CVA Hunter in 44 Magnum

[newton]

I have not picked it up yet, but it should be here sometime next week. In the meantime, I have been scouring and digging to see exactly what I want to shoot in it.

I do know that I want to shoot the heavies, and so I have the Lee 310 grain mold on the way also. Now I am just trying to narrow it down to powder.

My goal is to have a good deer gun for shots up to 125 yards or so. I am going to put a fixed power 4x on it.

The thing that is hard seems to be sifting through all the pistol load information, and the fact that most rifle load data is for the lever guns.

Ive never loaded for the 44 mag before, so I do not have any of the 'normal' powders used for it. I do have Unique and will be working with it to start out.

It seems that H110/W296 is the go to powder other than that right? I know 2400 is popular, but I have not seen it around in a long time.

I'll be sure to keep this updated as I work with the gun, but am hoping I can gleen some more information than what I seem to be finding about using the 300+ grain boolits in the 44 mag rifle. Like I said, most information is geared toward pistols(I do understand they are safe to shoot in rifles) and most data is centered around 240 grain boolits - not the heavies.

Is 110/296 as hard to work with as some say? Would Unique get me where I would like to be?

[Gray Fox]

If you go to the Hodgdon load data site and look under "rifle" cartridges you can find data for .44 Mag out of a 20" barrel with several boolit weights and powders. GF

[nagantguy]

My brother before taking sick just got this daft rifle and drill d a nice buck on the second day of MI rifle season; I shoot the heavies in my rifles so loaded some for my brother, over H110, the Hornady 240 xtp shot so well he went with that but this rifle seems to have the right twist for the heavies cause the 310s and the 280s both shot very well.
He wanted the big boys, the rifle gets final say; the 240's xtp we loaded shot so well that at one point we called a cease fire cause he thought he was missing the target all together, 1 hole at 50 yards, the back of the paper showed it was more than one, he was skeptical so I put blue tape over the hole,next shot centered it, told him to then shoot the corners of the 2 inch wide blue tape. When you have that kind of shooting you go with that load no matter what YOU await to use; the last group at 100 was exactly 1.4 inches for a 3 shot group .

[OlDeuce]

Your going to like that .44 !!!!! Ol Deuce

[GhostHawk]

That one is going to make meat.

If it shoots that good you don't worry about nothing else. That is minute of deer heart right there.

[newton]

My brother before taking sick just got this daft rifle and drill d a nice buck on the second day of MI rifle season; I shoot the heavies in my rifles so loaded some for my brother, over H110, the Hornady 240 xtp shot so well he went with that but this rifle seems to have the right twist for the heavies cause the 310s and the 280s both shot very well.
He wanted the big boys, the rifle gets final say; the 240's xtp we loaded shot so well that at one point we called a cease fire cause he thought he was missing the target all together, 1 hole at 50 yards, the back of the paper showed it was more than one, he was skeptical so I put blue tape over the hole,next shot centered it, told him to then shoot the corners of the 2 inch wide blue tape. When you have that kind of shooting you go with that load no matter what YOU await to use; the last group at 100 was exactly 1.4 inches for a 3 shot group .

Thanks for the info. I may eventually try some jacketed rounds, but for now I would like to stick with cast. Its hard to stick with something like that though when you are getting accuracy like you talked about. I'll deffinitely keep this in the back of my head for future use.

What kind of loads were you working up with the 310s?

[newton]

Here is something I just found this morning. I thought I would share it with you all. I am guessing some already have this book. It sure would be nice if they kept making them, and updating them.

http://marvinstuart.com/firearm/Manuals/Reloading/Caliber%20Specific%20Load%20Data/MidwayUsa%20LoadMap%2044RemingtonMagnum.pdf

[TCLouis]

If the 310 shoot in a rifle like it does in my SRH, your load quest is done.
Won't quote amount since that will likely vary with your gun, but H 110 seemed to fit the bill.
I would at least start with the 2400/H110/W 296 trinity.

[newton]

If the 310 shoot in a rifle like it does in my SRH, your load quest is done.
Won't quote amount since that will likely vary with your gun, but H 110 seemed to fit the bill.
I would at least start with the 2400/H110/W 296 trinity.

I sure hope it does. I have come to the conclusion that I will just have to start with 110/296. I can get other powders, but would have to order them. Those two are the only ones I have available locally. I have read enough now that I feel comfortable using them. I just was not sure about it before.

I REALLY hope I can get the 310 to shoot well in the rifle. It has the 1:20" twist so stability should not be an issue at all. I will hopefully be trying things out toward the end of next week.

I am going to start with ~19 grains and work my way up. I am pretty sure I will end up around the 21 - 21.5 grain mark based on the fact that 95% of people who shoot that boolit use that load.

[Rick Hodges]

I have a CVA Scout II in 44 mag. it loves the 240gr. Hornady xtp on top of near max. loads of 296. 1775 fps and accurate.
I also load a Nei 235gr GC boolit at 1650 fps over 2400....it is almost as accurate.
My CVA has a 20-1 twist and should be good with heavier boolits....but seeing how it shoots with the other two, why bother?

[Wagnerwerks]

I'm thrilled to read about this gun... It's next on my list. I have a microgroove Marlin 44so I need something to shoot smaller boolits in.

[longbow]

My go to powder is IMR4227 for my Marlin. I tried H110 and didn't like it as much. Part of that though is that the IMR4227 can be downloaded and is useful in other cast boolit cartridges like .308 Win and .303 British.

I wanted to go with heavy boolits but found that anything over about 270 gr. wouldn't remain stable with the 1:38" twist. 300 gr. Hornady's were keyholing by 100 yards. Heavy cast did a bit better but not much. A 300 gr. WFN design might do okay and some say they do. 265 gr. cast shot well to 200 yards so I stick to 270 gr. and under with good results.

If the CVA has 1:20" twist you should be good with the heavy bullets/boolits though.

I will be watching for range results! I might be interested in a CVA .44 mag. myself!

Longbow

[newton]

I have a CVA Scout II in 44 mag. it loves the 240gr. Hornady xtp on top of near max. loads of 296. 1775 fps and accurate.
I also load a Nei 235gr GC boolit at 1650 fps over 2400....it is almost as accurate.
My CVA has a 20-1 twist and should be good with heavier boolits....but seeing how it shoots with the other two, why bother?

I hear ya, but I do have my reasons for wanting to go bigger - I just hope that I don't find that it shoots better with the lighter ones. I know that a 240 grain boolit is all I "need" for most of my hunting, but I got the gun specifically because of the twist rate in order to shoot the heavier ones.

It was a tuff call because I almost opted for the 45-70. However, I liked the efficiency of the smaller pistol case.

Its good to hear that this gun will shoot good with the 240's though.

[newton]

My go to powder is IMR4227 for my Marlin. I tried H110 and didn't like it as much. Part of that though is that the IMR4227 can be downloaded and is useful in other cast boolit cartridges like .308 Win and .303 British.

I wanted to go with heavy boolits but found that anything over about 270 gr. wouldn't remain stable with the 1:38" twist. 300 gr. Hornady's were keyholing by 100 yards. Heavy cast did a bit better but not much. A 300 gr. WFN design might do okay and some say they do. 265 gr. cast shot well to 200 yards so I stick to 270 gr. and under with good results.

If the CVA has 1:20" twist you should be good with the heavy bullets/boolits though.

I will be watching for range results! I might be interested in a CVA .44 mag. myself!

Longbow

I actually have thought about using 4227 because I do have a little in stock for my 308 cast loads. It seems to be popular around here also, but hopefully it will show up soon. If the W296 doesnt work I'll give it a go.

When I first decided to get a 44 Mag I was going to get a lever gun. But after doing all the looking around I realized that the 1:38" twist was going to potentially hurt my chances to do what I want with the 300 grain boolits. So I opted for the CVA. I was eyeballing the new Henry's, but I know CVA has a great trigger and great customer service, so I decided to go this route.

I am really looking forward to shooting it. I am going to pick up my brass today, getting my scope and 310 grain mould in the mail today, so I will be doing some casting tonight/tomorrow.

[Wagnerwerks]

That's great. I will add, I wanted a 357 rifle so I went with the traditions after many good reviews, but never holding one. After receiving it, the CVA is a nicer fit and finish. I'll be owning a 44 mag CVA soon.

[newton]

Picked it up today. I’m really happy with it. I got the scope mounted, but ran out of time to develop some loads. The gun feels great. Going to be a perfect woods gun.

I had some 44 special I loaded for a friend. I had some extra so I decided to just see how it shot. The loads were standard Skeeter loads. I shot at a target about 20 yards away and they were all over the place. Very interesting to me.

I was shooting more off hand than steady though. So who knows if it didn’t like the load of me. I did a quick slug, and it came out looking good. I need to do it better, but preliminary results are a groove diameter of .430”.

Pictures and more tests to follow. It was interesting shooting those special loads though. They sounded way different than any other gun I have.

[Jniedbalski]

The cva I shot in 44 mag was really accurate. The load that he used was lead commercial cast bullets with IMR 4227. I wish I knew the weight of the bullet. 5 shots at 100 yards all touching one ragged hole. I only shot a few groups with it but the worst group I got that day was around 1 1/2

[Rick Hodges]

I hope you removed the sight rings that came with the rifle, cleaned and remounted it. I didn't with mine and was having a devil of a time getting my cast loads to shoot well, after it shot Jkt. stuff just fine. It turns out the one piece scope mount and rings were mounted with crud in the screw holes...they had loosened after a few shots and the mount was wobbling a bit.
I took it off cleaned everything, checked carefully that the screws were not bottoming out, and all has been well since.

I know better than to trust the factory mounting.....but every once in a while I need to be reminded. Good luck with yours.

[newton]

I hope you removed the sight rings that came with the rifle, cleaned and remounted it. I didn't with mine and was having a devil of a time getting my cast loads to shoot well, after it shot Jkt. stuff just fine. It turns out the one piece scope mount and rings were mounted with crud in the screw holes...they had loosened after a few shots and the mount was wobbling a bit.
I took it off cleaned everything, checked carefully that the screws were not bottoming out, and all has been well since.

I know better than to trust the factory mounting.....but every once in a while I need to be reminded. Good luck with yours.

Yep. :) I took them off, cleaned them up, then put a dab of locktite on them. Last year I got a torque driver in order to be able to do things "proper", so I tried to look up the torque specs and could only find that the base be set at 25 and the rings at 20. They seem to be holding. I always mark a few lines on the scope, in a place its not so noticable, just to be able to visually check if it has moved.

There was a lot of residue under the base, and a little bit of stuff in the holes but not much.

[newton]

I checked again this morning and it really seems like the barrel is slugging right at .429" for the grooves and .420" for the lands. I am going to do it one more time soon as I get a better slug to work with. I used a 45 cal round ball the first time and a 45 cal lee REAL bullet the second time. Both of them are kind of hard to work with so I am going to pour a soft slug in a 45 cal regular boolit mould I have. Regardless, I know for sure that the groove diameter is NOT over .430" which is absolutely astounding to me. It makes sense why a lot of people are having good luck with accuracy.

I think my accuracy(lack of) last night was just a combination of several things. I am not putting much stock into it really. I just wanted to shoot it real bad so I shot what I had available. I am sure once I get the 310's loaded up into magnum brass I will see the gun shine. I am going to play with IMR 4227 first, and if I cannot get the accuracy and velocity I want then I will switch over to 110/296. 1500 fps is my goal, but accuracy trumps that. If I can achieve both with 4227 I'll be tickled.

I thought about what the noise of the shot reminded me of. It really sounded like a morter round being shot. Like a high pitched hollow sound. It was interesting to say the least. I have never shot a big bore rifle, only handguns. 30 caliber is the biggest rifle I have ever shot.

Once it gets nice out I promise pictures. I have to say that I was going back and forth between this one and the SS Scout version. I am glad I went with the Hunter. It just seems like one of those guns that is going to see a lot of use.

One thing I will say, I used my digital fishing weight scale to measure it this morning. Of course I have the scope on, a Simmons 4x32, but it was registering just over 7.5lbs. I figured it would be lower, but I guess the scope and rings do add that much to the weight of the gun. I did not measure it without them, but it was supposed to be 5.8lbs.

[longbow]

I've been toying with the idea of a .44 mag. "Whisper" using a 400 gr. +/- boolit seated out but need a fast twist to stabilize that heavy a boolit. I think 1:20" would do it. The boolit would need to be either a nose/bore rider or the throat lengthened to accept the long boolit but it should work well I think. Dr. Richard gun designed a heavy subsonic boolit for .45 Colt/.45/70 that I would like to try in a scaled down version for this.

