US Army’s got a new pistol. But can they shoot?

[vzerone]

Sometimes, or should I say often, I wonder about firearm blog's news being accurate. Anyways read this one on how the Army shoots their new pistol.

Larry Gibson being you had much experience in the Army did they teach you the way to shoot such as displayed in the pictures in this blog article?

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2017/12/11/us-armys-got-new-pistol-can-shoot/?utm_source=Newsletter&utm_medium=Email&utm_content=2017-12-12&utm_campaign=Weekly+Newsletter

[wch]

The military has always treated a handgun as a weapon of last resort; it's certainly not in the interest of the training cadre to try to make pistol experts of the people who carry them.
This has been a long term practise of the services and has led to arms like the 30 M1 carbine of years ago. Now, of course, they carry the M-4 or M-16 as a primary arm and it appears to have about the same drawbacks as the carbine, i.e. short range effectiveness and lack of long range hitting power.

[Lagamor]

The Army should be embarrassed by these “soldiers”. Must be commissioned.

[gray wolf]

Wow, I clicked on the link---
never new there were so many wrong ways to hold a pistol.

[Omega]

??? Many grips used, what makes these so "wrong"?
http://www.armystudyguide.com/content/army_board_study_guide_topics/m9/grip-techniques-used-with.shtml
209384
One-Hand Grip
209385
Palm-Supported Grip
209386
Weaver Grip

These guys are not pistol experts, and may not even be combat arms, so pistol training is way down on the list of things to train on.

[ARKLITE881South]

The Army should be embarrassed by these “soldiers”. Must be commissioned.

Not to criticize, but, that is sad, only one "Position'' i didn't see was right hand holding the weapon, with left hand wrapped around wrist, ''old hollywood style'', :oops:

[Larry Gibson]

Proper weaponscraft (not even going to talk about actual marksmanship) has been a lost art in both the Army and the Marine Corp for a long time. What you see in the pictures in that blog is actually better than much of the "training" I observed in my very long time in the military......at least they were using both hands........

It is the purview of NCOs to teach weaponscraft and marksmanship yet very few NCOs know proper weaponscraft and marksmanship, let alone how to do it themselves. Officers have the responsibility to ensure the NCOs can do that and to provide the time and logistics. Yet officers also lack and are never taught proper weaponscraft or marksmanship either. Since officers are never really taught what is required for weaponscraft and marksmanship they have no understanding and thus their Soldiers fail to receive proper training. Most NCOs and Officers haven't even read the manuals on proper marksmanship training with their weapons. There are exceptions but they are extremely rare........even in special operation forces.

Kind of ironic that Custer and his battalion of the 7th Cavalry were killed at the LBH because of lack of training, particularly weaponscraft and marksmanship. The Army did learn from that and, at one time had an excellent training program and NCOs that knew, understood and could train Soldiers. That has, very sadly, been lost for some time now.

The NCOs, Soldiers and Marines will spend more of their precious training on diversity, EEO, sexual harassment and now how to "integrate" transgenders than they will on weapons craft and marksmanship.

[vzerone]

Proper weaponscraft (not even going to talk about actual marksmanship) has been a lost art in both the Army and the Marine Corp for a long time. What you see in the pictures in that blog is actually better than much of the "training" I observed in my very long time in the military......at least they were using both hands........

It is the purview of NCOs to teach weaponscraft and marksmanship yet very few NCOs know proper weaponscraft and marksmanship, let alone how to do it themselves. Officers have the responsibility to ensure the NCOs can do that and to provide the time and logistics. Yet officers also lack and are never taught proper weaponscraft or marksmanship either. Since officers are never really taught what is required for weaponscraft and marksmanship they have no understanding and thus their Soldiers fail to receive proper training. Most NCOs and Officers haven't even read the manuals on proper marksmanship training with their weapons. There are exceptions but they are extremely rare........even in special operation forces.

Kind of ironic that Custer and his battalion of the 7th Cavalry were killed at the LBH because of lack of training, particularly weaponscraft and marksmanship. The Army did learn from that and, at one time had an excellent training program and NCOs that knew, understood and could train Soldiers. That has, very sadly, been lost for some time now.

The NCOs, Soldiers and Marines will spend more of their precious training on diversity, EEO, sexual harassment and now how to "integrate" transgenders than they will on weapons craft and marksmanship.

