High end 1911's worth the price of admission?

[osteodoc08]

Had the opportunity to really examine a Night Hawk Custom GA Precision model with a rail frame and threaded barrel. Most expensive 1911 I've ever handled. But I question if the price of entry is worth 3-4 nice colts or 2-3 nice dan wessons.

For those that truly own and shoot such nice pieces of shooting iron, are they truly worth the cost?

[tazman]

I don't own one. I did get the chance to shoot a couple of high end 1911 pistols a year ago. One was an STI high end tactical pistols. The other was a Les Baer.
What I found out was, I am not a good enough shot to tell the difference between the high end guns and a Springfield Range officer by shooting them.
The high end guns had excellent workmanship. They were extremely tight but very smooth. Triggers were perfect. I still could not shoot them better than my RO.
I think a person who is a great pistol shot would find value in one of these. I can't, simply because I am not good enough.

[dverna]

I have owned two Clark’s built by the old man. Both were exceptionally accurate (determined by firing 50 shot groups from a Ranson Rest).

I can no longer shoot Bullseye so they are gone. But they were worth every penny.

There are many who buy a name but the high end guns I have been fortunate enough to own were good values.

[contender1]

I have shot several top end 1911's. They are build tighter,, and to be more accurate. Serious shooters,, like competition folks,,, will say they are worth it,, because a gain in accuracy can mean the difference in several places in the finishing order. A 1911 that can shoot tight 2"-3" groups at 50 yds will be dependable to put the bullets in the highest scoring area of a target,,, even if the shooter is slightly off. Making these gun accurate & smooth are what makes them cost so much. Usually all the hand work in building one is where the cost comes in.

Worth it?

Only you, your desires, and your pocketbook can decide.

[bluelund79]

One word answer....Yes. I have a Les Baer Prowler III. It’s heads above in all aspects my Series 1 Kimber, Colt Combat Commander, Ruger Commander and Springfield Range Officer. From fit and finish, to the subtle details, the price is about the same as the other four listed. It would also be the absolute last of them to ever go if worse case happened to my family. It’s an heirloom piece that will go to my namesake son. My other son has already claimed my favorite revolver to even things out. Buy once, cry never once you shoot it

[gray wolf]

I have shot several top end 1911's. They are build tighter,, and to be more accurate. Serious shooters,, like competition folks,,, will say they are worth it,, because a gain in accuracy can mean the difference in several places in the finishing order. A 1911 that can shoot tight 2"-3" groups at 50 yds will be dependable to put the bullets in the highest scoring area of a target,,, even if the shooter is slightly off. Making these gun accurate & smooth are what makes them cost so much. Usually all the hand work in building one is where the cost comes in.

Worth it?

I agree with most of the above, if your a high end shooter it's possible a high end gun could get you a few more points. In that case, could be a good idea.

If money is no object and you just want one and you don't need any other reason
Then by all means get one

If you are a 5/10/ 12 yard shooter that does not shoot at least 1 1/4 inch groups now,
you ain't gonna shoot to much of a noticeable difference spending $2500 more.
If it's a reliability thing ? spend a few buxx on your carry piece and get it dependable.

Some people will still pound there thumb--even with a $300 hammer.

[M-Tecs]

That depends on the application. If you have a true need to the benefits the extra cost will get you yes they are worth the cost. If you don't have the need or skill take advantage of these benefits it may not justify the extra cost.

[Bigslug]

The tolerances of my 1911 collection peak out with a Springfield TRP that I scored secondhand for a tiny bit more than the price of the outwardly similar Parkerized Loaded.

It's a really nice gun.

I've handled and shot several of the full Custom Shop Springfields. They are truly awesome examples of the gunmaker's art.

And my answer to your question is: Unless you're shooting NRA Bullseye, and are competitive at it, NO! What was the 1911 FOR: blowing an armed adversary out of his socks at short range, or was it intended to be used as a stockless sniper rifle?

It's been my experience that the average GI spec 1911, sometimes even with considerable wear and bore pitting, will exceed the abilities of most of the people that will ever pick it up, SO WHY IN THE SEVEN HELLS DO WE NEED TO BUILD THEM WITH THE CARE AND EXPENSE OF A THOUSAND-YARD TARGET RIFLE??? If it shoots to the sights, is reliable, and can reliably hit a coffee can at 50 yards, the mission of the 1911 (or any other combat auto) has been accomplished.

I wish more of the 1911 industry - and their customers - would wake up and realize that they're building PISTOLS and not lightsabers wrapped in a shroud of mysticism. If you are planning to take your auto-pistol handloading to the Nth degree for whatever reason, Springfield's TRP/Trophy Match level of build quality, at around $1,500 is where (I think) the Law of Diminishing Returns really begins to kick in hard. That gun will shoot better than probably 99% of the people that ever hold it. Doubling the price will get you a gun that will shoot better than 99.5% of the people that ever hold it. Meanwhile, a lowly $750 specimen will only shoot better than 97% of the people that ever hold it. Those guns are absolute trash, I tell you.:roll:

Having played the Highpower Rifle game, I understand putting that kind of work into a handgun that will be used in the pursuit of a Distinguished Marksman's badge, but to drop that kind of coin on a door-kicker's gun with fixed night sights and a light rail is beyond silly. For most of us, the Rock Islands and $1000-ballpark Springfields will more than get it done.

[Mike Kerr]

When shooting in Competitions it seems to be worth it but otherwise it is not really necessary if you make reasonable enhancements to well built stock guns as an alternative.

[wildcatter]

I look at a lot more than just the bennefit of accuracy, My Valor V-BOB and My LB Premier both offer 100% reliability. The Premier is a great gun with the 1.5" guarantee, but it is also nice to stack all your brass in the same general spot and not all over. The other thing is knowing any ammo I stick in it, feeds and ejects jacket lead round nose flat HP name it.

Then there is the DW it has went over 1000 rounds at a time between cleanings and zero Fail to Feeds, same as the bear I have shot 9 different factory loads and 5 different handloads, including SWC, TC, and RN lead loads in one outing and not one fail to feed. I also have the luxury of knowing I can pull the CCW and plug a ground hog out to 50 to 80 yards pretty easy if I do my part.

Accuracy to me is just a bonus, knowing the gun has had special care to make it all it can be is the real deal breaker for me. Plus knowing I can trust my life to it if needed is also the biggest reason for me to have a gun with special attention to it's build. You also get the comfort of knowing the finest parts from lock work and firing mechanism, to the springs and pins are less likely to fail in severe use situation.

Then comes Knowing the fitting and timing all add up to less were and tear whether you run it hard or not, this also justifies the investment knowing fatigue is much less to worry about and durability is optimized to the enth degree.

I carried the Premier for a couple years till I got the commander sized bobbed Valor, today the Valor is my EDC CCW, and the longer I own it, the more I shoot it, the more confidence I have knowing it is more than 3 Colts outa the box. I would not trade either for 3 Colts, or Springfield's, until Custom shop guns come into play,, then they would have to be pretty highly modified!

Like was already said, If I didn't carry one daily, or shoot them enough to stay proficient with them, or only shot them seldom at 15 feet or yards,,,, I may decide they were not earning their keep for the investment. But they are used often, and I have used them to shoot Varmints at longer range, as well as trust them for EDC, so to me yes they are well worth it. I also know now that I have them, they arte not only worth what I paid for em,,, they are worth more today than what I have invested in them, most are, but there is that pride of ownership, and with it comes knowing the difference hands on.

I would never suggest that any quality firearm was not worth buying. Their value is always assured, and unless your spending your rent money or kids lunch money, you probably won't make a much better investment when purchased right spending it on anything else, including gold. JMHO

[Lloyd Smale]

I kind of fall in the middle. I do think theres a difference between a 500 dollar 1911 and a 1000 dollar 1911 that about any shooter will see and feel the difference. Between a 1000 dollar gun and a 3000 dollar gun, sure there might be a bit of difference but is it worth 3 times the price? not to me. I shot ppc and bullseye with an sti Trojan that I paid a grand for. Shot for years and decided I wanted a les baer and it ran my 2k. My scores didn't change a bit. I actually like the sti better and the LB went down the road.

