Double Rifles

[Pepe Ray]

I don't see a category that would cover doubles, except for this one. May I proceed?

I've got a Russian/Remington, in 45-70 Govt. I love it ,in spite of not finding it easy to regulate the bbls.
I bought it to use for a Moose hunt several years ago. Never saw a legal moose but had fun anyway.
Poor health in the ensuing years has prevented me from exploring it's possibilities. Oh well--it's something that I can look forward to, until----.
Pepe Ray

[pietro]

.

I tried to order/buy two, a .30-06 & a .45-70 (paying in full for both, up front), back when Remington took over them from EAA, but gave up after 6 months, when they never came in. [smilie=b:

(Yes, my FFL gave me a full refund)

I'm glad you got yours - you're in a great area to use it (I've been hunting in/around the Dover-Foxcroft area for 40 years).


.

[Drm50]

I have had 3 double rifles two prewar rifles and one import in 45/70. The 45/70 was terribl as far
as regulation and nothing could be done at a reasonable cost. About the only thing you can do
is put sights on each barrel. I opted to trade it off. The Austrian doubles shot well enough for
woods hunting as far as both barrels printing to the sights. I really didn't shoot them that much
the ammo was hard to come by and expensive. They were both odd ball 9x mms with about the
same power as a 38/55.

[Spooksar]

I bought a Baikel/Remington in 30-06, I wanted to buy the 45/70 but couldn’t find one. I wanted to practice with as I have a Markell in 470 Nitro, and the 45/70 would be a lot cheaper. The 30-06 locks up hard using factory 180 cartridges but not with 150 gr. I started casting and powder coating for my 470, it just works better

[Sekiar]

I have a beautiful Pedersoli double 45/70 that I've not shot enough to determine the best load for the best accuracy. Also have the Russian 45/70 double and have only shot it a very few times. Also have the .72 caliber Pedersoli double cap lock which is a blast to shoot and still need to shoot it more to determine the best load(s). Since I no longer hunt all are just for fun so there is no rush to determine what the best loads are. I just enjoy handling and admiring them as much as shooting:). Also have a German over/under rifle/shotgun that traveled here after WW2. Also like most double shotguns. X2 is great. Charles

[elk hunter]

I love doubles smooth or rifled and hunt with them. I have one of the Remington marked Russian 45-70 doubles. When I got it I shot about 20 rounds through it and put it back in the box and haven't shot it since. I considered restocking it, making up ribs, sights etc and doing a proper regulation of it to make it better looking and shooting but decided it wasn't worth the effort. I keep thinking I'll find another much nicer double in 45-70, they do exist, but haven't put any real effort in to locating one.

[Soundguy]

I bought a Baikel/Remington in 30-06, I wanted to buy the 45/70 but couldn’t find one. I wanted to practice with as I have a Markell in 470 Nitro, and the 45/70 would be a lot cheaper. The 30-06 locks up hard using factory 180 cartridges but not with 150 gr. I started casting and powder coating for my 470, it just works better

I have the biakal 45-70 double, and I actually got it to regulate ok.. but I hate it's adjustable wheel-spin system... I mostly shoot handloads in the 325gr cast range using trailboss. IMHO.. I don't think the barrell setup at the chamber is beefy enough for a real double 45-70... I treat it as a 'trapdoor only' load type of gun.

I did just recently pick up a sxs sabatti in 9.3x74r and a o/u in 470 nitro express, and can't wait to get them to the range. According to the included targets, the 470 at 50m is printing in the same hole almost. That rather excites me.

[Drm50]

Several years ago my gunsmith built a 45/70 SxS out of a high grade German SxS shotgun. He
had no trouble doing the gunsmithing, but the regulation was driving him nuts. Lucy for him the
job was one of those that money was no object. He did finally get it regulated but said he was
getting to old for that kind of aggravation. The makers of fine double rifles have special "jigs"
they use to regulate. When you don't have access to that equippment it has to be made also.
The low end double rifles would cost more to regulate than the gun is worth.

[NoZombies]

I recently picked this guy up to start messing with. It's actually a cape gun rather than a double rifle, but I'd guess it fits here...

http://nozombies.com/gsh/1.JPG

[Rattlesnake Charlie]

That's nice. Real nice.

[cabezaverde]

I had been thinking about a Sabatti, but read terrible reviews about them even after the regulation issues with the Cabelas guns were fixed. Did you buy from Wholesale Hunter?

How does the gun handle for you?