In the end if it worked the gun would be usable with standard .44 mag. ammunition as well but would be like shooting .22 shorts in a .22 L.R. chamber. The boolit seated out would allow max powder capacity for supersonic loading with heavy boolits too.

Just a thought. I like heavy and slow.

Longbow

[newton]

I got some of the Lee’s cast up, checked, and baking their coat in the oven. I’ll hopefully get to play with them tomorrow.

I had to try the 240’s I was loading in 44 spec in the 44 mag cases. I loaded them with 22 grains of 4227. Shot nice, lots tighter than yesterday, but I know why 4227 is not recommended with lighter boolits. Lots of granulars left in the barrel.

I wonder if the 450 bushmaster would be good for a suppressed round?

[Buckshot Bill]

I've been toying with the idea of a .44 mag. "Whisper" using a 400 gr. +/- boolit seated out but need a fast twist to stabilize that heavy a boolit. I think 1:20" would do it. The boolit would need to be either a nose/bore rider or the throat lengthened to accept the long boolit but it should work well I think. Dr. Richard gun designed a heavy subsonic boolit for .45 Colt/.45/70 that I would like to try in a scaled down version for this.

In the end if it worked the gun would be usable with standard .44 mag. ammunition as well but would be like shooting .22 shorts in a .22 L.R. chamber. The boolit seated out would allow max powder capacity for supersonic loading with heavy boolits too.

Just a thought. I like heavy and slow.

Longbow

I did something similar with a 45/410 barrel using fireformed .444 brass. I was trying to get accuracy from the long chamber. Twist wasn't fast enough to stabilize a resized 405 grn 45-70 boolit like I wanted, they keyholed bad @ 25 yds but it shot 230 grn colt boolits good.

[newton]

Did some shooting yesterday. My plan, as stated before, is to shoot the Lee 310's from this gun only(unless it just won't shoot them in the end). I had 50 I cast up, hand picked through, gas checked, and powder coated. I got IMR 4227 to work with this go around.

I really poured through all the information I could find with using the Lee 310 and 4227. There is a lot of differences in loads using this weight of boolit. The Lyman cast manual shows a max charge of 19.2 if I remember right, and is the only published data for the Lee boolit. Hodgdon lists a 325gr BTB with a max load of 21gr 4227.

So I started at 19gr, and just fired one to see how it was and what the pressure sign might be. There was zero pressure indication, so I stepped up half a grain. Still no pressure indication so I decided to get the chrony out and see how things were flying. 19.5gr was around 1300fps. So I started stepping up bit by bit. I ended up well above any published data without any pressure indication *except* that you could see the webbing stretch right above the case head. Kind of like a sizing ring mark, or the tell tale case head seperation line. Best I can tell is that its just the way my chamber is cut?

I do not believe the brass is seperating, there is no indication from the inside that it is. I am going to measure how long it is compared to the others tonight. They were all brand new brass, Starline. Those loads were pushing the boolit 1500fps. Definitely compressing the powder charge. I wish there was a way I could measure the pressure to be honest. Lyman says that at their max load with 4227 and the Lee boolit was running ~38,000 cup if my memory serves me right. I will double check on that again tonight.

Whats dumbfounded me is if thats the case, then there is no telling what the load I was shooting would be at - but there was no apparent pressure signs noted except that one(maybe?). No sticky extraction, no flattened primers, no cratered primers. I stopped at 22grains of IMR 4227. I just do not see how I could be exceeding pressures without signs, but at the same time how could I not based on the fact Lyman was getting near top pressures with almost 3 grains lower?

One thing that cut my testing short is I made my boolits WAY too soft. I really need to get a hardness tester. After about 20 grains I started getting a ring of lead melted on the case mouth. No leading in the barrel, but the initial blast was cutting the lead before it got into the barrel. Very interesting. What really was the tell tale sign was that I sized my boolits to .430", but after seating them they would expand to .432"-.433", and sometimes more. Just the pressure it was taking to seat the boolit was enough to squash it down and enlarge it.

Needless to say, accuracy was non existant. So I loaded up the rest of them with a light Unique load and plan to just use them to fireform the rest of my brass. I'll mix up a harder alloy and start the testing again. I was trying to go for a really soft alloy thinking I would not be pushing them that hard, plus the gas check, but in the end it does seem that I am pushing them pretty hard.

I also think I will go ahead and get some 110 or 296 to work with. I really want to hit that 1500 fps mark, but I do not feel comfortable being over all the loading data there is by that much with the 4227 - even if there is no pressure signs. I have read numerous places that it is "impossible" to put enough 4227 in a 44 mag case to overpressure it - is this true?

[longbow]

Have you slugged the bore?

SAAMI spec for rifle is 0.431" groove diameter where for handgun it is 0.429" groove diameter. Makes no sense to me but that is what SAAMI calls up.

Generally it seems that .44 mag rifles tend to like "fat" boolits. My Marlin likes 0.433" minimum and will chamber 0.435" and shoot them fine. Anything under 0.431" leads badly.

While I like IMR4227, you may be better off with H110 for higher velocity. I can't say whether you cannot put enough 4227 in a case to cause over pressure but I wouldn't assume that. There may also be some "better" powders nowadays as well. I am a little behind on some of the newer offerings.

If you are exceeding acceptable pressures for your gun you should be seeing flattened primers... in my experience anyway. That and/or sticky extraction are things you should look for.

Longbow

[kungfustyle]

http://ranchdogoutdoors.com/ is where I got some info for my 300g from NOE. When you give the first round a squeeze you'll realize why they have a recoil pad on a 44 mag.

[newton]

Have you slugged the bore?

SAAMI spec for rifle is 0.431" groove diameter where for handgun it is 0.429" groove diameter. Makes no sense to me but that is what SAAMI calls up.

Generally it seems that .44 mag rifles tend to like "fat" boolits. My Marlin likes 0.433" minimum and will chamber 0.435" and shoot them fine. Anything under 0.431" leads badly.

While I like IMR4227, you may be better off with H110 for higher velocity. I can't say whether you cannot put enough 4227 in a case to cause over pressure but I wouldn't assume that. There may also be some "better" powders nowadays as well. I am a little behind on some of the newer offerings.

If you are exceeding acceptable pressures for your gun you should be seeing flattened primers... in my experience anyway. That and/or sticky extraction are things you should look for.

Longbow

Mine slugs in at .429" groove, and ~.420" for the lands. I triple checked this. The lands are harder to measure, but the groove measurement is within .0005" I am sure. It's nice to have that tight of a bore I guess, even with those super soft boolits I never got any leading down the barrel I suppose because it was so tight.

Thanks for the reassurance that I should have some signs of pressure if I was indeed going over them. I thought about it last night, I think that the actual pressure/velocity would be higher with harder boolits. I think on ignition the pressure was so great with the higher loads that it blew past the boolit before it moved down the barrel, releasing some pressure, then the boolit sealed the bore and therefore no leading? Here is a picture of one of the cases.

210517

I am going to pour some new boolits tonight, should have them ready to test this weekend.

[newton]

http://ranchdogoutdoors.com/ is where I got some info for my 300g from NOE. When you give the first round a squeeze you'll realize why they have a recoil pad on a 44 mag.

Thanks for the link. I had completely forgot about ranchdog's testing. I had used his data before when working up loads for my 30-30.

[longbow]

I had a similar experience many years ago with my .45-70 converted Siamese Mauser using a Hornady load of IMR4227 under a Lyman 457125. This load was particularly HOT! though it was out of the book. Being a frugal kinda guy I looked for economical powders and this load of IMR4227 was the lightest powder charge to achieve the same sort of velocities as IMR4320... not quite as high but awfully close.

The first time I pulled the trigger the gun kind of magically appeared about 6" behind where my shoulder had been, of course taking body parts with it. The recoil was a nasty sharp jab that really, really hurt! I guess no surprise with a powder that fast under a heavy boolit.

While they shot okay and I had no barrel leading, there was melted lead around the case mouths. I had never seen that before and not since. I have to suspect that the powder was so fast that there was gas cutting at the boolit base as it left the cartridge but then the boolit sealed the bore.

In any case, very similar situation to yours so I suspect the fast powder is the culprit even if you aren't over pressure.

Something else to look for too is if you can recover any boolits more or less intact, check the lube grooves for collapse. I have had ACWW Lyman 429421's collapse at the large single lube groove using book loads and no pressure signs. Again, I suspect the powder burn rate was too fast so short sharp acceleration curve and yielding alloy.

I'm sure there are others here that have more experience and maybe better explanations but that's my take from what I have seen.

Longbow

[Wagnerwerks]

Could you use a cardboard wad?

[OlDeuce]

We have been working with the CVA all this week no real issues ! But it's the big brother to your .44! We started with that BRUT Factory round and it's not what
we wanted or needed ! I ordered the Lee 310GC mold and playing with the powder! we came up with A1680 and cut the load back from the starting point and it's
doing very well! Nice chamber !!!! Ol Deuce

[OlDeuce]

Could you use a cardboard wad?

On that short of a cartridge you really don't need a wad with smokeless ......If it's a hot load a gas check is what you may want to use !!! Ol Deuce

[Wagnerwerks]

Good point. Lol. I'm a newbie but I'm sitting in front of 44 mag gas checks as I typed that. Doh!

[OlDeuce]

Good point. Lol. I'm a newbie but I'm sitting in front of 44 mag gas checks as I typed that. Doh!

Its funny how thoughts and words all come out!!! I saw a guy shoot a hot load over a dry grass and started a fire with his cardboard wad !! But Live and Learn!!! Ol Deuce

[newton]

We have been working with the CVA all this week no real issues ! But it's the big brother to your .44! We started with that BRUT Factory round and it's not what
we wanted or needed ! I ordered the Lee 310GC mold and playing with the powder! we came up with A1680 and cut the load back from the starting point and it's
doing very well! Nice chamber !!!! Ol Deuce

I got to play some yesterday myself. I think I’m on my way to figuring it out. Usually I have more time to do things at a more rapid pace, but I’ve been busy with other things. I have to say that the gun is way more fun to shoot than I had imagined. I’m sure the 444 is even more.

[newton]

I had a similar experience many years ago with my .45-70 converted Siamese Mauser using a Hornady load of IMR4227 under a Lyman 457125. This load was particularly HOT! though it was out of the book. Being a frugal kinda guy I looked for economical powders and this load of IMR4227 was the lightest powder charge to achieve the same sort of velocities as IMR4320... not quite as high but awfully close.

The first time I pulled the trigger the gun kind of magically appeared about 6" behind where my shoulder had been, of course taking body parts with it. The recoil was a nasty sharp jab that really, really hurt! I guess no surprise with a powder that fast under a heavy boolit.

While they shot okay and I had no barrel leading, there was melted lead around the case mouths. I had never seen that before and not since. I have to suspect that the powder was so fast that there was gas cutting at the boolit base as it left the cartridge but then the boolit sealed the bore.

In any case, very similar situation to yours so I suspect the fast powder is the culprit even if you aren't over pressure.

Something else to look for too is if you can recover any boolits more or less intact, check the lube grooves for collapse. I have had ACWW Lyman 429421's collapse at the large single lube groove using book loads and no pressure signs. Again, I suspect the powder burn rate was too fast so short sharp acceleration curve and yielding alloy.

I'm sure there are others here that have more experience and maybe better explanations but that's my take from what I have seen.

Longbow

Thanks for sharing your experience with this kind of thing. I got some W296 and played some with the harder boolits yesterday. The powder is gonna be much better than the 4227, but I’m wondering if I might have to go even harder with my boolits. I really need to get a hardness tester.

The “ring of lead” showed back up once I got to 21 grains. I will hopefully get to play a little more today. It’s brutally cold outside right now. I’ll have more info/data to post tomorrow. It will be easier to type once I get on a PC instead on my phone.

[longbow]

I'll add a bit more detail to my .45-70 experience. The melted lead came with the rather hot load (but a book load) of IMR4227 under heavy boolits in my Siamese Mauser. Changing powder to IMR4320 solved that but in the long barrel at max. book loads I was getting intermittent leading in the last 2" of the barrel. I don't recall if that was with the Lyman 457125 (500 gr.) or 457124 (385 gr.). I had both moulds (both are PB moulds) and two .45-70's ~ the Siamese Mauser and a Marlin 1895.

Initially I was loading hotter for the Siamese Mauser (I sort of liked recoil in those days) but later just used the Marlin loads as they were more than I needed anyway.

