mechanical problem or technique problem?

[Oklahoma Rebel]

I have noticed when shooting stouter loads ( buck, slugs) in my mossy 500 that if I don't use the push and pull technique ( pushing on the forearm, pulling the gun into your shoulder) which I tend to shoot better with anyways) sometimes the action will come open on recoil. it that from my front arm coming back on recoil and when the shotgun stops, my arm opens the slide? OR COULD THIS BE A MECHANICAL PROBLEM? thanks a lot-Travis

[Moonie]

I've seen that happen with stout loads in pumps of various makes.

[rking22]

I may not be understanding the question, but that is not a problem. That is exactly what should be happening. As soon as the gun begins to recoil the action is released to cycle and a good pump gun shooter will have another chambered and on a second bird fully as quickly as any auto. The Winchestr M12 has a mechanical latch that actually requires the recoil aginst the forward hand tp unlock. That is the only one built that way that I am aware of. All others release on hammerfall, works fine. No one can cycle one before the pressure drops, and I shoot International skeet with one. You gun and you are fine as I read the question.

[W.R.Buchanan]

Yes the bolt lock, which is under the rear of the trigger guard, is held in position (unless tripped by hand) until the hammer drops then it allows the fore end to be cycled.

What you are referring to is called "riding the recoil." It is the fastest way to cycle the action and is a very desirable technique to develop.

The biggest problem Pump Shotgun users have is not cycling the action immediately after the round is discharged everytime. The tendency is to absorb the recoil and then run the gun.

The problem with this is that lots of times you forget to run the gun and get back on target only to find a dead trigger. IE; an unloaded weapon. This requires you to cycle the action and now you are behind the curve, and have to play catch up. In Skeet or 3 gun you just lose points,,,, in combat you might lose your life.

This is critical in shooting doubles in skeet as you have very little time to get on target with a double or semi auto let alone a manually operated action. You end up shooting the second bird when it is nearly even or behind the second house. Optimally you shoot the first bird as soon as you can and the second bird is broke just after it goes past the center of the field. Having to run the action usually results in me getting to the second bird about the time it is even with the second house. That's if everything goes right, I shoot O/Us better as there is nothing to think about but pulling the trigger when on target.

My Ithaca M37 drives me nutz trying to shoot skeet. But it is something I must master in order to run a pump gun efficiently.

In a defensive situation, you are confronting an armed adversary with an unloaded gun. Obviously this in not optimal. So running the gun as soon as you can is the best option. More obvious is the fact that this response must become rote, and done automatically.

By holding some pressure on the fore end to the rear, as soon as the hammer falls the action will release. The idea here is to not have a lot of pressure on the fore end, just enough to take out the slack and start to move the action as quickly after the shot is fired as possible. Usually this is happening during recoil.

It is also imperative that you are leaning into the gun so that the recoil isn't pushing you backwards over your heels. Bout fell on my butt at Front Sight doing a 4 shot string. I was not getting back into position before each shot and progressively got pushed back more each shot, until I almost fell over backwards.

things to think about.

Randy

[Hogtamer]

Shoot a lot and you'll get used to the pump action. back in the day all i shot was a pump and I dern near wore the forearm off a semi auto trying to pump it!

[Oklahoma Rebel]

lol, I got knocked on my but the first time I shot a 20 ga slug from a light single shot. I was shooting from a kneeling position,lol! glad to know this isn't a problem, I am surprised it is kinda the way iit should work. I will do some more practicing! thanks a lot!-Travis

[megasupermagnum]

Yes, all my pump guns do this. My Nova has so many rounds through it, and is so smooth, it will self-eject the strongest shells. If you don't hold it, it can actually eject faster than the shell stop, and you have an empty chamber. My 500 is nice and smooth, and I can shoot that as fast as a semi-auto. 870's do the same thing, but it seems you have to hesitate, else they seem to lock up if you "ride the recoil".