I guess it comes down to what you need. If your only going to the range and rolling beer cans a 500 dollar gun will suffice. most of them will shoot 2-3 inch groups and a jam or failure to feed once in a couple hundred rounds is no big deal. If your life depends on it and all you have is 500 bucks buy a glock. Or buck up for a slightly better 1911. Same if your shooting comp. If 250 scores in ppc are good enough for you then a 500 dollar gun will get you through the day. If you think when you shot a 290 that you had a poor day then you need a good gun. Personally I'm not showing up at a shooting competition with a gun that doesn't at least shoot a one inch 25 yard group. At least at that level I know that if I shoot a 9 ring it was my fault not the guns.

Now I'm sure someone is going to come back and say there cheap 500 dollar gun is a 100percent reliable and shoots one inch groups. Maybe it does but id bet if you bought 5 of them that MAYBE one out of the 5 would be that good. Id also like to compare your 500 dollar gun to a 1000 dollar gun after 50k rounds have gone down range. Doesn't it still shoot that well? Is it still that reliable?

To me GOOD 1911s start at about 800 bucks, maybe 700 if you find a sale. You also have to figure in what that 800-1000 dollar colt Kimber springfield. ruger ect is still worth used if you decide to trade it. Is your gun dealer going to give you top dollar for a ria, tarrus, or other inexpensive brand. Most dealers shy away from them because they know they were cheap and there might be good reason your trading it off. Nope for 500 bucks I'm coming home with a glock, m&p or something similar that I'm 99 percent sure is going to go bang EVERY time.

[6bg6ga]

I've had the stock Colt Government models that you couldn't get a 4" group at 25 yards to save your soul. I've owned the Colt Gold Cup National Match 70 series and they were capable of 1.25-1.5 groups easily in my hands. I've had Sig Tac Pacs that were accurate (couldn't live with the trigger pull).

I currently own a Colt officers in stainless ( one of my carry guns). I own a S&W from the custom shop which is very tight and extremely accurate and has a decent trigger. I also have an abortion... its a Colt national match barrel slide and bushing on an essex frame with a trigger that is extremely light and crisp.

Triggers make a very marked difference. The attention to detail the tightness and fit are a factor in accuracy. Would I spend 3 or 4K for a really good 1911? Probably not when I can achieve the accuracy I have with the $1495.00 S&W 1911 from the custom shop and the 1911 with the match barrel, bushing, and slide. Give me a very good trigger with a gun that is properly fitted and I will deliver a bullseye one can be proud of. Give me something that is sloppy with a 8 lb trigger and I will have a marked group spread.

[6bg6ga]

209377

Some of my work at 25 yards with the abortion 1911.

I have slightly better groups with my S&W 1911 from the custom shop.

[NSB]

I've owned at least half a dozen truly custom built guns. The best one was a Les Baer gun that was built by Claudio Salasa, one of the best gunsmiths to ever come out of South Africa. His work was truly outstanding. It was pricey, but back then I was traveling around the country entering bigger shoots and shooting against other top shooters. That gun would put every shot in under an inch at 35 yards, had a 1.5lb trigger, and was utterly reliable. I won or placed at every shoot I used it in. When entry fees are very high and you've traveled many miles to get there...with associated costs, the cost of the gun is money well spent. For someone using it for casual or informal paper punching it's nice if you can afford it, but probably not worth the money. If the truth were told, most shooters wouldn't benefit much from it anyway. You've got to be at a very high skill level to get the advantage out of the gun.

[6bg6ga]

Now you have me wondering if I would benefit from a 1.5 lb trigger pull and the answer is probably a yes. My experience from watching many people shoot is their performance gets better when trigger pull is decreased.

[tazman]

Now you have me wondering if I would benefit from a 1.5 lb trigger pull and the answer is probably a yes. My experience from watching many people shoot is their performance gets better when trigger pull is decreased.

That is how it works for me. I have never shot a handgun with a trigger that light, but when I get a trigger under 4lb my groups improve markedly. At 3lb, my groups are as tight as they are ever going to be.

[Rick Hodges]

They are not worth my money.....I have shot a Clark Bullseye gun...a tempermental, extremely accurate specialist piece, and a Les Bauer.

I would not have traded my Series 70 Gov't model with hi-vis sights, Svenson Ambi-safety, and a crisp clean 5 lb. trigger for either of them. The extra money did not make either of those weapons any more useful to me for my purposes.

Others may feel differently, and I'm ok with that. They can spend their money for what they want.

[snowwolfe]

To me, they can be worth it if:

1. The shooter can take advantage of their inherent accuracy.
2. The shooter wants to own one. God knows we all spend money of stuff most everyone else considers to be stupid. The point is, you worked for your money, enjoy it, and buy what you want.

I call these accurate type of guns my "no excuse" models. Meaning if I miss I have no excuse. Used to own a Les Premier with the 1.5 inch guarantee. Not only was it superb in the accuracy dept but it was put together like a swiss watch. Plus it NEVER jammed or failed to feed or eject and the trigger was outstanding. Life is short, buy what you want, or it will eat at you until you scratch the itch.

[jakharath]

I'm a 1911 guy. I love them. Been carrying a Colt Gold Cup that's had lots of custom work done to it over the decades. Great shooter, very accurate, eats everything I feed her. But I've had a hankering for a "nice" 1911 for years. Looked at Wilson, Night Hawk, Les Baer and others. Decided on a Les Baer because they are more of a working gun. Wilson makes some gorgeous guns but after buying one I'd be afraid to put it in a holster for fear of scratching it.

In the first part of summer this year, I purchased a used Les Baer Premier II with 1.5 inch at 50 yards guarantee. Took it to the range with most of a 50 cal ammo can with some dirty, and I mean dirty reloads. These were some old home cast 230 RN and 200 SWC bullets that looked like they had dirt and small rocks poured over them on a hot day. Cleaned them us some, the loaded them over some Unique that was made in the 60's and that didn't burn very clean. At all.

So, I load up a handfull of 8rd mags of this wonderful ammo at the table on the range. Walk 10 feet to the firing line. Dump the magazine in short order. The repeat the process. I stopped counting rounds at 1200. I continued to shoot all of the ammo I had brought. Somewhere around 800 rounds I had to put on gloves because the gun was getting hot. Really hot. Uncomfortably hot.

Now for the report. There were ZERO fails to feed, eject or fire.

I took her home, field stripped and cleaned her. The next range trip was more accuracy testing, since I knew she would function properly. This is the most accurate pistol I've ever shot. It's a joy to shoot. My poor Colt Gold Cup hasn't been out of the safe. The sad thing is that I have more money tied up in the Gold Cup than a new Les Baer would cost. And I bought mine used. If money was no object, I'd have more Les Baers.

If you ever get in my part of Texas I'd be happy to let you shoot mine. :)

[ShooterAZ]

I think the high end models are worth the $. The fit and finish alone sets them apart. My Les Baer is a tack driver, and yes I can shoot well enough to notice the difference. This is not to say that mid-range 1911's aren't accurate though. One of my most accurate 1911's is a Para-Ord P14-45. It's had some trigger work done, and the accuracy is surprising because there's a quite a bit of slop when the barrel hood is depressed...go figure. I also have a very early 3 digit Kimber Custom, made in Clackamas ,OR before Kimber moved to NY. It's also a highly accurate well made pistol. Maybe I just got lucky with these, but with the Les Baer or Wilson your'e gonna always get a fine shooter, guaranteed.

[KVO]

Having built several 1911s (I do not claim to be a bullseye pistolsmith, but have worked with a few), my take is that the "high end" 1911s in the $1250-2000 range are solid out of the box. You can pay more for the name and prestige of owning, but you likely won't realize any better accuracy or reliability. I'd say Nighthawk and Wilson are crazy to ask $3,000+ for a bland polish job and cookie cutter grips, but if people will pay it why not? At that price point I would require high end polish and bluing, nicely figured wood grips, etc. but to each their own. About 80% of the pistol's mechanical accuracy comes from how well the hood and bushing are fit to the slide. A good gunsmith can get most any 1911 to feed reliably. BTW I've seen guns that feed empty cases and jam on live ammo. Besides, never been able to get any of my guns to fire empties.

[TenTea]

The short answer is "yes."