Anyway, with some loads I got occasional leading in the last 2" of the Mauser barrel. In those days I wasn't educated enough to think whether it might be gas cutting or running out of lube. I decided to try using .410 fiber wads over the powder. That solved the leading problem so I have to think it was a gas cutting problem. Regardless, it worked.

I was not chronographing loads so I don't know how much effect the wad had on pressure or velocity but there were no flattened primers or any indications of high pressure.

A thin polyethylene wad, cardboard wad or even wax wad might have worked for me and might help your loads.

Rereading, I guess I missed this... you were using the Lee 310 gr. boolit powder coated and gas checked? And still got lead melting? I was thinking you weren't using a gas check. If you were using a gas check, and powder coating and still got lead melting then gas cutting must be occurring as the boolit leaves the cartridge. Recovered boolits should tell you a story. If the base band is bare of powder coating and shows rippley surface then that could explain it.

Are you expanding the case mouth? If not you might be getting some shaving going on that might take the powder coating and maybe some lead off.

You could also be experiencing tight necks sizing too soft an alloy. I found that since my Lee Enfield .303 needs a 0.315" boolit and my RCBS sizing die thinks it is sizing to nominal spec for 0.312" boolit the tight necks were sizing down the boolits. I went to a Lee Collet die and mandrel to size necks to suit the 0.315" boolits to solve that problem.

Pull a boolit then mic it to see if boolits are being shaved or sized at seating.

Just kinda thinking out load here... and rambling a bit.

Longbow

[newton]

Rereading, I guess I missed this... you were using the Lee 310 gr. boolit powder coated and gas checked? And still got lead melting? I was thinking you weren't using a gas check. If you were using a gas check, and powder coating and still got lead melting then gas cutting must be occurring as the boolit leaves the cartridge. Recovered boolits should tell you a story. If the base band is bare of powder coating and shows rippley surface then that could explain it.

Are you expanding the case mouth? If not you might be getting some shaving going on that might take the powder coating and maybe some lead off.

You could also be experiencing tight necks sizing too soft an alloy. I found that since my Lee Enfield .303 needs a 0.315" boolit and my RCBS sizing die thinks it is sizing to nominal spec for 0.312" boolit the tight necks were sizing down the boolits. I went to a Lee Collet die and mandrel to size necks to suit the 0.315" boolits to solve that problem.

Pull a boolit then mic it to see if boolits are being shaved or sized at seating.

Just kinda thinking out load here... and rambling a bit.

Longbow

Yes, powder coated and gas checked. I am definetely expanding the necks, and crimping in a different step. The lead on the case mouth is for sure from gas cutting.

I'll try pulling a boolit to see what it measures at, it may very well be getting squeezed down. I had thought about it before, but wouldnt the boolit still be tight in the case and the leading be in the barrel not the rim of the case mouth? It seems to me(may be wrong) that the boolit base should seal the case until it gets out of it, and then any gas cutting would be present just ahead of the the case mouth in the leade. Maybe it is blowing back onto the case mouth?

On that note, I did finally see some leading in the bore that I cleaned out yesterday.

[newton]

Just to update this experience, the first scope(fixed power Simmons) I put on broke - the ocular lens came completely loose. The second scope(3x9x50 Simmons) I put on kept moving in the rings. It was one I had lying around so I figured I would use it. But after my first experience I decided I could not trust it and the fact it was moving did not help anything. On top of that, I was getting very sparadic groups. So the only other scope I had lying around was a "44 Mag" Simmons, but the adjustable objective end sits right on the barrel and I just do not like when a scope does that. Besides, a 4x12x44 AO on a 44 Mag rifle just doesnt make much sense.

So, needless to say, I have been testing ammo with defective equipment. I am going to get a scope on order so that will take care of the equipment side. I have never had a scope really fail on me before. I would not consider the recoil on this gun to be that much either. Regardless, I am going to get a 2x7x35 Burris to put on it.

As far as the testing goes, I think once I get my scope issue fixed I am real close to having "the load".

210900

The picture may be a little confusing, but I will try to help it be understood. I started(after doing prior testing over the chrony) with the 21gr load. You can see it grouping down low. I then moved the crosshairs to match it and tried the 20gr(#1) load. I thought "Eureka!" when I first saw it. So I promptly go and make a few more. I shoot one over the chrony just to see what its doing, 1500fps, then go to the target and shoot the other two. You can see them listed as 20gr#2. They were completely off from where they were before.

I figure it must be a fluke, so I try it one more time. They are marked as #3, and hit even lower(one is kinda cut out due to another shot). It was at this time I saw that my scope was moving in the rings. I know its not the scopes fault for moving, but I had the rings torqued correctly with a torque driver, and I figure if the recoil is enough to move the scope itself, then it is enough to do some dammage to a 'cheaply' made scope. *as a side note, I do find that the less expensive scopes have their place for rifles, but in this case its just not the right fit. I bet if I was shooting lighter boolits it would not be as bad.

So I swap out scopes, and try again, and you can see where I was hitting - I did not mark them. However, I still think the scope is not doing well, and I absolutely do not like it on this gun, so I am going to quit till the new one comes in.

At this point I think I am real close. That 20gr load shows promise, and I bet that if I had a harder alloy I would even be able to push it better. I am going to try and capture some of my boolits just to see what might be going on.

[newton]

More updates. I figured I would show a picture of the fixed power Simmons I put on it originally. I really like the idea of fixed power, but I think the coming 2x7x35 will do just great.

211027

I decided to go ahead and try something last night with the few clean pieces of brass I had left, which was to not use the FCD I had been using, and instead crimp/seat in the same step. I usually do not do that because it can be tricky with lead, but the place I am crimping, and using a roll crimp, does lend itself to this proceedure. The upside is that it does not get touched by the carbide ring in the FCD, potentially sizing the boolit down.

211028

This is what the boolit looks like after I pulled it(which took a massive amount of force with one of those whacker pullers!).

211030

So that works, and sure enough, my boolit came out the same size it went into the case - .430". What this did for me is help rule out any downsizing of the boolit, and the potential for it to cause that gas cutting that was happening at the case mouth. After I loaded up 4 of them I took them out to shoot. The target below shows the results, plus the last 4 cases I had left that I went ahead and loaded up. Load is as follows, for all 8 rounds;

20.5gr W296
WLP Primer
1.717" OAL

211031

As you can see, after the first two shots I once again had one of those big grins on my face. Then that third shot wiped it all away. Then after the fourth shot I knew what was happening. So I took the rifle back to the shop to verify. Sure enough - scope slipping once again.

211032

Its hard to get a good picture of it, but you can see the little bit of movement happening. I went ahead and shot the other 4 rounds just to see what they would be like, and as you can see, I do not know of anything else that would cause such sporadic hits. Needless to say, I have some 'mechanical' work ahead of me. I think the boolit/load is gonna be a fantastic shooter once I get my sights held tight. It does not seem to me to have that much recoil, but I guess there is enough to be causing these issues. I tried the ole duct tape trick also, but as you can see it did not help in this case.

My scope will be in tomorrow. Tonight I am going to bed the sight base to the barrel. I do not know if there is any play there, but I am going to eliminate the possibility. I would lap the rings, but they are the one piece durrasight ones. I like one piece rings, so I do not want to swap them out. The durrasight rings have grooves in them(I'll get pictures of my process), so I think they would be an ideal canidate for the silicon/liquid tape process. It in essence does the same thing that lapping does - I believe - unless someone has actual experience that says otherwise?

The other thing I am going to do is mix/cast up some harder boolits. I noticed a very small amount of lead on the mouth of a few cases I fired last night. I still think my mix is too soft for what I am doing. Casting up some harder boolits is the only thing I can think of.

Hey, at least I am having fun. I know I am just going to have double the fun once I get everything finished and just get to shoot the gun having a good idea of where its gonna hit.

[longbow]

Okay, good to know the boolits aren't being sized down. I had that experience in my .303's. The brass is fairly thick and hadn't been annealed and I was full length sizing in RCBS dies that size down for optimistically small bullets of 0.311". My rifles want 0.315" boolits so pushing then into tight and stiff necks was actually sizing them down. I went to a Lee collet die with mandrel to leave case neck insides at 0.313" instead of 0.310" and annealed my brass. Made a huge difference in accuracy.

I'd guess that blow by occurs in the chamber as the boolit is leaving the brass.

The pressure is swelling the brass and I bet the neck has expanded before the boolit leaves so gas can start leaking past the boolit. If the throat is tight and short leade then it should seal but if a bit of clearance is there then gas must leak by the boolit before is seals in the bore.

I don't think you could get melted lead on the case mouth otherwise. I know it surprised me when it happened with my .45-70... but only with that IMR4227 load. I have to think that enough gas blew by to take the sharp edge of the boolit base and leave that on the case mouth. Maybe someone else has a better idea.

Now since your boolit is gas checked and powder coated it is a little more of a mystery because the lead couldn't come off the bottom driving band as it is copper or aluminum check.

Have you recovered any boolits to check them for gas cutting?

[newton]

Okay, good to know the boolits aren't being sized down. I had that experience in my .303's. The brass is fairly thick and hadn't been annealed and I was full length sizing in RCBS dies that size down for optimistically small bullets of 0.311". My rifles want 0.315" boolits so pushing then into tight and stiff necks was actually sizing them down. I went to a Lee collet die with mandrel to leave case neck insides at 0.313" instead of 0.310" and annealed my brass. Made a huge difference in accuracy.

I'd guess that blow by occurs in the chamber as the boolit is leaving the brass.

The pressure is swelling the brass and I bet the neck has expanded before the boolit leaves so gas can start leaking past the boolit. If the throat is tight and short leade then it should seal but if a bit of clearance is there then gas must leak by the boolit before is seals in the bore.

I don't think you could get melted lead on the case mouth otherwise. I know it surprised me when it happened with my .45-70... but only with that IMR4227 load. I have to think that enough gas blew by to take the sharp edge of the boolit base and leave that on the case mouth. Maybe someone else has a better idea.

Now since your boolit is gas checked and powder coated it is a little more of a mystery because the lead couldn't come off the bottom driving band as it is copper or aluminum check.

Have you recovered any boolits to check them for gas cutting?

There is one other thing that could be happening. I wonder if the gas checks may not be just a hair bigger than the boolit, springing back a small amount after going through the sizer. That might give just enough clearence for a small amount of space for the gasses to leak by before the boolit is totally in the bore. I am going to try and anneal some checks for my next go around. I have never done it, or had to do it before.

I have my boolit seated out to where it is slighly being engraved by the lands when chambered. I have not chamber cast the gun, but the leade doesnt look too long so it seems that the boolit should be sealing the bore before it is too far out of the case. I am going to have to figure out some way of catching one of these guys just so we can take a look. I have not set up anything to do so yet. I'm not sure what the best way is.

[longbow]

Try 4 or 5 1 gallon water jugs and maybe a bucket filled with old rags or towels after the last one. If the boolit makes it that far the rags/towels towels should catch it. Its worked for me.

You may catch some in the water jugs but depending on boolit design they can penetrate quite a ways.

We have very fine sand in the 100 yard berm at the local range so it isn't bad at stopping boolits for recovery.

As long as most of the driving bands and base are more or less intact you will see if there is gas cutting.

Longbow

[newton]

Try 4 or 5 1 gallon water jugs and maybe a bucket filled with old rags or towels after the last one. If the boolit makes it that far the rags/towels towels should catch it. Its worked for me.

You may catch some in the water jugs but depending on boolit design they can penetrate quite a ways.

We have very fine sand in the 100 yard berm at the local range so it isn't bad at stopping boolits for recovery.

As long as most of the driving bands and base are more or less intact you will see if there is gas cutting.

Longbow

I will give it a try. I have heard that the Lee 310 sure is hard to stop. I know sand will stop it for sure, I just don't know if it will also disfigure the boolit enough to not be able to see. I'll try it both ways and post the results. I did make up a new batch of boolits that are harder than the last. I am not sure how much hardness I loose from the powder coating I do though.

[newton]

I got the new scope in and worked on that over the weekend. After taking off the base I am glad I decided to go ahead and bed it to the barrel. The base was only making contact on its two edges, and not the entire edge at that. While I know this is not a 'precision' rifle, there is a lot of unsupported room under the base and the potential for moisture to hide out under there also.

The next two pictures show the base and where it makes contact on the barrel if you were to flip it over on it.

211365

211366

So what I did was to put the base back on, taped off all around it with blue tape, took the base back off and coated the exposed barrel with johnsons paste wax. I also coated most of the base with the wax, but cleaned the very bottom of it off. I did coat the very edges of the underside of the base where it was making contact. That way, I could remove the bedding from that area, leaving the rest of the base to make contact. It should make more sense in the following picture.

