Puzzling day at the range

[Eddie2002]

Took my CVA .50 caliber Hawkins and the .58 caliber Buffalo Hunter out to the range today. Started easy at 25 yds just to make sure they were sighted in. Both hit the bullseye with no problems so I moved over to the 50yd range and that's where the accuracy went to heck. My load for the CVA was 55 grains 3F with a .490 PRB and pillow ticking lubed with bore butter. I worked up to 65 grains and the accuracy got a little better but it ended up shooting 8 inches high.
The .58 Buffalo Hunter shot ok ( hit the paper) with a 320 grain minnie ball over 50 grains of 3F but when I switched over to a .570 PRB I couldn't hit paper. I tried working up to 75 grains of 3F but still didn't have any luck. Got tired of wasting powder so I called it a day.
I don't know if I sabotaged myself because I tried some 50/50 bees wax olive oil as a hard lube early on in the day with both rifles. I didn't notice any fouling, loading was easy all day long. Any thoughts?
Thanks

[triggerhappy243]

when shooting for groups at different distances, my focus is not on hitting the bullseye, it is hitting in the same spot. my target frame is big. 24 wide and 48 tall. I focus on holding the front bead in the same spot every shot.

[Edward]

when shooting for groups at different distances, my focus is not on hitting the bullseye, it is hitting in the same spot. my target frame is big. 24 wide and 48 tall. I focus on holding the front bead in the same spot every shot.

Second that !

[Eddie2002]

I was using a standard sized target, guess I'll use a bigger piece of paper for the target next time. I'm wondering if I need a thicker patch to grab the rifling better. The range I was at doesn't let you in front of the benches even when the range goes cold so I couldn't inspect any used patches. Feel like I'm fumbling around in the dark.

[waksupi]

Clean your barrel well, go to a different lube, and report back.

[scattershot]

It’s been a while, but as I recall the Buffalo Hunter I had had very shallow rifling, and would shoot a bullet OK, but not a patched ball. Try a slightly bigger ball with a thinner patch. Sometimes these things can drive you nuts.

Good luck!

[mooman76]

Like stated, try another lube. Also it's best to make your own patches. It's cheaper and you have more control. When you buy prelubed patches you don't know how old they are and you are stuck with whatever lube they used. Old prelubed patches break down over time. Did you swab? Some lubes need swabbing after a few shots or accuracy goes south quick. I like spit patch myself. No swabbing needed and I can shoot all day. I use Pyrodex and have for years without issues.

[Eddie2002]

I've just started cutting my own patches out of pillow ticking, the store bought prelubed ones have gone bad and tore when I tried to load them. I didn't swab between shots with either gun and know that the Buffalo Hunter prefers minnie balls over PRB's but wanted to give it a try anyways.
"Clean your barrel well, go to a different lube, and report back." Will do along with trying thicker patches.
I'm more interested in getting the .50 caliber CVA Hawkins shooting PRB's right now since it is legal at the shoot I'm competing in next month. I'll scrub the bore with a brush and try a different lube. Should I soak the patch with lube or just moisten it? Dumb question but just would like to know.

[Wayne Smith]

Not a dumb question, but only you can answer it. Try it both ways.

[FrontierMuzzleloading]

hard beeswax = nothing but trouble. Melt that **** out of the bore, scrub it good and then use a good patch lube.

I've built many CVA Hawken rifles and the go to loads are as followed:

50cal .490" round ball, .54cal .530" round ball, .018 - .020 patch, 70-80gr 2fg or 70 - 80gr 3fg Goex ( pyrodex P - RS work great as well )

[FrontierMuzzleloading]

209519209519

[mooman76]

You don't usually want to saturate the patch with lube but some lubes are thin and meant to dry. Some use Balistall, (sp) a water based machine lube and they mix with water 6 to1 give or take. They let it dry and shoot it that way or shoot it on a patch wet but not dripping wet. Just gotta find what your gun likes.

[triggerhappy243]

what kind of range will not allow you to walk down range to retrieve patches.............. let alone your targets? is this an indoor range?

