Do you give 10% to your church?

[6bg6ga]

I was raised a catholic and now I go to a christian church. I have a hard time with the money they expect one to give. They want 10% before taxes and I cannot give that. So, am I going to hell because I cannot give 10% of my earnings? I guess I could give if I didn't buy groceries and pay bills. I do repair their electronic gear for free but I was told that was not counted. I would have thought that giving of my time my experience and talent would be accepted as much as a money offering. If I didn't repair their electronics they would be spending some of the money they take in to pay for it from someone else.

When I was a catholic the parish asked for 5%. Now, some churches in my area would like to see Tax info to determine what your going to give. Maybe its more about the money than it is about saving souls anymore. There have been quite a few times when I have witnessed someone going into the church to talk to a priest or paster only to be asked if they have an appointment. Maybe whipping out the old check book would buy some time?

[richhodg66]

If they'e telling you you're going to Hell, you need to find a new church.

I have always been told that tithing can and should include things like your time and talents. Every church I've attended believes that too.

FWIW, I do give 10% and I can, but sometimes I wonder about it because it has basically become just like paying another bill to me when I think about it sometimes. If it really were such that I had to give 10% of my time, i.e., spend 2.4 hours of every day doing the Lord's work, I'd probably have a lot harder time coming up with that to give.

[2ndAmendmentNut]

The idea of 10% or a tithe is all through the Old Testament. Will you go to Hell for 5%? I won’t judge, but in a small parish you might experience a little hell over it.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Wayne Smith]

Always have, grew up that way. To confess, it wasn't always 'cheerful' as in "The Lord loves a cheerful giver". LOML and I both have that value, what we have is not ours, we are stewards or custodians of what God gives, and returning 10% is simply a way to acknowledge this.

[6bg6ga]

Always have, grew up that way. To confess, it wasn't always 'cheerful' as in "The Lord loves a cheerful giver". LOML and I both have that value, what we have is not ours, we are stewards or custodians of what God gives, and returning 10% is simply a way to acknowledge this.

To me its kinda like Obammer care. With Obammer care you have to pay for insurance without respect to your bills. I know people that had to make a choice of paying for insurance or putting food on the table or making a house payment. With giving your 10% its another choice of the house payment or food or bills just to pay that 10% first.

Yes, I could do the 10% and not pay other bills but I think God has to take that into consideration. Does God want you out into the cold without a home or without food? I don't think so.

I think God would understand that you give what you can afford to give. I give with my talents using what God has given me to pay back his church. I could easily charge $150-300 the going rate for one of my repairs but I choose to donate the parts and my labor the labor of love back to God.

[6bg6ga]

If they'e telling you you're going to Hell, you need to find a new church.

I have always been told that tithing can and should include things like your time and talents. Every church I've attended believes that too.

FWIW, I do give 10% and I can, but sometimes I wonder about it because it has basically become just like paying another bill to me when I think about it sometimes. If it really were such that I had to give 10% of my time, i.e., spend 2.4 hours of every day doing the Lord's work, I'd probably have a lot harder time coming up with that to give.

No one told me I was going to go to hell for not giving 5% or 10% but I do feel they look down when you don't.

[GhostHawk]

I did tithe for years, faithfully. Until I found out that 40% of all that came in went to the parent church. And the national church was using those funds to promote gun control, and were giving money to terrorists.

Pastor and I had a few conversations about it. The best he came up with, was he said I could earmark my givings to be used only on our local church, for maintenance, upkeep, etc.

And I countered with, and ever dollar I do that with means another dollar from someone else that you can send to your liberal policys? He said yes, that is true.

I said when the Methodist church gets out of gun control lobbying I'll reconsider.

Still waiting.

[CastingFool]

My answer to the first question is yes. Never had a problem giving 10% to the Lord. In fact, I firmly believe our present economic condition is due to the Lord's blessing on our faithfulness in giving. The Lord knows our hearts and has blessed us accordingly.

[JBinMN]

1) Time = $$, meaning time spent doing charitable work should be just as much value as if you paid $$.

2) Some reading for ya: https://bible.org/seriespage/lesson-4-why-you-should-not-tithe-selected-scriptures

3) 2 Corinthians 8:12New Revised Standard Version (NRSV)

12 For if the eagerness is there, the gift is acceptable according to what one has—not according to what one does not have.

---------------------------

These are "my" opinions. You obviously have to make up your own mind to satisfy your own conscience. IMO, ones giving of time and/or $$ is not to be decided on by the church I am going to be attending, but by me. IMO, "time" is more valuable than $$. Let me be a bit more specific. IF someone is on a limited/fixed income, perhaps retired/disabled & it is $1000.00 a month, then their "required" tithe would be $100.00/month according to the church referenced in the OP. If someone elses income from working full time is $4000.00 per month, then it would be $400.00/month according to the church in the OP. The persons time in the first example is worth more than what their income in $$ since they have the time to do charitable work for the church, while the person who is working has less time to work for the church, but has more $$ to give instead of time.

Now, this can change due to other factors, like how many mouths to feed, shelter & clothes, etc.(Cost of Living/COL). One who has more $$, but has more need for spending on the "cost of living" due to family members who need support, may find themselves "short" each month if they tithe $$ to the church & perhaps end up having to have help from the church to make ends meet. So, in that case tithing would be a burden & the church should be in turn, helping out the one(s) who is in need...
While someone who has less $$ to spend, but more time to spare & themselves to account for "COL" may be able to cover their living expenses, but has time to help out at the church and/or other charitable events. So, that "time" should be acceptable just as much as any $$.

Is not giving of your time to the church satisfactory & they will only accept just $$ as the "required" tithe? If so, I would be looking for another church as well, like someone earlier suggested.

Is there no value to doing charitable work? And is the person who gives $$, rather than time, more important than the one who is willing to give their time since they have more time and less $$?

Finally, let me ask you what a fair & just God, or Jesus would do? Or accept? And do you feel comfortable with how you think God & Jesus would consider what you do, either by time or $$?

(All rhetorical questions above, just somethings to ponder on...)

Personally, I would do what I felt was right in my heart & not what others told me to do in regard to whom I am charitable to & why. When it comes down to it, those decisions I make concerning this will be between me, my Maker, & my Savior, not others here on Earth.

Give what you feel in good conscience you can afford, be it time or $$. The judgement is later, not here.

YMMV, of course... G'Luck! in your decisions.

[Hickok]

Yea I tithe. The tithe is used for God's work, so my tithe doesn't always go to our church. If some one is needy, someone has a special circumstance, a family with an urgent lack of money, then I give some or all the tithe to help.

The tithe will not get you to heaven or put you in hell. It is an act showing respect and thankfulness for God's provision to you, by sharing and returning what He has provided.

[pworley1]

I grew up in a tithing home and never gave not tithing a thought. The first check we write each month is the tithe. The amount you can give is a personal matter and not up to the church you attend. The church may get the check but the tithe is the Lord's. I think that thinking of the tithe as having to give 10% to the Lord is not the correct way of thinking of tithing. If you acknowledge that everything is made by and belongs to the Lord, then the tithe is not giving back 10%, but it is the Lord allowing you to keep 90%.

[Ickisrulz]

Tithing is a command under the Old Covenant with Israel. The giving of 10% is not commanded for members of the Church. What is required of the Church is taking care of those that have genuine needs that they cannot meet themselves. Support of those that "labor in the Word" is also encouraged.

I have heard of churches that make a big deal of how much people give, but have never attended one. I doubt I would last long in one.

[claude]

It would help if people understood what one tithes of, one is not expected by God to tithe of their gross, but of their increase. That means what is left over after all your legitimate expenses, further more, being guilt tripped into tithing on ssi/ssd is extremely questionable. (Satan loves to use guilt)

Documentation;

Deu 14:22 Thou shalt truly tithe all the increase of thy seed, that the field bringeth forth year by year.

Deu 14:28 At the end of three years thou shalt bring forth all the tithe of thine increase the same year, and shalt lay it up within thy gates:

2Ch 31:5 And as soon as the commandment came abroad, the children of Israel brought in abundance the firstfruits of corn, wine, and oil, and honey, and of all the increase of the field; and the tithe of all things brought they in abundantly.

The principle is constant, God doesn't change, if you have no increase to tithe, don't tithe. Churches that rob you blind with tithes of your gross and threaten you with dire punishments are not righteous.

More importantly, tithing is a personal matter between yourself and your maker, and some sweaty handed, one verse charlie has zero business telling you how, when, or how much you must tithe.

Just winning friends and influencing people. . . .

[Thundarstick]

I'm in complete agreement with Ickisrulz! Tithe, tithing, and tithes are an Old Testament command and concept. Under the old law the "church" was also the government and as such, theirs was a tax!
In the New Testament were told God loves a cheerful giver, to give of our means as were blessed, and if our hearts not right or gifts count as nothing. Let's see what Jesus had to say about others knowing what we give.
Mat 6:1-4
Take heed that ye do not your alms before men, to be seen of them: otherwise ye have no reward of your Father which is in heaven.
Therefore when thou doest thine alms, do not sound a trumpet before thee, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may have glory of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.
But when thou doest alms, let not thy left hand know what thy right hand doeth:
That thine alms may be in secret: and thy Father which seeth in secret himself shall reward thee openly.

This is the very reason I give what I want, when I want, to whom I want, as God guides me. I give cash to my local church as well!

Pray for God to guide you, and he will. IMO tithing is misused in the Christian church to guilt the flock into into giving, not out of love and understanding.

[William Yanda]

My church teaches tithing. Enforcement is not considered, the act is left up to the individual believer.

[opos]

Where I go the organization is "self supporting through our own contributions"...my "donation" goes into the basked anonymously and nobody keeps a record of what I do or don't do...I got a real problem with someone setting an amount or percentage...and then being critical if I can't live up to that. Reminds me of a recent "Christmas season" plea for donations that came in the mail..you know the "unknown" charity that never shows up until it's the season to be jolly?
Stamped in red on the outside of the envelope was "SECOND NOTICE"...anyone think they will ever see anything from me?

[RichardF]

I give as I believe God directs. My church doesn’t have a number to shoot for, the idea being what a person gives is between him/her and God, which it is when all is said and done. That includes time and material donations. My experience has been that no pressure from the church makes it much easier and fulfilling to give whatever He puts on my heart to give.

[white eagle]

its all a scam
you must give but they are tax exempt
how does that figure

[skeet1]

It sounds like your "Christian" church isn't very Christian. All of the 10% quotes are from the Old Testament where legalism was the rule. I'm not saying that giving 10% is wrong in fact it is a wonderful thing, however it is not a requirement for getting to heaven.

Ken

[Ickisrulz]

its all a scam
you must give but they are tax exempt
how does that figure

The idea that Not for Profit organizations do not pay taxes is not a scam. It makes a lot of sense. Many such organizations do quite a bit of charity work that would otherwise be left to taxpayers to fund.

There are, of course, organizations where the leaders get rich and some churches fall in this category.

Just some general thoughts: I think a pastor's salary should be the average of his/her congregation's salary (if possible). However, a pastor should not receive his/her sole income from the church unless the scope of the work (in quantity and quality) makes it impossible to be employed somewhere else.

[Der Gebirgsjager]

I do tithe, but I split it between two churches with very similar doctrines, and between which I've never been able to choose. It's strictly on the honor system and between you and the Creator.

That having been said, the Good Book say one is to tithe "on their increase". So, the way one minister explained it to me, if you take a bus to work daily you can deduct the fare, if you're required to buy tools out of your pocket to perform the job you can deduct the cost of the tools, etc. Anything you have to spend to make your income is not part of your increase. After all of these things are deducted you should tithe 10% on what remains.

[Char-Gar]

Tithing is an Old Testament concept. The Pharisees obeyed it strictly even down to tithing the herbs in their gardens. We all know that these folks received heavy criticism from Jesus, so tithing can't be as important we most folks think.

I have been the Sr. Pastor of some very large churches and had the responsibility of meeting a $1,000,000.00 yearly Budget, so I understand some of the pressures on a Pastor when it comes to raising enough money to keep the church afloat.

Concerning money, in all my 37 years as a Pastor;

1. I never stressed tithing.
2. I encouraged people to prayerfully made a decision about their yearly commitment to the ministry of the church.
3. I told the people their giving was between them and God and whatever the decision was, it was OK with me.
4. I realized that some folks can't give much money, but they can support the church in other ways such as hours or service, prayers etc. etc.
5. I never knew how much people pledged or gave. I never wanted dollars to have any influence on how I considered and dealt with people. The ground at the foot of the cross is level and the rich do not stand on a high spot.

Yes, I do know that most pastors don't think they way I do. They give in to the financial pressures and place way to much importance on how much people give. I always figured if we as individuals and collectively as the church, were faithful to God, then He in return would be faithful to us and make certain we have the resources we needed to worship him and minister in the name of Jesus. In 37 years, He never let us down. No church ever has financial problems, they can however have spiritual problems which result in financial issues.

I would seriously question the spiritual condition of any church or pastor that would use threats of hell, or any kind of guilt trip to raise funds. This would not be a God thing, but a human thing.

I have lost many nights sleep over whether or not, my church could pay it's bills for the month. The stress of it, once put me in the hospital. However that was always a weakness of my faith, for God never let us down and no bills every went unpaid. I never threatened or manipulated anyone into giving anything. We are to be witnesses of God's grace on earth and not His hatchet men. "To God be the glory, great things he has done!".

Bottom line is institutional survival has become the principal purpose of many churches and God will not bless that. Sooner or later they will fall like a house of cards. So give of your time, talents and resources when, where and how God directs and sleep well, because you are at peace with God and yourself.

[WRideout]

When I came back to the church in my 30's, I started to give what I thought was an adequate amount to my church of membership. When I met the woman who became my wife, she taught me to give ten percent of our gross income; I'm not bragging. Back about 2006 I was earning a good salary as a consultant in an engineering company. After I lost my job, I got a Master of Divinity degree which allowed me entry into the field of social services, and cut my salary in half. We continued to tithe, as described. Today we are perfectly comfortable, and two years ago bought our first home together. I have lost exactly nothing. The ten percent rule is just a guideline that we both agree on.

Wayne

[flint45]

Don't get caught in legalism its not right. Find a church that teaches the truth and give what the Lord leads you to give through prayer.If they teach you are going to hell because you don't give 10 percent git out of that church now!

[dverna]

As touched on, back in the days, there was no government programs to assist those in need. The "church" took on these duties or the goodness of family and friends.

I currently give what I believe to be right in my circumstances...it is not 10% and likely will never be.

Also, I agree that providing services should not be discounted as "worthless" in terms of giving. If those who are able and willing to help did not provide their talents and energy to their church, someone would need to be paid to perform those duties.

I would swiftly leave any church that expected a certain amount of giving. The church is not God and never will be.

BTW, a few weeks ago one of the churches I attend (I live in two cities) asked for an outpouring of generosity to fund "needed" capital expansions. The church is never more than 50% full. I questioned this with my fiancé and was put down for my thoughts. I let it go. But my wallet and check book remain closed. Now, that church does many good works for the community and we do support them over and above the weekly giving.

[Char-Gar]

As touched on, back in the days, there was no government programs to assist those in need. The "church" took on these duties or the goodness of family and friends.

I currently give what I believe to be right in my circumstances...it is not 10% and likely will never be.

Also, I agree that providing services should not be discounted as "worthless" in terms of giving. If those who are able and willing to help did not provide their talents and energy to their church, someone would need to be paid to perform those duties.

I would swiftly leave any church that expected a certain amount of giving. The church is not God and never will be.

BTW, a few weeks ago one of the churches I attend (I live in two cities) asked for an outpouring of generosity to fund "needed" capital expansions. The church is never more than 50% full. I questioned this with my fiancé and was put down for my thoughts. I let it go. But my wallet and check book remain closed. Now, that church does many good works for the community and we do support them over and above the weekly giving.

I don't know what "capital improvements" means in the case at hand, but quite often churches defer basic maintenance to buildings until it becomes a crisis. Capital improvements for expansion and capital improvement for maintenance are two very different things.