211367

Now that entire grey area is making contact with the barrel, not just the edges of the base. I put a few small drops of the green locktight(the stuff used for press fits) on the bedding before putting it on the barrel, just to make everything nice and tight.

I know this is way overkill for the gun, but I had never done this before to any other gun and this was a good way to test it out. It works perfectly though and you can tell that the base is rock solid against the barrel now.

I mounted the new scope last night using a dab of the scotchcote electrical coating on the rings. I read up on it and it seems to be a really good way of securing a scope without damaging it. I feel that the whole setup is now as solid as it can be. I sure hope so. I wish I had got the burris to begin with and done all of this in the first place. I am not sure how many people have used burris scopes, but you can feel the difference between their quality and that of the cheaper ones. You can also see the difference when you shine a light down the tube and take a look around at the internals. There is no doubt in my mind that this scope will hold up to the recoil.

So now I am 100% confident in the mechanical side of things, just need to work on the load side. I'll be sorting boolits tonight and getting them ready for shooting either tomorrow or Wednesday. Hopefully I will be posting again with some nice pictures of some beautiful targets.

[Wagnerwerks]

Nice job!

[MT Gianni]

Another idea is there is no need for crimp on single shot loads. Just make sure you iron out any belling in the case mouth.

[OlDeuce]

Newton ...... Way Cool....Nice job... Your .44 is going to be Your go to Gun when your all done !!!!!! Ol Deuce

[newton]

Thanks guys. I had thought about not using a crimp, but I was not sure if it helps with the powder burn? I might try it just to see what happens.

[OlDeuce]

I have been told a crimp that is used in a single shot is good!.... each loaded round that is crimped will release the same (?) they say! and should help
for holding a tight group !!! Sounds good , may work better than I think........I try and do the Factory Crimp when I can ...

Ol Deuce

[charlie b]

At one time someone (elmer keith?) held that cartridges like the .44mag required a heavy crimp for proper burn of the magnum pistol powders. I always crimped revolver rounds just to make sure the heavy recoil did not upset the other rounds in the cylinder.

[fcvan]

I have enjoyed this thread and compared it to my own experience. I do not have a 44 rifle as my wife is the 44 shooter. I have a single shot 45 Colt, and a Vaquero also chambered 45 Colt. I had remarkable performance with 4227 and the loads were within 45 Colt+P specs. My rifle however has a color case hardened crescent steel but plate, remarkable efficient at transferring energy from the weapon the the shoulder with minimal loss of energy. Most fun load so far has been round ball over a mild charge of Bullseye. 900fps, 22lr quiet, devastating impact from a soft round ball.

[Wagnerwerks]

My pap had this as a truth in my manual I got from him.

[charlie b]

...My rifle however has a color case hardened crescent steel but plate, remarkable efficient at transferring energy from the weapon the the shoulder with minimal loss of energy....

ROFLMAO Nice description, but, you forgot about the blood trail from the shoulder when not mounted quite right. Kinda messes up tracking game. Is the blood mine or from the deer?

[newton]

I got to shoot yesterday. Not much time to play. Here are the peliminary results.

211631

I first shot 3 of the 20 grain loads. They were way low on the target board(not shown), of course, because they were the first shots with the new scope. They did not really group as well as I would have liked, maybe 3"-4", so I decided to adjust the scope and try 21 grains.

The first two shots were the ones almost touching, with that third out of the group. It was getting darker, and so I started to rush myself. I wanted to try some jacketed 240 grain that zero bullets sent me, so those were the group up high. With light running out even faster I tried 21.5 grains and went back to the Lee boolit. I did adjust the scope to bring the groups to center, but was intrigued by how much lower they shot than just a half grain lower charge.

Light nearly gone at this point I rushed in and loaded up 3 with 22 grains. I had not been seeing any pressure signs, and 22 grains is listed as a max charge on Hodgdons website for a 325 grain BTB cast boolit. I hurried back out to the table, got the crosshairs on the target, and pulled the trigger.

I felt a slight sting, then realized that I had not really settled in behind the gun, and with the failing light I was more focused on trying to see the target than I was on proper stance behind the gun - and I got bit by the burris. I really wanted to shoot the other two rounds, but I figured I should stop and stop the bleeding before continuing. I have never been bitten by a scope before, and I hope after this I have learned my lesson. Needless to say it was too dark to continue, and my pride was crushed enough that I was not sure if I could have continued successfully.

I can say that I think I was actually starting to see pressure signs with that one shot though. The primer is somewhat flattened, and I almost remember it being a little sticky coming out of the chamber. I was kind of in one of those stupidity shocks so I did not pay enough attention. I will take a picture of the case tonight, and I should have enough time after work to shoot the other two rounds - at least one more - to see what it is doing again.

I think that 22 will be too high though. I have never liked ridding the edge of pressures. It just seemed to be tightening up as I increased the charge. The 21.5 grain load is not that bad I guess. Just over 2" @ 100 yards. Maybe I was hoping that I could get closer to the 1" mark. Is that too much to ask for this gun and a cast boolit?

I was not seeing any lead on the case mouth though. So the harder boolits seem to be working better. I have a few more of the 240gr jacketed bullets to play with, but I want to hunt with the Lee boolits so thats what I am going to focus on. I only plan to hunt with this gun at a max, and I do mean absolute max in VERY limited circumstance, of 150 yards. Most of my shots are well under 100 yards.

Its my first big bore rifle, so I guess I could think my expectations might be too high.

Here are a few pictures of the gun. That is also the shooting table I have, which contributed to my new scar from the scope. I have told myself that I need to raise the level higher, and to scoot the board back some because of the way I have to sit to shoot - but I keep neglecting to do those things which really hurt with proper form.

211643

211644

[newton]

Well, after doing some reading I guess 2" might not be too bad for the gun at 100 yards.

I think I will sight the scope in at 1"-1.5" high at 50 yards. I am willing to bet at 50yd I will be holes touching. I guess most people start at the 50yd mark, then move out to 100 yards.

[newton]

Ok, I'm stumped. Not entirely, but enough to make me scratch my head. I got home yesterday and worked on my bench to make it better for getting in a proper position behind the gun. I really didn't move it much, but it was enough to make a difference in how it feels. I only mention it like this because I am trying to think of all the different changes from the night before.

After fixing the bench, I decided I might as well shoot those other two rounds I had loaded. So I sat down, made sure the gun was against my shoulder......and shot. Here is what I found when I went to look at the target.

211699

Here are the changes from the night before:
Bench sitting position
Temperature

I've seen POI changes before from holding the rifle different and temp changes, but this was an 11" POI change - straight up. To me that is incredible.

I suppose about the only thing I can think of is that I was holding it much tighter against my shoulder than the night before. Making sure it would not come back and hit me again.

The night before, as the powder charge increased, the POI started going lower. I contemplated that yesterday and came up with the reasoning that the boolit was leaving the barrel sooner, which meant a lower muzzle rise due to recoil. I have seen this happen before with shooting big bore pistols - albiet it was always at shorter ranges.

I normally try to let a rifle recoil naturally without holding it down. I learned this lesson from when I used to use a led sled type rest. I struggled for a while with oddball groups, then one day realized that the rifle was recoiling different from one group/day to another. Once I started using bags the odd groups stopped. However, while they might have been odd, they were not 11" apart.....

With that said, I do think it might be the 'big bore' nature of this gun which compounded things. Couple that with it being a really lightweight gun, and I can see all kinds of things going on. All the other rifles I have played with max of 30 caliber, max projectile of 200gr, and speeds are much faster. In the end, I am not going to put much stock in it. I would love to hear others idea's about it though.

The load is definitely too hot for my taste anyway. The last round opened the action. I am not sure if I did not have it locked in place fully or what, but to have the action open up after a shot was not something I would consider a good thing. I think I will stick with 21gr to 21.5gr of W296. It really seems like that is about what everyone else uses anyways, so there has to be something about it I would think. I think that I was seeing the 20gr load do better before because I was using softer boolits.

I think the take away with this is, once I find the load I am going to use to hunt with, I need to only practice/shoot from the types of positions I would in the field.

[Wagnerwerks]

I love shooting hot loads... Once in a while. For a good 44 mag hunting load, you don't need to be at max. I'm pretty sure I was right in the middle of the start and max charge of h110 on my last batch of bullets for my 1894 Marlin. They shot perfectly and chronoed right where they said they would. No need to shoot it to bits. :)

I've loved this thread and I'm pretty sure this will be my next rifle.

[newton]

I love shooting hot loads... Once in a while. For a good 44 mag hunting load, you don't need to be at max. I'm pretty sure I was right in the middle of the start and max charge of h110 on my last batch of bullets for my 1894 Marlin. They shot perfectly and chronoed right where they said they would. No need to shoot it to bits. :)

I've loved this thread and I'm pretty sure this will be my next rifle.

I would highly recommend the gun, and I’ll be getting more in other calibers.

I honestly probably should not have pushed it up to 22 grains. I don’t like hot rod loads much. Maybe like you, just one here and there.

I think that I’ll start back at the 20gr load and carefully work from there. I know it will give me the velocity I want.

Now that my accuracy expectations are reasonable I think I have a better idea of what I’m looking for. Eventually I’m gonna get some 300gr xtp to try. I’ve heard it’s the bullet for this gun.

I might try some regular lube boolits too. Never know if the powder coat is hurting, helping, or indifferent.

[newton]

Update from over the weekend. I have to say I am honestly back on the fence about this gun at this point. I still think its a good deal for what it is, but before someone rushes into it they should know what to expect from it. I read all the reviews, researched and looked for hours online, and convinced myself that I could make it an honest 1" @ 100yd gun - as if all the others were not doing something right. I just do not think that it is possible at this point. I feel(fickle feelings) frustrated that I cannot get it there.

We had a brutal cold snap come through over the weekend, but I did get out and did some testing at 50yds.

212002

I was not sure about where my scope would be at 50 yards, so I started with the lowest target for shooting. Used 21gr as the load. Turns out it hit the second target from the bottom. Decent group, I guess. A little under 1 1/2" for 4 shots. So I adjusted the scope, and loaded up some with 20gr just to rule it out. I shot the bottom target with that load. Obviously, it hated that. That is a horrible group at 50yds I would think.

So then I think let's try 21.5gr, just to see if it does a little better. The second target from the top was that group. It was a little bigger than the 21gr group, so I thought hey I am on to something lets just play this 21gr group out and see whats up.

So I go and load up some more 21gr and shoot the top target. I am not sure if you can read my numbers I wrote, stating what shot was what, but what happened is I started seeing the verticle stringing with shots 1-5, and then full bore open group shot 6-9. I decided to stop there and do some research. My scope is good and tight to the gun. The rounds 'seem' fine, loaded with care and making sure things are uniform. So it made me think gun.

I took the gun apart that night and it did turn out that when you set the forearm on the barrel you could rock it back and forth over a significant hump in the plastic. While barrel pressure usually only effects lightweight barrels, and more so when they heat up, I figured it might also effect this gun because of different ammounts of pressure being applied if you do not rest the gun the exact way each and every time you shoot. If it is just making contact with the pillars of the forearm, then the pressure from the shooting bag should not effect it as much. My theory anyways. So I spent the night and next morning opening up the forearm to where it just sits on the two pillars and nothing else.

During my research, I found that there are a few things that can make the verticle stringing. Forearm being the main one, but inconsistent headspace being another. I began to wonder if it was a good thing to use seat the boolit long and force it into the grooves with the closing of the action. I'm undecided about that aspect to tell you the truth. But what I did, while I had the barrel off and the extractor was loose, was to test the fit of the round and find an COAL that did not use the closeing of the action to seat the cartridge all the way. Of course, this does mean that there could be some inconsistency of boolit pressure against the lands - depending on how much powder coating is on the nose.

I had a few moments yesterday afternoon, even though it was brutally cold, to try out the new 'floating' stock and COAL. Since I was seating deeper, by around .03" I decided to drop my charge down some.

212003

I did load one round at the 21gr level before I thought that I might drop it down some. I shot it first and it ended up way high and left of the POA. Then I shot the 20.5gr load and got the two touching with one right of them an 1.5". I was somewhat disapointed that I had that one flier like that after all the work I did with the stock. I wanted to see what they did at 100 yards so I shot some and it was way open, like over 3" or so and just very dissapointing. I did not take a picture. I also decided to see if I could hit a steel plate out at 125yd with them, and while I did, the groups were even wider and sporadic - not to mention the drop......