[triggerhappy243]

50cal .490" round ball, .54cal .530" round ball, .018 - .020 patch, 70-80gr 2fg or 70 - 80gr 3fg Goex ( pyrodex P - RS work great as well )[/QUOTE]

Jon, .18-.20 thick is too thick for all of my rifles............... and possibly for the o.p.

[dondiego]

I've just started cutting my own patches out of pillow ticking, the store bought prelubed ones have gone bad and tore when I tried to load them. I didn't swab between shots with either gun and know that the Buffalo Hunter prefers minnie balls over PRB's but wanted to give it a try anyways.
"Clean your barrel well, go to a different lube, and report back." Will do along with trying thicker patches.
I'm more interested in getting the .50 caliber CVA Hawkins shooting PRB's right now since it is legal at the shoot I'm competing in next month. I'll scrub the bore with a brush and try a different lube. Should I soak the patch with lube or just moisten it? Dumb question but just would like to know.

Be careful with that brush. If it is a tight fit, it is a bear to get it to reverse the bristles and come back out!

[triggerhappy243]

Be careful with that brush. If it is a tight fit, it is a bear to get it to reverse the bristles and come back out!

twist it clockwise as you pull it out.

[FrontierMuzzleloading]

50cal .490" round ball, .54cal .530" round ball, .018 - .020 patch, 70-80gr 2fg or 70 - 80gr 3fg Goex ( pyrodex P - RS work great as well )

Jon, .18-.20 thick is too thick for all of my rifles............... and possibly for the o.p.[/QUOTE]

Depends. All my CVA & Traditions rifles use that 18 and 20 thou patch perfectly. Its all about the bore condition and lube used. I can reload my .499" Traditions barrel 20+ times at the rendezvous while using my hunting patch lube. A plastic ramrod, and its a real pain. Wood or my SS rod and zero issues. That CVA Hawken barrel above, should easily take that thicker patch with no issues whatsoever.

[Eddie2002]

"what kind of range will not allow you to walk down range to retrieve patches.............. let alone your targets? is this an indoor range?" It's a county run range where you are allowed to walk down the side of the shooting area to get to the targets but you have to keep on the path and not wander off in front of the shooting benches. They have a lot of new gun owners showing up who don't have any idea of what they are doing. It's a nice range as long as you play by the rules.
I know about sticking a brush in the bore and use a home made 3/16 inch steel cleaning rod for them with a bore protector to protect the crown. Sometime it takes a good yank to get the brush moving out. Already scrubbed both bores with hot water and dishwashing soap.
I'm starting to think that my main problem was using the hard lube for a PRB in the CVA and trying to shoot PRB's after using minnie balls lubed with the beeswax mixture in the Buffalo Hunter.
Need to get back to the range with the .50 caliber Hawkins sans hardlube to see if it shoots better at 50yds. Thanks for the replies.

[triggerhappy243]

reclaiming your shot patches is critical in seeing what is going on. you should try to make this a point with the rso. maybe shoot at the 1st or last bench.

[Rick N Bama]

It’s been a while, but as I recall the Buffalo Hunter I had had very shallow rifling, and would shoot a bullet OK, but not a patched ball. Try a slightly bigger ball with a thinner patch. Sometimes these things can drive you nuts.

Good luck!

It's been many years since I've owned a Buffalo Hunter, but as I recall mine shot well with a .575" RB using Patch made from an old T-Shirt.

[rfd]

sometimes, not at all often, the patch/lube/ball/charge/barrel all come reasonably well together. not often. this is where you need to spend the time to find out what the gun likes with a clean barrel and then with a dirty barrel. then there's the matter of easy loading versus using a hammer, so the loading regimen is also about what you expect versus the final accuracy. yer gonna need a bunch more trigger time with controlled loads and their results. perfectly normal. some folks use a lead sled to take the human outta the results.

[triggerhappy243]

sometimes, not at all often, the patch/lube/ball/charge/barrel all come reasonably well together. not often. this is where you need to spend the time to find out what the gun likes with a clean barrel and then with a dirty barrel. then there's the matter of easy loading versus using a hammer, so the loading regimen is also about what you expect versus the final accuracy. yer gonna need a bunch more trigger time with controlled loads and their results. perfectly normal. some folks use a lead sled to take the human outta the results.