[Santa Lee]

No one told me I was going to go to hell for not giving 5% or 10% but I do feel they look down when you don't.

Hmmm, don't let your left hand know what your right hand is doing? It is not their business to know. God doesn't need your money. Yes, it is or should be used to help those in need , pay the preacher, upkeep on the building etc.. I think we give to God what we have determined in our heart is the correct amount. We do this to show that we have faith that God will meet our needs. We do sometimes need to reevaluate what we truly need.

[dverna]

I don't know what "capital improvements" means in the case at hand, but quite often churches defer basic maintenance to buildings until it becomes a crisis. Capital improvements for expansion and capital improvement for maintenance are two very different things.

Char-Gar,

No these were not for maintenance items. It was for bigger facilities. BTW, the church has an operating budget of just over $1 million so it can cover all operating expenses. I am a recent member so cannot speak to the reserves it has for something major like a roof or HVAC replacement. But these were not what for something like that.

[shooterg]

I might end up at 10% of the take home some years, but I count any worthwhile charity/love offerings/etc. in, as I rarely attend organized services anymore.Gramps was a Southern Baptist minister, so he may be disappointed in me, but there ya go !

[Traffer]

We used to call it the "temple tax". All we want to know is "do you or do you not pay it?"

[jonp]

You are not going to hell and if a church even hint's at that then you need to find another one. The Tithe is a suggested amount of your income but if your hard set then you give what you can and that is the point. Everyone gives what they can give to support the Church and Charity. If you can't give that much then give what you are able. Believe me, God doesn't care about the amount, he cares that you are giving what you can.

Several churches down here actually have ATM's in their lobbies. I would never frequent a church like that.

A number of years ago I made the decision to not give outside of a small amount to the Church but instead donate directly to The Salvation Army and Catholic Charities among others.

[popper]

Religious institutions are charitable ( no 'product' or 'service' to tax) so are tax exempt. They do have programs and facilities to maintain and that does take money (don't know if the property is taxed but insurance is high). If it is worth your attendance, is it worth your financial support? The church I attend has voted to move & build new as the present facility has major maintenance costs. Going to be a rough road as most of the 'giving' part of the congregation is over 65. The alternative is to stay and spend most of the $$ for maintenance and salaries. Probably won't last long that way. Churches and preachers are disappearing fast due to $$. Do we want them to stay?

[whelenshooter]

However, a pastor should not receive his/her sole income from the church unless the scope of the work (in quantity and quality) makes it impossible to be employed somewhere else.

Interesting. Do you have a scriptual basis for that?
David

[Ickisrulz]

Interesting. Do you have a scriptual basis for that?
David

There is the recurring idea in the Bible that people are supposed to be gainfully employed (some contribution anyway) rather than living off of others. A pastor who works in/for his church 10-20 hours a week really isn't working at it full time and should not receive a full time salary. No one in the congregation can do this at their workplace.

Jesus and the Apostles earned livings for themselves and their families doing various forms of work (e.g., building and fishing) before the full time ministries started. Then with the traveling and teaching requirements they could no longer work full time and were supported to some extent by others.

The Apostle that had the greatest impact on New Testament theology was Paul. Even he was employed at certain periods during his ministry. He apparently had time to do so and chose to work rather than be compensated by other Christians.

[fatelk]

This issue has been a bit of an irritant for me. The church we used to attend before moving had the regular tithing sermon a couple times a year. I really respected the pastor there but they were going through a building campaign and he would occasionally push pretty hard- tithing is not just Old Testament and 10% is required, it must be 10% minimum to the local church for the basic tithe and any other offering above that or sent elsewhere was above that 10%, and it really should be on the gross paycheck , not net. I just couldn’t bring myself to agree to o that degree.

We did tithe that 10% (net) faithfully for many years, but recently cut it back a bit. Maybe that’s a shortcoming of faith on my part, but we just couldn’t make ends meet. The thing that irritates me the most is when I hear a sermon on finances and tithing where the pastor gives advice on how to be more frugal: Eat out less. Cut back on the morning lattes. Take a cheaper vacation. Wait an extra year to trade in for a new car.

1. We rarely ever eat out.
2. The total I’ve spent on drive through coffee in my life could come out of a $20 bill, with change.
3. What’s a vacation?
4. What’s a new car? Our newest vehicle is a 2001 with 260k miles on the odometer.

What we do give feels like a substantial sacrifice as it is. Maybe I’m wrong with that but it’s where we’re at.

[jakharath]

It seems there are a lot of what I call "Churches of the Holy Dollar" around. Our big First Baptist Church recently spent $400K on two video projectors. That's $400,000.00. They have millions tied up in their audio/video setup. Pretty sure that the church audio/video system requirements are covered in First Corinthians, or was that First Thessalonians? All joking aside, to each his own.

If the church is giving you grief over 10% then find another church.

[M-Tecs]

No only no but hell no. I stopped giving when they got into politics more than spiritual issues.

[FISH4BUGS]

I was raised a catholic and now I go to a christian church. I have a hard time with the money they expect one to give. They want 10% before taxes and I cannot give that. So, am I going to hell because I cannot give 10% of my earnings? I guess I could give if I didn't buy groceries and pay bills. I do repair their electronic gear for free but I was told that was not counted. I would have thought that giving of my time my experience and talent would be accepted as much as a money offering. If I didn't repair their electronics they would be spending some of the money they take in to pay for it from someone else.

When I was a catholic the parish asked for 5%. Now, some churches in my area would like to see Tax info to determine what your going to give. Maybe its more about the money than it is about saving souls anymore. There have been quite a few times when I have witnessed someone going into the church to talk to a priest or paster only to be asked if they have an appointment. Maybe whipping out the old check book would buy some time?

Sorry guys...this is one reason I have left organized religion. They make us feel guilty, afraid, worthless, and many other negatives.
Religion should be taught in a positive manner, not out of fear.
I'll worship my God in my own way and on my own time.

[Char-Gar]

It seems there are a lot of what I call "Churches of the Holy Dollar" around. Our big First Baptist Church recently spent $400K on two video projectors. That's $400,000.00. They have millions tied up in their audio/video setup. Pretty sure that the church audio/video system requirements are covered in First Corinthians, or was that First Thessalonians? All joking aside, to each his own.

If the church is giving you grief over 10% then find another church.

Many contemporary "worship" services are little more than entertainment and costs big bucks to put on a really good show.

[Preacher Jim]

I have never preached a tithing sermon. That said most of my folks give generously to support the church and as a church we support mission work.
You give because you love the Lord and want to further the kingdom work not because you have to. it is honoring God for all he gives us and returning a portion to his work.

[Hickok]

I have never preached a tithing sermon. That said most of my folks give generously to support the church and as a church we support mission work.
You give because you love the Lord and want to further the kingdom work not because you have to. it is honoring God for all he gives us and returning a portion to his work.My feelings also. Remember, we can't out give God! He always give us much more!

[bayjoe]

I believe religion is a persons own relationship with God and should be private. What you give at church is based on what you feel you want to give. You give what you can and go home with an unburdened heart.

[rancher1913]

we tithe but like some, do not like what the stewards of that tithe do with it so our tithe is not the 10%, we make up for it by giving to organizations that we feel use the money wisely, all are charities that help children directly.

[BNE]

Jesus is free. Any church that says you HAVE to give so much is not preaching from the Bible. I've read it through and there are clear examples of 10% being suggested, but I am not even convinced it was a law in the Mosaic law. (Biblical scholars can point me to a chapter and verse.)

I think the principle we miss is that God has no need of your money. He wants a relationship with us. He is perfect and can't have that relationship with us due to our shortcomings. Jesus is that filter between us and God. If we accept Jesus, God looks at us and sees Jesus.

We should give because we have been given something we could not hope to pay for.

[Bazoo]

I dont tithe to my church most of the time. Sometimes I'll give a couple bucks at the dinner we have once a month, but not a specific amount. If im not mistaken, you're supposed to tithe 10% of your increase. That is after bills, food, tax, gas if you ask me. So if you have 100 dollars left at the end of your financial month, you should tithe 10 dollars. I dont do that normally. But what I do is follow what I feel God wants me to do. If I feel lead to give of money or time or items, Then I try to do that. Sometimes its hard to follow what you think you feel God is leading you to do.

Personally I see that giving of time and talents is a greater gift than to give money, and should count MORE than any monetary gifts.

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Mark+12:41-44

[smokeywolf]

Perhaps I should not be commenting here as I got a bit soured on organized religion many decades ago.

Just as I don't believe giving more to the church buys your way into Heaven, giving less does not keep you out. I do not believe in ratios nor do I believe you should be telling the church how much you gross each month.

Giving of your time and knowledge is a great way to give, as it means your donation is helping your own parish or community. Giving cash means the church can now use your donation anywhere they want for any purpose they want.
I very much like the idea that my charity dollars help those in my local community.

I think it's very admirable to help the church bring the word of God to those sorely in need of it, much of my charitable giving has been to Salvation Army, Good Will, local missions and help centers.

When I was a working stiff and my employment was fairly predictable, I used to give a set dollar amount each month to a charity program set up by my employer, which distributed to a group of charities. You could specify how much went to each individual charity.

By giving to charities not directly governed by organized religion, I felt my money had a better chance of not being used for supporting open borders or amnesty for illegal/criminal aliens.

[lefty o]

if you are looked down on for not giving 10%, you arent in the house of god!

[Traffer]

On a side note. When cashiers in stores ask me if I want to donate a dollar to "such and such charity" I say No, Would such and such charity like to donate a dollar to me?. In the book of Acts they shared with everyone as they had need.I have challenged leaders of Congregations with this concept only to be branded as "divisive". I believe that if Jesus were in the flesh today many if not most churches would disparage him and even brand him as someone to stay away from. Such is the deceived state of the supposed "Church". So many people who believe that "they are the ones who are correct" are going to have quite an awakening on judgment day. This is my opinion. And everyone is entitled to my own opinion.

[6bg6ga]

1.Agree/disagree: In most cases, not giving more than 10 percent reflects a lukewarm heart toward God?

2.What is the biggest hindrance to generous giving among Christians? In your own life?

3.Should we give out of obedience even if we don’t feel like it? Isn’t that legalism?

4.If 10 percent isn’t the standard for giving, how do we know when our giving pleases God?

In trying to look up tithe in the bible I have seen some instances for and against. So, at this point I am more confused than before. I have also seen where acts such as donation of time are considered. So, for about everything saying yes 10% I have found others saying no to give what you can afford.

[6bg6ga]

One reference says yes and another says no. Should I flip a coin?

[Wayne Smith]

Jesus is free. Any church that says you HAVE to give so much is not preaching from the Bible. I've read it through and there are clear examples of 10% being suggested, but I am not even convinced it was a law in the Mosaic law. (Biblical scholars can point me to a chapter and verse.)

I think the principle we miss is that God has no need of your money. He wants a relationship with us. He is perfect and can't have that relationship with us due to our shortcomings. Jesus is that filter between us and God. If we accept Jesus, God looks at us and sees Jesus.

We should give because we have been given something we could not hope to pay for.

There are multiple chapters and verses. If you look at the whole list of tithes and offerings in the Old Testament you will account for about 30% of income. That is to support: local support for the poor, to support the Levites, (who were given no land for self support) to support the Temple, and to support the Kingdom. This latter tax varied by situation. This would be roughly equivalent to our property taxes (local) sales taxes (local and state) and income taxes plus tithe.

Yes, I have studied it, but my wife did the numbers.

[whelenshooter]

What is the Gospel (that Jesus freely died for your sins while you were His enemy) worth to you and what is it worth for that Gospel to be publicly proclaimed so that your neighbor hears it as well so that they too might be saved? That's the criteria for giving. The woman with the mites thought it was worth everything she had.

Supporting the church isn't primarily about providing worldly needs to fellow humans, although that is good and we are commanded to do so. Church is about proclaiming the mercy of God, forgiveness of sins in Christ and eternal life for those who receive that message in faith.

[popper]

So let's go to the beginning.
1) Cain didn't give what God wanted, then ended up killing the one who did. You decide 'why'.
2) We are first commanded to spread/teach the Word. If we don't support the churches, they will disappear and then who spreads the word? Yes, counties where Christianity is suppressed still have underground churches but WE have the opportunity to flourish without the extreme persecution.
3) Yes, the church leaders can go 'astray' about $$. Aka, temple leaders. Note Jesus's response to that problem.
4) Paul and others worked for a living, yet he did ask for a 'gift' for the Jerusalem church as they had little $$ support.

Your choice.
Edit: some added info for your perusing - https://www.prageru.com/videos/fascism-right-or-left

[RichardF]

When I run into situations where I am unable to discern from scripture or wise counsel, I tend to spend more time in prayer and seeking what God would have me do. He has called us to a life of peace, so the question to me is what amount and type of giving would allow you to be at peace with God?

[rosewood]

You are not giving 10% to your church, you are giving 10% to God. It is his anyway. And I can tell you from experience if you give God the 10% he ask you to give back to him, he will make your finances work out when you don't think they will. This is the only thing God ever tells you to test him with you. He will out give you. It is a hard concept to understand until you try it and find out yourself.

Rosewood

[rosewood]

One other thing, if you are going to a church, and you are not giving any, how do you expect it to keep it's doors open. It is funded strictly by donations. If you are not giving anything, that means others are having to pick up your slack.

Rosewood

[NoAngel]

Where did the notion of giving a tenth to ‘the church’ come from?
If there’s a scripture to support it I’d like to read it. Personally I think that ones cooked up and perpetuated by ‘the church’.
If you wanna tithe then give it to someone that actually needs it. Most churches have more money than I’ll ever have. Giving my money to someone who has more than I have doesn’t seem like helping the needy to me.
It’s not hard to find a hungry person. It’s not hard to find a little one that really needs some new shoes.

You give to get something in return. Don’t deny it. It’s true.
If you give properly, hiding your left hand from your right then you still get something in return. Blessings from God and a good feeling. Giving to get those things ain’t selfish.
I’ve give to ‘the church’ and I got squat in return. Thinner wallet.
I’ve done things directly, cutting out the middle man, and received a massive return on my investment.

God ain’t a number cruncher when it comes to this. He’s really really good figuring whether you did the best you could with what you have.
He gave you a conscience for a reason. If you haven’t seared it, you don’t need specific guidelines for charity. You just know. A clean heart and clear conscience has no room for greed.

[Ickisrulz]

You are not giving 10% to your church, you are giving 10% to God. It is his anyway. And I can tell you from experience if you give God the 10% he ask you to give back to him, he will make your finances work out when you don't think they will. This is the only thing God ever tells you to test him with you. He will out give you. It is a hard concept to understand until you try it and find out yourself.

Rosewood

God issued the challenge to Israel to tithe saying he would in turn bless them with material items. This does not carry over to the Church. The Church does not have the same promises of material prosperity and safety from enemies that Israel was given if she followed the Law.

There are many, many Christians in the world who are dirt poor and severely persecuted. It is not because they don't tithe.

[Ickisrulz]

Where did the notion of giving a tenth to ‘the church’ come from?

It came from peoples' inability to understand the differences between the Old Covenant and the New and the differences between Israel and the Church.

[whelenshooter]

It came from peoples' inability to understand the differences between the Old Covenant and the New and the differences between Israel and the Church.

Maybe the idea of the tithe came from the Old Testament but the gathering as Church and the supporting of the church and the preaching office are all through the New Testament.

Starting in Acts 2 and following you see the believers assembling (churching). The writer of Hebrews exhorts us not to stop gathering together, Hebrews 10:24-25. And the idea of supporting preachers/pastors with material goods is given in Romans 15:27, 1 Corinthians 9:11, and Galatians 6:6 and following to name but a few.