However, I was not trying to have a really tight 125yd gun in the first place. So I put that behind me and had a little time left so I decided to play with some 240gr jacketed bullets I have. I loaded them up with 23.5gr and shot that little group you see above the lower right diamond. Blew me away, hair over 1/2" at 50 yards. That is the kind of thing I am looking for. So I decided to see what 100yds was like with them. I got right at 2", with the first two being 3/4" apart and the third kind of horizontaly off to the left. That could of deffinitely been me, as by this time I had been in the cold for a little while and the sun was going down fast.

No pictures, sorry, but I am going to test those again and I will take pictures for sure. Point is, now I am beginning to really question the 300gr boolit. Is it me? Is it the gun not liking the boolit? I have been casting and shooting cast for a while. I have NEVER had this hard of a time working up a good load for a gun with a boolit. I have worked on some seemingly tough to do rounds, .223 being one, and never failed to be able to produce a good shooter. This one is really getting me. Is it the nature of a big bore rifle?

I like working up loads for guns, but at the same time, I like to be progressing when doing so. With this gun, it just seems like I do the whole one step forward two steps back. It is so erratic. I am gonna pull my hair out if I go to test those jacketed bullets again and they fly all over the place. Sorry for the long rant, I'll stop here for now.

[newton]

I had a lightbulb moment. What if I am pushing these lee boolits too hard? I still need to try and trap some one of these days, but what if I am just pushing them harder than they can take. I suppose I could try to cast some out of pure lino or something, but the other side of it is to try and slow them down considerably. I'm thinking I will try some loads with Unique and just see how they react.

I did try some loads already with Unique, early on with those softer boolits. But I did not try to actually develop a load with it. I wanted to try and reach a certain velocity, but now I am wondering if that is blinding me to actually trying to develop a load the gun likes. Something to think about for sure.

[500Linebaughbuck]

try unique and 2400. it could be your gun doesn't like like h110/win296.

[Rick Hodges]

I'm going to suggest that you slow down and make one change at a time...and shoot more than three shots to determine what your gun is doing. One three shot group means absolutely nothing. You change amount of powder, change scope setting and mountings, change bedding, change bullets....all based on one or two 3 shot groups. What are you learning by making multiple changes at once?

I will say that my CVA Scout2 in .44 mag. likes a firm crimp with both WW296 and 2400. It shoots more consistently crimped, as evidenced in chronograph readings and group size, than uncrimped. I have only used 240gr JHP and 235gr. GC cast. Mine is not a MOA rifle...about double that...perhaps a little better with jwords and a little worse with cast, so far. I have not spent a lot of time trying to improve on that. Both of those loads will do what I need them to do...take a deer out to 150 yds.

[newton]

try unique and 2400. it could be your gun doesn't like like h110.

It may not with cast, seems to with the jacketed though. It is interesting for sure.

[newton]

I'm going to suggest that you slow down and make one change at a time...and shoot more than three shots to determine what your gun is doing. One three shot group means absolutely nothing. You change amount of powder, change scope setting and mountings, change bedding, change bullets....all based on one or two 3 shot groups. What are you learning by making multiple changes at once?

I will say that my CVA Scout2 in .44 mag. likes a firm crimp with both WW296 and 2400. It shoots more consistently crimped, as evidenced in chronograph readings and group size, than uncrimped. I have only used 240gr JHP and 235gr. GC cast. Mine is not a MOA rifle...about double that...perhaps a little better with jwords and a little worse with cast, so far. I have not spent a lot of time trying to improve on that. Both of those loads will do what I need them to do...take a deer out to 150 yds.

I have actually been shooting multiple 4 shot groups, just in order to rule out the odd flier. I also have been only changing one thing, then going back out to try loads again. That may be lost in the translation. I do shoot 3 shot groups when I find a load that 'seems' to work though, just to test and see if it was a fluke the first time around.

I also did read up on some of your old posts about your experience with the CVA. It helped me to keep my expectations in check with this gun. In all reality, other than the odd fliers I am getting, it seems that my loads/gun is shooting about as well as any other CVA 44 mag out there.

One thing that I have read, a few different times(from other locations), is how well it responds to the 300gr xtp. I might just break down and buy/try some for experimental sake. I really want to just shoot cast boolits in this thing for hunting. The thing that interests me about that is I can imagine the xtp is not really traveling that fast. I have not found anyone that has measured velocity with it yet with the touted accuracy of it, but I have found where some have shot factory ammo with the 300gr xtp and it seems to be well under 1500fps. One was recording around 1300 fps with factory ammo.

So it did get me to thinking that I may be above the true accuracy node. I have witnessed this before in other smaller bore guns. I have hit a good accuracy node, gone above it with wide groups, then even further with seemingly tighter groups - but not as tight as the lower velocity ones. It deffinetly makes me wonder.

[500Linebaughbuck]

I'm going to suggest that you slow down and make one change at a time...and shoot more than three shots to determine what your gun is doing. One three shot group means absolutely nothing. You change amount of powder, change scope setting and mountings, change bedding, change bullets....all based on one or two 3 shot groups. What are you learning by making multiple changes at once?

I will say that my CVA Scout2 in .44 mag. likes a firm crimp with both WW296 and 2400. It shoots more consistently crimped, as evidenced in chronograph readings and group size, than uncrimped. I have only used 240gr JHP and 235gr. GC cast. Mine is not a MOA rifle...about double that...perhaps a little better with jwords and a little worse with cast, so far. I have not spent a lot of time trying to improve on that. Both of those loads will do what I need them to do...take a deer out to 150 yds.

i agree with that.

i don't have a 44 mag rifle but i do have a 500 linebaugh rifle. i have to use a heavy crimp on 450gr lfn gc and 16.0gr of hs-6. i used a light crimp and medium crimp but i still got burned powder in my barrel. a heavy crimp resolved that and it shrunk my group(about 1/8" less). i would also go with alliant 2400. it may not beat you up so much, like h110/w296 does. i use my ruger sbh in 44 mag and 2400 just because it does beat me as bad. hs-6 is a good one too. in case you are wondering, i am a sissy when recoil comes around. :mrgreen: recoil never bothered me, until i discovered my age:bigsmyl2:. thats the day when my shoulder hurts, my knees hurt and i hurt. :bigsmyl2: but i still love my big bores and downloading, gotta love downloading!!

[500Linebaughbuck]

So it did get me to thinking that I may be above the true accuracy node. I have witnessed this before in other smaller bore guns. I have hit a good accuracy node, gone above it with wide groups, then even further with seemingly tighter groups - but not as tight as the lower velocity ones. It deffinetly makes me wonder.

i shoot a tc encore in 444 marlin and a 280gr wfn gc with 25.5gr of 2400 and a tuft of dacron, it will go 3/4"+/- at 100 yards (thank you larry gibson), it will go 1700fps. i've used to use a heavy charge of rel 7 but for some reason[smilie=1: i like 2400. the 444 is a far cry from 2300fps to 1700fps.

[charlie b]

Have you tried the old lever action 'trick' when shooting from bags? Hold the forearm in your hand and rest your hand on the bags. It is a known method for levers, especially those that have the magazine tube under the barrel. Not sure why it works. Less upward pressure on the barrel, damping out barrel/forearm vibrations, ???

[newton]

Have you tried the old lever action 'trick' when shooting from bags? Hold the forearm in your hand and rest your hand on the bags. It is a known method for levers, especially those that have the magazine tube under the barrel. Not sure why it works. Less upward pressure on the barrel, damping out barrel/forearm vibrations, ???

I have not actually. I had thought about putting a soft pillow type thing under it. Maybe a beanie hat or something. I might just have to try the hand thing.

[newton]

I am in need of the wisdom from those who work on/with break open rifles a lot. I have come to the conclusion that there is definitely something wrong with the gun itself. Since these single shots are pretty simple pieces of equipment, the only thing I can think of is the frame and barrel being loose when locked up.

I went out last night to just try a little higher load with those jacketed bullets and the POI at 100yds was ~4" to the right. I thought it could just be the change in how much powder I used, so I went back to the load that I used on Monday. Exact same load. It shot ~4" to the right, and another ~4" higher. A complete POI shift from Monday. It grouped ok(what little I did shoot), but I cannot live with a gun that changes POI that much.

One thing that has been happening more and more is that the action will pop open after a shot. Yes, I have thoroughly taken it apart and cleaned it - making sure to not have ANY lube on where the frame locks up. It is dry as a bone. I first noticed it opening after a few of the heaviest loads I tried with the big 310gr boolits. Now it is happening with moderate loads using the 240gr jacketed bullets.

If I hold the gun by the grip with one hand, I can shake it back and forth and feel(and even see a little) barrel moving in the frame. It does not really do it with an up/down motion.

I took the scope and mount off. It was rock solid, nothing loose. I am positive it is not that end of things. I did try putting a soft folded cloth under the forearm and even using my hand under it. POI shifted a little - but not 4", more like an 1" or so.

I have 'free floated' the barrel aside from the two pillars it rests on. But along with that, this POI shift is not a hot/cold barrel issue. So the pressure on the barrel is the same from shot to shot - definitely no different than it was on Monday.

The ONLY thing I can think of at this point is that because the barrel moves in the frame, that with each shot - depending on how much it recoils and such - it changes how and where the cartridge head is supported. The scope is mounted to the barrel, so its not moving it. The only thing I can see changing is how the barrel is fitting to the frame.

I am going to get ahold of CVA today. My question is can a difference in how the case head is supported cause such significant POI shifts? Is there something else I am missing?

[RustyReel]

I have been toying with the idea of getting one of these in 44 Mag for several months now. All of the on-line reviews I have read have been very positive. However, after reading about your experience I think I'm going to pass...

Good luck with this thing and I'm going to keep track of your progress.

[newton]

One thing about CVA is they are quick to get back with you. I have already heard back from them. They asked if I am using hand loaded or factory ammo. They said they see this often with hand loaded ammo. I really question this myself. I am not sure what they mean by "this" in reference to what they "see". Are they talking about the action opening/moving side to side, the lack of grouping, or the POI shift.

We shall see what they say. I asked them to recommend a factory ammunition to try. I will break down and purchase a box just to see, but as I told them, I do not see how factory ammunition is going to not pop open the action and make the POI shift go away.

In other words, if I am loading well within 'normal' range and loading rounds the exact same(most people would agree that carefully hand loaded ammo is MUCH more precise than factory stuff), then how is the factory ammo going to do away with my issues?

I could see if I was just having trouble getting a group down to decent size. But my issues are I get small groups and large ones, they are in one spot on the target one time - then move the next.

I have never had this happen with any other gun. I have had a few guns that took a long time to nail down a good shooting load - but I have never experienced what I am with this gun.

[newton]

I have been toying with the idea of getting one of these in 44 Mag for several months now. All of the on-line reviews I have read have been very positive. However, after reading about your experience I think I'm going to pass...

Good luck with this thing and I'm going to keep track of your progress.

I honestly hope that its a fluke. I read all the reviews I could find also, and same as you they were positive. There are not many online reviews for the gun though(compared to a lot of other 44 mag rifles). I think that at 50yards or so the gun would be considered "acceptable" by most. The POI shifts do not seem to be as pronounced up close. I was tickled to death when I saw that one group with the jacketed rounds, and then I honestly thought I had it nailed when I saw they were decent at 100yards. I figured I could work with that.

But then to go out last night, with the exact loads I shot before, and have it hit so far from the point it was hitting before.......that just made my stomach turn.

[newton]

I got another reply to my email.


Thank you for taking the time to contact us.



I would suggest running some factory ammunition through the rifle since that is what they are built around. We typically shoot 300 grain Hornady ammunition. Anything 300 grain should group well out of the gun. Sometimes the lighter stuff doesn’t group quite as tight.



Also, please be sure you are firing the rifle from a sand bag which allows it to freely recoil. Lead sleds do not produce great results with our break action rifles.

I replied back with asking if the factory ammunition was going to correct the POI shift and the mechanical problems this gun is having. I think I might have to call them and actually speak with someone. I really think that they feel like I am griping about group size. When, in fact, I am griping about the randomness of where the groups are ending up - plus the mechanical issues.

Is it truly logical to think that factory ammunition will actually eliminate the opening of the barrel after a shot, and the POI shift?

I know on the surface people have to wonder if I actually know what I am doing reloading the ammunition. I could see how ammunition that is thrown together, without care, could cause some really wide swings in the size of a group and it changing the POI on the target. All I know is that I have never had this happen before, I am not that new to handloading, and I have been very diligent to put together uniform handloads.

I am trying to not let it affect me. I have read enough on here about people having issues with all sorts of different firearms for various reasons. It just stinks that I get to be one of the "lucky" ones that now have to deal with it. I was so looking forward to having fun with this gun.