And recover some of those patches.

[Eddie2002]

Just had a thought, I'm using a heavy 3/16 inch steel ram rod with a cleaning jag and am slamming the PRB down pretty hard to seat it on the charge . Bet I'm deforming the ball by doing that. I'm wondering if that is the problem, the ball shoots straight at 25 yds because the aerodynamics of the ball hasn't taken over yet but out at 50 yds the deformed ball is spinning all over the place and misses the target. I was using the rod on both rifles with the PRB's as well as the minnie balls in the Buffalo hunter.
Next trip to the range I'll see if I can use lane #1 which is next to the walkway and ask if the RO will let me pick up a couple used patches.
I don't have a lead sled but with the set trigger and the front rest I"m using there probably isn't a lot of the human factor involved. I would hate to think I'm that bad a shot at 50yds after all the years I've spent shooting. Oh well another journey started with muzzle loading. ;) Thanks again.

[mooman76]

My cleaning jags are concaved on the top to form to the ball. Are yours?

[triggerhappy243]

when using such a ram rod, you should not slam the rod on the ball, but shove the rod with 1 smoothe downward stroke. and like mooman76 stated, the tip of the rod should be concaved with the same contour as the round ball.

[Eddie2002]

The jags I've been using are flat across the tip, not concave and with the heavy rod I bet I've flattened the balls by a good amount. Going back out to the range today (got the ok from the wife for a second trip) and will use one of the wooden ram rods that came with the rifle and has a concave tip. Will also take different patches.

[Eddie2002]

Range report for the day, I started at 25yds with a Traditions Trapper .50 caliber pistol which shot great. The 50 yd benches were full so I had some fun with the pistol till a slot opened up. I even let the RO take a shot, it was his first time shooting BP and he loved it, think he's hooked. He said he wants one for Christmas ;)
At the 50yd range I started with 50 grains 3f pillow ticking, Bore Butter and used a wood ram rod with a concave tip. Began hitting paper right away but with no accuracy to speak of. Worked up to 65 grains 3f with spit/BB lube on the patches and hit the 7, 8, 9 and 10 ring in four shots, the best for the day. I then bumped the load up to 75 grains and had the grouping hit a consistent 8 inches high. Went back down to 65 grains and was able to close the grouping back up at the POA. Probable put over 35 rounds through the rifle with no cleaning so it looks like everything worked. Also picked up some of the used patches and the heavier loads above 80 grains showed some ripping from the rifling.
Guess the heavy ram rod deforming the PRB was the problem, call it operator error on my part, and the sweet spot for 50 yds is 65 grains 3f. Didn't have a chance to try the 100 yd range but I bet the 75 grain 3f load will be a good starting point to hit the POA.
Shot a whole lot better today than two days ago, maybe not all in the same hole but had a major improvement and had fun, thanks everybody for the help.

[FrontierMuzzleloading]

I doubt it was the loading jag that was the issue. You were ramming that ball down hard and inconsistently with the heavier range rod. Make sure you tighten that tang screw each time you clean that rifle.

[triggerhappy243]

Eddie2002, did you save your targets?

[jimb16]

This may sound a little screwy, but try several different patch thicknesses. I have a .50 Hatfield that likes a very loose patch! The weight of the ramrod is almost enough to push the patched ball down the barrel. Accurate? Yes! 1 1/2 inch groups at 100 yards off the sandbags. Yes. I know a tight patch is best, but not in that rifle!

[Eddie2002]

Yeah, I saved my targets, I'll post them once I get a picture of them. The CVA has a hooked breach plug but I'll keep an eye on the tang screw just in case.
Will try different thickness patches next trip just to see what works. Getting ready for a BP shoot in about 6 weeks and finally have a starting point to work with.
Just noticed a bruise on my shoulder from the 85 grain shot, ha ha LOL.

[triggerhappy243]

focus on 50 yards til you are shooting consistent. Focus on eliminating the patches shredding. The right lube choice will show.... by the patches no longer being shredded.