The reason people are miserly when it comes to supporting the church is they don't truly appreciate all the mercy God has shown them nor do they really desire it for their neighbor. In the end we love our worldly goods more than God and our fellow man. We also tend to think faith is a "I heard it one time and now I'm saved and have it all" kind of thing while it is patently obvious in the Scriptures from Israel to the New Testament Church that we have to hear the Word of God over and over and over again or we fall away as we are tempted continually. The devil and our own sinful nature never let up. They fight us all the way to the grave.

[whelenshooter]

He gave you a conscience for a reason. If you haven’t seared it
They're all seared and we all see dimly.

"For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I have been fully known." 1 Corinthians 13:12

[Ickisrulz]

Maybe the idea of the tithe came from the Old Testament but the gathering as Church and the supporting of the church and the preaching office are all through the New Testament.

As I said in a previous post:

"Tithing is a command under the Old Covenant with Israel. The giving of 10% is not commanded for members of the Church. What is required of the Church is taking care of those that have genuine needs that they cannot meet themselves. Support of those that "labor in the Word" is also encouraged."

As for motivation for why people support or do not support the church...well, motivation is a hard thing to nail down and varies from person to person.

[popper]

"Tithing is a command under the Old Covenant with Israel. The giving of 10% is not commanded for members of the Church. What is required of the Church is taking care of those that have genuine needs that they cannot meet themselves So tithing is an Old Testament/Covenant requirement and charity is New Testament/Covenant? Uh, no. Old testament definitely states take care of family and other Israelites. Benevolence to other than Israelites is mentioned also. Read history and find other Gov. that are 'charitable' to their people AND others? Won't find many that are NOT a derivative of Judaeo/Christians.
One could also read the Apocrypha; "Tobias, Judith, the Wisdom of Solomon, Baruch, and Maccabees, remain in the Catholic Bible. First Esdras, Second Esdras, Epistle of Jeremiah, Susanna, Bel and the Dragon, Prayer of Manasseh, Prayer of Azariah, and Laodiceans are not today considered part of the Catholic apocrypha. " (sic Wiki).

[Ickisrulz]

So tithing is an Old Testament/Covenant requirement and charity is New Testament/Covenant? Uh, no. Old testament definitely states take care of family and other Israelites. Benevolence to other than Israelites is mentioned also. Read history and find other Gov. that are 'charitable' to their people AND others? Won't find many that are NOT a derivative of Judaeo/Christians.
One could also read the Apocrypha; "Tobias, Judith, the Wisdom of Solomon, Baruch, and Maccabees, remain in the Catholic Bible. First Esdras, Second Esdras, Epistle of Jeremiah, Susanna, Bel and the Dragon, Prayer of Manasseh, Prayer of Azariah, and Laodiceans are not today considered part of the Catholic apocrypha. " (sic Wiki).

So you are saying mercy, kindness and charity were included in the Old Testament? I cannot disagree with that nor did I suggest it was not the case. But tithing is not commanded of the Church and that is what my response was answering.

[rosewood]

Someone said the church has more money than them, I ask the question once again, if people attending a church do not give, where does the church get money?

A church properly using the funds will give back to the community and spread the Gospel which is the great commission from Jesus. Money is required to make it happen.

Again, if you give faithfully, watch and see how God blesses you financially. I have seen it time and time again. Give it a try, you will be surprised. I know many folks that started giving 10% and were shocked at how the blessings came back to them. Many that insisted they "could not afford" to tithe and now somehow, their finances work out.

Rosewood

[rosewood]

Someone else may have mentioned it, but Tithe means a tenth. That is where 10% came from.

[whelenshooter]

[QUOTE=Ickisrulz;4228736As for motivation for why people support or do not support the church...well, motivation is a hard thing to nail down and varies from person to person.[/QUOTE]

It's not really. The middle verses of Romans 3 makes it plain why we do all the sinful things we do.

There may be all sorts of reasons to not support a given congregation. Hopefully it has to do with what is believed, taught and confessed. If that's the case then you find another congregation. But ultimately, not supporting the proclamation of the Word in The Church is because people see no value in it, comparatively speaking.

[popper]

The woman with the mites thought it was worth everything she had Now the interesting part. 1) Where were the priests? - the Deacon's purpose per Paul.
2) Where were her kin? - by law, to support her.
3) the really interesting one, was Eve required to give a tithe/offering? were women required to give tithe/offerings?
4) as a Jew, Jesus did tithe. To NOT do so would have been sin - he was a working carpenter.
5) He never said offerings/tithe was wrong, only the improper use of such by the 'temple officials'.
6) He never said taxes were wrong either.
One should apply His statements to 'church officials' as needed.
Got the email yesterday, $100k below budget this year and trying to raise $3M for a new facility.

[Ickisrulz]

Traditional interpretations of the story of "The Widow's Mites" have always bothered me. Giving away everything you have seems a rather foolish thing to do. Did Jesus really teach we should give until it hurts? Would anyone seriously council a fellow Christian to ignore their basic material needs and donate all their money to the church?

Was Jesus praising the widow's generosity or criticizing the "teachers of the Law?"

Luke 12:38-40 precedes the story of the widow and gives the needed context:

As he taught, Jesus said, “Watch out for the teachers of the law. They like to walk around in flowing robes and be greeted with respect in the marketplaces, and have the most important seats in the synagogues and the places of honor at banquets. They devour widows’ houses and for a show make lengthy prayers. These men will be punished most severely.”

Immediately after this passage we have the story of the widow's offering.

Jesus was pointing out that the "teachers of the Law" demanded offerings that hurt the givers in the name of God. The widow who threw in her two mites was an example of the harm the demand for offerings can cause. The teachers themselves had plenty of money and therefore could give freely from their excess. The widow was not in the same position.

My view is that the story of the widow's mites is a lesson to show how religious leaders placed burdens on people that they could not bear and did not originate with God.

[whelenshooter]

Now the interesting part. 1) Where were the priests? - the Deacon's purpose per Paul.
2) Where were her kin? - by law, to support her.
3) the really interesting one, was Eve required to give a tithe/offering? were women required to give tithe/offerings?
4) as a Jew, Jesus did tithe. To NOT do so would have been sin - he was a working carpenter.
5) He never said offerings/tithe was wrong, only the improper use of such by the 'temple officials'.
6) He never said taxes were wrong either.
One should apply His statements to 'church officials' as needed.
Got the email yesterday, $100k below budget this year and trying to raise $3M for a new facility.
1. Don't know that they knew her situation. But as said earlier Judaism commanded care for the neighbor. If they knew and didn't help they were derelict as were the other worshippers.
2. Appears she is a 'full' (my term) widow and not simply a woman who lost her husband. She probably had no kin left. This is addressed by the New Testament, Paul, I believe.
3. Eve died before the Law was given. Not sure about the requirement for women without husbands but otherwise this would have been a duty for the head of household.
4. Yes, Jesus kept all of the Law perfectly.
5. He does free us from the ceremonial law and from having to keep any law to be saved. However He does maintain we're to remember the Sabbath day by keeping it holy. So He doesn't suspend attending church nor our privilege to support the same.
6. As much as I would like it if He didn't, He said to render unto Caesar. Pay your taxes. But vote and try to change wastefulness.

Regarding your last statement, all churches are full of sinners and as such they make bad decisions at times. It's up to congregants to reform their churches when they get off track. Church attendance isn't a spectator sport. Get involved. But be informed on the Scriptures and your church's doctrine.

David

[whelenshooter]

My view is that the story of the widow's mites is a lesson to show how religious leaders placed burdens on people that they could not bear and did not originate with God.

The teachers were hypocrites, the rich gave what was comfortable and they widow gave everything out of her poverty. Jesus holds her up as an example to shame them but He never indicates that He views what she did negatively or that she shouldn't have. He also doesn't command us to do so. That's not the point there. The Acts Christians also sold everything they had and held it in common and used it to support one another and the assembly. But there's no command to do that either. The Scriptures are simply showing people's love for God and His Church and how they supported it. The Word meant something to them.
David

[Preacher Jim]

Fellow named J.C Penny gave God 90% and lived on 10% according to old story. Told his employees if they tithed and giving to God caused them financial hard ship he would refund the amount. According to the story not one person missed what they gave to the Lord an the rest seemed th go further. Do not know if that is true but I do know the Lord has never failed to meet our needs. Have you tried or or you just robbing God and making excuses to cover your actions. Tough question but requires a heart examined answer

[lefty o]

Fellow named J.C Penny gave God 90% and lived on 10% according to old story. Told his employees if they tithed and giving to God caused them financial hard ship he would refund the amount. According to the story not one person missed what they gave to the Lord an the rest seemed th go further. Do not know if that is true but I do know the Lord has never failed to meet our needs. Have you tried or or you just robbing God and making excuses to cover your actions. Tough question but requires a heart examined answer

robbing god? god has no need of your money, the church on the other hand is a different story.

[Char-Gar]

. Have you tried or or you just robbing God and making excuses to cover your actions. Tough question but requires a heart examined answer

Now there is a well practiced preacher guilt inducing phrase. Robbing God, really?

[opos]

I realize the attachment folks have to their church but got a basic question...if there were no stone and mortar "church building" would the religion people choose to follow then not exist? I've watched churches for the many years I've lived and the funding becomes almost an addiction.

When I was young we carried folding chairs in my old pickup to a dance studio in Northern Colorado...we set up the chairs and Father Malcom Boyd conducted his services there 3 times on Sunday...it didn't require much if any money at all...people attended...there was food after church that the members brought and when there was a baptism (2 of my kids were baptized by Father Graham) it was not conducted in a fancy "nook" in a high dollar church setting...it was simple and in the same "dance studio" where the services were held...are they less baptized than if they had been at St. John's in Denver? I think not.

The "trappings" do not mean much to me...the spirit (and I am not a Christian in the strictest sense of the word) seems to be wherever I am willing to meet him...Where I attend my spiritual services it might be any day of the week...it might be most any time of the day or evening..and it may be in a church basement, a county building rec room, a library, a restaurant banquet room,etc...the money comes strictly from a basket being passed and the literature is free to those that can't afford it and at cost for those that can...if we had to build a building, outfit it and pay someone to operate it...we'd have to just shut down.

Different strokes for different folks..I put an amount in the basket that is more than most and less than some...I don't care if the person next to me can put anything in the basket or not and frankly if he or she needs a burger I'd rather they take a couple of bucks out of the basket..I've attended these kinds of get togethers for over 3 decades now..and somehow it always gets "funded" and just marches on..Thank God.

[fatelk]

Again, if you give faithfully, watch and see how God blesses you financially. I have seen it time and time again. Give it a try, you will be surprised. I know many folks that started giving 10% and were shocked at how the blessings came back to them. Many that insisted they "could not afford" to tithe and now somehow, their finances work out.

Not to be argumentative, and I do believe that giving is important, but I've also heard that many times over the years. We faithfully tithed for over a decade, through thick and thin, even through a time of unemployment and underemployment.

Due to increasing cost of living (growing family) and changes at work, things have become very tight. We have everything we need and have no debt besides the house, but we are extremely frugal and as time goes on we find monthly outgo often exceeds monthly income.

I'm at the point in life that saving for retirement and putting something aside to help the kids with college expenses in the near future should be important for us, and at this point there's just no way to do that. We still give, but have backed off of the magical 10%.

My question for those that say I'm robbing God by giving less is this (not picking on anyone here, I've heard that phrase in many a sermon): should I continue to give beyond our means, forgo any thought of saving for the future, and have faith that money will appear somehow when we need it? My wife feels that way but defers to my financial concerns. Should I do as she wants, and just hope that we win the lottery or something in the future? This is a sincere question.

I heard many a testimony from people who attribute their financial success to the fact that they tithe. Not to knock them but I've also known many financially successful people who give little or nothing. I think the personal benefits of giving are not always (or necessarily at all) financial success.

[lefty o]

Not to be argumentative, and I do believe that giving is important, but I've also heard that many times over the years. We faithfully tithed for over a decade, through thick and thin, even through a time of unemployment and underemployment.

Due to increasing cost of living (growing family) and changes at work, things have become very tight. We have everything we need and have no debt besides the house, but we are extremely frugal and as time goes on we find monthly outgo often exceeds monthly income.

I'm at the point in life that saving for retirement and putting something aside to help the kids with college expenses in the near future should be important for us, and at this point there's just no way to do that. We still give, but have backed off of the magical 10%.

My question for those that say I'm robbing God by giving less is this (not picking on anyone here, I've heard that phrase in many a sermon): should I continue to give beyond our means, forgo any thought of saving for the future, and have faith that money will appear somehow when we need it? My wife feels that way but defers to my financial concerns. Should I do as she wants, and just hope that we win the lottery or something in the future? This is a sincere question.

I heard many a testimony from people who attribute their financial success to the fact that they tithe. Not to knock them but I've also known many financially successful people who give little or nothing. I think the personal benefits of giving are not always (or necessarily at all) financial success.

i guess it comes down to how much faith do you really have?

[fatelk]

Faith is a difficult subject for me. I think I have faith; I want to have faith. I know I'm lacking but to what degree?

I remember reading a story of a guy in India that a friend of mine really respected. The guy was a native Christian convert that became a missionary to his own people. Admirable, but there was a number of things that he wrote that made me really wonder and question where he was coming from. One of those was where he wrote about his admiration of a fellow native missionary who felt called to give away what he had and take his family to be a missionary to another part of the country. They suffered terribly, to the point that his wife starved to death. The author was so impressed that this other guy had such strong faith that he did as he felt called and his wife died as a result. Is my faith weak because I'm unwilling to face not being able to provide for my family? I'm sorry but I have a problem with that.

If we weren't so frugal, if we drove new cars and bought morning lattes, and then complained that we couldn't afford to give, then I'd agree about a serious need for a change of heart.

[fatelk]

i guess it comes down to how much faith do you really have?

Apparently not enough. Personally I'm inclined to think that the whole "If you tithe God will make you rich" and "If you don't you're robbing God" thing is a bit of a stretch, often pushed by well-meaning pastors with building projects. I can pretty much guarantee you that our 5 or 6% is a lot more of a sacrifice for us than the 10% tithe is for some holier-than-thou folks. That 5+% is still the largest discretionary expenditure of the year.

I had a conversation once with a financial expert, and was told basically that I was an idiot for tithing, given our tight finances and inability to save anything for the future. We continue to give anyhow, just now a smaller percentage. Am I really robbing God?

[lefty o]

Apparently not enough. Personally I'm inclined to think that the whole "If you tithe God will make you rich" and "If you don't you're robbing God" thing is a bit of a stretch, often pushed by well-meaning pastors with building projects. I can pretty much guarantee you that our 5 or 6% is a lot more of a sacrifice for us than the 10% tithe is for some holier-than-thou folks.

I had a conversation once with a financial expert, and was told basically that I was an idiot for tithing, given our tight finances and inability to save anything for the future. We continue to give anyhow, just now a smaller percentage. Am I really robbing God?

i agree with you 100%. in short, no you are not robbing God.

[Char-Gar]

i agree with you 100%. in short, no you are not robbing God.

"Robbing God" is an artificial metaphor that has nothing to do with our creator God and our relationship to him. It has everything to do with a human institution, i.e. a church, and nothing to do with God. I am truly sorry, sorry that it has shown up in this conversation.

[lefty o]

"Robbing God" is an artificial metaphor that has nothing to do with our creator God and our relationship to him. It has everything to do with a human institution, i.e. a church, and nothing to do with God. I am truly sorry, sorry that it has shown up in this conversation.

it came from a preacher, what ya gonna do?

[fatelk]

By the way, when I mentioned "holier-than-thou" folks, I wasn't referring to anyone here. This is a sincere issue that I do think about, and my wife and I have discussed many times.

This has been a civil discussion. I'm not offended and I hope I haven't offended anyone. To those of you that tithe a full 10% or more, I don't mean any disrespect at all. I do think giving is important and if you can do 50%, more power to you, all the better!

I think it's a very personal thing, and while sacrifice is important, it's more important to have the right attitude about it.

[fatelk]

"Robbing God" is an artificial metaphor that has nothing to do with our creator God and our relationship to him. It has everything to do with a human institution, i.e. a church, and nothing to do with God. I am truly sorry, sorry that it has shown up in this conversation.