[newton]

And yet another reply from my double checking with them that they understand the full set of issues. I have to say, I am pleased with their responsiveness. It was one reason I did go ahead and decide to buy the CVA, I have always heard they were good about customer service - I just hoped I would never have to use it.


Thank you for taking the time to contact us.



No sir, I feel I am fully grasping what you are trying to communicate. However, you are experiencing a POI shift, inaccuracy, and your breech is popping open. All of this is under your hand loads and no factory loads. All of these symptoms are synonymous with hand loads based on my experience in the warranty department for the last two years. When we build and chamber our rifles we do it according to SAAMI with one particular brand of reamers. The only ammunition we recommend shooting out of our rifles is factory ammunition and it is what we fall back on when the rifles aren’t performing how they are supposed to. You have yet to try any factory ammunition which in my opinion is causing a false indicator of an issue on your end since you have only tried your hand loads. If you were to send that rifle back to us we would literally load it with factory Hornady ammunition and we will shoot it at 100 yards. I’m definitely not doubting you and do not think anything malicious is going on but it’s hard to establish a base line for a warranty repair when the gun has never been fired with factory ammunition.



If you insist on sending it in for repair we will still create you an RMA to have the rifle looked at. I don’t want you to think we are putting you off. We are simply trying to provide some useful information so you are not without your rifle for extended periods of time. Our current lead time for repairs is roughly 7 weeks and growing daily. Over the next couple of months a more realistic time frame would be nearly 10 weeks or so based on the past years repairs.



Thank you,

I am going to buy some factory Hornady 300 grain ammunition to shoot in this gun. It sickens me to have to do it, but at the same time I would hate to have them send the gun back and say that it shot fine with factory ammunition - and me not have a basis to refute it.

Since I started handloading, and especially since I started casting, I have only bought factory ammunition for one gun - and that was because I got it on sale and was needing some brass anyways.

[newton]

Just so you all are kept in the loop, here is the last email I got from CVA. I'll be sure to update you all(and CVA) when I get done testing factory ammo. I think I will get a box of 240gr(of some sort that uses the hornady xtp's) along with the box of 300grain Hornady Custom ammo. Makes me sick to think I am going to spend over $1 per round - however, I will take the opportunity to take apart one of the rounds to see what their powder looks like and what volume they use. Should be useful for future things.


Thank you for taking the time to contact us.



The group sizes will vary depending on many different factors. Id say anything from roughly 1.5’’-2.5’’ would be acceptable out of a break action rifle shooting factory ammunition. Guns will differ as well. Some guns will shoot the lighter bullets while others prefer something heavier. Generally speaking, the heavier bullets will group an inch to an inch and a half tighter than the lighter bullets.



If the factory ammunition does not fix the issue simply respond to this email chain and we will be happy to take care of you.



Thank you,

For reference, I asked what an acceptable group was if they were doing the testing.

[newton]

After some rest this weekend, I think I may have had been fighting a virus on Friday, known by the name 'footinmouth'. I am not 100% sure just yet, but I did start going back over the last months testing and it could be possible that my issues are all directly related to my handloads.

What I did this weekend was load up the few remaining 310's I had, and even tried some of the Lee 240gr SWC's with Unique. I shot the 310's at 50 yards. What I did was to load a round, and then kinda lay the gun on one of its sides, and 'pat' it to try and simulate the barrel to frame movement. Then I did the same thing on the opposite side, just to see if it would change POI/group size. If that makes sense. It is the only thing(besides the action opening up) that would be gun related inaccuracy.

What I found was a nice little group, right around 1", same POI for both side 'pats'. It was obviously not an extensive test, but it was interesting to say the least. I am pretty sure that whatever play there is in the barrel to frame fit is not the cause of the POI shift.

I then shot the 240gr SWC with 10gr Unique, and the first couple of hits at 50yd were on top of each other with the next 1" away. I tried it out at 100yd just for fun, and they grouped ~3". Very interesting I thought. Went back to 50yd just for the heck of it and shot a 6.5" group - which made me scratch my head.

I really started thinking about it all. There are so many different things that could be happening to cause this. Brass is all the same, primers are all the same, powder is all the same - but the boolits may not be. Maybe a gas check is coming off mid flight? Maybe there is enough of the boolits being out of round, or otherwise unbalanced on their axis?

Normally, I would not think unbalanced would affect things so much, but I came across this video(which has been previously posted in a thread on this site about unbalanced bullets) and it really made me think hard. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C9Dylxy3zJc

Around 1:34 into the video the guy shoots a round that he pretty much just filed the nose off flat. I am sure there is some unevenness to it, but it's flatter than not. More or less turned it into a 22 wad cutter. That particular bullet completely curved out of the path. I am not sure anyone knows of an absolute why, but my immediate thought was that it is due to air resistance on the nose.

So who/what is to say that my 310's are not slightly unballanced, and then coupled with the big flat nose, they are being erratic. I am usually pretty good with culling my boolits, but at the same time, I have found that in my other guns a boolit does not have to be perfect in order to get decent accuracy. The difference here is that I have never shot this large a boolit at rifle velocity, at long range. And especially one with this type of profile. ALL of these things could be adding up and truly causing the issues I am seeing.

Anyways, those are just some of my thoughts over the weekend. With all that said, it's not going to supprise me if I shoot those Hornady factory rounds and I get good results. Its just going to make me rethink how I am going to approach handloading for this gun.

I still don't know how the factory rounds will fix the action poping open after a shot. Maybe that will be something I can fix without having to send it back to CVA.

[Wagnerwerks]

Good luck. I'm still thinking this will be my next gun. I have a single shot 357 at traditions right now but I think this would be a great addition. Have you slugged the barrel? maybe I missed it.

[newton]

Good luck. I'm still thinking this will be my next gun. I have a single shot 357 at traditions right now but I think this would be a great addition. Have you slugged the barrel? maybe I missed it.

I did slug it. It came out right around .429".

I'm going to try and be optimistic, saying that its all my handloads fault and not the gun. I'll know more in a week or less. I am not going to shoot today because of the high wind we are experiencing. I want to make sure that wont be a potential issue.

[Rick Hodges]

I am concerned with your action opening. I have the Scout2 and two Wolf muzzle loaders (they have the same action as the Hunter). Neither of them are loose side to side nor have they demonstrated any tendency to open up on their own upon firing. My 44 mag 240 XTP load is very near max of WW296 and it has never tried to open itself upon firing. That should not be happening.

[500Linebaughbuck]

.

I still don't know how the factory rounds will fix the action poping open after a shot.

that is a big concern!!!! what loads are you using?

[Wagnerwerks]

Yeah. I just looked at one of these at the store again. This is a very standard issue break action. There has to be something wrong to make it pop open. Loads that aren't over max being the issue makes no sense.

[charlie b]

I have to say that CVA is being totally up front with you. From the mfg point of view hand loads tell NOTHING. They have no idea how well you do the loading or what condition your bullets and cases are in. Or even how you really control the amount of powder, which primers you really use, etc, etc. They are trying to help you. Let them. Clean the gun well. Go out and buy a box of factory 300gn ammo and fire it from a sandbag rest (as stated in their email). Take a picture of your target. Include the box and lot number of the ammo you fire (I'd even send them the rest of the cartridges from the box).

If it is still messed up then they will give you an RMA and they will shoot the rifle to see if they can duplicate your problem.

[doghawg]

Newton
Some of your loads were at the upper limits and in post #24 you stated ending up "well above any published data" and I respectfully wonder if that rifle wasn't subjected to some pretty high pressure? Would that explain the action popping open?

[longbow]

Yeah... I'd be more than a little concerned about the action opening up for sure!

The only time I have ever had that happen was with an H&R .58 cal. muzzleloader I accidentally double charged. It didn't hurt the gun but it did break open that one time and it did hurt my shoulder! That was a massive overload in my case so no wonder the gun opened up. If you don't know, the H&R Huntsman was an early "in-line" muzzleloader built on a single shot shotgun frame.

[newton]

I am concerned with your action opening. I have the Scout2 and two Wolf muzzle loaders (they have the same action as the Hunter). Neither of them are loose side to side nor have they demonstrated any tendency to open up on their own upon firing. My 44 mag 240 XTP load is very near max of WW296 and it has never tried to open itself upon firing. That should not be happening.

That's good to know. I did not think that the side to side movement was right. Just to be clear about it, I find the action is open after I fire. Most of the time its just a little. It's not like it is blowing open and bleeding gasses backward. Best I can tell, its most likely a result of the bullet leaving the barrel kind of recoil. Otherwise, there would be significant gasses being blown back.

At first, I thought the latch might be being pressed by the front bag, but its definitely not.



that is a big concern!!!! what loads are you using?

I would call them upper end but below max. I at one time went above what Lyman listed in their cast manual book with IMR4227. But they also were seating their boolits much deeper than I am. I have been loading under and up to max using Hodgdon's data for a 325 grain BTB LFN GC boolit using W296. I did exceed their IMR4227 max one time, but it was just a velocity/pressure sign test I was doing. Literally one shot to see what was going on. I did not have any pressure signs with that load, but did not like the idea of dancing over the line.




Yeah. I just looked at one of these at the store again. This is a very standard issue break action. There has to be something wrong to make it pop open. Loads that aren't over max being the issue makes no sense.

This is my thought, but I am trying to be optimistic. lol

I think the action will open when I try the factory rounds. But at the same time I get that for all they know I am some dumb backwoods drug addict that has no idea about loading but stole some equipment and decided to try - and now blame them for an inferior product.......

[newton]

I have to say that CVA is being totally up front with you. From the mfg point of view hand loads tell NOTHING. They have no idea how well you do the loading or what condition your bullets and cases are in. Or even how you really control the amount of powder, which primers you really use, etc, etc. They are trying to help you. Let them. Clean the gun well. Go out and buy a box of factory 300gn ammo and fire it from a sandbag rest (as stated in their email). Take a picture of your target. Include the box and lot number of the ammo you fire (I'd even send them the rest of the cartridges from the box).

If it is still messed up then they will give you an RMA and they will shoot the rifle to see if they can duplicate your problem.

I couldnt agree more. This is exactly my thoughts and what I plan to do. I just had one of those stupid moments last Friday and could not understand why they would not just see things my way - but then realized its impossible for them to since they are not at my house.

[newton]

Newton
Some of your loads were at the upper limits and in post #24 you stated ending up "well above any published data" and I respectfully wonder if that rifle wasn't subjected to some pretty high pressure? Would that explain the action popping open?

Yes. The only published data for the Lee 310 with IMR4227 is the Lyman cast manual. I do not have it in front of me, but I want to say they max out around 19grains?

I went up to 22 grains, in half grain increments, shooting single shots over a chronograph. When I reached that 22 grain mark I did not go any higher, but that was the first time I did have the action pop open.

So it is probable that the rifle was subjected to higher than the SAAMI spec, but not on a repetitive basis, and likely not too much over the spec. I am not trying to make excuses because I really did think about that maybe being a cause. But when you think about things logically, a few rounds that go a few thousand PSI over max should not permenantly cause harm to a firearm. If that is the case, then it is a very weak action. I am pretty sure they proof guns to a much higher level.

I could see if I had gone over max using a fast pistol powder. Those things act very erratically. But I was using the very slow end of powders for this cartridge.

[newton]

Yeah... I'd be more than a little concerned about the action opening up for sure!

The only time I have ever had that happen was with an H&R .58 cal. muzzleloader I accidentally double charged. It didn't hurt the gun but it did break open that one time and it did hurt my shoulder! That was a massive overload in my case so no wonder the gun opened up. If you don't know, the H&R Huntsman was an early "in-line" muzzleloader built on a single shot shotgun frame.

Interesting for sure. When it popped open that first time, even though I did not have any other pressure signs, I figured that my testing was done at that level. But as it started doing it more and more - that's when it became anoying. At one point I realized that some oil had worked its way onto the locking mechanism. After I thouroughly took it apart, cleaned everything, it happened much less.

I'll try to get a picture of the locking points. They seem to look normal to me? I have only worked with a few other single shot Rossi guns before.

[Rick Hodges]

My Lyman manual shows loads up to 300 gr. cast for the 44 mag with 4227...starting load 16.5 max 19gr. That is a total spread of 2.5gr. You loaded 3 grains over that with a heavier boolit? That would be a massive overload.
Do what CVA asks and let them look it over.

[newton]

My Lyman manual shows loads up to 300 gr. cast for the 44 mag with 4227...starting load 16.5 max 19gr. That is a total spread of 2.5gr. You loaded 3 grains over that with a heavier boolit? That would be a massive overload.
Do what CVA asks and let them look it over.