[Oklahoma Rebel]

yes, I fact I do remember a 870 I had that also did this, know that I think about it, the only thing that concerns me is the thought of that bolt slamming into the back of the action, and the wear or damage it might produce, over time, thanks!-Travis

[rking22]

Wont hurt a thing. Pump guns should be cycled like you mean it! I regularly shoot a 1913 M12 that has been hunted with and shot regularly since new. Also a 1921 vintage Rem M 17, really worn but not by the bolt bottoming out. My 870 skeet gun is probably pushing 100000 rounds, just breaking in :) You ain't gonna hurt it in normal use, they are designed for it and last decades plus!

[Oklahoma Rebel]

well, sounds like I need to do some more shooting!!![smilie=p:

[msinc]

well, sounds like I need to do some more shooting!!![smilie=p:

And it also sounds like you might need to get a little more info....this is gonna make a few of you guys mad, buttttttttt.............................pump shotguns ARE NOT supposed to blow themselves open. Period end of story. What this means is if you shoot the gun without touching the forend it should remain locked after you fire it. I understand and I get the whole thing of how you hold it and fire and the recoil coupled with your shooting technique can make it seem like it is automatic and that is not what I am referring to. If you like doing it that way then fine, but I have seen, owned and repaired quite a few shotguns that for mechanical problem related reasons blow themselves open and this is not correct.
Many old Model 12's do it, but they were shot a lot dry and the action bar is worn out. Many Mossberg 500's do it right out of the box brand new and make no mistake, this is a defect.
What's even more amazing is the number of shooters that either think this is correct or don't know the difference. Many years ago I got my very first Model 12. It was an old worn out 12 gauge that not only blew itself open, it threw the empty about 20 feet no matter how tight I tried to hold it closed. I went on another "shotgun" forum and asked what the problem was. I got 26 replies....13 said, "not a problem, they all do that" and 13 said, "nope, not supposed to do that." Of course, every last one of them had to first tell me that if you hold the trigger and pump it it will fire automatically.
Bottom line, unlocking by recoil and the technique of how you hold it is one thing, setting it on a rest and having it unlock when fired minus the "technique" is a mechanical problem with the gun and it should be fixed. I will go one step further and say that if you choose to use the recoil/hold method to "work the gun faster" you will wear it out faster too, so make sure you keep plenty of lube on the locking lugs and action bar.

[Oklahoma Rebel]

so, how should I hold my gun to see if I am causing this or if it is a defect? should I hold the forearm like a rifle, just firm? or should I be pushing a bit? ( I have heard of this push-pull technique somewere, it does help with recoil, and slug accuracy it seems also. by push- pull I mean pushing forward on the forearm and also pulling the shotgun into your shoulder with your right hand,. doing this, it never comes open, so I was thinking that while holding the forearm loosely, recoil would first jerk back, making my left hand push forwards just a bit ( or rather, staying still while the gun moves back quickly, which might be what unlocks it, then as the recoil stops, the weight of my forarm coming back causes the slide to come back as well, opening the action. does this make sense to you? and how can I tell if it isn't me? maybe shooting it with my forearm on the mag tube just in front of the slide? then I would know for sure it IS the gun, but I will wait to try that, till I get a response,MSINC, would be interested in your response. ( I do know what I do is ultimately my decision and I am liable for any injury or damage.....) lol sad I have to say that nowadays.... thanks -Travis

[Hogtamer]

Think of it like this...hand on the forearm naturally, not a death grip. At the shot recoil naturally punches you back to some degree, more on heavy loads. The action HAS to unlock or you couldn'tpump it. It's helping you do the work already, just finish the job. Get it all in sync and your natural movement back to original shooting position also helps jack the next shell in and you're ready. Don't overthink it and you might worry about the slide bar after 20k rounds or so.