I remember the phrase from a sermon that our previous pastor gave during a building campaign. He's a good man and I respect him as a pastor, but I kind of felt like he had some sermons from a book on how to milk the congregation for a building campaign. I think the actual phrase he used was something like "I'm not saying you're robbing God if you don't give 10%, but... you know... if the shoe fits..."

We raised the money and built a nice big building. After it was built the church went through some troubles. A lot of long time people left, they had to lay off the well loved associate pastor because they couldn't pay him and the big new mortgage. Then the pastor left on short notice to go to a mega-church out of state. He always liked mega-churches and the way they do things, with lots of flash and show. Again, a very sincere, good man, but with a little different perspective than myself.

People complain about churches, but the real problem with churches is that they are full of people. Even at our best we're imperfect, fallen creatures. If you ever find a perfect church you'd better not attend, because then it wouldn't be perfect anymore! :)

[andre3k]

I've never tithed. But I do believe in giving. I stopped going to my last church when the minister asked every family to donate $500 because it was time to get new rotor blades for the "church" helicopter.

[Thundarstick]

Pagan Christianity by Frank Viola is a very good read on church, churches, and churching.

This thread shows how much lack of understanding and inability to rightly devide the word.
Go to any of your churches on Sunday morning, where I attend included, look at the cars in the parking lot and the cloths we wear and tell me how many there give till it hurts? Then go to members homes and ask the same question. The real answer is, you can't give enough, but you are to be responsible for the things you are given and how you use them. Something else to keep in mind, money just does not cure spiritual ills! I've known wonderful spiritual Christians both rich and poor in money, all rich in the spirit though!

[Preacher Jim]

The book of Malachi in the bible is a good place to find robbing God

[6bg6ga]

I've examined my finances many times. If I take 10% of my gross out I don't have money to make the motgage payment or to pay utility bills or to purchase groceries. My wife works but not full time. I have a second job of repairing the electronics that come thru the shop where I still work. My second job is feast or famine. There are some months where I don't repair a thing and others when I do make some money. I fund my churches electronic repairs from my repair fund so it doesn't cost them anything in parts or labor. I have also repaired equipment for other small churches that just didn't have the money for repairs or replacement.

I guess I don't have any faith either that or I have common sense. If I remove 10% off the top it isn't going to come back to me it just doesn't happen. A-B=C and B doesn't automatically come back or change somehow so that A is larger. The logic is simple.... take the gross remove 10% and you have a lesser amount and just because you removed 10% doesn't mean that the next months gross is going to be larger.

I give what I can in monitary amount and I give of myself my talents and gifts that God has given me and donate the parts. Now, my time as I mentioned should be as good a money any day of the week. Anyone telling me that my time my education my experience in repair isn't worth anything in my opinion needs their head examined. As I mentioned earlier the church would have spent hundreds if not thousands of dollars taking their malfunctioning and broken electronics to another shop. I saved them a considerable amount of money considering they paid out nothing for my repairs other than having someone at the church to spend 5 minutes with me to tell me the problem or help load up equipment into my SUV.

[Preacher Jim]

As I said earlier I never preach a tithing sermon every one of you have to work out your relationship with the Lord personally, grow in that relationship as you grow in faith . I see a lot of folks defending themselves but not the Lord. you serve the Lord with all your heart. He will bless you. The church some good some greatly misguided is the body of Christ. The church is not a building it is each of you coming together to worship the Lord. The time you give the Lord in service is also part of returning tithes to the Lord, your money you give supports the work of the ministry. God wants your heart to trust him, follow Him, serve Him. Not some misguided preacher, I learned early on there are preachers called by God and preachers called by momma. You have to discern the truth, follow the truth, and as Jesus said the truth will set you free.
I have read all the posts and find many seem to be written by folks who need to learn to trust Jesus an quit making excuses why they don't do something and ask the Lord what they should be doing.

[6bg6ga]

As I said earlier I never preach a tithing sermon every one of you have to work out your relationship with the Lord personally, grow in that relationship as you grow in faith . I see a lot of folks defending themselves but not the Lord. you serve the Lord with all your heart. He will bless you. The church some good some greatly misguided is the body of Christ. The church is not a building it is each of you coming together to worship the Lord. The time you give the Lord in service is also part of returning tithes to the Lord, your money you give supports the work of the ministry. God wants your heart to trust him, follow Him, serve Him. Not some misguided preacher, I learned early on there are preachers called by God and preachers called by momma. You have to discern the truth, follow the truth, and as Jesus said the truth will set you free.
I have read all the posts and find many seem to be written by folks who need to learn to trust Jesus an quit making excuses why they don't do something and ask the Lord what they should be doing.

Since this is probably directed to me I will answer.

I can only see the logical here. If I take away from my gross I don't have enough funds to pay all my bills. No amount of faith is going to bring back the money that is gone. If I really had it I wouldn't have a problem. I don't I cannot put it out without putting my family in a hardship. I won't loose the house to make that 10% and end up living under a bridge somewhere.

It would seem that your attitude mave have taken a change?

My church halfway thru the year brings in 1.5 Million. My church is blessed with a lot of people that can afford 10% or 25% or more. My church also needs to come to the realization that seemless video switchers that are two years old and function correctly don't need upgraded. My church should have sourced their audio system locally and they would have gotten their moneys worth. Sometimes having an excess of money = the inability to make good decisions. Maybe part of this wanting a full 10% is fueled by the lack of decent leadership.

[Char-Gar]

I remember the phrase from a sermon that our previous pastor gave during a building campaign. He's a good man and I respect him as a pastor, but I kind of felt like he had some sermons from a book on how to milk the congregation for a building campaign. I think the actual phrase he used was something like "I'm not saying you're robbing God if you don't give 10%, but... you know... if the shoe fits..."

We raised the money and built a nice big building. After it was built the church went through some troubles. A lot of long time people left, they had to lay off the well loved associate pastor because they couldn't pay him and the big new mortgage. Then the pastor left on short notice to go to a mega-church out of state. He always liked mega-churches and the way they do things, with lots of flash and show. Again, a very sincere, good man, but with a little different perspective than myself.

People complain about churches, but the real problem with churches is that they are full of people. Even at our best we're imperfect, fallen creatures. If you ever find a perfect church you'd better not attend, because then it wouldn't be perfect anymore! :)

I have seen the same scenario play out several times. A pastor over builds, lays debts on the church and uses his "success" to move on leaving the debt for his successor to deal with. I have been that successor on two occasions. I have seen the conflict that follows and had the task of rebuilding the church as a Christian community and digging the church out of the burdensome debt.

I am not as charitable as you are in thinking, about the culprit pastor. These types are mostly One Eyed Jacks, and being in the same profession, I see the other side of their faces.

Lots of good faithful Pastor, but there is also a fair share of opportunistic career track people, that use churches like rungs on a ladder. I guess it is a testimony to the faith of the church members that they can't often see the difference. I have known pastors I would not trust with my wife, daughter or a $100.00 bill.

I trust Jesus completely and totally, Pastors and religious institutions not so much. Scripture tells us the church is of God and will endure forever. I believe that and scripture is talking about the invisible universal faith community of believers in Jesus. It is not necessary taking about the building at Whatever and Whichever street with a sign out front that says "Church".

[dverna]

In the book of Leviticus, 27:30, there is an interesting passage about tithing. It appears that a donor may redeem their crop tithe for its market value, plus 20%. Thus, a donor who had experienced a shortage of grain, could buy back his tithe for it's value plus 20%.

This is very interesting. It may reflect that we are to give more than we need, but the Lord will still provide, as we can acquire whatever we need by trading something else the Lord has given us in abundance. Of course, it would not apply to animals as they would be sacrificed and thus not redeemable. The need to redeem at a 20% mark up seems a bit strange and I do not understand why God would need to profit....but that is what it says.

[Thundarstick]

A pastor over builds, lays debts on the church and uses his "success" to move on leaving the debt for his successor to deal with.

Are you saying that one man is in charge of making the long term, or for that matter any, financial descisions for a congergation? That in and of itself would turn me away if it's so.

[Char-Gar]

The book of Malachi in the bible is a good place to find robbing God

Malachi is the last book in the OT and was written 100 years or so after the Jews had returned from Babylon and rebuilt the Temple. Now the Priesthood was corrupt and the people apathetic. Malachi was telling them of upcoming judgment and the need of salvation.

I fail to see how this is relevant to not giving 10% of your income to your local religious institution that may or may not be using it wisely. The situation to which Malachi was speaking is not analogous to the questions posed by this thread.

[Char-Gar]

A pastor over builds, lays debts on the church and uses his "success" to move on leaving the debt for his successor to deal with.

Are you saying that one man is in charge of making the long term, or for that matter any, financial descisions for a congergation? That in and of itself would turn me away if it's so.

The level of decision making authority vested in the Pastor, varies from denomination and institution. Some religious groups are entirely Pastor lead, others have lay leadership as well. Even with lay leadership, the Pastor being the spiritual leader, is in the position to posit and convince, the lay leadership, about the best direction for the church to go into the future. Pastor's may not be the ultimate decision maker, but they do have great influence on the decision making process.

The quality of clergy and lay leadership varies quite a bit, so mistakes in decision making are not rare.

[lefty o]

As I said earlier I never preach a tithing sermon every one of you have to work out your relationship with the Lord personally, grow in that relationship as you grow in faith . I see a lot of folks defending themselves but not the Lord. you serve the Lord with all your heart. He will bless you. The church some good some greatly misguided is the body of Christ. The church is not a building it is each of you coming together to worship the Lord. The time you give the Lord in service is also part of returning tithes to the Lord, your money you give supports the work of the ministry. God wants your heart to trust him, follow Him, serve Him. Not some misguided preacher, I learned early on there are preachers called by God and preachers called by momma. You have to discern the truth, follow the truth, and as Jesus said the truth will set you free.
I have read all the posts and find many seem to be written by folks who need to learn to trust Jesus an quit making excuses why they don't do something and ask the Lord what they should be doing.

wow a little touchy arent we?

[Handloader109]

I'm late to the discussion, but a few points to consider......
I'm an adhere to a Lot of what Dave Ramsey has said. Not all, but most. He has mentioned tithing a number of times and if you haven't heard what he's said, go take a listen, it won't take long. He IS an evangelical Christian, so that is a big influence. But one other point, that is VERY significant to a lot of churches that push tithing, is DEBT. If your Church has significant DEBT, they aren't following scripture either.
Now massive DEBT and tithing REQUIREMENTS, are two primary reasons why I don't attend a church at this time. Past experience soured my when my father, who was a founder in my youth church, was sick and ill. Building larger and larger buildings that were NOT required, but WANTED was more important to the administration and I left the church. A lot of good folks, but poor management. I'm long gone from the area and so were most of the folks there too.....
IMO,
Give what YOU are able and Believe that YOU should Give. If it is a dime in the offering plate, or a dollar or ten thousand dollars, It is of no concern to anyone but YOU and God.

Anyone preaching that you MUST give past your means needs to be ignored. Go find another church that meets your needs. This one is in TROUBLE financially I expect.

[popper]

Don - The need to redeem at a 20% mark up seems a bit strange and I do not understand why God would need to profit - crop is laid up as offering but storage/threshing costs need to be paid? Back to the widow mite - an allegory for sure - so no way of knowing the 'situation'. The law was given to Adam & Eve - Cain told God " am I my brother's keeper?". A rhetorical question. It was 'given', written, to Moses, as a MEMO - we are NOT keeping it. I find no evidence in any scripture that women at any time were required or expected to provide a tithe or offering. As a guard was placed next to the tithe box, would that 'event' not be very startling to the 'officials'?
Last nite's election in Al. shows how far out of control our Gov. is at all levels and the comments here also show how far out of control the churches are. As Malachi (& many others) points out, a reckoning is coming soon.
(Congress has just shown their interest is in eliminating the Executive branch of our Gov. to only be a 'rubber-stamp' position). If you belong to a denomination that 'votes' for church issues, you find that 60% of the congregation votes to go along with the preacher. It's a given. If the going gets rough, they then vote with their feet.

[snowwolfe]

10%? Never have and never will. But if I ever come into a nice sum of money you can bet St Judes Children's hospital will get a big chunk of it. But a church? Never.

[largom]

You cannot BUY your way to heaven with money! I gave up going to church, instead I study the religions of the American Indians. Some would jump up and down on me for that but the Native Americans were more religious and gave more thanks than any Christian group. They believed that Everything created by God was sacred. Anyone that accumulated wealth without sharing was looked down upon. If one went hungry they all went hungry! They were happy and prospered until the white man brought Christianity to them.

[rosewood]

It isn't about buying heaven or giving to a specific church. It is about faith. God gives you 100% of what you get. All he ask is that you give back 10% and trust him with the results. I can tell you, my money was always tight, seemed my debt kept growing. I began to faithfully tithe, and now I always have enough money. You have to quit doing the math because it doesn't work when God is involved. As I once heard Joyce Meyer say, if you don't give God the 10% he ask for, Satan will take it. So when you don't give back, your car breaks down, or your refrigerator breaks or a water line breaks. Seems that since I started tithing, less things break, maybe it is my imagination but that is the way I see it. Not to mention, seems I have folks randomly give me money when I least expect it.

Regardless of what the Church does with what you give, God ask you to give, if they use the money inappropriately, God will deal with them. We have to answer for our actions not those of others.

Rosewood

[smokeywolf]

10% of the gross. Why is it 10% of the gross and not 10% of the net?

[lefty o]

10% of the gross. Why is it 10% of the gross and not 10% of the net?

pure and simple, its greed. God does not need your money, he is with you everywhere, it is the church that wants your money, and the more they get the better for them.

[Ickisrulz]

pure and simple, its greed. God does not need your money, he is with you everywhere, it is the church that wants your money, and the more they get the better for them.

Every endeavor that God takes for mankind involves the participation of human beings. While God can do anything on his own, he chooses to always involve people. The birth of Jesus and the spread of the Gospel are just two examples of cooperation between God and man for the salvation of the world.

The local church must have money to stay open. The missionary in far off lands must have money to live. Therefore, Christians must support the work of the Church with their contributions. This is the way God has ordained it.

I will once again point out that tithing is an Old Testament command that was not given to the Church. Christians are supposed to give when there are legitimate needs. I also have never read in the New Testament where Christians are supposed to give to God's work so they can be blessed materially. This is a nasty First-World teaching.

[Thundarstick]

I will once again point out that tithing is an Old Testament command that was not given to the Church. Christians are supposed to give when there are legitimate needs. I also have never read in the New Testament where Christians are supposed to give to God's work so they can be blessed materially. This is a nasty First-World teaching.

Amen again!

[6bg6ga]

Since this is probably directed to me I will answer.

I can only see the logical here. If I take away from my gross I don't have enough funds to pay all my bills. No amount of faith is going to bring back the money that is gone. If I really had it I wouldn't have a problem. I don't I cannot put it out without putting my family in a hardship. I won't loose the house to make that 10% and end up living under a bridge somewhere.

It would seem that your attitude mave have taken a change?

My church halfway thru the year brings in 1.5 Million. My church is blessed with a lot of people that can afford 10% or 25% or more. My church also needs to come to the realization that seemless video switchers that are two years old and function correctly don't need upgraded. My church should have sourced their audio system locally and they would have gotten their moneys worth. Sometimes having an excess of money = the inability to make good decisions. Maybe part of this wanting a full 10% is fueled by the lack of decent leadership.

I wish to apologize for my comments. Preacher Jim isn't trying to single me out. I just took things wrong.

[Char-Gar]

Every endeavor that God takes for mankind involves the participation of human beings. While God can do anything on his own, he chooses to always involve people. The birth of Jesus and the spread of the Gospel are just two examples of cooperation between God and man for the salvation of the world.

The local church must have money to stay open. The missionary in far off lands must have money to live. Therefore, Christians must support the work of the Church with their contributions. This is the way God has ordained it.