I'll add some more Baer love to this thread...
Years ago, I sold 6 used Colts to buy 3 new Baers and never looked back.
However, I would not sell 3 used Baers to buy 1 new Wilson (or comparable).
Baers are a little spendy, I would say mid-range in price, but nowhere near the top end of 1911 world.
After shooting and carrying them extensively for a few years, I can say I'm completely satisfied and without lust for another.
I do sorta like the Hemi, though... haha!

If you hand a really nicely fit and well crafted pistol to an experienced handgunner for inspection, they will work the slide and trigger and say, "wow!"
My pistols met the Baer guarantee, shooting inside of 3 inches at 50 yards from a sandbag rest with factory and handloaded ammo.

[DougGuy]

Here's my take, they both hit where I aim at 25yds, both shoot to 2" at 25yds, both are reliable, both built on USA made Auto Ordnance lowers, one has a WWII era Remington Rand top end complete with WWII era sights, the other has a Colt Commander top end with a Briley bushing and Harrison sights. Both needed slides lapped to the frames which is a big plus as the slide to frame fit is excellent!

These are utility guns, the 5" sits at my computer desk and is on call 24/7, the Commander sits in the safe, it is a backup to my Kahr CW45 edc pistol.

The GI 45 cost around $450 to build, the Commander about $800 so I don't have the top names on mine, but I have value, accuracy, reliability, and I have TWO 1911s for a LOT less than the price of a used LB..

http://i1202.photobucket.com/albums/bb374/DougGuy/Guns/DSC04513%20Custom%202_zpscwbgpwxh.jpg (http://s1202.photobucket.com/user/DougGuy/media/Guns/DSC04513%20Custom%202_zpscwbgpwxh.jpg.html)

[pworley1]

You are the only one that can answer that question because you are the only one that it applies to. What may be priceless to one person may be worthless to another.

[sac]

I Have a Springfield Professional, Colt Rail Gun, regular Colt 80 series Springfield range officer and Springfield G.I.. There is a difference between the Professional and RG, 2000 dollars difference not really. The difference between the other three and first two is a lot. The GI took a lot to get it to work 100%. Would I ever buy a high dollar one again no. Like said earlier 1000. to 1500. is a good range to get a good reliable 1911. Hilton yam has a good write up on duty ready 1911's

[KCSO]

I have built my own since 1982 and have worked with some top makers. I'll be frank with you a LOT of the bells and whistles are just hype. A good solid gun with good fit and sights will do everything the average man needs. Most folks would be better off with a $750 dollar gun and 2000 dollars worth of ammo. Rob Leatham could take a standard GI 45 and clean your plow every day of the week even if you shot HIS favourite gun. If you are a SERIOUS bullseye shooter a custom gun MIGHT be worth the cost, but for Joe Blow shooting a few weekend combat matches ??? And when you get to carry guns that is a whole different kettle of fish.

At the last qual I shot my own gun a lightly tweaked Remington 1911, my buddy shot his new $2000 dollar custom gun and guess who had 2 jams... Read the instructions 500 rounds before you can expect 100% function. The gun was too tight IMHO for a carry gun where you might have to shoot any ammo available.

Bottom line...if it makes you fell better spend as much as you want, but make sure it WORKS and do so every time if you plan to carry it, there are no time outs in a real fight!

[Lloyd Smale]

sure if you want it for a dedicated range gun but a 1.5lb trigger is to light for a self defense gun. I like them at least 3 and 4 is better. A good 4lb trigger that is crisp can be shot very accurately.
Now you have me wondering if I would benefit from a 1.5 lb trigger pull and the answer is probably a yes. My experience from watching many people shoot is their performance gets better when trigger pull is decreased.

[lefty o]

i get a kick out of how many people consider certain things hi end while others dont. personally if it runs 100% and hits where you are aiming thats all that is truly required, but just like cars or houses sometimes we desire nicer. imo the Baer's, and nighthawks and wilsons are nice guns but they are far short of high end.

[jakharath]

All of my 1911's, from truck guns up to my Gold Cups have had work done on them. I won't keep a 1911 if it won't feed, fire and eject properly. They must be reliable. I'll give you an example, picked up a old Colt slide with the fixed sights, a Forster blem lower, and the rest of the parts needed. Took it to a gunsmith. Had the slide milled for better sights, ejection port lowered and flared, trigger job, barrel & frame ramped, etc..., etc..., etc... Probably have $750 into the gun by now. I would be hard pressed to recover that money if I sold it. The Gold Cup I carried for decades has much more money tied up in it than a new Les Baer and would sell for much less than a used Les Baer. If I had it to do all over again, I'd bought a Les Baer back then - less money tied up in the gun, less downtime for all of the times the gun was being smithed and a higher resale value down the road.

[anothernewb]

I can't speak to the really high end 1911's. But my DW silverback and Kimber grand raptor are the nicest shooting pieces I own. Not that my ruger, the RIA, the STI, or the range officer are any slouches. But those two are a bit nicer overall.

The best way I can describe it is that all of them are superbly accurate, and have all produced fantastic groups - but I'm more accurate, more consistently with the DW first, and the kimber second.

As to reliability. My ruger has over 11,000 rounds through it without a single failure, that wasn't related to a problem with my reloads - and even then those were my first reloads as I learned the correct parameters. Other than that I really can't recall any of them having any failures.

[6bg6ga]

sure if you want it for a dedicated range gun but a 1.5lb trigger is to light for a self defense gun. I like them at least 3 and 4 is better. A good 4lb trigger that is crisp can be shot very accurately.

My 2 carry guns have at least 3.5 lb triggers now.

[Walkingwolf]

Value is determined by the buyer/user. If a person thinks they are worth it, then they are. It is like golfers buying 10 grand golf clubs, for most golfers it will make no difference in their game, but if it makes them feel better then go for it.

[6bg6ga]

Value is determined by the buyer/user. If a person thinks they are worth it, then they are. It is like golfers buying 10 grand golf clubs, for most golfers it will make no difference in their game, but if it makes them feel better then go for it.

I'll disagree with you. I've shot total junk 1911's in the past. Some are totally incapable of any accuracy period. This was the case in a Colt Government model that I had purchased years ago. It had a bunch of work done to it to feed and eject along with a better barrel and bushing and a rail on the top of it. Can't remember what you call that.

Anyway it absolutely wouldn't shoot a group in anyones hand that you could cover with a dinner plate. Up to a certain point a higher priced gun = more accuracy when it comes to 1911's. Its not about feeling better its about form, fit, and function and you pay for what you get.
I don't know where golf and golf clubs would enter into any conversation about guns. No one in there right mind would pay money to walk around a course hit a ball and then chase the son of a gun.

If anyone feels I am incorrect please do remove your barrel bushing that fits tight and replace it with a worn bushing with plenty of slop and report back on how your groups opened up because they will. Been there done that.

[6bg6ga]

I can talk of another hobby that I have that is a classic example of snake oil lights and shadows. Are you a DIY Audio fanatic? If so your probably a vacuum tube diyer like myself. Lets talk high priced parts lets talk coulping caps for example. In tube amps there are coupling caps for example between the phase splitter and the output tubes. The coupling caps allow the AC signal to pass while not letting the high B+ voltage pass. There is considerable discussion about the composition and cost of these caps some of which can go for over $500 for a pair. Is there a difference? There are two groups of people. Some say yes money = higher performance better sound and others that feel that based on what they hear the $10 a pair caps sound just as good.

Snake oil....money buys better parts better sound. Examples of this could be interconnect cables costing 5K or more or speaker cables at 10K or more. Is there a difference? Can you measure any difference? Since I have played with the high dollar stuff and the ebay variety and tried to measure the differences if any I can say that I cannot measure any differences. So, can I hear any differences? The only fair way would be the blind test where I cannot see someone switching identical amplifiers to identical speakers. So, blind hearing test I hear no differences.

Back to 1911's....

Certainly cannot do a blind shooting test as one must see the target. Using gun A with factory ammunition I can make a tight group an gun B with same ammo doesn't shoot a tight group. One could make the assumption that gun A is better.

What makes gun A better than gun B? Maybe gun A has a better barrel, better barrel bushing, and better fit between the slide and the frame. Thus its easy to come to the conclusion that form , fit , and function = better accuracy.

In this instance there is no snake oil at all. Gun A performs better and that can be proven by increased accuracy. Gun B that is looser doesn't fit as well and is of less quality equates to lesser accuracy.