[rking22]

They definitely should not eject on their own! Trying to diagnose without shooting it or watching you shoot it is ??? If you stand and shoot the gun with your lead hand holding the foreend but your index finger over the mag cap you will find out what is happening. Roll with the recoil and see what your left hand feels, foreend should stay shut by itself. Your finger is reming you not to pull back. M12s should not even unlock if you are pulling back on the foreend, if the fall open on the hammer drop they are dangerously worn. As far a a Mossberg, I don't have one to look , but the foreend should have to retract 3/4 inch or so to unlock the breach. Unload the gun and slowly retract the foreend while watching the bolt, you should see how it unlocks and this can help you get your head arround what is happening. This can happen if the gun begins to move in recoil and is stopped with the foreend free to continue rearward. I seriously doubt you have worn the gun to the extent that the locking surfaces "bypass" and let the pressure open the action. Definately can happen and could be a defect from the factory???? Again, I don't have ANY experience with Mossberg's, mainly REM, M12, and M37s. I always check the lockup before buying old ones like I like, many 50year old pumpguns were used and abused. As stated by msinc, don't pull back with your lead hand until you feel recoil. That is not the way they are designed to cycle, a m12 will not even unlock with rearward pressure, it is designed to unlatch with a forward movement of the slide. That is automatic if you are using your lead hand to actively point the target, designed that way in a time of frequent hang fires. Find an "old pumpgun guy" and shoot with him, chances he can help you a bunch. Most skeet clubs they can be found on the porch :)

[msinc]

so, how should I hold my gun to see if I am causing this or if it is a defect? should I hold the forearm like a rifle, just firm? or should I be pushing a bit? ( I have heard of this push-pull technique somewere, it does help with recoil, and slug accuracy it seems also. by push- pull I mean pushing forward on the forearm and also pulling the shotgun into your shoulder with your right hand,. doing this, it never comes open, so I was thinking that while holding the forearm loosely, recoil would first jerk back, making my left hand push forwards just a bit ( or rather, staying still while the gun moves back quickly, which might be what unlocks it, then as the recoil stops, the weight of my forarm coming back causes the slide to come back as well, opening the action. does this make sense to you? and how can I tell if it isn't me? maybe shooting it with my forearm on the mag tube just in front of the slide? then I would know for sure it IS the gun, but I will wait to try that, till I get a response,MSINC, would be interested in your response. ( I do know what I do is ultimately my decision and I am liable for any injury or damage.....) lol sad I have to say that nowadays.... thanks -Travis

Pretty easy, so pump guns {even pump rifles} have a "bolt latch" which is sometimes called by other names {release}. For our purposes here it is just a latch that holds the bolt locked until the pressure is released on it. It can be released two ways, by moving the forend slightly forward after firing the gun or by pushing in on the release. There are basically two different defects that can happen. Here is how to tell which is happening; if it is wear in the bolt locking mechanism usually you can only get the gun to blow itself open when it is fired. If the problem is in the bolt latch device itself it will generally unlock and let the forend move back a little if you just point the gun straight up in the air and dry fire it. I have seen many Mossberg 500's do this right out of the box and it is not correct. Another test you can try is to cycle the action {pump it} empty of course and pull back hard on the forend toward you and dry fire the gun. It should not unlock and let you pump the gun again. It should remain locked and only unlock when you relax pressure on the forend and move it forward slightly. This pretty much covers the mechanical related issues.
What the guys were describing as the "method" that you can learn is different and although it could be confused with a problem it really is not. If you hold some forward pressure on the forend and fire the gun it will recoil and pull your forend hand back under inertia. When the recoil is over that hand will automatically move forward enough to unlock the action because you had that forward pressure already. Then you can go ahead and cycle the action. In practice you will get used to it happening and it becomes second nature. In fact, you will find that once you get used to doing it you really don't need pressure forward on the forend. It is confusing because unless you know how to test for a problem it is hard to know if you are just used to doing it and are maybe a natural at it or if there really is a problem.
So, really there are a possible three things that could be going on...the gun is fine and you just happen to be able to work it naturally, the latch is defective or out of order and unlocking by itself after the gun is fired {which will show itself by firing the gun with no hand on the forend}, or the bolt locking mechanism is worn out and the gun uncontrollably blows itself open {you will have no problem figuring out this one because it is a little scary}. I know all this can be confusing. If you have any questions don't hesitate to ask. The absolute best advice I can give anyone with a pump gun is never ever ever shoot it dry. It must be properly lubricated or you will wear the gun out prematurely. One of the biggest fallacies in the shooting world is the old saying, "you cant wear a Model 12 out, the more you shoot them the tighter they get!!!" Yeah, okay....try it.