I will once again point out that tithing is an Old Testament command that was not given to the Church. Christians are supposed to give when there are legitimate needs. I also have never read in the New Testament where Christians are supposed to give to God's work so they can be blessed materially. This is a nasty First-World teaching.

I agree completely with your major premise that it takes the financial support of Christians to make Christian ministry happen.

Now here are my questions about "the Church".

1. Is there such a thing as a church that is faithless to it calling to ministry?
2. Is there a church that is irresponsible with the money it's members give?
3. Are we required to support religious organizations that are involved in 1 and 2 above?

The typical American "church" will spend over 85% of the funds it receives on salary and just keeping the building standing on the lot. How much of this can be justified as ministry and how much is just institutional survival.

At one point, I used to consult with local churches on what it means to be a valid scriptural "church". I divided the group into tables of eight and ask them to write down everything that came to their mind when I said the word "church". I gave them a few minutes and then went to the board and consolidate the lists from the various tables.

I then asked them to take the list on the board and strike off everything that was not found in scripture. It didn't take very long for somebody to say..."We just struck off the entire denomination". That was the point of course. We throw the word "church" around and assume that everything we associate with that term is actually part of being an authentic scriptural church.

Yes, it takes financial support to do as Christ wants us to do. That means we should be very careful about where we put that support, least to much of it funds non productive things. Dollars are precious things, that God can use for wonderful ministry, we should treat them with the respect they are due.

The institutional church, or at least what we associate with it, is a scripture aberration. It came into being centuries after the death of Jesus and has morphed into some very funky notions and concepts that have zero to do with our Christian scriptural mandates. These types of discussions, while uncomfortable for some, do serve a valid purpose in thinking about the vital issue of how a Christian uses their money and where it goes in the cause of Christ.

The blind knee jerk reaction that you should/must give 10% of your income either gross or net, to your local "church" is a simple, and often wrong answer to a very real and complex issue of faith. It is more than wrong to extort dollars from members through guilt and manipulation. I don't think that is a God thing.

Being a faithful Christian is a serious thing, that require much thought and prayers. We should not just follow the ruts in the road, other have placed there. They may have been going to the wrong place.

[Ickisrulz]

I agree completely with your major premise that it takes the financial support of Christians to make Christian ministry happen.

Now here are my questions about "the Church".

1. Is there such a thing as a church that is faithless to it calling to ministry?
2. Is there a church that is irresponsible with the money it's members give?
3. Are we required to support religious organizations that are involved in 1 and 2 above?

The typical American "church" will spend over 85% of the funds it receives on salary and just keeping the building standing on the lot. How much of this can be justified as ministry and how much is just institutional survival.

At one point, I used to consult with local churches on what it means to be a valid scriptural "church". I divided the group into tables of eight and ask them to write down everything that came to their mind when I said the word "church". I gave them a few minutes and then went to the board and consolidate the lists from the various tables.

I then asked them to take the list on the board and strike off everything that was not found in scripture. It didn't take very long for somebody to say..."We just struck off the entire denomination". That was the point of course. We throw the word "church" around and assume that everything we associate with that term is actually part of being an authentic scriptural church.

Yes, it takes financial support to do as Christ wants us to do. That means we should be very careful about where we put that support, least to much of it funds non productive things. Dollars are precious things, that God can use for wonderful ministry, we should treat them with the respect they are due.

The institutional church, or at least what we associate with it, is a scripture aberration. It came into being centuries after the death of Jesus and has morphed into some very funky notions and concepts that have zero to do with our Christian scriptural mandates. These types of discussions, while uncomfortable for some, do serve a valid purpose in thinking about the vital issue of how a Christian uses their money and where it goes in the cause of Christ.

The blind knee jerk reaction that you should/must give 10% of your income either gross or net, to your local "church" is a simple, and often wrong answer to a very real and complex issue of faith. It is more than wrong to extort dollars from members through guilt and manipulation. I don't think that is a God thing.

Being a faithful Christian is a serious thing, that require much thought and prayers. We should not just follow the ruts in the road, other have placed there. They may have been going to the wrong place.

Jesus did say that his people weren't very good with money (Luke 16:8,9)

[fatelk]

All I can say about the post regarding Native American religion is that it’s a rather idealistic view of Native American culture and beliefs. Having a little of that ethnic background myself, and a respect for that culture, I can say is it’s not all roses like you think, and Christianity is not all bad like you think. There’s a world of variation in each. The Indians had their problems too; it’s human nature.

Back to tithing, or at least a similar topic; I’ve often wondered about how church should be. We’ve always belonged to smaller non-denominational community churches, and it’s always all about various activities. There’s the youth group, the women’s ministry, men’s ministry, numerous programs and groups and ministries. They’re all good things I think, but everyone is always so busy, busy running. The only way to ever get to know anyone is if you’re running the same direction, involved in the same things. I’m just not a super involved type of person. Nobody ever gets together and gets to know their neighbor anymore because if they’re not running with church activities they’re running with their kids’ school activities. Go, go, go all the time. It’s exhausting to even think about it.

Sometimes I wonder if all the running is really necessary, as well as the rock-concert stages, nice big buildings, fancy electronics and sound systems, etc..

I was told once by a pastor that all these things are necessary because that’s what people expect and want nowadays. Churches that don’t go down that road die of old age because the younger people don’t come. Maybe he was right. I don’t know.

[Char-Gar]

Back to tithing, or at least a similar topic; I’ve often wondered .
I was told once by a pastor that all these things are necessary because that’s what people expect and want nowadays. Churches that don’t go down that road die of old age because the younger people don’t come. Maybe he was right. I don’t know.

Right, give them activity and entertainment to keep their butts in the pews and dollars in the collection plates. They should probably put a red light out front as well.

[Preacher Jim]

Man I hear a lot of legalism in the 10% also a lot of excuses that you will give account of.
You all are missing the point 10 net or 10 gross or 5%. It is about faithfully giving first yourself to the Lord the honoring him with supporting His work. Sounds like some of you go to things that call themselves churches. You find a church serving Jesus, teaching the bible. Doing evangelism, worshipping Jesus, caring for the needy, fellowshipping and supporting missions and you will gladly support it cause it has all six pillars of a solid church.
We are the family of God joint heirs with Jesus in the kingdom of Heaven

[skeettx]

Yes, I tithe, it ALL belongs to God
Rule #1, you can NOT out give God.

Malachi 3:10
10"Bring the whole tithe into the storehouse, so that there may be food in My house, and test Me now in this," says the LORD of hosts, "if I will not open for you the windows of heaven and pour out for you a blessing until it overflows.

Remember Christ did not come to do away with the law, but to fulfill it. (Matt 5:17-19)

I am NOT preaching but saying that I have tried it and it is true,

Mike

[Preacher Jim]

Sheet well spoken you caught it

[Ickisrulz]

Yes, I tithe, it ALL belongs to God
Rule #1, you can NOT out give God.

Malachi 3:10
10"Bring the whole tithe into the storehouse, so that there may be food in My house, and test Me now in this," says the LORD of hosts, "if I will not open for you the windows of heaven and pour out for you a blessing until it overflows.

Remember Christ did not come to do away with the law, but to fulfill it. (Matt 5:17-19)

I am NOT preaching but saying that I have tried it and it is true,

Mike

Peace and material blessings for following the Law (including tithes) were part of God's covenant with Israel. They do not apply to the Church. Being part of the Church is a whole other experience. It comes with trouble, hardship and persecution; even the "Son of Man had no place to lay his head." Of course we don't have too much trouble, hardship and persecution in the US. But Christians do in other places of the world and it isn't because they don't faithfully give money back to God.

[MT Gianni]

I am another who tithes. I ask to see my pastors tax receipts and I match the 10% he gives. Find out if yours gives what he expects you to.

[rosewood]

Peace and material blessings for following the Law (including tithes) were part of God's covenant with Israel. They do not apply to the Church. Being part of the Church is a whole other experience. It comes with trouble, hardship and persecution; even the "Son of Man had no place to lay his head." Of course we don't have too much trouble, hardship and persecution in the US. But Christians do in other places of the world and it isn't because they don't faithfully give money back to God.

I suppose the 10 commandments don't apply to us either then.

[Ickisrulz]

I suppose the 10 commandments don't apply to us either then.

All of the 10 Commandments except for "Remember the Sabbath to keep it holy" are repeated in the New Testament in some form.

Do you eat pork? Are all your male family members circumcised to be acceptable to God? The Old Covenant passed away and with it the Law.

[rosewood]

Yes I eat pork but so can jews now. See acts 10:10-15.

[Ickisrulz]

Yes I eat pork but so can jews now. See acts 10:10-15.

OK. There are hundreds of other commands under the Law that were not officially rescinded in the New Testament that Christians do not obey. As New Testament believers we understand that we do not please God by following the Law. Tithing was an Old Testament requirement under a contract God had with Israel. God does not have the same agreement with the Church.

Like I've written a couple times here, in the New Testament, Christians are encouraged to support the poor (who have no other options) and Church ministries. No set amount is prescribed and giving is to be done freely.

While God never changes, the Old Covenant and the New Covenant are quite different. Christians should understand this and not mix the two together. It's a new wine in an old wineskin thing.

[rl69]

A lot of good responses. I have nothing new to add. I do however fill compelled to add my two cents.

First tithes is the wrong word. Tithing is a old testement mandate it ended with the preaching Jeuses. Mathew 17:25 jeues asks Peter dose the king tax his family or strangers.

The first century church should be the standard all churches and congregations should go by.
We see in the book of acts the people gave all they had. all! And that no one with without. That is time money everything.

Is this what is required? No you are not requerd to give anything. Still in the book of acts we see Annanias and Sapphira acts 5:3 they sold a pece of property and kept some of the money for themselves. When confronted Peter asked them why have you done this? The money was yours to give away or to keep why have you lied about it? Then he fell dead

To answer your question,do you give 10%? yes I do. I don't say this to brag but to show how badly I fail if my standard is the first church. And not just with my money but my time and my faith.

I liken it to when I was a kid and I would make somthing for my mother. I would put my heart and soul into it and give it to her. It was the greatest gift she had ever received. When we give with all our hart it's the greatest gift he could ever git

[Traffer]

You cannot BUY your way to heaven with money! I gave up going to church, instead I study the religions of the American Indians. Some would jump up and down on me for that but the Native Americans were more religious and gave more thanks than any Christian group. They believed that Everything created by God was sacred. Anyone that accumulated wealth without sharing was looked down upon. If one went hungry they all went hungry! They were happy and prospered until the white man brought Christianity to them.
I have heard that the beliefs of the native Americans were quite varied. Some believed as you state here but there were many different belief systems across the land. I believe that there is a single thread of truth. Many folks believe that "what ever works for you is good" I believe in gaining the actual truth and believing it. After practicing that for a while it makes a difference in ones entire perspective. This single thread or line of truth is not certainly not always able to be ascertained but seeking it is a very different procedure than just manufacturing some form of "possibility" that works for people. I believe that this is what is referred to in the Bible as the "flood of dissipation". When people make up their own truth. there is a dissipation of integrity in society. We have been witnessing that in our world now for a few decades at least.

[Thundarstick]

Why where the Christians in Acts gathered in one place and giving all they had?

I'll contend it was a unique situation in the history of Christianity. All the Christians in the world where there, in one place, convinced Jesus was returning any day now. These early Christians saw no reason to have possessions as Christ was going to take them NOW. Anninas sin wasn't that he didn't give enough, its that he wanted recognition for having given all, while keeping some back, then lying about it. Did God's word spread because everyone gave all they had and where in the same place? No it didn't! God's word spread through Christians being persecuted, yet taking their faith with them! If you follow through the scriptures you'll see many false beliefs from this time had to be corrected.

[6bg6ga]

I don't know the bible never studied it and being raised a catholic I wasn't exposed to very much of it so I cannot begin to know it line and verse. So, I am asking those in the know for scripture references in the old testament and the new. Some here say the old testament said to give 10%. Some say that doesn't apply. So, I am confused as to what applies or doesn't. Is it that we can find conflicting ideas about giving?

[Thundarstick]

I say this with all kindness!
Not knowing is what happens when you let someone else do your studying for you.

[6bg6ga]

I say this with all kindness!
Not knowing is what happens when you let someone else do your studying for you.

I'm sorry but your comment makes no sense to me. Like I mentioned I grew up going to the catholic church until the age of 16. My memories of the catholic church is that it didn't dwell on the bible. I'm not asking someone to do my studying for me but rather possibly point me to scripture that I can read and possibly make my own mind up.

[Thundarstick]

As you can see already there are several different beliefs. I'm saying your in the predicament your in because of lack of scriptural knowledge to decide for yourself.

[JBinMN]

https://echurch.com/20-bible-verses-about-tithing/

https://www.biblestudytools.com/topical-verses/tithing-in-the-bible/

http://www.tithing.com/blog/bible-verses-about-tithing/

[claude]

I'm not asking someone to do my studying for me but rather possibly point me to scripture that I can read and possibly make my own mind up.


I'm saying your in the predicament your in because of lack of scriptural knowledge to decide for yourself.

Well, now we have you on the same page, that is refreshing.

FWIW @ 6bg6ga, take the tools JBinMN has offered and begin your study, and by and large disregard most of the conflicting information deposited here by well meaning but ignorant people, and do as you suggest in your post, and make up your own mind from the scripture references.

If you are truly seeking, the answer will become apparent from the scripture, believe God, not men.

[lefty o]

Well, now we have you on the same page, that is refreshing.

FWIW @ 6bg6ga, take the tools JBinMN has offered and begin your study, and by and large disregard most of the conflicting information deposited here by well meaning but ignorant people, and do as you suggest in your post, and make up your own mind from the scripture references.

If you are truly seeking, the answer will become apparent from the scripture, believe God, not men.

the ignorant comments arent needed, as not all our faiths and beliefs are identical!

[rosewood]

Regardless of how the Bible is "interpreted". I give a minimum of 10% because I believe that is what God is asking me to do. I give by faith not obligation. If he is asking you to give a different amount, then that is between you and him. However, making excuses for not giving back to God is not the right road to go down.

Rosewood

[jumbeaux]

My wife and I have been fortunate enough to support the Mission our Church for many years. We give what we can monthly. We learned many years ago to set aside money for the Church first and have never missed the funds. We learned this from a very dear Christian Lady almost 40 years ago. We both try to spend 2.4 hours a day in Prayer, study and service...that is more difficult than the monetary tithe. My advice sir is to give what you are comfortable giving and rest assured that your acceptance of the Prevenient Grace of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ will sustain you.

rick

[Ickisrulz]

Regardless of how the Bible is "interpreted". I give a minimum of 10% because I believe that is what God is asking me to do. I give by faith not obligation. If he is asking you to give a different amount, then that is between you and him. However, making excuses for not giving back to God is not the right road to go down.

Rosewood

You give by faith and not obligation. The people who gave tithes under the Old Covenant were obligated. So therefore you have acknowledged you are not tithing as prescribed by the Old Testament. You are following what you feel God has led you to do. I think that is pretty close to what I have said.

[Char-Gar]

I have always tried to follow John Wesley's counsel on the "Proper Us of Money". It is rather long, but I will hit the high points;

First of all it the love of money that is the root of evil, it is not money itself. Money is a gift of God that can do wonderful things for others in the hands of God's people. Therefore it behooves a Christian to:

1. GAIN all you can. However there are proper and moral ways by which Christians can gain money and improper and immoral ways also. In gaining money, make certain we do not hurt others in either their body, spirit or ability to make a living. He gives illustrations of all of these things not to do.

2. After you have GAINED all you can, then SAVE all you can and do not waste any of this precious gift of God on the A) the lust of the eye, B) the lust of the flesh or C) the pride of life. In this Wesley followed the teachings of John.

3. After you have SAVED all you can, then GIVE all you can. You should first provide for your family and yourself, so you will not be a burden on others. Then you should "go good to those who are the household of faith". Lastly if you have any left, you should "do good to all of mankind".