What a pity it is, especially your last sentence. I hope the hell our enemies don't get better training. I military did very well in WWII. I hope to think that it was because of better training. We know that the SS were trained well, but yet our soldiers held up. There's too much politics in our military.

[murf205]

What a pity it is, especially your last sentence. I hope the hell our enemies don't get better training. I military did very well in WWII. I hope to think that it was because of better training. We know that the SS were trained well, but yet our soldiers held up. There's too much politics in our military.
vzerone, there is too much politics in EVERYTHING!

[Iowa Fox]

We spent a lot of time training with the 1911. Almost the entire first day we fired a lead pencil with tape wrapped in two places to fit the bore into a white paper a few inches from the muzzle propelled by just the firing pin into the eraser. The exercise was to master trigger control by hitting the same spot every time. The instructors spent a lot of time watching our form as we fired those pencils. My old memory thinks we spent almost a full week of 8 hr days on the 1911 before we qualified with them. That was Ft Gordon 1967.

[tazman]

1967 is two complete generations of training and a whole world of equipment ago. I stipulate that the current M4 rifle is a different beast than the original M16 not to mention the differences in current handguns.
A lot of the expectations of accuracy have gone by the wayside. Used to be 300-400 yards was normal range for battle rifles and soldiers were expected to be able to hit targets at that range. The M4 is designed for much closer work.
The original 1911 in 45ACP was designed for close work. The original sights didn't allow for fast and precise aiming.
The current pistols are set up much differently in respect to sights. At the price point for the current handgun, the pistol is very accurate, and can be made to shoot accurately at longer distances than the original, very loose 1911. The extra distance expectation, if there is one, requires better training than just point and shoot.
I don't know if we will ever again be required to shoot the long distances during battle. It seems the government doesn't think so. Hence the lack of accuracy training for the troops.
I hope the training they are receiving is adequate for needs.

[Larry Gibson]

Better to have them "learn" before they face reality. Not doing so and coming up against an enemy that does is how you lose......that is reality. It is a lesson that is, sadly, relearned all to often.

[Love Life]

Lessons that improve the gene pool.

What a disgusting thing to say.


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[nicholst55]

Both Training Circular (TC) 3.23-35 (Pistol, dated May 2017) and the USAMU Pistol Gold Book (both can be downloaded online by anyone who is interested) show correct standing positions with the pistol. I don't know where the Instructors at Ft. Campbell got that crouching position with both elbows bent. That said, there is absolutely no emphasis on pistol marksmanship (and very little on rifle marksmanship) in Big Army. Most soldiers that are assigned a pistol will actually fire it at most twice a year, for qualification. Familiarization fire with his/her newly assigned pistol for a newly arrived MP, for example, probably consists of driving out to the range, firing a mag at the berm, and calling it good.

[tazman]

I don't want our troops to go out and die for our country. I want them to go out and make the other guy die for his.

[Kevinakaq]

I don't want our troops to go out and die for our country. I want them to go out and make the other guy die for his.

My thoughts exactly!


Lessons that improve the gene pool.

As for this...Saddens me to see such thoughts posted on a forum founded on improving ones skills through the sharing of knowledge and such callousness has no place here - do not mean to speak for others but a bit disgusted at the thought of natural selection as a preferred educational method to training for our brave volunteers. They deserve better and I know they deserve more respectful comments while standing post for me and my family. I see this as nothing more than trolling and is marked as my first ignored individual in five years of posting.

[vzerone]

I don't want our troops to go out and die for our country. I want them to go out and make the other guy die for his.

Okay Gen. Patton! :kidding:

[charlie b]

The Army has not had good marksmanship training in many decades. IMHO the only ones who were good at it trained themselves with privately owned weapons and their own ammo on their own time. It was pretty sad to see grunts who could not shoot well enough to zero their own rifle.

[shooting on a shoestring]

I’ll go out on a limb and speculate the military kills more enemy with drones than handguns. Their skills on a joystick are more desirable than their shooting skills in today’s world. That’s my imagined 2cents worth.

[robertbank]

I’ll go out on a limb and speculate the military kills more enemy with drones than handguns. Their skills on a joystick are more desirable than their shooting skills in today’s world. That’s my imagined 2cents worth.

That and smart bombs and modern guided artillery. Absolutely scary what some of the stuff modern armies have at their disposal.

Take Care

Bob