I have the biakal 45-70 double, and I actually got it to regulate ok.. but I hate it's adjustable wheel-spin system... I mostly shoot handloads in the 325gr cast range using trailboss. IMHO.. I don't think the barrell setup at the chamber is beefy enough for a real double 45-70... I treat it as a 'trapdoor only' load type of gun.

I did just recently pick up a sxs sabatti in 9.3x74r and a o/u in 470 nitro express, and can't wait to get them to the range. According to the included targets, the 470 at 50m is printing in the same hole almost. That rather excites me.

[Soundguy]

I did buy from wholesalehunter.

I read alot of reviews and articles on sabatti, and early regulation problems from 14 years ago.

Seems they have overcome that issue, and its now down to nitpick fit/finish stuff on a per gun basis.

I've read that their new action is very robust, and a review by an African hunt guide company mentioned that the metal and but stock were fine, but to watch for natural wood grain flaws in the forearm as heavy recoil guns were splitting them. I believe they bought three, and the one with a visible grain min on the forest chipped out and had to be glued back in ( then was fine ), and they added optics and modified the rear iron site for personal taste reasons, and added a slip on but pad.

My wood looks great, no grain splits to worry about, and the wood itself us beautiful. Action is nice smooth and tight. I'm using the hornady ammo they test fired it with. The 50m test target they sent is promising, the holes overlap to make a figure 8.
I carefully checked the muzzle area to look for signs of regulation by honing the crown, and saw none.

It has a nice sloping top rib, as well as being optic ready, however I like the express sights look.

The gun is a beast in the weight dept, which I'm glad about, should help with recoil...some ;)

I simply am waiting till I'm not working doubles to hit the range, and looking for a slip on pad too. :)

[Pepe Ray]

WOW!!! I guess I found a pulse. I'm happy to have found so many like minded shooters , tho I sense that some would not take the same path as I.
I've always subscribed to the idea of the purpose of multi function and firearms were included. My first 50 years saw economics, for me, that would be intolerable for many of you. In 1975, circumstances found me working for the largest continually operating sporting goods distributor East of the Mississippi. Happy me! Soon after Savage Firearms introduced the M 2400, a neat O/U built by Valmet in Finland. I begged and pleaded with my Mrs. to allow me to fracture our budget for the .308/12gg. model. From then on life's struggles were a little more tolerable.

I forget now what caused me to trade my M2400 but soon after I found a nice used BRNO combo set. 12gg O/U pared with a 12gg. under a 7x57R. This sported set trigger and an excellent Nichol low powered variable scope with a BOLD hunters reticle. I was hooked. Not long after, I began seeing the adds that Remington was to import these SXS's in 45-70 & '06. I began seeing a few new ones but the price was too much for my habits.

After someone shoots a 45-70 factory load or 2 in a 6 1/2 lb. rifle you can expect to see a few pre owned on the dealers shelf.
BINGO!! There's mine.

I've been reloading since 1961. Factory loads are less than 5% of my total burn. The 45-70 is a ***** cat unless you really need a Tiger. BTW, I mis spoke as mine has NO Remington marks, only Baikal & a Fla. importer's.

So, that's how I got this far. I've been a member here since BEFORE it was Cast Boolets. '03 or '04. I remember cause that was the year my wife passed away.

Please forgive an old man his ramblings.
Pepe Ray

[John Taylor]

I have built a few over the years. The last high powered one was a 416-500 on a model 21 Winchester. Way to much cartridge on 24" barrels. I ended up with a JP Sauer 16 gauge with bad barrel and decided to make a double rifle. A customer helped me pick a cartridge by giving me a set of dies for 8X72R. This thing looks like a 32-40, only about an inch longer.The barrels are mounted to the mono block and chambered but I have not had time to get any more done.

[sharps4590]

I have two, an E. Goldmann in Erfurt in 11.15 X 60R and an E.M. Reilly in 500 BPE. The Reilly came with NFB data and frankly is a tack driver for a 120-130 year old rifle. 340 gr. cast bullets hover around 2 inches at 50 yards all day long. The BP load was a very long journey and not overcome until I gave up and started using paper patched bullets.