______________________________

I note, that Wesley talks about principals and priorities and not about legalism, that you must or should give a set amount. He makes no mention of tithing or even giving to a church, but when he says to good to those who are the household of faith, it is implicit that he is talking about the church. I do believe in supporting your church, but care should be taken that the money so given, is indeed doing good to those that are of the household of faith and not the perpetuation of a money sponge institution.

I belong to the "think and let think" school of Christian thought unless we are talking about "the marrow of the faith", such as the divinity of Christ, the resurrection of Christ and like items.

I do draw the line however, at folks who take the position, if you don't think as I think and do as I think you should, God is going to get you. I want to stay as far away from these modern day Pharisees as possible. The way of Christ is the way of love and grace and not the way of judgment and rules.

[Char-Gar]

Regardless of how the Bible is "interpreted". I give a minimum of 10% because I believe that is what God is asking me to do. I give by faith not obligation. If he is asking you to give a different amount, then that is between you and him. However, making excuses for not giving back to God is not the right road to go down.

Rosewood

What is the difference between an "excuse" and a "reason"? If you feel in your heart that what you give comes from God, is that an "excuse" or a "reason". Some have felt that others who see things different are making excuses.

I really want to know how you see the difference between a reason and an excuse. I was in total agreement with you until you got to the excuse item in your post.

As I understand the general tenor of this thread, it is about the validity of a mandatory tithe and not whether or not people should "give back to God". Those are not the same notions, as least in my mind they are not even related.

[jumbeaux]

I have always tried to follow John Wesley's counsel on the "Proper Us of Money". It is rather long, but I will hit the high points;

First of all it the love of money that is the root of evil, it is not money itself. Money is a gift of God that can do wonderful things for others in the hands of God's people. Therefore it behooves a Christian to:

1. GAIN all you can. However there are proper and moral ways by which Christians can gain money and improper and immoral ways also. In gaining money, make certain we do not hurt others in either their body, spirit or ability to make a living. He gives illustrations of all of these things not to do.

2. After you have GAINED all you can, then SAVE all you can and do not waste any of this precious gift of God on the A) the lust of the eye, B) the lust of the flesh or C) the pride of life. In this Wesley followed the teachings of John.

3. After you have SAVED all you can, then GIVE all you can. You should first provide for your family and yourself, so you will not be a burden on others. Then you should "go good to those who are the household of faith". Lastly if you have any left, you should "do good to all of mankind".

______________________________

I note, that Wesley talks about principals and priorities and not about legalism, that you must or should give a set amount. He makes no mention of tithing or even giving to a church, but when he says to good to those who are the household of faith, it is implicit that he is talking about the church. I do believe in supporting your church, but care should be taken that the money so given, is indeed doing good to those that are of the household of faith and not the perpetuation of a money sponge institution.

I belong to the "think and let think" school of Christian thought unless we are talking about "the marrow of the faith", such as the divinity of Christ, the resurrection of Christ and like items.

I do draw the line however, at folks who take the position, if you don't think as I think and do as I think you should, God is going to get you. I want to stay as far away from these modern day Pharisees as possible. The way of Christ is the way of love and grace and not the way of judgment and rules.

Reverend my wife and I have tried our best to follow John Wesley's "Proper use of Money" since the days of our Confirmation Classes. Our parents did their best to instill the heart of a Servant in us throughout our upbringing.

rick

[Char-Gar]

Reverend my wife and I have tried our best to follow John Wesley's "Proper use of Money" since the days of our Confirmation Classes. Our parents did their best to instill the heart of a Servant in us throughout our upbringing.

rick

You folks were blessed with such parents. The Proper Use of Money, really is more difficult than writing a check for a certain percentage and being done with it. It requires prayer and thought about each dollar gained, each dollar spent and each dollar given.

[Char-Gar]

It isn't about buying heaven or giving to a specific church. It is about faith. God gives you 100% of what you get. All he ask is that you give back 10% .......
Regardless of what the Church does with what you give, God ask you to give, if they use the money inappropriately, God will deal with them. We have to answer for our actions not those of others.

Rosewood

Herein lies the point of difference between you and many others here. They, as well as I, don't believe that God requires 10% from Christians. That is ancient Jewish legalism that does not carry forward to the Christian era.

I do believe that we are to give and I set out my thinking in my "Proper Use of Money" post.

I do believe that God will bless our faith and he will take care of us in many ways. I have seen it in my life, and the life of others. However God's response to our faith is in no way connected to what percentage of our income we give to a local church. That is an artificial connection drawn by folks who have a vested interest in keep the church's bills paid.

I will disagree, that we just write the check and if the church misuses that money, well that is on them. No, it is on you, for God has given you that money to use wisely and not throw it away, when it could do so much good otherwise. You can't pass the buck to the "church" on that one. That would be one of the excuses you talk about.

[fatelk]

Deleted. Sorry, sometimes I get caught up and ramble on, then after a while realize that I posted more than I want to, and probably came off as whiny and rambling.

[Preacher Jim]

As you all know I post little.
A question for the self centered who refuse to go to church or support the church.
Jesus bride is the church. Jesus had the disciples establish churches everywhere they reached folks for Christ. Man has missed up some churches but when Jesus returns he will call forth the believers to Him. By faith you are saved not of works less any should boast.
Where will you spend eternity? The choice is yours and God gave you free will.

[Char-Gar]

As you all know I post little.
A question for the self centered who refuse to go to church or support the church.
Jesus bride is the church. Jesus had the disciples establish churches everywhere they reached folks for Christ. Man has missed up some churches but when Jesus returns he will call forth the believers to Him. By faith you are saved not of works less any should boast.
Where will you spend eternity? The choice is yours and God gave you free will.

Have you entertained the remote possibility that you might be wrong and those whom you call self centered might be faithful Christians who just don't see things your way? Do you have the corner on truth and speak for God in all matters?

[Preacher Jim]

Char I pray i am. Free will allows all to make the commitment by faith to what they do. You and I mostly agree in principle. Those were good posts by the way.

[tinhorn97062]

I currently am not attending a church. And I’ve been called worse than “self centered”. While others are working hard at attending a church, I can be found working hard at BEING the church. Other peoples’ Mileage may vary.

[gandydancer]

I started out to be raised a Catholic I stopped studying the catechism after getting my 3rd beating & a split ear from the priest. Went home with a bloodied ear. I never had to go back. I found out many years later my mom went back to see the priest and gave him a bloodie nose, my mom died when I was eleven years old 66 years ago. And I have never been back inside a church of any kind sense nor will I ever be again. I have faith just not the canned kind.

[6bg6ga]

I don't feel any post here is less than relevant or undeserving of thought. It is my wish however that this thread might continue and people be able to comment and learn in a peaceful setting. No need to sling mud or be little anyone. We all have our own thoughts and comments on the subject I posted and I for one would really appreciate being able to hear from anyone wishing to comment.


.

[dverna]

I don't feel any post here is less than relevant or undeserving of thought. It is my wish however that this thread might continue and people be able to comment and learn in a peaceful setting. No need to sling mud or be little anyone. We all have our own thoughts and comments on the subject I posted and I for one would really appreciate being able to hear from anyone wishing to comment.


.

JBinMN gave us some good reading and study material in his post where this concept is discussed in the Bible....the word of God....albeit coming from mortal men who recorded it and lesser men who after centuries translated it. But it is what we have.

I have more faith in that, than what opinions others may have.

In the end, the individual must make a decision. He has God to look to for direction.

In my case, I see some abuse of tithing by some churches/ministers. But that is because their congregations are fearful of ridicule or worse. Helping those less fortunate and spreading the word of God are what I believe God expects us to do.

[6bg6ga]

JBinMN gave us some good reading and study material in his post where this concept is discussed in the Bible....the word of God....albeit coming from mortal men who recorded it and lesser men who after centuries translated it. But it is what we have.

I have more faith in that, than what opinions others may have.

In the end, the individual must make a decision. He has God to look to for direction.

In my case, I see some abuse of tithing by some churches/ministers. But that is because their congregations are fearful of ridicule or worse. Helping those less fortunate and spreading the word of God are what I believe God expects us to do.

This is exactly why I started the thread in the first place. I wanted to learn and I wanted opinions from others. Based on my church's attitude on tithing and their lack of consideration on members giving of themselves I question their attitudes and their motives. So far it looks like most of the information on tithing is coming from the OLD TESTAMENT?

With respect to the translation of the bible and the recording of the bible I was taught that it was recorded exactly as meant due to divine intervention. Faith has us believing that everything is correct. Yet, why are there books that aren't in the bible or allowed in the bible? Is it that we are capable of judging over God what he wants in his book or does it just suit our needs better?

With respect to the Old Testament.... I thought it was superseded by the New Testament?

[Preacher Jim]

Free will allows all to make the commitment by faith to what they do. I see me in many of these posts stages I went through. I was the guy who never went back to church after bad experience. The one who could not stand organized religion and still can't.
I am not religious but am a Christian and yes I pastor a small church that focus on serving Christ and reaching folks for the kingdom not to grow numbers but make disciples.
My use of the word self-centered was to provoke thought as to motives of all our positions, are we Christ centered or church centered, or self centered. I pray all in this thread can honestly say Christ centered where ever you are in your positions.

[Wayne Smith]

On the issue of an excuse vs reason. Reason is rooted in fact and reality. Excuses are rooted in desire. They are both part of my perception and understanding.

[Electric88]

With respect to the Old Testament.... I thought it was superseded by the New Testament?

It could be thought of that way. The New Testament supersedes the Old Testament primarily concerning how one would relate to and/or serve God. In the Old Testament, this was achieved through the law. In the New Testament, it describes how Jesus came and died for us, and through that the law was fulfilled entirely. Today, one's relationship with God is one of faith in Him and grace for our sins as opposed to attempting to fulfill every tenet of the law and be subject to its consequences.

However, the Old Testament is still relevant from the standpoint that many things shared are analogous to today's Christians. One example is the current subject, the tithe. In Genesis 14:18-20 it describes how Abraham (then Abram) gave a tenth to the King of Salem and "a priest of the Most High God" named Melchizedek. In the New Testament, Hebrews 5:6 it describes God saying to his Son (Jesus) that he was "a priest forever in the order of Melchizedek". This is one of the ways that people have associated the tithe (10%) with relevance in the New Testament. But many here are also correct in saying that giving is something that will come from the heart from a desire to please and serve the Lord.

I'm by no means an expert on the subject, but this is something my wife and I do our best to live by.

[dverna]

6bg6ga,

You are wise to question your church and leaders. When something does not seem right, only a fool would not question it.

Here, you have received a number of opinions. Again, I refer you to the post JBinMN shared with us. In only a few hours of reading and thinking you will make a lot progress. You will form and solidify your own opinions based on the Word. If your minister/preacher is any good he will help you with any questions you have after you do your homework. If he blows you off, well....it says a lot.

Good luck.

[Char-Gar]

The Old Testament is the record of God's dealing with the Jews. If that was all that was needed, there would have never been a New Testament. The hard fact is that the law which controlled the life of the Jews didn't work, it never does. It took God coming in the person of Jesus to set things right, through faith and grace.

The notion that the OT has the same weight and value as the NT is an erroneous concept, if folks just stop and think about it a while. Yet, many Christian groups try and drag us backward into OT law. If it didn't work pre-Jesus, why do they think it will work now.

I will admit that following rules and laws, is easier than thinking, studying and praying, so maybe folks like the easy way out.

[6bg6ga]

If the Old Testament dealt with the Jews then what bearing does it have on us in todays world? If the New Testament came into play to be a better and more complete book for us to follow then is everything in the old testament still binding? To me its like a revision B that takes priority over revision A. I don't see the need to sacrifice ones first born male child in todays time nor 10% of ones wheat crop nor do I really see the value of providing 10% of ones wages for example if one has provided services instead.

[6bg6ga]

I will apologize in advance but being a repair technician its my nature to question everything. Some people blindly follow without a second thought and I was taught to look, to investigate, and to question. I do realize that my questioning will irritate some who are very devout and never question anything. I'll be blunt here....I do not accept the bible line and verse because as I see it there are so many things that can be viewed differently.

The bible mentions Noahs ark that 2) of every species was put aboard. Some blindly accept this as being true. Now, take the dimensions of Noah's ark and you will easily be able to come to the conclusion that two of every species wouldn't even begin to fit on it given is size. So, do you blindly accept the Ark containing 2) of every species? What about plant life? Things don't add up period. If the world was completely flooded for 40 days then plant life, trees, vines, all animal life and so forth would be gone. Its simple logic. Its a nice story but it unfortunately isn't true when you figure internal volume of the ark. Which is it that God wants? Blind faith or people to be able to reason things out and use logic.

Maybe the idea of tithing is indeed a story an idea whose purpose is to make people think? Maybe it was put into terms the people of that time were capable of understanding. Give to God 10%. Maybe God doesn't care if the 10% is in good works in his name, being on a security team at your church, or in my case repairing audio and video equipment. Maybe God just wants you to get off you *** and do something that is positive.

Maybe its easier just to do as it is written than it is to question what has been written and why. I for many years when working in a factory would not blindly follow the ways things were done in the past. I sought better and more efficient ways of doing things. When I see something that doesn't quite add up I will question it. The same goes for my church...I see so much waste just because there is plenty of money in the pot.

I'm sure there is some kind of God or almighty deity. I sincerely doubt that he is going to sit at heavins gate with a calculator and say this guy is ok and this guy is 1% short in his tithe. Maybe the guy that gave his 10% didn't live a good life and lusted after his neighbors wife or daughter. I think that God might just take into consideration that you did what you could and call it a day.

[rosewood]

The animals could have been babies, not adult, take up less space. Some may have well been eggs. As for plants, there are these things called seeds, they could easily be dormant and sprout once the sun hits them. They did not have to be on the ark, the bible never mentioned plants anyway. There may have even been eggs that were not on the ark that hatched after the waters receded. I am an engineer by the way and i too question everything.

Also from certain animals like dogs, all canines have the same DNA, they are just different breeds, all are rooted from the wolf. There was probably a pair of wolves and that is where all dogs came from.

[6bg6ga]

Then sir you would easily be able to do the math and see that baby animals would also not fit when you consider all the species. So, are you saying that Noah harvested DNA preserved it and somehow manipulated it to arrive at different breeds of canines for example? Questionable that plants were available in seed form given the somewhat limited time Noah had to build the Ark.

I'm sorry but the tale is like a childs bedtime story. Sounds good until you start breaking it down into logical form.

[dverna]

The Old Testament is the record of God's dealing with the Jews. If that was all that was needed, there would have never been a New Testament. The hard fact is that the law which controlled the life of the Jews didn't work, it never does. It took God coming in the person of Jesus to set things right, through faith and grace.

The notion that the OT has the same weight and value as the NT is an erroneous concept, if folks just stop and think about it a while. Yet, many Christian groups try and drag us backward into OT law. If it didn't work pre-Jesus, why do they think it will work now.

I will admit that following rules and laws, is easier than thinking, studying and praying, so maybe folks like the easy way out.

Char-Gar,

There are many who believe every verse, sentence and word in the Bible is 100% absolute and true. I am not one of them, and that has been one hurdle in my journey to Christ. I have been counseled to not question so much and to have faith....but I am not there yet and may never be.

Yet I believe in Jesus and in God. But I do not believe God is perfect. He makes mistakes. Your opinion of why we have a New Testament makes sense. God realized that following His Word in the OT was not working and made a correction. It cost Him His Son.

And a covenant written to the Jews would require all of us to become Jews. As Christians we believe in Christ and in so doing we know that Jesus stands there to guide us to God through grace and faith.

I am sorry I have contributed to thread drift but I thank all who post and make me think.

[Virginia John]

What you give is between you and God, his directions are clear and are found in more than one place. Don't forget the poor, sick, homeless, etc.

[6bg6ga]

Char-Gar,

There are many who believe every verse, sentence and word in the Bible is 100% absolute and true. I am not one of them, and that has been one hurdle in my journey to Christ. I have been counseled to not question so much and to have faith....but I am not there yet and may never be.