With audio the snake oil theory has us believing that money equates to better quality. In reality money doesn't necessarily mean better quality or performance. Quality in my mind at least is dictated by better performance something that can be measured. In the sport of shooting you seem to get what you pay for most times.

You can buy a range rover brand 1911 for $300 and have it shoot a 8" group or you can buy something else that will provide better performance in an experienced hand. Money matters when it comes to 1911's because money does buy form, fit, and function.

[TenTea]

Might I add...it is also a treat, in this day and age, to buy a high quality, hand (and machine) crafted, American made product from a company built up by the original founder, which is family run, today.

I like that!

There are several examples of this type in the gun business and I will support them as I can, based on my own desires.

[2shot]

Check out Accuracy X 1911 shooting at 500 yards.

https://www.facebook.com/Accuracy-X-Inc-344730025561939/

I've met Steve Huff at Camp Perry and he's the real deal.

Only you can decide if you need that kind of accuracy and spending that kind of money is worth the benefits to you but it does get pricey.

2shot

[Walkingwolf]

I'll disagree with you. I've shot total junk 1911's in the past. Some are totally incapable of any accuracy period. This was the case in a Colt Government model that I had purchased years ago. It had a bunch of work done to it to feed and eject along with a better barrel and bushing and a rail on the top of it. Can't remember what you call that.

Anyway it absolutely wouldn't shoot a group in anyones hand that you could cover with a dinner plate. Up to a certain point a higher priced gun = more accuracy when it comes to 1911's. Its not about feeling better its about form, fit, and function and you pay for what you get.
I don't know where golf and golf clubs would enter into any conversation about guns. No one in there right mind would pay money to walk around a course hit a ball and then chase the son of a gun.

If anyone feels I am incorrect please do remove your barrel bushing that fits tight and replace it with a worn bushing with plenty of slop and report back on how your groups opened up because they will. Been there done that.

I have a Star Super that I paid a whopping $130 for, never fails, shoots sub 2 inch groups from a rest. My milsurp put together from parts 20 years ago still shoots one hole groups from a rest. Investment including 10 milsurp magazines, not over $400. There is a difference from inexpensive guns that work, and some that are junk, or lemons. Spending 10 grand for handgun is just not going to happen for me, the most I have ever spent is $900, and that Smith 625 shoots one hole groups from a rest. Apparently it is worth it for you, just because you deem it worth it, I support that decision for you.

[Walkingwolf]

Not my gun, or video, BUT for the majority of shooters they cannot group like that with any handgun, including very expensive ones. I am not a Glock fanboy, but this is one area that they poke fun at 1911 fanboys, which I am one, just not extreme price ones. Value based shooters can get more bang for their buck with guns like Glock, I put Hi Point in almost the same category as Glocks. Sorry no offense intended I own Glocks myself, I carry a 1911 because it is noticeable more accurate. The only improvement I could get from my cheap 1911 would be all bullets going through the same hole without cloverleaf.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=96CyDvPbnOQ

[lefty o]

funny how posts like this always degrade into a pissing match with people proving how great their stuff is.

[5Shot]

A high end 1911 has very little to do with accuracy and reliability. Sure, those things come with a high end, as parts are "fitted", not assembled, but you might get accuracy AND reliability from a sub $1K gun as well. BTW - I don't think there is such a thing as a "Nice" Colt these days. They are rather pedestrian. The difference on a custom is the attention to detail and all of the hand work involved. Hand work costs losts of $$$. If you can see the difference by looking at a pic, then maybe it is for you. If you look at them as say - "That doesn't look any different than my $600 Springfield", than I would say don't bother. If you are in the latter category, buy one, shoot it and if it doesn't fit the bill, sell it and buy another until you find one that does. The Nighthawk crew are mostly Ex-Wilson guys and they have been working with Dick Heinie for quite some time. The Wilson guys are a pretty good group as well. My next handgun will likely be an EDC-X9 - they are awesome.

Worth it -

https://www.wilsoncombat.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/EDCX9Scenic1.jpg

Meh...

https://www.joeboboutfitters.com/v/vspfiles/photos/GUN-O1082CCS-2.jpg

[35remington]

Comparing a Wilson EDC 9 at 2800 dollars and proclaiming it to be “worth it” while showing a 975 dollar Colt and proclaiming it to be pedestrian is the biggest apples to oranges comparison I can think of. Sink 2K in customization on the Colt then tell me if it is worth it now?

Sheesh.

Since Wilson will gladly accept a Colt and do customization work on it, does that not also tell you the Colt at much lower cost is “worth it?’

The previous commentary is rather like saying a base model Honda is not worth buying but slap a fart can and engine and suspension mods on it and it is suddenly worth the money. We hafta start with the base model at some point.

I guess worth is money based only, huh? The gun starts out as ordinary before the work is done on it, right?

The criteria that matters is the manufacture of the major components like slide and frame imust be of good quality so it is worthy of customization. By being of amply good quality in that area once again the worth of the Colt is proven.

[6bg6ga]

A high end 1911 has very little to do with accuracy and reliability. Sure, those things come with a high end, as parts are "fitted", not assembled, but you might get accuracy AND reliability from a sub $1K gun as well. BTW - I don't think there is such a thing as a "Nice" Colt these days. They are rather pedestrian. The difference on a custom is the attention to detail and all of the hand work involved. Hand work costs losts of $$$. If you can see the difference by looking at a pic, then maybe it is for you. If you look at them as say - "That doesn't look any different than my $600 Springfield", than I would say don't bother. If you are in the latter category, buy one, shoot it and if it doesn't fit the bill, sell it and buy another until you find one that does. The Nighthawk crew are mostly Ex-Wilson guys and they have been working with Dick Heinie for quite some time. The Wilson guys are a pretty good group as well. My next handgun will likely be an EDC-X9 - they are awesome.

Worth it -

https://www.wilsoncombat.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/EDCX9Scenic1.jpg

Meh...

https://www.joeboboutfitters.com/v/vspfiles/photos/GUN-O1082CCS-2.jpg

Colt used to be my favorite out of the box 1911 back when they were making the 70 series national match. When the Colt officers came out I had to have one. I bought one and it was the biggest piece of horse hockey I've ever bought. I totally re-springed it before it would even work correctly.

[6bg6ga]

As pointed out in several posts it is possible to purchase a cost effective gun that will function and be accurate. Having said that I will also say that in todays world it would seem that quality is bought. To get a quality fit one must pay extra for it. Fit is an important component in accuracy. Show me a loose 1911 and I will show you a loose group and vice versa.

[5Shot]

Comparing a Wilson EDC 9 at 2800 dollars and proclaiming it to be “worth it” while showing a 975 dollar Colt and proclaiming it to be pedestrian is the biggest apples to oranges comparison I can think of. Sink 2K in customization on the Colt then tell me if it is worth it now?

Sheesh.

Since Wilson will gladly accept a Colt and do customization work on it, does that not also tell you the Colt at much lower cost is “worth it?’

The previous commentary is rather like saying a base model Honda is not worth buying but slap a fart can and engine and suspension mods on it and it is suddenly worth the money. We hafta start with the base model at some point.

I guess worth is money based only, huh? The gun starts out as ordinary before the work is done on it, right?

The criteria that matters is the manufacture of the major components like slide and frame imust be of good quality so it is worthy of customization. By being of amply good quality in that area once again the worth of the Colt is proven.

My comparison answered the question the OP asked. Will $2K bring the Colt to the level of the EDC X9? Doubt it. You'll have to throw away everything but the frame, slide and grips and start over. Hell, you could have $1K in parts before work even started. Checkering the Front Strap, flattening and serating the slide top and rear, cutting it for custom rear sight, ejection port work, mag well work, straightening the lines, dehorning...lots to be done.

And now you DON'T have a Colt, you have a custom, so no, the Colt isn't worth it, but the custom is.

I have handled a bit of everything from: Colt, Springfield, Nighthawk, Wilson, Sample, Heinie, Christiansen, Brian, Yost, Chen, Harrison, Rogers, Burton and many others. The Colt and Springfield need lots of work to get to the level of a Nighthawk or Wilson. I have worked with all of these gentleman and I am very familiar with what is involved in making these guns.