[Oklahoma Rebel]

ok... good, I checked it by dry firing it with rear pressure on the slide, and it didn't open until I put forward pressure on it, in fact I would guess it took a couple pounds of forward pressure to do it. so I think I am in the clear, and it is just momentum and the laws of physics causing me to unknowingly unlock it during recoil. and when it did happen, the shells landed 4 feet or so from my feet, so I don't think that it "flew" open upon firing, especially since you mentioned some launching shells 20ft! thanks for the knowledgeable info. big relief!-Travis

[centershot]

Hmmm........I just checked my old 870, it unlocks by applying backward pressure as the trigger is pulled. Do I have a problem or is this normal for an 870?

[Cap'n Morgan]

I have shot a lot of different pumps - including a Remington 1100 I modified to work as a pump gun after the magazine tube broke. The only one who ever gave me trouble was an old Stevens which would momentarily lock the forearm if it was under rearward pressure when the gun was fired. You had to "release" the forearm to free it making it awkward to cycle the gun smoothly.

Most pump guns will eject the empty shell when shot single handed from the hip. This is perfectly normal, and is caused by inertia driving the forearm back. Pulling the trigger will only release the forearm, the forearm can then move and release the bolt in that order.

The latch on a pump gun only serves a lock to keep the forearm from moving and thereby open the action. At first I thought I could do without the latch when I modified my 1100, but in hunting situations I would sometimes pull the forearm before the trigger, resulting in the ejection of a loaded round :oops:

[rking22]

Centerrshot, gentle fingertip pressure rearward, mine unlock. Put more pressure and they will not release. The rearward pressure is a causing additional friction on the slide latch and binding it from lowering, gentle rearward pressure is not enough friction to overcome the retraction. Flipn the 870 upside down, press down the carrier. Now operate the release lever an watch just in front of the release lever on the right side of the opening. That's the slide latch, now check that it empty again, and dry fire watching the latch. Enough rearward pressure will bind it. The M12 has an actual component requiring forward movement, it and any copies, are the only ones I know of that have that design element. 870 and 37 only require not binding it, and as msinc stated, rearward pressure when firing causes abnormal wear. Also leads to less success on connecting with the shot and smooth transition the the next bird..

[Oklahoma Rebel]

yeah.. the thought of the weight of the whole slide mechanism sliding back while you fire it , like one said, with one hand from the hip, scares the **** out of me, that's a lot of inertia when it comes to a sudden stop, and cannot be good for it.

[Oklahoma Rebel]

[QUOTE=Cap'n Morgan;4239889]

Most pump guns will eject the empty shell when shot single handed from the hip. This is perfectly normal, and is caused by inertia driving the forearm back.

[centershot]

Centerrshot, gentle fingertip pressure rearward, mine unlock. Put more pressure and they will not release. The rearward pressure is a causing additional friction on the slide latch and binding it from lowering, gentle rearward pressure is not enough friction to overcome the retraction. Flipn the 870 upside down, press down the carrier. Now operate the release lever an watch just in front of the release lever on the right side of the opening. That's the slide latch, now check that it empty again, and dry fire watching the latch. Enough rearward pressure will bind it. The M12 has an actual component requiring forward movement, it and any copies, are the only ones I know of that have that design element. 870 and 37 only require not binding it, and as msinc stated, rearward pressure when firing causes abnormal wear. Also leads to less success on connecting with the shot and smooth transition the the next bird..

rking23, Thank you! All is well! May God rest ye merry, gentlemen!