Right. I do not have the manual in front of me right now, but I am pretty sure that their COAL is much shorter than what I was using. Having a longer COAL significantly reduces pressures in this caliber versus a smaller caliber.

I am also pretty sure you will find that they recommend a much lower max charge for H110/W296 than what most people use, on a regular/repeated basis, for the 300 grain cast. That is not to say I think we should just throw loading manuals out the window and not pay attention to them - I'm just stating that common sense is a must when it comes to handloading.

I know that the Lyman manual is a good book to go off of, but its not the only source of information out there and is only specific to what they used - what they used exactly.

I use the Lyman cast bullet manual more than any other source 90% of the time, but this time I used multiple sources of information and worked up the loads using time-tested procedures.

The single load - single load - that I went over 3 grains(according to the specific data in the Lyman cast manual, not other manuals) did not produce ANY pressure signs. I did not go any higher simply because I did not want to and I was already compressing the load.

So to say it was a "massive overload" is simply speculation. I could be wrong on the points about what your Lyman manual states. I will take a picture of mine when I get home tonight and post it here. I just remember finding a lot of discrepancy in what they recommend vs what powder companies recommend the max being, besides what a lot of people use for charges.

One nice thing about the 44 magnums is that it is pretty popular so there is a lot of tried and true data to research from.

Here is some data I pulled from Hodgdons site -

212493

As you can see, they are showing a 325 grain cast boolit with a charge of 4227 over 2 grains more than the Lyman manual. I went 1 more grain more than that, with a lighter boolit. I am more than positive that while I might have been a little over pressure I was not massively over pressure.

[OlDeuce]

Wow.........How is your CVA grouping with those tall charges ????? Ol Deuce

[longbow]

I wonder if the locking lug is fully engaging? Not exactly sure what the CVA system is like but other break action single shots I've seen tend to use a "door latch" type of lug with a taper/wedge shape locking into a lug below the barrel.

If that movable "latch" isn't fully engaging then it may be slipping of the fixed lug under the barrel without a lot of recoil.

Can you check it to see if it is not fully engaging? Maybe some burrs or something?

There has to be a good reason the gun is opening up at recoil and those actions are so simple it should be fairly obvious what is wrong.

Just kinda thinking out loud... in type that is.

Longbow

[Wagnerwerks]

That's the style they are.

[newton]

Wow.........How is your CVA grouping with those tall charges ????? Ol Deuce

It groups the best when I am at near max. When I try the low level stuff it does not like it at all.

I had a few boolits hand picked and decided to try the Lyman charge of 19 grains. It made a 4” group at 100 yards. Tried the 21 grain charge I have come to see groups the best, and it made a nice sub 2” group with 3 shots, but when I tapped on the side of the action before one shot it was 2” further outside of the group. This testing was done today. I hope to get the factory ammo tomorrow.

Needless to say, with over 200 rounds down the tube I can confidently say it likes the boolits pushed hard. But it still seems that the movement in the action might be the weakness. The testing today was at 100 yards.

[newton]

I wonder if the locking lug is fully engaging? Not exactly sure what the CVA system is like but other break action single shots I've seen tend to use a "door latch" type of lug with a taper/wedge shape locking into a lug below the barrel.

If that movable "latch" isn't fully engaging then it may be slipping of the fixed lug under the barrel without a lot of recoil.

Can you check it to see if it is not fully engaging? Maybe some burrs or something?

There has to be a good reason the gun is opening up at recoil and those actions are so simple it should be fairly obvious what is wrong.

Just kinda thinking out loud... in type that is.

Longbow

I’ll try to get a picture of it. Interesting thing today was it never opened when I shot. I wiped my finger across the barrrl lug after each shot to make sure it was clean, and I open/closed it very forcefully a couple times before shooting.

I read a lot about the Handi rifles today, because not much info is online dealing with the cva. They all talked about a firm closure and making sure the surfaces were dry. It will be interesting to see if this trend continues. I’ll keep it up with the factory ammo just to rule things out.

Honestly, I’m almost just tired. I hate to give up, and I have not completely yet, but if someone made me an offer I couldn’t refuse I’d just assume get rid of the gun. I wanted it for a deer woods gun, and at this point I’m not feeling very confident in it considering it is so temperamental.

[dougader]

Just for the heck of it, buy the cheapest box of factory ammo at a local shop and see how it goes.... white box Winchester 240 grain or whatever. You're still puttering about and haven't yet done what the makers of the weapon have suggested.

I mean, what if the factory stuff shoots sub MOA, then what? If it doesn't, ship it in to be looked over by the techs at CVA.

Do the simple thing first.

Oh, another thought though... is your scope still firmly attached? No moving about? I had that happen on a soft shooting Ruger 10/22 once.

[newton]

Just for the heck of it, buy the cheapest box of factory ammo at a local shop and see how it goes.... white box Winchester 240 grain or whatever. You're still puttering about and haven't yet done what the makers of the weapon have suggested.

I mean, what if the factory stuff shoots sub MOA, then what? If it doesn't, ship it in to be looked over by the techs at CVA.

Do the simple thing first.

Oh, another thought though... is your scope still firmly attached? No moving about? I had that happen on a soft shooting Ruger 10/22 once.

I'm actually going to be trying the Hornady Custom ammo with 300 grain XTP - that is what CVA specifically said to try, not just any ammo, and specifically not 240 grain. They did say that some guns might like the 240 grain, but that they specifically chamber their guns for the 300 grain xtp. I'm not puttering about it, just have not been able to get by the store to pick it up and have the time to shoot it. I have a full time job, it allows me on here a lot, but not the freedom to go shoot my guns unfortunately. :)

The only reason I get to shoot the other stuff is because I have it at home already, so when I get off work and only have a little bit of daylight left I run a few rounds through it.

The scope is rock solid. I have zero doubts about it being the issue.

I know its hard to convey what a gun is exactly like over the internet - I am not always the best at using the right words - but after reading up on the Handi rifles yesterday I know that the movement in my gun is not ok. Its a issue that happens with break actions and its a significant cause of inaccuracy. It is said that a .001" ammount of movement will present itself with up to 1" of shot impact movement. I know I have more play than that, I just do not know how to measure it.

[newton]

I took a picture of the Lee data from the Lyman manual.

212589

They are seating out further than what I first thought. I am out just a little more than that, about 5-7 thousandths. But when you look at their max charge of W296 is, you see that 90% of people use 1 grain or more - on a regular basis. I tried 19 grains last night and it was not anywhere near good. I know I have tried it in the past, but I just had to one more time.



Here is the picture of the gun's latch and shelf. Just in case you all are wondering, the gun is coated in eezox. I picked it up to shoot yesterday and it was rusting pretty good. I know that it happens with these types of guns, and its cosmetic, but I figured letting it sit with some oil on it for a day or so might help. Needless to say, if someone is a stickler about surface rust on a gun you will have to be very OCD about the steel on this gun. But I digress, I just wanted to point that out in case someone was to say "look, there is your problem, you have oil over everything". I will do a thourough cleaning of it before I go to shoot again.

212594

212595




Last, but not least of interest to me, is how much soot I am beginning to see on my brass after the shot. It has not always been like this, seems to be getting progressively worse. I am not sure what to make of it. These brass cases were shot with 21 grains of W296.

212596


I've had soot on cases before, but usually its a sign of low pressure. Once I start bumping up the charge the soot goes away. I have shot quite a few rounds now with that 21 grain charge, and in the beginning there was no soot visible - and now there is a significant ammount. Is this something people have seen before?

[500Linebaughbuck]

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?272942-Pressure-signs-in-rifle-cases

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?341378-Could-I-get-an-opinion-on-primer-cratering

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?150265-Need-advice-with-cratered-primers-vs-pressure-issues&highlight=cratered+primers


with a 310gr fn gc and 21gr of win296 you are way above load levels.

[newton]

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?272942-Pressure-signs-in-rifle-cases

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?341378-Could-I-get-an-opinion-on-primer-cratering

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?150265-Need-advice-with-cratered-primers-vs-pressure-issues&highlight=cratered+primers


with a 310gr fn gc and 21gr of win296 you are way above load levels.

Acording to Hodgdon I could shoot the 325 BTB cast boolit with 22 grains of W296 and stay under SAAMI pressures. It all boils down to the specific gun, boolit, lot of powder, lot of primers, case, temp, etc - and specific pressure recording devices - before someone can say with certainty that someone is way above pressure limits.

Thanks for the links, but I am kind of at a loss as to what they are for? Are they meant to show me how to read pressure, or meant to show me that I cannot read pressure based on visual things? I've always just gone by the rule that you work up to max loads that are listed in reloading manuals. However, just because they list a certain weight for a max load does not mean your firearm can handle it - nor does it mean it cannot handle more.

I'll still state the fact that when you search for data from people who have loaded the Lee C430-310 in the 44 magnum with W296/H110, you will find that the most common load is 21gr - 21.5gr. I know that not all guns are built to handle the same load, but if it was a massive over pressure situation then I am pretty sure we would have many people warning of such - not listing it for the load they use.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?45158-Load-recomendations-Lee-C430-310

Now, maybe it is over SAAMI spec pressure in my particular case. Who knows for sure? I have followed standard loading proceedures working up to it - I did not just load 21 grains into a case and go at it. It is the only charge that groups the boolits good, even though the groups move time to time. :)

[charlie b]

FWIW, I NEVER use a load that someone else says they use. If I don't find it in a published manual (or mfg website) then I won't use it.

I still remember a guy who had trouble with a Dan Wesson .357mag. It wasn't shooting well. The fired cases just dropped out and no primer issues or stretched cases. But, when the gunsmith dropped a round in the chamber it just kinda rattled around. When asked he said he loaded it the same way his buddy did. Just put in a scoop of Bullseye and seat the bullets. When asked what size scoop he said he didn't know, but, if filled up the case nicely. The way overloaded rounds bulged all 6 chambers (with no failures of cases or chambers). Yes, he was very lucky.

Moral of story, cases frequently do not show signs of over pressure and someone else's loads may be dangerous.

[newton]

FWIW, I NEVER use a load that someone else says they use. If I don't find it in a published manual (or mfg website) then I won't use it.

I still remember a guy who had trouble with a Dan Wesson .357mag. It wasn't shooting well. The fired cases just dropped out and no primer issues or stretched cases. But, when the gunsmith dropped a round in the chamber it just kinda rattled around. When asked he said he loaded it the same way his buddy did. Just put in a scoop of Bullseye and seat the bullets. When asked what size scoop he said he didn't know, but, if filled up the case nicely. The way overloaded rounds bulged all 6 chambers (with no failures of cases or chambers). Yes, he was very lucky.

Moral of story, cases frequently do not show signs of over pressure and someone else's loads may be dangerous.

I’m confused. You never use a load someone else has posted they use? Or do you mean you have never used one just because they say they use it?

Do you consider 21 grains for a 310 grain boolit over published data according to Hodgdon?

I’m at a loss really. Numerous loading data often conflicts with each other a bullet manufacturer often has data that conflicts with powder manufacturers. Which do you go by?

[Wagnerwerks]

Soo... Have we tried this bad boy with factory loads?

[charlie b]

I’m confused. You never use a load someone else has posted they use? Or do you mean you have never used one just because they say they use it?

Do you consider 21 grains for a 310 grain boolit over published data according to Hodgdon?

I’m at a loss really. Numerous loading data often conflicts with each other a bullet manufacturer often has data that conflicts with powder manufacturers. Which do you go by?

I only use published loads from a mfg. I don't care what other people use for loads and certainly won't use them if they are over the published data.

Yes, there can be conflicts. If, eg, Hogdon lists a hotter load than Nosler, I will probably go with Nosler if using a Nosler bullet. There are differences in bullets.

There is no reason to go over published data. If you need more power get a different cartridge.

IF I ever wanted to experiment with loads I'd invest in a good strain gauge system and then 'calibrate' it using a variety of factory loads. That's the ONLY way to know if you are going over limits.

[newton]

I only use published loads from a mfg. I don't care what other people use for loads and certainly won't use them if they are over the published data.

Yes, there can be conflicts. If, eg, Hogdon lists a hotter load than Nosler, I will probably go with Nosler if using a Nosler bullet. There are differences in bullets.

There is no reason to go over published data. If you need more power get a different cartridge.

IF I ever wanted to experiment with loads I'd invest in a good strain gauge system and then 'calibrate' it using a variety of factory loads. That's the ONLY way to know if you are going over limits.