The amount of hand work in a true custom is in the neighborhood of 80 hours. If I was having that work done, yes, it would be on a Colt, but a 70 Series.

[tazman]

As pointed out in several posts it is possible to purchase a cost effective gun that will function and be accurate. Having said that I will also say that in todays world it would seem that quality is bought. To get a quality fit one must pay extra for it. Fit is an important component in accuracy. Show me a loose 1911 and I will show you a loose group and vice versa.

Show me a really great 1911(or other handgun for that matter) and I will show you a loose group. I can't shoot to the capabilities of any handgun I own. Therefore I don't buy really expensive handguns expecting my accuracy to improve. It would be a waste of money for me to do that.
On only 3 occasions have I come across a handgun that wouldn't shoot as well as I know I can. Those went down the road.
For someone who can shoot at or near the capabilities of the handgun, the expense is completely justified. In that case you need every bit of accuracy and consistency that you can buy.

[35remington]

Shrinking a Colt or Kimber to 3.5 inches is a mistake to begin with. I can show you links where entire police departments returned their 3.5 inch Kimbers purchased for their undercover cops due to unreliability.

The magazine springs are especiallly deficient once they are shortened that much. Super short 45s like my Shield need super stiff recoil and magazine springs and a few other tweaks to get them to run reliably. 1911s do not have that option.

A 3.5 inch 1911 is more an excercise in salesmanship and “buyer beware” than a smart purchase choice.

[35remington]

As a said, comparing a 975 dollar gun to a 2&00 dollar gun is pointless. Give me nearly 2K to spend on a Colt and it will be tricked out just as I need with no pointless front cocking serrations or other folderol that adds nothing to function. When I am done I will have way less than 2K in improvements in it. Way less.

The mindset that you HAVE TO buy everything someone is offering to have a worthwhile piece is obviously a viewpoint I do not share. Give me a decent trigger and sights, suitable accuracy for the job and reliability and the relevant points are covered. Checker, serrate, swoop and fondle all you want. It is your money.

The rest is window dressing. I mean.....serrating the top? Straightening the lines? Is this a working gun or something that gets fondled and babied and hides in a dark safe most of the time?

One of my carry pieces is a stock Series 70 Colt Reproduction. It works well.

The Colt or Kimber or Springfield do not cost what a Wilson does. Champagne taste is great but most of us drive Fords.

[TAC14]

If $ is no object why not ?
If it is, buy the $500 gun and spend the rest on ammo.
My mixed bag Remington/Ithaca WW II veteran will put all 7 G.I. ball rounds in the belly of a bad guy target at 15 yards. That's what it was made for and that's what it does.

[5Shot]

As a said, comparing a 975 dollar gun to a 2&00 dollar gun is pointless. Give me nearly 2K to spend on a Colt and it will be tricked out just as I need with no pointless front cocking serrations or other folderol that adds nothing to function. When I am done I will have way less than 2K in improvements in it. Way less.

The mindset that you HAVE TO buy everything someone is offering to have a worthwhile piece is obviously a viewpoint I do not share. Give me a decent trigger and sights, suitable accuracy for the job and reliability and the relevant points are covered. Checker, serrate, swoop and fondle all you want. It is your money.

The rest is window dressing. I mean.....serrating the top? Straightening the lines? Is this a working gun or something that gets fondled and babied and hides in a dark safe most of the time?

One of my carry pieces is a stock Series 70 Colt Reproduction. It works well.

The Colt or Kimber or Springfield do not cost what a Wilson does. Champagne taste is great but most of us drive Fords.

Lots of working guns get all that treatment - why? Because the guy buying it wants it. The answer to the OP is obviously yes, or there wouldn't be a Nighthawk or a Wilson or many, many gunsmiths with 5+ year wait times.

The answer for YOU is obviously no, but that doesn't mean the answer IS no. For me, the answer is yes, and I would rather have one high end 1911 than 5 box stock Colts.

I'll leave you all to your opinions.

[35remington]

An opinion is all anyone can have. There are no certainties. Our experiences create the opinions we formulate.

For example, I have a number of 1911s that have unlowered and unflared ejection ports and all eject reliably. Therefore if the factory model comes with that feature that is okay, but not having it is not a reliability downside. It mainly just prevents case mouth denting.....but the sizing die makes them round again anyway.

If someone wants to make their pistol a showpiece I have no problem with that. But I do not buy “coffee table guns” myself. Anything that does not add to reliability or accuracy is not something I have any use for. The 70 I mentioned as my carry gun needed a whole minute’s worth of “dehorning” so the front of the slide behind the bushing did not dig in the holster upon insertion. An Arkansas stone saw to that.

Paying someone to make the gun’s edges look like a well used bar of soap is to me a waste of time and detracts from the gun’s intended appearance. My hands are not so baby soft that I need to put a curve on everything that came out straight. A little manual labor does a man good.

A wag once said that all a 1911 really needed was sights that could be seen and a trigger that could be managed. While it is possible to spend loads of dollars on a 1911, probably more so than any other pistol, unless someone else is paying the bill the person ordering one needs to know what is needed for himself......and what is not.

If you don’t know, perhaps someone else telling you what you need is not the answer. As was said before, define your needs first. Be realistic about return for the investment and your own ability to distinguish between what constitutes window dressing versus a feature that actualy provides a distinguishable improvement.

[clyde-the-pointer]

My Alchemy worked over Les Baer is the chit. One hole (quarter sized) groups at 25 yds. Feeds everything. Fits my hand, tight, neat, awesome. Buy one and see for yourself.

[Bigslug]

My Alchemy worked over Les Baer is the chit. One hole (quarter sized) groups at 25 yds. Feeds everything. Fits my hand, tight, neat, awesome. Buy one and see for yourself.

Yes, but for the same money, you could make quarter-sized groups at 300 yards:

209486

[lefty o]

Yes, but for the same money, you could make quarter-sized groups at 300 yards:

209486

maybe he doesnt need to shoot 300yds.

[TAC14]

And nobody (outside of pure paper punchers) need Quarter sized 45 acp groups @25 yards.

1911 target guns are a construct that was never envisioned by Mr Browning. It was designed to kill hopped up Moros at close range.

As for 300 yard shooting, again, you don't need to spend $5000 to be a winner.

[lefty o]

im sure everyone here advocating that everyone should buy the cheapest workable gun , all of you drive ford fiesta's or equivilent right?

[Walkingwolf]

im sure everyone here advocating that everyone should buy the cheapest workable gun , all of you drive ford fiesta's or equivilent right?

I don't think that is what everybody is advocating, but actually taking a middle of the road approach. If an expensive gun is what a person wants, then all is good, but nothing wrong with a good affordable shooter. We all don't need to belong to the club to be satisfied. Surely if you can understand support for buying a high end 1911, then you should be able to lend support to those who prefer an affordable model.

And if I remember correctly the Honda Civic, in the 80's about equal to the Fiesta, was a very well sold car at a reasonable price. Enough of a success that they are still made with a higher end price.

[Lloyd Smale]

don't get me wrong with this statement as I own 6 1911s right now and really like them but that said there overpriced. A guy can buy two glocks or M&Ps for what one decent 1911 costs and still probably end up with a more reliable gun. I haven't bought a 1911 in 15 years and one a fixed income probably wouldn't buy another. As to the officers sized guns I had one good one. A Kimber cdp. It was accurate and reliable. I owned at least a half a dozen others and they all went down the road because they were unreliable. I wouldn't waste 300 bucks on a 1911 that wasn't at least commander sized today. What there good for is ccw carry and reliability is KING in that dept and being all steel there heavy for there size. For what that Kimber would cost me today. I could buy two m&p shields and a glock 43. or if I wanted one higher end gun could buy a comparable sized sig that would run like a swiss watch. I use or at least used to use 1911s for competition shooting and range plinking and even occasionally ccw. But if shtf and I had to run out of this house with one handgun it sure wouldn't be one of my 1911s. Hang me from the highest tree but id grab my 19 or 23 glock or if a 45 was a necessity my M&P 45 compact. It holds one more round. Is as light as an alloyed frame commander and is dead reliable with any ammo I put in it.