[AllanD]

I have noticed when shooting stouter loads ( buck, slugs) in my mossy 500 that if I don't use the push and pull technique ( pushing on the forearm, pulling the gun into your shoulder) which I tend to shoot better with anyways) sometimes the action will come open on recoil. it that from my front arm coming back on recoil and when the shotgun stops, my arm opens the slide? OR COULD THIS BE A MECHANICAL PROBLEM? thanks a lot-Travis


I can honestly say I've personally had this happen not thousands of times, but tens of thousand of time at the trap range, shooting 1-1/8oz target loads in both my Mossberg 500 and my Remington 870.

In reaction I developed a habit to release the stock with my right hand and hold the shotgun against my shoulder with my left on the now unlocked forearm this caused the action to open briskly and eject the empty, which my right hand was free to catch the empty and put it into my shot-shell pouch. I got rather good at it, but going through two cases of shot-shells a week for the better part of a decade gives you lots of practice! I still have 20gallon cans filled with empties though I haven't shot a round of trap since about 1990...

[megasupermagnum]

And it also sounds like you might need to get a little more info....this is gonna make a few of you guys mad, buttttttttt.............................pump shotguns ARE NOT supposed to blow themselves open. Period end of story. What this means is if you shoot the gun without touching the forend it should remain locked after you fire it. I understand and I get the whole thing of how you hold it and fire and the recoil coupled with your shooting technique can make it seem like it is automatic and that is not what I am referring to. If you like doing it that way then fine, but I have seen, owned and repaired quite a few shotguns that for mechanical problem related reasons blow themselves open and this is not correct.
Many old Model 12's do it, but they were shot a lot dry and the action bar is worn out. Many Mossberg 500's do it right out of the box brand new and make no mistake, this is a defect.
What's even more amazing is the number of shooters that either think this is correct or don't know the difference. Many years ago I got my very first Model 12. It was an old worn out 12 gauge that not only blew itself open, it threw the empty about 20 feet no matter how tight I tried to hold it closed. I went on another "shotgun" forum and asked what the problem was. I got 26 replies....13 said, "not a problem, they all do that" and 13 said, "nope, not supposed to do that." Of course, every last one of them had to first tell me that if you hold the trigger and pump it it will fire automatically.
Bottom line, unlocking by recoil and the technique of how you hold it is one thing, setting it on a rest and having it unlock when fired minus the "technique" is a mechanical problem with the gun and it should be fixed. I will go one step further and say that if you choose to use the recoil/hold method to "work the gun faster" you will wear it out faster too, so make sure you keep plenty of lube on the locking lugs and action bar.

It wouldn't be normal to eject a 1 1/8 oz target load 20', but full power power loads do open the action. If you just shot it one handed, nearly all 3 1/2" loads will self eject. Unless every single pump gun I've ever been around has been broken, self ejecting is normal in full power ammo.

[Oklahoma Rebel]

hmmmm... either way, it still seems scary to me

[megasupermagnum]

Why? Is your's actually slamming open, and throwing shells many feet? When I talk self ejecting, full power 3" loads open the gun most of the way, some barely eject. heavy 3 1/2" shells will normally self-eject but only fall just just out of the gun. This is if you are not touching the forend at all.

[W.R.Buchanan]

Are you sure you are not tripping the bolt release with your middle finger? Pretty easy to do on a M500.