Yet I believe in Jesus and in God. But I do not believe God is perfect. He makes mistakes. Your opinion of why we have a New Testament makes sense. God realized that following His Word in the OT was not working and made a correction. It cost Him His Son.

And a covenant written to the Jews would require all of us to become Jews. As Christians we believe in Christ and in so doing we know that Jesus stands there to guide us to God through grace and faith.

I am sorry I have contributed to thread drift but I thank all who post and make me think.

I am grateful for all comments that people have made. I personally do not see it as a drift. People need to reason things out and be able to think on their own and not accept blind canned information. I for one do not think God expects us to accept everything hook line and sinker but rather read and question things.

When you look at the concept of the here it is in book form you will learn it obey it and not go over the line absolutely doesn't make any sense. God has invested a lot of time and thought in the human race and the world we live in. Maybe just maybe he expects us to read the word and be able to question it and to arrive at a possible meaning or possible meanings. Maybe the idea of tithing in todays world is different than it was 2000 years ago.

[popper]

I'm glad that someone brought up Ananias and his wife Sapphira. We do know from Scripture the events, but a question arises. Did they ever have salvation or was it 'lost' due to their actions? Any answer to that question is pure SPECULATION. To base any DOCTRINE on SPECULATION is FOOLISHNESS.
I disagree with Don about God making mistakes, even thought scripture 'tends' to indicate that. HE is sad about the results we provide to his wisdom. HE desires for us to not err.
Statements by many claiming God looks like 'this or that' are foolish. No one living/lived on this earth has seen God. Scripture states Adam HEARD GOD but nowhere does it say he SAW GOD. Same with Cain ( & Able?).

[Char-Gar]

Char-Gar,

There are many who believe every verse, sentence and word in the Bible is 100% absolute and true. I am not one of them, and that has been one hurdle in my journey to Christ. I have been counseled to not question so much and to have faith....but I am not there yet and may never be.

Yet I believe in Jesus and in God. But I do not believe God is perfect. He makes mistakes. Your opinion of why we have a New Testament makes sense. God realized that following His Word in the OT was not working and made a correction. It cost Him His Son.

And a covenant written to the Jews would require all of us to become Jews. As Christians we believe in Christ and in so doing we know that Jesus stands there to guide us to God through grace and faith.

I am sorry I have contributed to thread drift but I thank all who post and make me think.

Allow me to respond to your question and your question behind your question.

I do not believe that God makes mistakes. I do believe that people often make mistakes in their thinking about God. If all we know of God, is what people tell us about God, there will be ample mistakes, contradiction and conflicts.

There is a type of human that wants simple answers to complex questions and wants them handed to them on a sliver platter. It is not difficult to know what the Bible says, but often quite difficult to understand what the Bible means. To understand what the Bible means, a person must understand who wrote, why they wrote it, when it was written and to whom it was written.

Remove that, and you end up with a flat book concept of the Bible, where God verbally dictated every word and every word is given the same weight and validity as every other word. You will then have a God who is ambiguous, confused, conflicted, contradicted and whose mistakes are obvious.

There are plenty of church leader types who will gladly hand the individual a list of rules and regulations with the only instructions being "obey!". They do not want questions, thinking and certainly don't want to have their authority questioned.

I may not be the sharpest knife in the drawer, but I am a reasonable smart guy and I have spent my adult life studying scripture, trying to understand it and apply that understanding to my life. I have also shared with many people that understanding, through a teaching ministry.

Among other things, my study and understanding has show to me a God that is indeed perfect, but a creation that is flawed to the core, including their understanding of God.

[Char-Gar]

Note to all:

There is much confusion about what the Bible means, with many people offering up different opinions, point folks to this or that teacher or this or that guide. There are so many different and contradictory approaches to Bible study, that the person begins to feel like a lab rat in a maze trying to find the way out.

There is an approach to Bible study that is called "Inductive Bible Study", who allows people to study the Bible for themselves and come to an understanding without being whipsawed back and forth by various others persons and their points of views.

Inductive Bible starts with the Book was a whole, the breaking Book down into it's major parts. The major parts are then broken down to their sub parts and the sub parts father broken down. There are certain questions that are asked of each part or sub part that helps to discover the context and meaning.

This involves ALLOT of work, but as you do it, it becomes easier. It does free the Bible student from the opinions of the various gurus. Google up "Inductive Bible Study" and you will find ample resources to help you on your way to Bible understanding. Avoid denominational material and they will have a pre-conceived outcome.

Nothing of value, comes without work and there is nothing more valuable that a Christian life based on Bible values.

[Ickisrulz]

Allow me to respond to your question and your question behind your question.

I do not believe that God makes mistakes. I do believe that people often make mistakes in their thinking about God. If all we know of God, is what people tell us about God, there will be ample mistakes, contradiction and conflicts.

There is a type of human that wants simple answers to complex questions and wants them handed to them on a sliver platter. It is not difficult to know what the Bible says, but often quite difficult to understand what the Bible means. To understand what the Bible means, a person must understand who wrote, why they wrote it, when it was written and to whom it was written.

Remove that, and you end up with a flat book concept of the Bible, where God verbally dictated every word and every word is given the same weight and validity as every other word. You will then have a God who is ambiguous, confused, conflicted, contradicted and whose mistakes are obvious.

There are plenty of church leader types who will gladly hand the individual a list of rules and regulations with the only instructions being "obey!". They do not want questions, thinking and certainly don't want to have their authority questioned.

I may not be the sharpest knife in the drawer, but I am a reasonable smart guy and I have spent my adult life studying scripture, trying to understand it and apply that understanding to my life. I have also shared with many people that understanding, through a teaching ministry.

Among other things, my study and understanding has show to me a God that is indeed perfect, but a creation that is flawed to the core, including their understanding of God.

There is another understanding about the development of the Bible that falls between the idea that biblical authors were reporters misunderstanding God and the idea that God dictated Scripture word-for-word to the authors.

This idea is that God was guiding and directing the writer behind the scenes using all He had at His disposal to write what He wished (I'm sure you know this). This understanding also requires the reader to determine who the writer was, why the Scripture was written and who it was written for. Modern day readers must also determine how it applies, if at all, to them. This understanding makes the claim that 100% of the Bible is inspired, but came about through a process. We always see God working through processes.

I just cannot wrap my mind around approaching the Bible with the view it contains erroneous reports concerning God. If it's filled with errors, how can we be sure of anything? You can always say, "Well, that part just isn't correct."

[Char-Gar]

There is another understanding about the development of the Bible that falls between the idea that biblical authors were reporters misunderstanding God and the idea that God dictated Scripture word-for-word to the authors.

This idea is that God was guiding and directing the writer behind the scenes using all He had at His disposal to write what He wished (I'm sure you know this). This understanding also requires the reader to determine who the writer was, why the Scripture was written and who it was written for. Modern day readers must also determine how it applies, if at all, to them. This understanding makes the claim that 100% of the Bible is inspired, but came about through a process. We always see God working through processes.

I just cannot wrap my mind around approaching the Bible with the view it contains erroneous reports concerning God. If it's filled with errors, how can we be sure of anything? You can always say, "Well, that part just isn't correct."

I would basically agree with you, that God inspired the full person. But that full person included some very primitive understandings.

In 2 Kings 2:23 Elisha was going into Bethel and some young boys were mocking him because he was bald. Elisha cursed them in God's name and two she bears came down and tore up 42 of them.

Did God use those bears to kill 42 children? It that the nature of God we see in Jesus? It that understanding consistent or inconsistent with a loving, forgiving and gracious God we see in Jesus, who prayed for the forgiveness of those who were torturing him to death?

Perhaps it is just the way ancient Jews express things. Perhaps it an ancient form of 1st. Cause logic whereby God is attributed with things He did not do? It is error or just an event that needs understanding in some way other than literal?

I don't choose to call such things errors. I choose to call them primitive thinking that misrepresents the nature and character of God. Whatever you want to call it, I don't worship a God that kills children who make fun of a ball headed man.

I am a Christian who walks hand in hand with Jesus through this life to the grave and beyond to life eternal with Him. I do not worship a book, I worship a crucified and risen Savior. There are far more things I don't understand about God, then I do understand, but I do know God does not kill 42 bad mannered children. This is just one of scores of examples I can give, but if this one isn't convincing, then dozens more will not be convincing either.

[6bg6ga]

Well, it would seem like we have people here that feel that the bible needs to be interpreted as written and others like myself that say hey lets take a good look at it because it could possibly hold other meanings. I for one have been told that I had to read the bible and accept the way it was written as fact.

I'll be blunt here....I have a problem with a God that would want someone to offer up his first born as a sacrifice or to kill 42 children. It would seem that we have conflicting information. Didn't God give us the 10 commandments? And didn't one say "Thou shalt not kill?"

I don't think the bible is perfect and I'm not saying that to justify my line of thinking. The Bible may have been inspired by God but it was still written by man and thus the ability to have it be twisted or turned. Getting back to the tithing and 10%... I think in todays world God may not expect one to simply give 10% and call it a day. Sure, its easy for one to write out a check for 10% and walk away and it a lot harder to give of ones self thru other types of works. We are also supposed to help the less fortunate but how many say they have done enough with that 10% check?

[6bg6ga]

Note to all:

There is much confusion about what the Bible means, with many people offering up different opinions, point folks to this or that teacher or this or that guide. There are so many different and contradictory approaches to Bible study, that the person begins to feel like a lab rat in a maze trying to find the way out.

There is an approach to Bible study that is called "Inductive Bible Study", who allows people to study the Bible for themselves and come to an understanding without being whipsawed back and forth by various others persons and their points of views.

Inductive Bible starts with the Book was a whole, the breaking Book down into it's major parts. The major parts are then broken down to their sub parts and the sub parts father broken down. There are certain questions that are asked of each part or sub part that helps to discover the context and meaning.

This involves ALLOT of work, but as you do it, it becomes easier. It does free the Bible student from the opinions of the various gurus. Google up "Inductive Bible Study" and you will find ample resources to help you on your way to Bible understanding. Avoid denominational material and they will have a pre-conceived outcome.

Nothing of value, comes without work and there is nothing more valuable that a Christian life based on Bible values.

Thank you for a logical path to understanding the bible. I for one will give it a try. I was looking for an unbiased approach to understanding.

[WRideout]

I was raised Baptist, became Methodist, and am now Lutheran. I also attended a Presbyterian seminary, which taught Reform theology. In Reform theology the Bible can be read, but not truly understood, without the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. That works for me. Also, I agree with the inductive approach, looking for the bigger picture. In that mode, even the doom and gloom books of the Old Testament can convey a sense of hope. I remember reading Jeremiah, and finding that there were indeed words of hope in there, along with the descriptions of impending destruction.

Wayne

[BOSCHLOPER]

My wife and I were individually giving 10% before we started dating, and we have continued. That's 10% before taxes (do you want God to bless you before or after taxes?). With the other things to missionaries in Haiti, the local campus ministry & etc. it is well over 10%.

Sometimes I realize that God is blessing us, but most of the time I am too dumb to catch on.

[Char-Gar]

My wife and I were individually giving 10% before we started dating, and we have continued. That's 10% before taxes (do you want God to bless you before or after taxes?). With the other things to missionaries in Haiti, the local campus ministry & etc. it is well over 10%.

Sometimes I realize that God is blessing us, but most of the time I am too dumb to catch on.

Don't believe God's blessing are for sale. His sun shines on the just and the unjust as well as his rain. God blesses us because it is his loving nature to do so, not because we prime the pump with giving.

[Thundarstick]

Absolutely!
The Bible has many examples of evil men profiting and appear to be blessed of God, who are doing and living an evil life!

[6bg6ga]

Just look at some of your wealthy TV preachers in todays world. See where some if not all of your 10% is going?

[Char-Gar]

Absolutely!
The Bible has many examples of evil men profiting and appear to be blessed of God, who are doing and living an evil life!

I learned early on that success does not equal being blessed by God. Hitler, Stalin and many others were very evil, but successful at what they did. Hitler did a pretty good job of exterminating the European Jews, and that was not due to a blessing from God.

There is a current pop theology going around, whereby the preachers tell folks that having more and more material things is the product of their faith and blessings of God. The Gospel of Greed is afoot in this country and attracting many followers. The prophets of this false gospel amass great wealth and live large as an example to their followers. It is a cancer on the Christian faith and the most dangerous heresy in history, for it appeals to the most base instincts of human nature.

[fatelk]

Many years ago my wife attended a Women's Bible study where the leader claimed that illness was a sign of sin. She said that chronic illness especially was a clear sign that you had some deep-seated sin in your life that you need to confess and defeat before you could heal. They were young and well meaning, but scripturally ignorant.

My wife told them they were wrong, quoting chapter and verse to prove it. She's dealt with chronic pain and illness to some degree most of her life. It's amazing what is preached in the name of Christ that is clearly and seriously false.

[Walkingwolf]

I give 10% or more to the Church of my Firearm Dreams.

[Char-Gar]

Many years ago my wife attended a Women's Bible study where the leader claimed that illness was a sign of sin. She said that chronic illness especially was a clear sign that you had some deep-seated sin in your life that you need to confess and defeat before you could heal. They were young and well meaning, but scripturally ignorant.

My wife told them they were wrong, quoting chapter and verse to prove it. She's dealt with chronic pain and illness to some degree most of her life. It's amazing what is preached in the name of Christ that is clearly and seriously false.

Everybody in my family turns grey headed early. I once had a woman tell me my grey hair was a result of unconfessed sin. I laughed and through that level of ignorance was funny. About six months later she told a man in my church, who had just lost his wife to cancer, that she died because of lack of faith in Jesus. It tore the man up and I didn't laugh that one off, but told that woman, who worked nearby to get out of my church and never come back.

[fatelk]

About six months later she told a man in my church, who had just lost his wife to cancer, that she died because of lack of faith in Jesus.

Oh wow, that is terrible. How could someone, especially someone who calls them self a Christian, be so callous and uncaring? That is really sad. Good for you to ask her to leave.

[6bg6ga]

My church every year goes thru a tithing section where I believe there are four sundays in which tithing is dwelled on. Anyway, my paster told the congregation that the more you give the more you will be blessed. Honesty here.....that sounds more like a used car salesman describing how you would be better off spending more to buy the delux model over the standard model. So, you spend more and you will be blessed more? This seems to be the selling point at my church in my opinion. Lets get real here.... why not just figure out what the budget is and how much is in the church's bank account? Big problem there..... there is a lot of money in that old account and people would back off the giving and thus the bottom line would go down. So guilt is employed in order to get that 10% because it is written in the bible and therefore is is LAW!

Pretty easy back then to access a 10% tax and obtain it. Why? Simple, what else did people have? They probably produced more than what they needed thus no problem getting that 10%. Nowdays people are strapped getting a home paying insurance on it a car with insurance kids and the associated problems cell phones and maintenance on the kids. Take that 10% off the top now and then do the math. Not enough left in most cases to pay the bills or be timely doing so.

Giving and receiving.... I've done the math. Giving 5% still means I'm 5% short on money to pay my bills. Giving in my opinion doesn't mean I will get a 25% windfall because I gave. Even heard the devil tells you not to give.