1911s are still cool to me but its about like comparing a 1970 corvette to a 2016. the 70 might be cooler but which would you trust more to go cross country in even if you spent a couple grand dolling it up. I said for years id never own one of those cheap plastic black guns. My tune has changed though. I still have my first glock. My 23. Its had AT LEAST 30k through it over the years. Factory ammo, handloads both hot and mild, cast and jacketed and has NEVER missed a beat. I gets hosed down and lightly oiled about every 1000 rounds. Show me ANY 1911 that has gone 30k without one stovepipe one jam ect and ill tell you that you have a ONE OF A KIND 1911 or are lying or I could have filled the safe with GOOD handguns that do everything but look cooler for what you paid for it. Again I will say there cool. Maybe a 1000 dollars cool anyway but 2 or 3000?? Not this guy. You have to have a lot more toy money then I do to justify that. I'm not buying any 3000 dollar ar15s either when I can get a very accurate dead reliable one for a grand or even less. Consealed carry? Its a no brainer. You can buy a officers sized 1000 dollar 1911 and I can about guarantee you that it isn't going to run like my shield or 43. Its not going to eat any cast handload I put through it and even with factory ammo sure isn't more reliable then those two at half the money. There both much lighter and carry more ammo. Nope in my opinion theres only one reason to carry a 1911 as a ccw gun and that's nostalgia. Me ill take a ugly 500 dollar black gun that's going to go bang EVERY time I pull the trigger. Buy what you want though. Its your money. If everyone liked the same thing as me there would only be chevs on the road and everyone would drink bud light and there would be a single yuppy micro brewery in the world. but if 3000 dollar 1911s and 6 bucks for a bottle of beer and a Mercedes in your driveway is what you like I'm glad you can afford it.

[6bg6ga]

Been re-reading and commenting on this thread and asking myself what I would really spend. Would I spend 3K for a 1911? Much soul searching has gone into my answer and I will have to say no. I've spent up to $1500 for a S&W 1911 from the custom shop. I've compared it to my wifes Kimber, shot my wifes Kimber and I have come to the conclusion it is better accuracy wise and has a much better trigger. Both guns function with any ammo I've tried with no hickups what so ever. The S&W has a better tighter fit which in my mind equates to better accuracy along with the better trigger pull.

Some here would be satisfied with an out of the box Colt and then spending mega bucks making a sows ear into a silk purse. To those I will ask what they actually have when their done. They have a gun with a book value of maybe $700-800 and they have $1500 tied up in it.

I've shot the Rock Islands, springfields and assorted middle road guns and none of them impressed me. I also own a basturd 1911 with a Colt national match slide,bushing and barrel on an essex frame. Money wise its probably worth $400 for the Colt barrel, bushing and slide. The funny thing is it will out shoot a lot of other guns costing more.

Like I mentioned before you buy the fit and with the fit you get better accuracy and better trigger with a lighter pull. With the cheap 1911's some kinda function and accuracy is not all that good. So, unless you can machine and properly fit your 1911 you'll probably have to end up spending some money to buy the accuracy and feel that you want.

[Bigslug]

im sure everyone here advocating that everyone should buy the cheapest workable gun , all of you drive ford fiesta's or equivilent right?

My stance is that the 1911 market has guzzled several flavors of Kool Aid.

It took a while to develop an immunity to it myself. As a kid in the '80's, I felt the pull of the shiny, tricked out, and ultimately fussy Gold Cups as much as anyone, in much the same way a kid feels the pull toward the vast array of unnecessary extras listed in a glossy car sales brochure.

As was said in Jurassic Park, many succumb to the lure of target-inspired features and lose sight of the concept of "because you can, doesn't mean you should". How many actually require that kind of potential out of a handgun? Darn few. How many develop an ability to shoot such a thing to anywhere near its potential? Probably less than 1% of that 1%. How many out there can't shoot for **** and think throwing money at a really expensive crutch will make them better? Ahhhhh! Now we're getting somewhere!

My gripe is not at the concept of the high-end, fully-custom, hand-fitted Bullseye 1911 built for the rare individual trying to perfect his handloads and his ability to a near superhuman level. My gripe is at a customer base and industry who have spent decades selling each other on the notion that such elements are necessary and desirable in a combat gun or casual plinker. All this serves to do is to take the "base" 1911 further away from what it was intended to be.

Start by asking the question: What is this tool FOR? Give me something that works no matter how I abuse it, and that won't break no matter how much ammo I put through it, accurate to a distance that I wouldn't just pick up a long gun for.

I'd pay more for a 1911 that was built to be a Humvee. Unfortunately, the industry seems more driven toward building Porsches.

[jmorris]

I have a number of STI’s and SV pistols that go into the $3k range, the SV pistols really feel like no other.

“Worth it?” For competition, it is for me. That said my most used and carried 1911 style pistol outside competition, is one that cost me $299 and a weeks worth of work.

Kind of like a race car being worth the cost if I am racing but a cheap beater that always starts and runs is all I really need to get to get around.

[NSB]

If you asked a dozen top shooters this question, the answer would be a resounding "Yes". If you're not a really good shooter you're wasting your money buying a high end target gun. Like being half deaf and buying the best sound system out there.....you'll never benefit from it. Very few shooters can shoot to the performance level of their gun unless the gun is a real turkey. There are enough shooters out there that take their gun to its full potential. When they go to a big shoot and know they will be competing against other shooters who can also shoot to the guns potential, they want the best gun they can afford to compete with. In the real world, 99.99% of handgun owners will NEVER compete at this level and don't need a gun of the highest quality, fit, and reliability to compete with. I believe the question is best answered by those who have a need for that kind of gun. Very few do. I know that when I competed I didn't want my gun to be the reason I didn't win. There were always other shooters there who were at my ability level. On any given day they could beat me or I could beat them. All things being equal, the gun could make the difference. I used to have a lot of really good shooters ask me if they could shoot my gun, who made it, etc. We shared info and it allowed the sport to progress. It also got harder and harder to win. I own handguns that aren't custom built, and they're good guns that fit the actual need I got them for: hunting, self defense, casual (but accurate) plinking, etc. For head to head competition at the highest levels you'll need a truly great handgun if you want a chance to win.

[35remington]

I have seen unaltered GI beater 1911’s rise to the level of Lloyd’s “30,000 rounds without a jam” challenge. The reason they did so was because they were feeding exactly the rounds they were designed to feed (ball) using exactly the magazines the 1911 was designed to run with (tapered lip GI magazines). The round total without a jam considerably surpassed Lloyd’s figure but it was divided between 12 range beater 1911’s shot in the basement range of the Lincoln National Guard armory back in the day.

[tazman]

I have a Springfield Armory Mil Spec 45CP. Using the Springfield mags and some inexpensive mags I bought off eBay, it feeds anything I have tried in it. Lee H&G 68 clone, Lyman 452460, Lyman 452488, Lyman 452374, Lee 230 tc, Lee 230 rn tl, Lee 200 swc, and NOE 230 rn plus 230 fmj and Hornady xtp in any weight.
To date I have 1 failure to fire(bad primer) and no failures to feed or eject in over 3000 rounds.
I see no reason that won't continue.
I normally shoot 3 inch groups with this pistol at 12-15 yards.
Last week I asked a man who is a superb shot, to test my gun for accuracy. I gave him a mag full to acclimate to the pistol and had him shoot for best group with both fmj and a mag full of my reloads.
With both loads he fired cloverleaf groups(under 1 inch) at 15 yards.
While not up to the standards of a master class shooter, it does much better than what you might expect for a mil spec gun. Obviously I can't shoot the gun even to it's own capabilities, let alone the capabilities of a match grade pistol.
My point is, I don't have any use for a 2-3 thousand dollar pistol. Buying one would not increase reliability for me or increase my accuracy to any noticeable extent.
For master class shooters in high level competition, that high dollar pistol is probably a necessity.

[5Shot]

My point is, I don't have any use for a 2-3 thousand dollar pistol. Buying one would not increase reliability for me or increase my accuracy to any noticeable extent.
For master class shooters in high level competition, that high dollar pistol is probably a necessity.

Not directed at you tazman, just a general reply because you brought up the point.

The $2K-$3K (and up to $6K) pistols aren't for accuracy or reliability - they are for the guy who wants something totally refined, with all the details addressed. If all I wanted was accuracy, I'd pick up a Springfield Loaded pistol and be done. I do however like French Borders, 30LPI Checkering, Staggered Arrow Top of Slide Treatment, all machined ignition components, etc.

