caliber on the internet. Pistol rounds generally need a capsule of some type. Rifle rounds can contain the shot within without any difficulty. You basically load the shotshell cartridge the same way you do a shotgun shell. Case, propellant charge, a wad and spacer, the shot and a paper cap. The lip of the case is curled over enough to keep the cap in place. As mentioned, Bullseye, Red Dot, Unique, 2400 and some others are all used for propellant. Faster pistol propellants would work too.

Now if you could get a longer case that you can size down, you can have the end protruding like a bullet and crimp it to hold the shot in place. Sort of like what some of the old blanks do.

Here is a example:
for .45 ACP:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6LC4_UZfJZE

Oh yeah, I ran across a article on Wikipedia about "rat-shot" too.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rat-shot

[Kev18]

You would use one of the fast burning shotgun propellants. You can usually find reloading data for shotshells for most any caliber on the internet. Pistol rounds generally need a capsule of some type. Rifle rounds can contain the shot within without any difficulty. You basically load the shotshell cartridge the same way you do a shotgun shell. Case, propellant charge, a wad and spacer, the shot and a paper cap. The lip of the case is curled over enough to keep the cap in place. As mentioned, Bullseye, Red Dot, Unique, 2400 and some others are all used for propellant. Faster pistol propellants would work too.

Now if you could get a longer case that you can size down, you can have the end protruding like a bullet and crimp it to hold the shot in place. Sort of like what some of the old blanks do.

Here is a example:
for .45 ACP:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6LC4_UZfJZE

Oh yeah, I ran across a article on Wikipedia about "rat-shot" too.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rat-shot


I have Hodgdon International powder for my shotshells, but my issue is that its for 40-82 in a Winchester 1886, that was made in 1889. So Im not sure if the modern fast burning powder will blow up the gun?

[Kev18]

You would use one of the fast burning shotgun propellants. You can usually find reloading data for shotshells for most any caliber on the internet. Pistol rounds generally need a capsule of some type. Rifle rounds can contain the shot within without any difficulty. You basically load the shotshell cartridge the same way you do a shotgun shell. Case, propellant charge, a wad and spacer, the shot and a paper cap. The lip of the case is curled over enough to keep the cap in place. As mentioned, Bullseye, Red Dot, Unique, 2400 and some others are all used for propellant. Faster pistol propellants would work too.

Now if you could get a longer case that you can size down, you can have the end protruding like a bullet and crimp it to hold the shot in place. Sort of like what some of the old blanks do.

Here is a example:
for .45 ACP:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6LC4_UZfJZE

Oh yeah, I ran across a article on Wikipedia about "rat-shot" too.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rat-shot


Well my rifle is a WInchester 40-82 1886, made in 1889. So im not sure fast burning powders will work?

[Earlwb]

Good point. I would suggest using a black powder charge for the 40-82. Maybe using the load data for a old black powder .410 bore shotshell load would work.

[Kev18]

Ah, good idea. I have 2f goex and pyrodex. Il see where I could by shot now. :)

[jessdigs]

As for the photo problem, and photo bucket, I just use Tapatalk. Tapatalk is free, the as free is $2, and they host photos for free and make it really easy to browse the forum and upload photos to the forum on one convenient app. You can also Browse all the forums in the same app, and do it all from your phone. Here is a pic I took while typing.https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180114/30a58f1be907b7ad8645a5cc027cc0e9.jpg

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk

[TNsailorman]

I used to see similar cartridges at gun shows years ago but never had any interest in some so never bothered to buy one. Back in the day they had what was called a "forage gun" and loaded ammo like your cartridge for them. They were for small game. Some research on the old Army manuals and books just might turn up some data on them. Might want to "google" forage guns also. james

[Wayne Smith]

I upload pictures directly from my computer. The problem with my camera is that they are way too big for the site to upload. Go to your Paint program and reduce them 25% and they load fine. Or rather, in the resize box I put in 25 and that is adequate. I don't know if it resizes them 25% or 75%, but they load after doing this.

[Soundguy]

In old 45-70, from the 1890's I've pulled down, I've found round ball on top of a full column of black. Some other old ones had the balloon primer pockets.

[Kev18]

I'm considering loading up these shot shell cartridges considering I bought browning 12 gauge ammo and it has 8 shot I could salvage in it. But does anyone think a standard. 410 shell would work in there, I might need to load it with BP though.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

Weight and balance should tell you if it is a shot cartridge or blank. A modern case is likely to be heavier than those old ones, but not enough to conceal a missing shot charge.

There were US army foraging trapdoor Springfields, but probably not many, and it is common practice in the antique gun trade to describe every kind of smoothbored military rifle as a military forager, even though most are conversions for the surplus market. For the 44-40 shotshell purpose made smoothbores like the Marble Game Getter or H&R shotguns were fairly common. But I never heard of any smoothbore .40-82s, or military rifles in that chambering.

A lot of muzzle-loading Enfields and its Snider breechloading conversion were smoothbored for the Indian Army, and it is sometimes thought that it was to keep them less dangerous than white troops, in case of another Great Mutiny. But that certainly didn't apply to the Lee-Enfields for a special .410 cartridge. I don't think there was ever a time when rifles weren't common issue, or British officers wouldn't rather be shot at by Russians, Germans or Japanese. They were used for riot control or sentry duty which was hoped to be non-lethal. On the Border rifle thief was an honourable profession, not to be confused with dishonesty, and often conducted by blood relatives of serving soldiers, in a society where a good blood-feud was a precious heirloom.

I have a copy of the regulations for the Bengal and Punjab cavalry in 1896. Soldiers going home on leave to the Unadministered Territory or Afghanistan were forbidden to take a rifle, which was like carrying its weight in silver around, but could take a personal "gun" (i.e. smoothbore) or draw one from the armoury.

Gelatine pharmaceutical capsules, available empty on eBay, can be used to make shot capsules for some small calibres. They are designed to dissolve in your internals, so they won't resist damp like the capsules ammunition companies use, but are otherwise very similar.

There are two reasons for rifling to widen a shot pattern, and one of them, deformation of the outlying pellets to produce a fringed of "fliers", is much reduced by any sort of capsule or sleeve. Centrifugal force will also widen the pattern, but probably not in a hollow doughnut if the pellets are small. The nearer the centre of the charge, the tighter the helix in which the pellet is travelling, until those right in the centre are simply spinning on their own axis, which doesn't count. Large buckshot don't permit such a continuous range of positions, so those will form a doughnut pattern, and most of them may be rifling-deformed into the bargain.

I have a French military textbook which illustrates a pattern fired with shot from the 11mm. Gras rifle. No doubt the total spread was much wider than a smoothbore, but it showed that fringe caused by fliers, an almost empty space, and then a cluster of tighter pattern in the centre. But the Gras had particularly deep rifling. W. Milton Farrow, author of the modestly entitled "How I became a Crack Shot", describes a European tour in which the Germans were rule-benders and poor losers, but the French couldn't have been nicer about being outshot. He didn't like the Gras, though, as he called the bore almost square. It must have been particularly bad for deforming pellets.

If you click on "Go Advanced" you will find a "Manage Attachments" button some way below the text box. That will let you upload pictures to the site, reducing their size if they are large, but good enough to display well. I have a maximum of 10mb storage, to which I am now close. So I have to cut down occasionally in "My Account" by removing the more frivolous ones. I don't remember whether you have to do anything special in your account to have this facility.