Fillers

[dhom]

I have reloaded for 43 yrs, but have never used fillers. Needless to say I am over my magnum craze. I want to load for my 45-70's on the light side so I need to know about fillers. How do I use them, how do I determine the amount of filler, and where and what kinds should I buy?:veryconfu

[GhostHawk]

IMO you have 2 options here.

Option 1, use a slower rifle powder which can also be used for reduced loads, like 4895 and a filler.

Larry Gibson is I think the authority on the subject. Use the smallest amount that can be fluffed up to fill the required space.

Option 2 is to use a faster burning powder in moderate amounts like Red Dot.
6-13 grains of Red Dot does not need a filler, will send that chunk of lead down range.

The closest rifle I have to what you are talking about is my .444marlin single shot handi rifle.
And I have shot Red Dot from 6 grains to 13. At 13 I am good for 10-15 shots before the shoulder gets "sensitive" and I feel a flinch coming on. At 10 I never did get that same feel. And at 6 I could shoot all day.

At 7 grains per load you are talking 1000 loads per pound of powder. My last 8lb jug cost me under 23$ per pound to my door including shipping and hazmat. Or 2.3 cents per load. Primers cost more than that. Last I looked 8 lb jug of Promo was just under 130$ before shipping and hazmat.

In other words as long as you have lead you could fling 300+ grain chunks towards the hills all day long.

[Mr_Sheesh]

I've used Dacron batting in the past, basically it is the material in most thinnish quilts - It comes as a sort of 1/8" or 1/4" "mat" and I would cut a circle out of it, wrap it about a dowel, and press that down and position it to securely cover the powder and hold it against the flash hole. The circle has to be large enough in diameter to keep the powder in place even with some recoil and so on; So I never tried to cut it down too far, but tried to use just enough that it worked. When you fire that round, the Dacron will basically evaporate, maybe a little plastic will be left in the bore, but it's pretty soft stuff and won't really (In my experience) bother rounds you fire later on.

I'll be trying Kapok soon, I'd think I'll use a just large enough amount that it holds the powder against the flash hole, same basic thing; When you fire a Kapok round, the Kapok is pretty much burned into combustion products so just a little carbon maybe left, plus some CO2, is the gist of what I've read; Maybe better than Dacron, but I haven't loaded a round with it yet.

Mainly I was loading 243 super light bullets for grouse etc. and 30-06 CB loads down at 700fps or so for rabbits, with a little work you can get rounds that shoot TO the crosshairs at 25 yards, same as the hotter loads; Small game out to maybe 40 yards you just aim where you want to hit, maybe mentally adjust for the trajectory.

And DO keep these rounds separately from your "Hot" loads, and marked in some way (if they're CB and your hot loads are J-Word bullets, that's a good clue. Or mark the primers with a Sharpie marker, or whatever you use, there are quite a few ways.) You really don't want to fire a super light load at that trophy buck you spotted during deer season and won't eat unless you get it... I color code the boxes for oddballs like these and shotshells in Red added to the usual color code, warns me that they're unusual loads.

I've heard of Trail Boss being used for reduced loads too; Wish I could find my old reloading notebook, it'll show up, hopefully. Otherwise I'll have to play at the range and re-develop some loads. Tragic :P

[Larry Gibson]

Ghosthawk is correct; "Option 2 is to use a faster burning powder in moderate amounts like Red Dot.
6-13 grains of Red Dot does not need a filler, will send that chunk of lead down range" and his suggestion is what I use for the "light side" loads you want. For cast bullets of 300 gr or less I use Bullseye for velocities upwards of 800 to 1050 fps. Red Dot does as well. For heavier bullets up through 415 gr pushing 1100 up to 1300 fps I use Unique. No filler or wad is used or needed for those loads.

With slower burning powders such as 2400 up through 4895 with 350 - 500 gr cast I do use a Dacron filler if load density is less than 80%. With loads using these powders if you are just shooting on a range from a bench or standing and are loading the rifle consistently the same way powder position sensitivity usually isn't apparent w/o the use of the filler. That's because the powder is positioned consistently by the way you load the rifle (single loading). Thus if you've worked the load up so ignition is consistent then the filler may not be necessary or beneficial. However, if you load from the magazine while hunting, plinking, etc. from various positions shooting at various angles then the filler will most definitely be beneficial.