The OP didn't even ask abut accuracy, and although it is a part of it, the worth of a semi or full blown custom is in the attention to detail. I kind of laugh at some of the comments - "I'd never buy a pistol that expensive", followed by the comment "I have 14 1911's and they all work great". I am sure they do, but I'd rather put all that $$ together and get what I really wanted in a pistol. For some, 14 box stock pistols is what they want, for others it is something else all together. Different strokes for different folks.

I will have my buddy Jason build me one like this some day, on an original 70 Series...and yes, I will carry it and shoot the **** out of it.

https://i.pinimg.com/736x/82/a7/bf/82a7bf14557470259d984685afb3d779--burton-custom-custom-.jpg

[tazman]

That's a slightly new take on the issue and a good point. I think I agree with you.

[osteodoc08]

OP here.

I've a few 1911's including Colt, Kimber, Sig, Springfield and Dan wesson. I've owned a Smith E series in the past. All great 1911's and all reliable and accurate. Accuracy is better with my Springfield TRP and my Dan Wesson Specialist. The TRP and Specialist are definitely a slight cut above. I've always dreamt of a Brown, Bear, Wilson, Nighthawk or similar. Had a friend offer to sell me a Nighthawk GA Precision with threaded barrel and rail. But it's a rather steep entry price. Was just curious what everyone thought without being leading in the question. I could pick up a new Baer with 1.5" guarantee for about the same money. His MSRP new was almost $4k.

[lefty o]

Not directed at you tazman, just a general reply because you brought up the point.

The $2K-$3K (and up to $6K) pistols aren't for accuracy or reliability - they are for the guy who wants something totally refined, with all the details addressed. If all I wanted was accuracy, I'd pick up a Springfield Loaded pistol and be done. I do however like French Borders, 30LPI Checkering, Staggered Arrow Top of Slide Treatment, all machined ignition components, etc.

The OP didn't even ask abut accuracy, and although it is a part of it, the worth of a semi or full blown custom is in the attention to detail. I kind of laugh at some of the comments - "I'd never buy a pistol that expensive", followed by the comment "I have 14 1911's and they all work great". I am sure they do, but I'd rather put all that $$ together and get what I really wanted in a pistol. For some, 14 box stock pistols is what they want, for others it is something else all together. Different strokes for different folks.

I will have my buddy Jason build me one like this some day, on an original 70 Series...and yes, I will carry it and shoot the **** out of it.

https://i.pinimg.com/736x/82/a7/bf/82a7bf14557470259d984685afb3d779--burton-custom-custom-.jpg

he does build very very nice pistols, learned it well from Mr Yost.

[Lloyd Smale]

cant argue that other then to ask how many who carry 1911s consealed use ball ammo? I do agree though that a fairly loose 1911 will feed ball till the cow comes home. mix in some cast swc or hps and the cow better come home early. Most of the cheaper 1911s ive had either weren't spectacular shooters but would run well or were great shooters that I wouldn't trust my life to. Step up to 800-1000 dollar guns and you stand a good chance of getting one that does both fairly well with ammo other then ball. I kind of went through a semi snob period back 15 years ago or so. I usualy bought semi high end guns like les baers, stis, gold cup colts, gold match kimbers ect. I got a heck of a deal on a Kimber target II matte finished plain jane gun. It didn't do a thing for me so I traded it off to a buddy before I even shot it. That gun is about a 800 dollar gun today. My buddy did some load development with it and its to this day the most accurate 1911 ive ever shot. It was routine to shoot 1/2 one hole groups at 25 yards and the darned thing was dead reliable too (at least with that load the buddy worked up for it) Ive tried for years to get it back from him but he wont part with it and hes a guy that has more guns then anyone I know and probably has at least 20 1911s up to and including high dollar Browns and Baers. He will tell you flat out its the most accurate 1911 hes ever owned. I still hold out hope that someday in a period of weekness he gives in and I get it back. Thing is though at that price range your probably going to have to buy 30 of them to luck into one like that.
I have seen unaltered GI beater 1911’s rise to the level of Lloyd’s “30,000 rounds without a jam” challenge. The reason they did so was because they were feeding exactly the rounds they were designed to feed (ball) using exactly the magazines the 1911 was designed to run with (tapered lip GI magazines). The round total without a jam considerably surpassed Lloyd’s figure but it was divided between 12 range beater 1911’s shot in the basement range of the Lincoln National Guard armory back in the day.

[6bg6ga]

Lloyd,

I will comment. All of my 1911's will flawlessly feed, shoot, and eject ANY ammunition I choose to put in my magazines. My Colt officers 1911 that I carry at times when I don't have my Glock 23 was modified to feed anything period. Having said that I still would rather carry my Glock 23 simply because it doesn't fail.

One of the reasons I buy what I consider a better grade of 1911 is simply because they will feed an array of mixed rounds without any problems. I can't honestly say that I could feed anything other than ball to a stock 1911 and expect it to work correctly. To be blunt I simply cannot rely on a "stock 1911" to be my carry weapon. The Glock is flawless and probably always will be.

[Lloyd Smale]

I guess part of the problem with them is what 35 rem touched on. A old REAL government 1911 will feed ammo that was designed for it (ball). Its when people start "tightening the up" to shoot one hole groups in competition and target bullets are used that a lot of the problems arise. At a 500 dollar price point its about impossible to maintain both accuracy and reliability a 100 percent of the time. At a 1000 dollars it allows the manufacturer to do a bit of hand fitting and use premium parts. At 1500 maybe a even a bit better. But it takes ALOT of hours of work on a gun to justify 3000.

I look at a linebaugh for example. Today the 500s like I have will set you back about that. But everything on the gun is changed. Barrel, cylinders, internals are all about hand made. Even many hours are spent on the grip frame opening it up and reshaping it. many hours are even spent fitting grips to it precisely. It takes John about two weeks to do one gun and that's a standard conversion. Some take longer. All that said I bought mine when I had a lot more disposable income. Today would I buy one. Nope. I just don't have 3k to spend and bottom line is a 44 mag or 45 colt factory gun will take care of anything I can afford to hunt these days.

I have to justify gun money these days and about the only way I could even get a new 1000 dollar 1911 would be to trade some guns off. Its got to the point in my life that Ive traded off everything I didn't like that was worth any kind of money so I'm kind of stalled. I also don't shoot competition anymore or really even handgun hunt. Most of my range time is just plinking and for that a good old black gun does just fine and does it for 5-600 bucks and can double as home protection or carry guns. Yes I still take out a 1911 occasionally but probably shoot more 9s and 38s then everything else combined these days. There fun and cheap to shoot especially with cast. It cost me a few grains of powder and a primer. To many years of sitting on a bench fine tuning loads for competition and practicing for it kind of soured me on it. I have much more fun just shooting steel. But that's just me. Some have different needs.
Lloyd,

I will comment. All of my 1911's will flawlessly feed, shoot, and eject ANY ammunition I choose to put in my magazines. My Colt officers 1911 that I carry at times when I don't have my Glock 23 was modified to feed anything period. Having said that I still would rather carry my Glock 23 simply because it doesn't fail.

One of the reasons I buy what I consider a better grade of 1911 is simply because they will feed an array of mixed rounds without any problems. I can't honestly say that I could feed anything other than ball to a stock 1911 and expect it to work correctly. To be blunt I simply cannot rely on a "stock 1911" to be my carry weapon. The Glock is flawless and probably always will be.

[Walkingwolf]

My Star Super is loose as a goose, it only shoots hollow points. Because I bought so many of them years ago. BUT the barrel bushing, and the barrel are perfect when locked, much better than any match bushing. If one looks at a 1947 era military 1911, or the Spanish clones it is obvious why these military grade beaters shoot one hole groups. A bushing tight in the slide does not give, so it has to have a hole big enough the barrel can tilt, hence Glock accuracy. But when the bushing can tilt it locks on the barrel perfect every time. Do this test take a foot section of 1/2 inch pvc, cut a foot section of 3/4 pvc, notice how loose they are. Now cut a half inch section of 3/4, cock it over the 1/2 and see how tight it is.