Have you ever loaded a boolit/bullet that was not published in a loading manual? I know of many Lee molds that don’t have published data for a particular cartridge. Just wondering if you have ever run into that situation or if you only use boolit molds that have published data.

[newton]

Soo... Have we tried this bad boy with factory loads?

No. Gun is in the process of being sold. I’m not spending any more money on it. I have no doubt that either factory loads would work, or if they didn’t that CVA would fix the gun so they did. Either way, it’s not what I wanted the gun for. I am 100% satisfied with CVA and their service, just don’t have a use for this rifle all things considered.

[Wagnerwerks]

Thanks for the update.

[OlDeuce]

WoW............That's to bad.......I had High Hopes for your .44 CVA..............Would the Thompson Contender be a better choice ?? Bit more money !
But it's all workable

Ol Deuce

[newton]

WoW............That's to bad.......I had High Hopes for your .44 CVA..............Would the Thompson Contender be a better choice ?? Bit more money !
But it's all workable

Ol Deuce

I am sure the TC is built to a higher standard, but as weird as it sounds I could never develop a like for them. I never owned one, but I know people who do and I just never got bit by that bug. I tried holding/shooting theirs and it just never gave me the desire to own one. Probably a good thing. lol

[charlie b]

When using Lee bullets I use Lee loading data.

If the bullet is made from a mold by someone else I will look up a similar bullet, eg a Lyman or Lee and use that data.

Again, no, just because someone on a forum says, I use this bullet and this powder charge and it works great, means NOTHING. As in almost useless data point. I say almost only because they did not blow up that gun. It does not mean it will not damage my gun. Heck, it might have damaged their gun, they just don't know it.

I really do hope you have not damaged yours.

[charlie b]

So, will you tell whoever wants to buy it that you may have damaged the gun by firing heavy hand loads in it?

[newton]

Here are my thoughts about why I am getting rid of the gun. It is not because I hate it. It's not because I am upset with CVA. It's not because I do not think it can shoot accurately.

The reason I have decided to sell it is that I often make impulse decisions when it comes to purchasing firearms, and this was one of those purchases. I had not thoroughly thought out what I actually was wanting and how this gun would fit the bill when I bought it. Durring my last trip to deer camp, I had finally made the descision that I wanted to get a big bore(44 or 45 caliber) firearm to hunt with this next deer season. I have also been itching to try my hand at hunting with a pistol. I often thought about it in the past, but was always stopped short of doing it because I always thought I might 'need' to take long shots(ones over 100 yards) and did not want to have to deal with rainbow trajectorys and iron sights at distances greater than 50 yards.

But sitting in the deer stand a few months ago I realized that in all my years of hunting I might have shot, or had the opportunity of shooting, less than a handful of deer at yardages greater than 100 yards. I originally thought about getting a 45 colt lever gun to compliment the short barreled Ruger I carry in the woods. Then I thought why not just hunt with the blackhawk itself, but the short barrel does not afford a very good sight aquisition, and while I am ok with close shots(under 50 yards) I know that longer shots needed better sights for my eyes.

When I started looking at guns I did not have the cash on hand to buy the lever gun, and for sure not a pistol that easily accepts scopes, but I did have enough to buy the CVA. So, being like a little kid, I made my impulse buy. Fast forward to now, and I do have the cash(or soon will), and have decided to go after my long thought out desire to pistol hunt, so I will be buying a Ruger Blackhawk Hunter and practicing with it for the upcoming season. Sad thing is, I'm taking a loss with this gun where as if I had just held out I would already have the funds to buy the Ruger.

So, the reason I am putting an end to owning the CVA is simply that in order for me to continue with it I am going to have to spend more money on it. While I could send it back to CVA as it is right now, I would not feel right about it without trying factory ammunition. In order to try factory ammunition, I am going to have to spend money that I would much rather put toward the purchase of what I had originally desired to hunt with.

In the end, I can definitely see myself owning another CVA down the road(other than the muzzleloader I currently have and love), but this particular rifle would be better served to free up funds for my true desire. That's the long and the short of it. :)

[newton]

So, will you tell whoever wants to buy it that you may have damaged the gun by firing heavy hand loads in it?

Are you serious or just trying to rouse a fight?

I have talked to several people so far. I have told them the exact reason I am selling it. It's only your opinion that I may have damaged the gun by firing the hand loads I made - that were within powder manufacturers recommended specs.

So no, I am not going to say "the gun may be damaged" any more than I will say "the gun may shoot one hole groups". If I had intentionally loaded rounds I knew were way above spec - according to all the data that is out there - then yes, I would not lie to them. If they ask the exact loads I used then I will tell them exactly what I loaded and shot. I do not believe I shot any loads that damaged the gun, so I am not going to lie to someone and tell them that.

[newton]

When using Lee bullets I use Lee loading data.

If the bullet is made from a mold by someone else I will look up a similar bullet, eg a Lyman or Lee and use that data.

Again, no, just because someone on a forum says, I use this bullet and this powder charge and it works great, means NOTHING. As in almost useless data point. I say almost only because they did not blow up that gun. It does not mean it will not damage my gun. Heck, it might have damaged their gun, they just don't know it.

I really do hope you have not damaged yours.

So then have you looked and seen that Hodgdon says for a 325 grain BTB cast boolit the max charge is 22 grains? Why would someone think that my load of 21 or 21.5 grains would be way over max and be damaging to the gun?

I am not sure if you are aware, but Lee does not list their own loading data for the molds they have. They list others loading data. Do you have the loading data that Lee publishes for the C430-310 with W296? Does that data say that I was over on my loads?

[charlie b]

I really don't care what loads you used or why. You said your loads were high, how much depending on which load charts you chose to look at. You said the action would pop open on firing so you contacted CVA to find out what was wrong with it. You also complained about 'drifting' groups which you say might be cause by a loose action.

So, is it still 'broken' or was it user error? Do you still think it is too 'loose' to shoot well?

I understand you wanting to sell it, just be honest with what you did to it and why you contacted CVA about it and the performance you got from it. Including the emails from CVA asking you to shoot some specific factory ammo through it before contacting them again.

[newton]

I really don't care what loads you used or why. You said your loads were high, how much depending on which load charts you chose to look at. You said the action would pop open on firing so you contacted CVA to find out what was wrong with it. You also complained about 'drifting' groups which you say might be cause by a loose action.

So, is it still 'broken' or was it user error? Do you still think it is too 'loose' to shoot well?

I understand you wanting to sell it, just be honest with what you did to it and why you contacted CVA about it and the performance you got from it. Including the emails from CVA asking you to shoot some specific factory ammo through it before contacting them again.

I think you may not have read the entire thread, (which is ok), because you are really taking some things out of context and make some statements about the events that simply are not true. CVA was ready and willing to send me an RMA, they never stated I had to shoot factory ammo first. I contacted CVA for multiple reasons, not just because it was popping open. To that point, I’ll reiterate it again, just like I told the guy who bought the gun, that as long as I wiped the locking surfaces dry and made sure there was nothing on them it did not pop open.

Is it broken? Define broken. Yes it still wiggles back and forth. Do I think it’s too loose to shoot well? Yes. I don’t think it’s right. The only way I was going to know for sure it was broke was to shoot factory ammo out of it. That was a detailed part of my conversation with him.

I told the guy I sold the gun to everything. He wanted to know why I was selling it and I told him the chain of events. Among other things, I told him it was not accurate with my handloads and that CVA said it should shoot around 1 1/2” at 100 yards with factory ammo. I told him the specifics why I had not shot factory ammo, and that if he did shoot factory ammo and found it did not shoot good then CVA would be good about getting it fixed so it would shoot good.

You Sir have insinuated that I’m doing something wrong(or potentially) from my handloads to my selling of the gun. I’ve always figured I had enough business of my own to deal with I didn’t need to tell others how to deal with theirs. Most people on this site look to help others not put them down. I’m not sure why you decided to hone in on me, but I’d appreciate it if you would seek to help not hurt in the future.

Maybe you had a bad deal in the past. I can understand that. I’ve been taken advantage of also, but I’ve never intentionally hurt someone or taken advantage of them. I really appreciate those who seek to do the same.

[Wagnerwerks]

so I think that I've shown that I'm not here to argue about fault of anything. I enjoyed this thread as an intro to my next gun. I did want to point out that most mfg warranty repairs are only free to the original purchaser. That was the case for 2 used rifles I've purchased. One was a CVA. This isn't the case for all, but I just wanted to throw it out there. If you gave full disclosure, I think you were fine selling it or whatever else you want to do with it but the buyer would likely not get the same service as you.

[newton]

so I think that I've shown that I'm not here to argue about fault of anything. I enjoyed this thread as an intro to my next gun. I did want to point out that most mfg warranty repairs are only free to the original purchaser. That was the case for 2 used rifles I've purchased. One was a CVA. This isn't the case for all, but I just wanted to throw it out there. If you gave full disclosure, I think you were fine selling it or whatever else you want to do with it but the buyer would likely not get the same service as you.

I appriciate it Wagnerwerks.

Turns out you are correct, I assumed CVA extended their lifetime warranty, but I just looked it up and sure enough, it is only to the original purchaser. This will be good to know for future buys. I did not tell him that it did, but I did tell him I had been in contact with them and how they said to shoot factory ammo then contact them again if it did not shoot good. He may or may not have took that as me saying they had a warranty extension to the next owner. I do believe that CVA will make the gun right regardless of who the owner is - but now I can see that it is not a free fix for the person who buys them used. Well, that is an opinion though - who knows if they may fix a used gun for free or not. I still believe that CVA provides good customer service and will stand behind their product.

Hopefully, if it happens that factory ammo won't shoot well for him, that CVA will at least stand behind their product with minimal cost to him. He got a good deal on the gun - I took a pretty good lose on it.

I think the downfall of this thread is that I was thinking/talking out loud about my opinions/feelings and such. That, in turn, got interpreted by some to be professional views I suppose. My feelings don't mean squat but to me. I was just sharing. I am not a professional with regards to break open actions.

The whole thing that seems to be overlooked(not necessarily by you) is that CVA did not seem to be concerned about anything except the fact that I had not shot factory ammo. I told CVA about everything and they had no concern about the loose action, barrel popping open, and innacuracy - pointing to the fact that in their "professional" opinion it more than likely could ALL be a condition of me shooting handloads. I even pushed the issue, making sure they were talking about ALL of my concerns, not just some.

Here is a direct quote of me pushing the issue;


Also, will factory ammunition make the action lock up tight and not wiggle? Will the action not open up when I fire factory ammunition?

If they honestly thought that the gun was unsafe, I HIGHLY doubt they would recommend I go out and buy some heavy factory loads to shoot in it. My "feeling" of the loose action causing inacuracy is just that - my opinion. They obviously thought otherwise.

[Shawn2571]

I hear ya, but I do have my reasons for wanting to go bigger - I just hope that I don't find that it shoots better with the lighter ones. I know that a 240 grain boolit is all I "need" for most of my hunting, but I got the gun specifically because of the twist rate in order to shoot the heavier ones.

It was a tuff call because I almost opted for the 45-70. However, I liked the efficiency of the smaller pistol case.

Its good to hear that this gun will shoot good with the 240's though.

I shoot lead slugs for economical reasons as I like to shoot a lot. And my CVA hunter despised the 240 grainers unless maybe I was pushing them too fast? Switch to the Missouri bullet company's 300 grain truncated cone cast bullets and now it will do an inch group at 50 yards and hit an 8" AR 500 target every time at at 100 yards. Never really tried for groups at 100 yards. I use 18.5 grains of W296. I ended up trowing a tasco 1.5 to 4.5 scope on it. Not a bad rig for the money.

[Brandonsw79]

I know this is an old thread, but this might help out other fellow 44 mag CVA owners, I purchsed my CVA before reading this forum post and I have had the same luck, I cast and bought a Lee .430 310 GR. Mold and sized to .430 and I was getting crazy random groups and I was beyond frustrated! I was at the point of selling my gun too. I recently slugged my barrel and I got .4213. so I tried loading up some jacketed 240 grains to make sure it was not my barrel before I bought a NOE 434 319 gr mold and a 433 sizing die. I shot much much better groups and was really happy with the results. I should have my new mold this week. I think that will fix the problem with cast. I will post updates next week depending on the weather.

[Brandonsw79]

It worked! Got my mold and shot a quick 5 shot group this evening, I will do more testing next weekend, it rained allot here and didn't get much time to shoot.

[725]

glad it's working. SAAMI, for reasons unknown to me, spec revolver barrels different than rifle barrels for the .44 mag. something I wish i'd known before I re-barreled my win trapper.