Randy

[Oklahoma Rebel]

no, we figured out it was the weight of my forearm on the slide causing it to unlock under recoil, if I dry fire it with it pointed up it stays locked, and indeed does need a bit of forward pressure on the slide to unlock it before I can cycle it. that points to it being mechanically ok, although I have not fired it with no hand on the slide, I will but I anticipate that it will stay closed, if it does open, I will have it checked out, because I do not believe they were "designed to self eject" otherwise, they would be called semi auto's.-Travis

[Oklahoma Rebel]

so I think its like this: boom!, gun goes back, your forward arm wants to stay at rest, this gives forward pressure on the slide, next millisecond, the gun stops at full recoil, by then your forward arm has started to move back, also opening the slide, making it seem as though it unlocked by itself, but with the test mentioned above, I think I have ruled that out. I now shoot with some forward pressure on the forearm, I have heard it called the push-pull technique, with your right arm pulling the stock into your shoulder. it does not open by itself now, but like I said, I haven't tried firing it without a hand on the forarm. i'll check that too.

[Oklahoma Rebel]

ok, now I noticed, that when holding the shotgun upside down, unloaded, when you pum,p the action closed, there are 2 bars that look like they should drop down behind the bolt, but only one does, anyone know whats up with that? my phone is so old that pictures taken are too fuzzy to be of use, or I would have posted one ( if I knew how,lol) so if no one knows what I am talking about, maybe I can get my sis to take one and put it on the computer for me. if someone told me to put a picture on the computer, I would kindly say yes, and set it on the top of the monitor! or wait, should I put it on top of the square thing with the little buzzy fan?:kidding:-Travis

[megasupermagnum]

I can only imagine those bars being a part of the shell lifter. Its just a couple pins to pull the trigger assembly out, then you can remove the shell lifter by squeezing the bars together. I've never seen a problem with one, but it could be some crud in the way, or even the lifter itself it bent slightly.

[W.R.Buchanan]

Travis: if you haven't taken this gun apart to clean it you need to. By knocking the cross pin out the trigger assy will come out. This is the key to the whole thing. You will at that time be able to see how the Slide Catch works. Play with it a little and you will see that the Slide Catch drops when the hammer falls. This releases the slide so the bolt can be racked.

If you hold the gun strait up and down and pull the trigger the fore end will fall back a little. This is because the only thing holding it in the forward position is the Slide Catch. Once the hammer drops and the Slide Catch is pushed down, the slide is then free to move, but the bolt is still engaged and the gun is still in battery. Once the slide is moved to the rear about an inch the bolt is released, and the gun is no longer in battery.

Instructions on how to disassemble these guns are on the internet. Google "M500 disassembly" and about 10 will come up. There are also Youtube video how to's. This is what I did, as I hadn't disassembled one in ages. I even printed it out and put it in a binder so I can find it if I need to. After you have taken it apart a few times it gets easier, but suffice to say it will only go back together one way so You can't really screw it up.

Randy

[RMc]

The Winchester 1200, 1300, and all the foreign made copies will, by design, completely unlock the action the moment the trigger is pulled. Self ejection is normal with this rotary locking bolt action even with light field loads.

[Oklahoma Rebel]

ok, I think it would be good to learn about the shotgun's internal workings anyways, one thing is, small parts and springs intimidate me! too easy to lose.... or shoot across the room! LOL, but I will do it, I cant imagine it being dirty, its a brand new gun, with MAYBE a box of shells through it, but burrs maybe? I do suppose that some grit could get in there, you never know! we'll see, I will keep yalls' updated!-Travis

[W.R.Buchanan]

Travis: about the only thing you could lose on these guns is the little ball bearing that acts as the detent on the safety. But you have to take the safety completely apart to loose the ball and you don't need to do that unless you are putting on an after market one.

The rest of the gun is pretty easy and whereas things might fall out there is not that many and they are all pretty big parts.

After you take the trigger assembly out (you don't need to disassemble that) with one pin there is only 5 other parts that come out of the inside. 2 Shell stops, the Bolt, the Bolt Slide, and the Cartridge Lifter.

For instructions the internet has lots of info on these guns as they are among the most popular shotguns out there.

Here's an excellent video:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qYcaZd2cDn4

Here's one you can download and print out:

http://www.instructables.com/id/How-to-Disassemble-a-Mossberg-500-Series-Shotgun/


I'm sure you can handle it. It ain't that hard to do. Even a Caveman could do it!

Randy