The Goldmann in 11.15 X 60R? Well, that rifle is the one I believe gave me a Phd in handloading. I worked seriously with that rifle for over 6 months trying to find a load that would regulate. Lots and lots and lots of disappointments but when it finally did come together it is a shooter. It won't shoot with the Reilly but it's 10 years older and the bores not quite as good as the Reilly. It will still hold 3 inches or less at 50 yards. I'd love to have another and it would have to be another vintage hammer gun. However, these days we're both retired or semi-retired so disposable income is not what it was 20 years ago. Ahhh....given the right rifle I believe I would have to spring for a double in 9.3 X 74R. I worked with that cartridge in a friend's double and came to prefer it over the 375 H&H. No, it isn't quite the 375 but I do like it better.

After working so much with several vintage doubles I don't know if I could accept a Baikel or Remington. The differences are too great.

NoZ, your combination gun looks quite nice. I assume 16 bore? What is the rifle cartridge? I have a combination from about the 1880's in 16 next to 10.5 X 47R. It took a bit of work but I got a good rifle load for it.

[Drm50]

When I was a teen ager a friend of mine inherited a Double .577 cased with all the extras. His
uncle had brought it home from WW2. He had no interest in it and was trying to raise money
to buy a car. He wanted $100 for it and I would have bought it but my old man vetoed the deal.
It was a plain bussiness type rifle but in very nice shape. I often think about that rifle and what
it would be worth today. In 65 $100 wasnt chump change, but it was for that gun. In the 60s
a lot of the WW2 bring homes were on the used market. I had several combination guns that
would be worth big bucks nowadays. Most of these I never fired the rifle barrels because of the
wild cartridges were either expensive or unavailable at the time. Everyone I owned had 16g
shotgun barrels. Some of these guns were engraved and inlaid. Most of them I got on trades from
other kids for 22 rifles or pistols. I was real proud of myself, I would take them to gun shows and
trade them for new guns that I wanted. Thinking that I was a master trader. I was the one getting
ripped off because I had no idea what I was doing.

[NoZombies]

NoZ, your combination gun looks quite nice. I assume 16 bore? What is the rifle cartridge? I have a combination from about the 1880's in 16 next to 10.5 X 47R. It took a bit of work but I got a good rifle load for it.

Thanks, I love the lines of the gun. I'm hoping to figure out the loading for it shortly. I have to do a chamber cast to be 100% certain, but I'm about 95% certain the rifle side is 11.15x60R (43 Mauser) and you are correct that the other barrel is 16ga. I've had a few combo guns over the years, but this is one of the prettiest, though it does need a little work to properly fix some old repairs that are less than ideal (the trigger guard is a poor replacement, a few screws aren't correct etc) but I'll deal with those things after I get it shooting. Thankfully the bores are nearly perfect, so I'm hopeful.

[texasnative46]

NoZombies,

NICE cape-gun.

What caliber & gauge??

I'm currently considering buying an underlever cape-gun: 16 gauge with 11.15x51mm rifle barrel, that was built in northern Germany about 1900. = LOTS of heavy relief engraving & some tasteful carving on the woodwork.
(Even the screw-heads are decorated.)

One reason that it appeals to me is that I already load the rifle shells for my Danish Rolling Block RM.
(I need another "oddball caliber" to buy stuff for like I need cancer.)

yours, tex

[NoZombies]

NoZombies,

NICE cape-gun.

What caliber & gauge??

I'm currently considering buying an underlever cape-gun: 16 gauge with 11.15x51mm rifle barrel, that was built in northern Germany about 1900. = LOTS of heavy relief engraving & some tasteful carving on the woodwork.
(Even the screw-heads are decorated.)

One reason that it appeals to me is that I already load the rifle shells for my Danish Rolling Block RM.
(I need another "oddball caliber" to buy stuff for like I need cancer.)

yours, tex

As I was probably posting while you were writing, it's a 16ga x (most likely) 11.15x60R it dates about 1910-1912 approximately.

A little more close up:

http://nozombies.com/gsh/2.JPG

In that one you can see the poorly replaced trigger guard as well.

[marlinman93]

Have one that started life in 1879, and was originally a 360BP cartridge. It's British made and was only built for 5 years, as the two British officers went back into government service and closed their shop.
Someone relined the barrels to .38-55 and added a Lyman tang sight. It's regulated to 75 yds. but doesn't do too badly out to 100 yds. also. After that the two barrels begin to widen the pattern. But it does have it's original fitted case.

https://i.imgur.com/1366oytl.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/pOwEjhsl.jpg

[Soundguy]

wow.. nice pics guys, thanks for posting.