[smokeywolf]

For heavier bullets up through 415 gr pushing 1100 up to 1300 fps I use Unique. No filler or wad is used or needed for those loads.
These are my favorite Trapdoor loads.

For model '86 Winchesters built to handle black powder pressures, I usually use IMR 4198 or SR 5744, which I load to higher end Trapdoor pressures.

For model '86s with "Nickel Steel" barrels, I usually use IMR 3031 or 4895 loaded to "Group 2" levels.

I've never used fillers in 45-70, 45-60 or 40-65.

[NSB]

Listen to Larry Gibson. He is the ultimate authority on this subject....period.

[gunauthor]

I use 10.2 grains of 700-X with a 400 grain boolit. Great for plinking, punching holes in paper etc. It gives me lots of "trigger time" and I don't have to fight a flinch. Fast powders work great for light loads and no need to fool with fillers.

[ReloaderFred]

For light loads in .45-70, you can't beat TrailBoss. It's specifically made for the purpose, and does it well.

The only round I use a filler in is my .45-120 Sharps, using IMR 4895, and for that I use Super Grex, which is no longer available, but I've laid in a lifetime supply of it. I've pushing my 420 gr. GC bullet at just over 2,200 fps with it, and get no leading, and great accuracy.

Hope this helps.

Fred

[ReloaderFred]

I'm going to move this thread to the Cast Bullet Loads Forum, where it will get more traffic.

Fred

[vzerone]

I listen to myself as I've been using fillers for over 42 years. I started out with Kapok, then went to Dacron. Next I went up to buffer when needed. Contrary to popular belief the buffers I used didn't burn. Kapok blew out the barrel like blowing on a dandelion ready to release it's seed pods. Dacron did too, but not to such a degree. I even used Kapok in 45 Colt loads in my revolvers. I'll tell you what that did. It kept the cylinder outside forward edges and cylinder face extremely clean. Anywhere the powder residue accumulates was clean. I showed this to a friend I was shooting too at the range one day by saying "Look at your revolver and look at mine. Why is mine so much cleaner then yours?" We both started with clean guns and both shooting cast. He said he didn't know and I told him about the Kapok. I don't do that anymore, it's time consuming and not needed really. I remember way back BruceB said he found Dacron remnants in front of his bench. I've never found a single piece of it. The NRA said they found little round balls of melted Dacron in the bore. I've never found that either.

Light charges of fast powder don't need any filler. That is except if you're loading button collar bullets with small charges of 231 powder. That needs something to keep it all the way down at the flashole end of the case. They're other instances. With slow powders I don't feel you need anything. I believe those that put Dacron in just about all their loads do so for their own piece of mind. Kind of like some folks put a certain little seasoning on everything they eat. Yes I know that there are instances where Dacron will lower the ES and SD, essentially helping it burn efficiently and keep some grey wash out of your bore, but there are other ways to prevent that without use of a filler. Do they use the Dacron in jacketed loads with the same powder? I never ever used or would use COW. I've also used polyethylene discs under the bullet base. Mainly in revolver loads. This done just about the same thing as the Kapok in my revolver loads mentioned above. All these keep the gases from cutting your bullet bases, but not at good as gas checks. I suspect all you know that fillers raise pressures and some more than others.

[dhom]

Thanks for all the replies!!!

[MostlyLeverGuns]

Sometimes, when using the fast pistol powder, other small charges in large rifle cases - 5-10 grains Bullseye, HP-38, Red Dot - a Magnum Rifle primer helps with consistency.

[Texas by God]

I used toilet paper in my 45-70. It wiped the bore too......

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

[vzerone]

I used toilet paper in my 45-70. It wiped the bore too......

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

Charmins? Northern? LOL

[TAC14]

Coarse ground Cuban corn meal. Doesn't form a plug like other grain based fillers. Cleans out fouling and smells good too. NOT the stuff from General Mills.

Amazon has it.

Coarse-Ground Yellow Corn Meal, Bulk 5 Lb. Bag
by Kauffman's Fruit Farm
$11.99 $ 11 99 ($2.40/Pound)