I am not saying that high end guns are a waste of money, but honestly when a Star proofed in 1947 can shoot one hole groups every single time, and never fail to feed for $130 something is upside down. I would not trade that Star for any of the high end 1911's. My home built 1911 comes in a close second, ALL milsurp parts except for the frame, including the magazines a whopping $400 invested.

[35remington]

Getting a 1911 to run reliably is something of a learning curve. I got less stupid when I started paying attention. When you give it what it needs to feed reliably it will. The shootability is excellent and is why I carry one. Hitting well as soon as possible will probably carry the day.

[BigBore45]

I shot a les baer once. On paper free hand couldn't notice an extra 2k worth.

[6bg6ga]

I guess part of the problem with them is what 35 rem touched on. A old REAL government 1911 will feed ammo that was designed for it (ball). Its when people start "tightening the up" to shoot one hole groups in competition and target bullets are used that a lot of the problems arise. At a 500 dollar price point its about impossible to maintain both accuracy and reliability a 100 percent of the time. At a 1000 dollars it allows the manufacturer to do a bit of hand fitting and use premium parts. At 1500 maybe a even a bit better. But it takes ALOT of hours of work on a gun to justify 3000.

I look at a linebaugh for example. Today the 500s like I have will set you back about that. But everything on the gun is changed. Barrel, cylinders, internals are all about hand made. Even many hours are spent on the grip frame opening it up and reshaping it. many hours are even spent fitting grips to it precisely. It takes John about two weeks to do one gun and that's a standard conversion. Some take longer. All that said I bought mine when I had a lot more disposable income. Today would I buy one. Nope. I just don't have 3k to spend and bottom line is a 44 mag or 45 colt factory gun will take care of anything I can afford to hunt these days.

I have to justify gun money these days and about the only way I could even get a new 1000 dollar 1911 would be to trade some guns off. Its got to the point in my life that Ive traded off everything I didn't like that was worth any kind of money so I'm kind of stalled. I also don't shoot competition anymore or really even handgun hunt. Most of my range time is just plinking and for that a good old black gun does just fine and does it for 5-600 bucks and can double as home protection or carry guns. Yes I still take out a 1911 occasionally but probably shoot more 9s and 38s then everything else combined these days. There fun and cheap to shoot especially with cast. It cost me a few grains of powder and a primer. To many years of sitting on a bench fine tuning loads for competition and practicing for it kind of soured me on it. I have much more fun just shooting steel. But that's just me. Some have different needs.

I've had several 3K guns in my hands. Can't say I could justify having one myself. I shoot holes in paper and if the day ever arrived that I would go hunting I have 4) 44 magnums to choose from plus a 45LC. The 45acp 1911 is a plinker along with the 357's, 9mm, and 38's I own.

[Forrest r]

OP here.

I've a few 1911's including Colt, Kimber, Sig, Springfield and Dan wesson. I've owned a Smith E series in the past. All great 1911's and all reliable and accurate. Accuracy is better with my Springfield TRP and my Dan Wesson Specialist. The TRP and Specialist are definitely a slight cut above. I've always dreamt of a Brown, Bear, Wilson, Nighthawk or similar. Had a friend offer to sell me a Nighthawk GA Precision with threaded barrel and rail. But it's a rather steep entry price. Was just curious what everyone thought without being leading in the question. I could pick up a new Baer with 1.5" guarantee for about the same money. His MSRP new was almost $4k.

FWIW:
High end 1911's are absolutely worth owning at least 1 in your life. That being said you'll be hard pressed to have that Nighthawk GA Precision run circles around your TPR or specialist. I'm sure the nighthawk is an extremely high end 1911. The real issue is how it's dressed. Fixed sights or a laser do nothing but take any build/quality advantage out of play.

IMHO:
If I was going to buy a high end 1911 it would be setup to take advantage of build quality. Namely setup with adjustable target sight, reddots,etc.

There's a bunch of the Nighthawk GA Precision 1911's out there for sale for a reason.

[gray wolf]

209648209649209650


High end guns are nice, if you can afford one--hey why not.
All of these targets were shot with 100% stock guns.
ONE is with a pellet gun, the one marked as docs is a muzzle loader.
The 45acp is an 11 year old Springfield armory loaded with fixed sights.
The 44 is a super red hawk off a bench.

I might benefit from a high end gun,BUT ? how much?

I can say I would love to have one, wish I could have one, if I could afford one
I would have it in an instant, they are beautiful to behold.

But do I need one to shoot better ?

My Springfield with cheep G I mags just doesn't fail HP,s lead of any shape,
RN,s rnfp, whatever.

Yes more money gets you a better gun, but practice with the gun you shoot well gets you better targets.

[osteodoc08]

That's some nice shooting gray wolf

[tazman]

Just when a guy posts a target that would qualify him to be helped by a really high end 1911, you find out he shot the target with a stock gun.
I am jealous and wish I could shoot that well with any of my handguns.

[gray wolf]

Thank you, I am 76 in February, I was probably 72/73 when I shot those,
but I'm sure in my seventies.
I never seem to know when to stop, take the target with the red circles,
some folks can shoot one like that, cut it out for wallet shot.
No I have to keep going and shoot about 6 of them. I don't worry
about missing cause I know i am very capable of missing. I brush it off cause I know every human on earth
does it.

That particular string was with my 44 Mag. and a bunch of different bullets and different powder. I settled on 9.4 of unique for about 1050/1100 F P S from the 7.5" S R H
and 19 grains of 2400 for about 1300 F P S.
But thing is the gun shot very well with whatever I fed it.

Same with the stock Springfield shooting H&G #68, from an H&G 4 banger with tight group. 1911

I don't think there is a magic bullet, or a magic gun, there are spiffy looking bullets,
and beautiful well made pistols, But I do think a lot of the magic comes from behind the gun.

Allow me to emphasis again, I have no negative feelings against expensive pistols.
I love attention to detail, and quality workmanship.


I apologize to you all for the thread drift.

[Plate plinker]

Yes they are worth every penny. Shooting machines! Built to run and beautiful they are some are slick as glass and take the fun to a higher level.

[OS OK]

I can shoot tight groups like that too gray wolfe...just never can get a good picture though...the muzzle flash keeps setting the targets on fire!


:bigsmyl2:

[TXSlade]

My first 1911 was a cheap one back when I was a teenager. It was a ***. I have some friends with RIA's, they tend to be fine, but it is apparent they are not good about changing their barrel reamers before they get dull. I have seen several bad chambers, but, RIA is really good about replacing those bad barrels. So for the money, they are good guns.
In 2011 I bought a 100 year anniversary Colt Rail gun. It has been the best 1911 I have ever owned, until now.

This year, after years of agonizing over the cost, I bought a Wilson Combat, built to my specs, etc. It took 2 months to arrive, and when I finally got it I fell in love. Mine is polished blue, and just beautiful. The most important thing? The way it feels in the hand, in my 40+ years I have held many 1911's. And this gun feels the best. They have a Ryan Wilson high grip gun mod or some such thing, and it makes the gun feel smaller, which for my medium sized hands is heaven. As much as I loved my Colt, it feels like gripping a 2X4 now.

That is the best way I can describe some "high" end weapons. The things they do might be very subtle, but they are exquisite. I am no more accurate, but I like how it feels and I shoot it more. So I think I will end up shooting it more accurately. Is it worth the money? To me yes, but to a person with kids and bills, I would say grab a less expensive 1911 and make it work. That is what I did for many years, that *** I bought was a LLama, and I would say stay away from those. But RIA's are fine. Springfield's are fine and I have had great luck with Colt. My luck with Kimber has not been fantastic, but there are those who love them.

This Wilson Combat will be the last 1911 I buy.

[gray wolf]

and I shoot it more. So I think I will end up shooting it more accurately.
As for the above ? very good to excellent chance you are correct.

[500Linebaughbuck]

my 1911-a1 is a remington-rand and it was made in 1944. my dad, ahem, "got it" :oops: a week or two before june 6(he was in the first wave). it stayed with him throughout the war and it came back with him. i don't know how many shots he took after the war, but it probably is several thousands. he gave it to me right before he died and i have 7-8000 more shots. people say it must be junk until i take them out to the 25 yard range and i shoot all seven bullets 2 - 3" off hand. it may look like a junker but it ain't.