[MT Chambers]

I bought a Baikel/Remington in 30-06, I wanted to buy the 45/70 but couldn’t find one. I wanted to practice with as I have a Markell in 470 Nitro, and the 45/70 would be a lot cheaper. The 30-06 locks up hard using factory 180 cartridges but not with 150 gr. I started casting and powder coating for my 470, it just works better
Boy your Markell sounds a lot like my Merkel.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

As I was probably posting while you were writing, it's a 16ga x (most likely) 11.15x60R it dates about 1910-1912 approximately.

A little more close up:

http://nozombies.com/gsh/2.JPG

In that one you can see the poorly replaced trigger guard as well.

Go on, you know you want to! Your hands will look like you will never play the violin again. But why would you play the violin when you can shoot one of those? It's a fine rifle, which looks like it has a little more depth of metal in the action bar than a shotgun. The back-action locks leave more than a barlock or boxlock too. This is a worthwhile precaution with traditionally made guns, but far less significant with modern investment cast alloy steel.

209529

It might have had the Germanic horn grip like mine, a Bohemian Kehlner of Prague double muzzle-loader which had probably spent most of its life as a 14ga smoothbore. The giveaways were a knob parked on the butt to be screwed onto the ramrod, and a single set trigger which probably nobody had noticed in something over a century. I relined it with rifled tubes from Track of the Wolf, and it regulates pretty well with bullets from a .50-70 Government mould.

209530

It is usually found that altering the powder charge doesn't much alter the convergence or divergence of the barrel. If it recoils more, the bullet exits sooner. Altering the bullet weight is much more likely to help.

[sharps4590]

Wow...except for the trigger guard it's even more lovely in the close up!!! 11.15 X 60R is a fine cartridge in my opinion but I admit to a prejudice. Dealing with only one barrel I hope your load work up is a lot easier than mine was!!!!

[texasnative46]

NoZombies,

I LIKE.

yours, tex

[NoZombies]

209529

It might have had the Germanic horn grip like mine...
209530

That's a lovely gun! and I think it did have a horn grip similar to yours, there are remnants and clues to that.

[NoZombies]

Wow...except for the trigger guard it's even more lovely in the close up!!! 11.15 X 60R is a fine cartridge in my opinion but I admit to a prejudice. Dealing with only one barrel I hope your load work up is a lot easier than mine was!!!!


NoZombies,

I LIKE.

yours, tex

Thank you both, it's a real pleasure to look at, and I'm hoping it turns into a pleasure to shoot!

[texasnative46]

NoZombies,

I wish you the BEST of luck in working up a load for, shooting & hunting with your nice CAPE-GUN.
(Yours & the one that I'm looking at are quite similar.)

yours, tex

[Rick B]

Hope you have many rewarding days at the range. Looking back to the mid to 80's, I regret not keeping a fine double rifle I once owned. Was living in Alaska at the time, a friend and I flew to So. Ca. for the Great Western Gun Show. 4000 tables, 6 miles of tables. Took all three days to make it through. Managed to walk the whole show, without buying a gun. On Monday we hit a couple of local shops. After the third try we asked the shop owner about older guns, he told us to drive to Lancaster out in the desert and visit Jack First's shop. Roughly a two hour drive. We had about 5.5 hours before our return flight departed. So time was tight. We hit the shop at a dead run, first ten minutes was a disappointment. Turned to go down the next isle and stopped dead in my tracks. This rack had over a dozen English Doubles and a handful of large caliber Single Shots. Turns out they had just returned from a buying trip in Africa. Wish I would if had more time and money that day. Clearly remember two Alexander Henry Single Shots in 450-3 1/4" BPE. The Doubles were mainly Black Powder Express Under Lever Hammer Guns. These were working rifles by second tier makers in various forms of condition. One in particular stood out, it was a S W Silvers London Address in 500 3 1/4 BPE. A plain gun with better than average original finish, very intact and with extremely good bores. It was priced at 800.00, that went back to Alaska that day. Shot the rifle considerably, it was a performer.
Rick

[BigEyeBob]

Ive owned a number of English double rifles over the years , 25 years ago they were cheap to buy due to the lack of available ammunition .Most of mine have been moved on due to financial difficulties ,but were sold when the resurgence of the big game calibres started . BELL made brass and it was easy to get ,so reloading and finding the correct loads was time consuming .I have one double rifle left , Its a Charles Boswell in 500BPE , a fine well made rifle that shoots both barrels to the same point of impact at 60yds ,I load Nitro for black and use cast and jwords .I also have two Boswell sxs shotguns ,one a pidgeon gun ,and the other a game gun , both well made and in very good condition .I enjoy shooting the rifle and the shotguns very much.