Probably get into trouble for saying this but.... I can't say that I really believe in the devil. I can say that I believe in man's ability to be cruel, to be mean and disrespectful and hateful. However, logic would dictate that there is an opposite and for good that would be evil, light, dark and so forth. I think man instead of fessing up has an out and that out is called the devil. Heck I even heard a Baptist preacher blame the devil for the sound system not working. Worked on several of those sound systems where the devil made them quit. One was a Toa A912MKII that is notorious for having a protection circuit problem. This one had hit that magic age where I replaced the (6) capacitors in that circuit and it came back to life. Factory flaw one cap was under rated for voltage. The devil still did it by the way. Got to love those insurance claims. Most church's will not pass up an opportunity for an insurance claim when in fact they knew the problem was one of age and not a lightning hit. Double standard here? You as a member of the church must live a good life but that paster can raise hell in order to get a new mixer board because his is 10 years old and yes lightning did strike in his town during that storm the other night and yes he has no other damage in his church. My favorite here... the story of a catholic church with the paster wanting a new mixer a Shure SCM810. (Had been replaced by the way 2 months earlier.) He told me to replace it and I responded with father its working fine and there is nothing wrong with it. He responded "I want it replaced!" "I've paid my insurance its my right to have it replaced." Not quite ethical for me to replace it father when it doesn't have a problem. He went over my head to my boss and since it was a big well established account I was told to replace it. Funny thing if I had gone into the confessional and told him that I had swindled the insurnce company out of something he would have been the first to tell me to make amends and make it right.

Its easy to blame and hard to take responsibility. There is a point where logic needs to be called in. I have no love for the devil if there is one but I do believe that logic and common sense needs to be employed. I think this thing of giving needs to be explored more. Who says you cannot give a gift of your talents, your time, your efforts in something that the church will benefit from? Its easy to open up to a passage where it says give XX and it requires more effort to see if there isn't something else written.

[dverna]

6bg6ga,
Last I looked, church leaders are human. Yes, we tend to hold them to a higher standard but it does not always happen.

I have been fortunate to find a church that has a level of hypocrisy I find acceptable. There is no perfect church. If there was, it would be overflowing with followers.

Maybe it is time for you to search out another church?

BTW, I know of two churches that will never demand 10% of your income, or make someone who is unable to contribute cash feel unwelcome.

[JBinMN]

I am getting the feeling that someone is going to have to justify in their mind & heart whether giving of their time is as acceptable as an equivalent to giving of $$. Until that is done & that persons mind( & heart) is made up, that it is going to continue to be an "issue" with them.

I am going to try to offer another example of why I say that ones time is just as valuable as $$.

If the church has a sound system that needs repair & the church would have to spend $100 for labor to have the system fixed, then the outlay of the church would be $100 in the end. If someone that is a member of the church does the repairs and charges $0.00 for their "time", instead of charging $100, the church is now "ahead" due to that members "Time". The church , rather than have an outlay to pay someone the $100, just had a member "pay" the $100 with their "time" to get the work done, rather than having to pay a non member of that church a $100. That would be no different that the member repairing the sound system paying the church the $100 to have the repairs done by a non member.
[ IOW... Church bank account has $1000 in it. Repairs would cost $100, leaving a balance of $900 remaining, after paying someone who is a non member to repair the system. Instead, the church balance is $1000 and a member does the same work for no charge, the balance remains at $1000. Had that member "tithed" $100 in money rather than their time to pay for the non member to do the repairs, the same $100 payed to the non member for repairs would happen, and the church balance still remains at $1000. Thus the TIME by the MEMBER is EQUIVALENT to the $100 that could have been contributed as a "TITHE".

Until someone realizes that TIME can EQUAL $$, and accepts that in their mind ( & heart), then the issue will remain for that person on whether they can TITHE using TIME rather than MONEY.

Let each give according to what they can afford, seems to be the point. Some can afford to tithe TIME while others lacking the skills to tithe with time, tithe with MONEY( or, as in the old days, products of their labors).

Like was said many times now & again just recently by dverna ... perhaps someone should find another church that will accept TIME in labor as an equivalent to the $$ given by labors, instead of making someone worry about how the church feels about what they tithe.

It is "my" belief that their maker & their lord would understand this simple concept of "giving what one could".

I do not think I will reply to this topic any longer. I have tried my best to help & do not know what else that I could do to help any more.

G'Luck! in your decision(s).

[rosewood]

In my experience, those at church that do invest a lot of time also tithe faithfully. It is many that don't tithe that sit in the pews, complain about the paint and carpet color and donate no time or money to the church. And then complain when reminded to give.

[Char-Gar]

6bg6ga....I think we have beat this horse long enough. You have plenty of people that agree with you and have told you why.

This tithing emphasis of "your church" seems to have really gotten under you skin. Time for you to either ignore it (if you can) or find another church (if you can't).

[fatelk]

In my experience, those at church that do invest a lot of time also tithe faithfully. It is many that don't tithe that sit in the pews, complain about the paint and carpet color and donate no time or money to the church. And then complain when reminded to give.

There’s some truth in what you say, but wouldn’t that same observation logically lead one to want to lead people into being more involved, spiritually mature and faithful, rather than just lecturing and shaming them into giving.

If mature, involved people naturally give then results will follow, whereas browbeating people for money just makes them grumble.

Yes I think this thread has run it’s course. We’re not all going to see things like this the same way so the only resolution one can have is personal. My take away is not necessarily to feel justified or relieved of guilt for not “tithing”, but to pursue better understanding and maturity regardless.

[rosewood]

There’s some truth in what you say, but wouldn’t that same observation logically lead one to want to lead people into being more involved, spiritually mature and faithful, rather than just lecturing and shaming them into giving.

Yes, and many of us have explained our experiences through tithing. How we have been blessed. The "shaming" you speak is to those that continuously justify not giving. As a Christian, we are supposed to encourage other Christians and help correct them when they sin (this road goes both ways of course). Not doing what God tells you to do is a sin. No doubt some pastors "shame" you for not giving, but there are those that encourage you to give in a much better fashion. There are also those that say "give us this much right now and God will bless you in the next 48 hours". You need to run from those, those are just trying to get your money.

Rosewood

[fatelk]

I've met a fair number of people over the years who have attributed their financial success to the fact that they've their full 10%, often with a fair amount of self-righteousness. I guess I should attribute the fact that I've struggled over the years in providing for my family to not tithing... oh wait, we did, faithfully for 15 years through thick and thin, even going above that when I was unemployed, for a building project that ended badly.

I have a coworker who struggled when he was younger but has worked hard and saved and is now quite financially comfortable. I guess he can attribute his success to tithing. Actually not, because he's a God-hating agnostic who doesn't give money away.

I don't say those things to knock giving or faith. I have no doubt of God's provision and blessing. We've struggled over the years but have never gone without our basic needs. We still give, because it's right, not because we think God's going to make us rich. I just think that sometimes we get a simplistic idea of how things work based on some cherry picked verses.

Personally I think giving of one's time is actually more valuable, more of a sacrifice. That's where I fall down; I'm a bit selfish with my time. I've seen some retired people give tremendously with their time, and I respect that a lot.

[Char-Gar]

If somebody measures God's blessings by the material things they have, that person has a real problem understanding how God blessed people.

[skeettx]

Char-Gar
I now see what you have two gold bullets and one non-gold bullet
Mike

[Char-Gar]

Char-Gar
I now see what you have two gold bullets and one non-gold bullet
Mike

I had not noticed and have no idea what that means.

[6bg6ga]

Char-Gar
I now see what you have two gold bullets and one non-gold bullet
Mike

What a ridiculous comment. Lets try to stay on the subject please. Char-Gar has as much right to express his opinion as anyone else here.

[6bg6ga]

I've met a fair number of people over the years who have attributed their financial success to the fact that they've their full 10%, often with a fair amount of self-righteousness. I guess I should attribute the fact that I've struggled over the years in providing for my family to not tithing... oh wait, we did, faithfully for 15 years through thick and thin, even going above that when I was unemployed, for a building project that ended badly.

I have a coworker who struggled when he was younger but has worked hard and saved and is now quite financially comfortable. I guess he can attribute his success to tithing. Actually not, because he's a God-hating agnostic who doesn't give money away.

I don't say those things to knock giving or faith. I have no doubt of God's provision and blessing. We've struggled over the years but have never gone without our basic needs. We still give, because it's right, not because we think God's going to make us rich. I just think that sometimes we get a simplistic idea of how things work based on some cherry picked verses.

Personally I think giving of one's time is actually more valuable, more of a sacrifice. That's where I fall down; I'm a bit selfish with my time. I've seen some retired people give tremendously with their time, and I respect that a lot.

I also spent some time being unemployed due to the factory where I had worked faithfully for 20 years closed down. To me its a simply matter of what you have as opposed to what is going out. If I have for example $2500.00 worth of bills a month and $2550.00 coming in its pretty easy to see that I don't have much income left. So, how do I possibly give 10%? Ok, 10% off the top of the $2500.00 is $250.00 and now I'm in the hole bills don't get paid and I loose my home or automobile or cannot put food on the table.

I've heard from some pasters that "the more I give the more I will receive" I don't see that happening and I for one will not give simply so that I may receive. If A-B=C , C doesn't change magically just because you would like it to. My employer has seen fit not to give anyone at the shop a raise in 11 years so A is going to be constant and B is going to change which results in C being smaller yet. So, since I don't have the extra 10% to give I give of my time and talents which to me are a valuable asset and worth the same as a cash contribution. I doubt that God is going to have St. Peter sitting at the gate with a calculator doing the math to see if John or Joe gave a full 10% or not.

[Char-Gar]

What a ridiculous comment. Lets try to stay on the subject please. Char-Gar has as much right to express his opinion as anyone else here.

Was I insulted and just to stupid to know it?

[nh7792]

I had an LDS bishop tell me years ago that you can only give what you can give, regardless of what people say or expect. He did go into great detail about what the $$ is used for and where it goes, and that really floored me. You'd think new churches and temples, but the majority is to helping low income families, natural disaster aid, and their canneries and food manufacturing places that in turn help low income folks.
Your Deity will love you regardless of what % you give. (Can't say the same for the priest/bishop/whatever, asking for the $$)

[lefty o]

I also spent some time being unemployed due to the factory where I had worked faithfully for 20 years closed down. To me its a simply matter of what you have as opposed to what is going out. If I have for example $2500.00 worth of bills a month and $2550.00 coming in its pretty easy to see that I don't have much income left. So, how do I possibly give 10%? Ok, 10% off the top of the $2500.00 is $250.00 and now I'm in the hole bills don't get paid and I loose my home or automobile or cannot put food on the table.

I've heard from some pasters that "the more I give the more I will receive" I don't see that happening and I for one will not give simply so that I may receive. If A-B=C , C doesn't change magically just because you would like it to. My employer has seen fit not to give anyone at the shop a raise in 11 years so A is going to be constant and B is going to change which results in C being smaller yet. So, since I don't have the extra 10% to give I give of my time and talents which to me are a valuable asset and worth the same as a cash contribution. I doubt that God is going to have St. Peter sitting at the gate with a calculator doing the math to see if John or Joe gave a full 10% or not.

im pretty sure your safe from someone checking on if you gave 10% or not at the pearly gate. however those that harass, and cajole( you know the whole robbing god bs) people into that 10% in the name of the lord are going to have some serious problems!

[popper]

Didn't God give us the 10 commandments? And didn't one say "Thou shalt not kill?" Uh, don't MURDER. Didn't say you could't appreciate a beautiful woman either, just don't 'covet' them. Yes, David did have those problems BUT was still 'forgiven' to an extent. Which brings up another 'problem' for New/Old separatists.

[Char-Gar]

Didn't God give us the 10 commandments? And didn't one say "Thou shalt not kill?" Uh, don't MURDER. Didn't say you could't appreciate a beautiful woman either, just don't 'covet' them. Yes, David did have those problems BUT was still 'forgiven' to an extent. Which brings up another 'problem' for New/Old separatists.

Read the Sermon on the Mount given by Jesus. This was the central core of his ethical teachings. In that he gave a new slant on the old Law (Commandments). To the Jew the strict adherence to the letter of the law was all that was needed. Jesus said that we need to go beyond to letter of the law to the spirit of the law as well.The condition of your heart and spirit could be as bad as an actual violation of the law. Intentions and thinking really do matter, as much as obedience to the law.

[max it]

hi, i couldnt read it all but i must comment;
as a bible believing member of the kingdom of God and his Christ.
giving is good.
'tithe' is from a time when there were no taxes (maybe that was the tax Abe gave Melchizedek? if so it was not an arm and a leg but on gold and silver and booty.
'tithe' in OT was not on land, or medicine, or insurance because simply it wasn't needed. O land, well everyone had it by conquest, and even if they lost it the Jubilee returned it every 50 years. need i say more?

[fatelk]

I also spent some time being unemployed due to the factory where I had worked faithfully for 20 years closed down. To me its a simply matter of what you have as opposed to what is going out. If I have for example $2500.00 worth of bills a month and $2550.00 coming in its pretty easy to see that I don't have much income left. So, how do I possibly give 10%? Ok, 10% off the top of the $2500.00 is $250.00 and now I'm in the hole bills don't get paid and I loose my home or automobile or cannot put food on the table.

I’m in the same boat, or very similar at least. There are some who would say that we should take a leap of faith and give that 10% off the top, even if it means going into debt and forgoing retirement and helping family. They say that God will provide and those things will take care of themselves, somehow. Maybe that’s true. I don’t know. Maybe I do need stronger faith. Most likely.

When our pastor preached on giving he talked about tithing, and gently chastised those who say they can’t afford to give, but drive new cars all the time, eat out a lot, take nice vacations, etc.. they have no money to give because they spend it all on themselves and aren’t willing to sacrifice.

I may be mistaken but you sound much like myself, in that you really want to do the right thing and are bothered and feel maybe a tinge of guilt that they may be right and more is required of you than you think you can do. You probably respect church leadership and don’t lightly reject church teaching. Maybe you worry that you’re just trying to justify what you want. Or maybe I’m just assuming that because it’s what I went through.

Anyhow, I actually talked to my pastor one time (in conversation on a trip to the range) and he basically said that since we are so frugal and still give some, he didn’t think it was reasonable to go into debt or forgo essentials just to meet that magic 10%, and he does believe in a literal tithe.

If you’re giving what you can, involved and helping as you can, I think you’re doing great. That’s just me though, and I’ve been wrong before.

[AK Caster]

Thread is comical at times. Whats going to happen to you if you decide not to give 10%. Are you going to hell? What if you give 9.5%?
I would love to see a honest survey of ministers, preists, etc to see how much of their salary they give to the church.

[fatelk]

That’s why the thread is in the “Deep theological discussions” sub forum. We’ve all got different beliefs and opinions, and we’re not going to all agree, but it is interesting to discuss.

Maybe some do believe they’ll go to hell if they don’t follow the letter of the law, maybe some just sincerely want to do the right thing. I know some think it’s all foolishness, but that’s not what the thread is about.

[dkf]

I now have a better understanding how the large number of big fancy churches in my area stay in business. I also understand how there are so many horrible people I know whom are in church every Sunday figure they are still going to heaven despite their horribleness. They figure they can just buy their way to heaven, it seems that is what they are told and believe.

[marshall623]

We as a family pay our Tithes , I can also say that we can do more with the 90% than with the 100% . I believe that you cant out give God . God has always made a way when things get tough , even as a young single Christian when the truck need repair or tires or other bills, even when work was slow there was always O.T. that popped up . God said he would open up the windows of heaven and pour out his blessings on us . I give God praise for he is going to do for my family and we stand upon his word . I'm not going to say that is my 2 cents , but it is what I believe with my whole heart. I recommend give what you can and watch God do the rest. Gods blessings are just money and material things , but safety and his protection , health , and even the deer and game in our freezer .

[lefty o]

I now have a better understanding how the large number of big fancy churches in my area stay in business. I also understand how there are so many horrible people I know whom are in church every Sunday figure they are still going to heaven despite their horribleness. They figure they can just buy their way to heaven, it seems that is what they are told and believe.

there is a mighty big chunk of truth to what you said!

[Lloyd Smale]

been a catholic all my life. I know they used to tell the parish a percentage to give but ive never heard that once in all of my adult life in any catholic church. Ive NEVER heard of ANY catholic church asking for tax info. If they did id be calling the bishop and complaining. I give what I feel I can afford and it varies week to week and its surely not even 5percent of my income. Bottom line is NO priest can tell you cant be a member unless you give X amount anyway so why even worry about it?
I was raised a catholic and now I go to a christian church. I have a hard time with the money they expect one to give. They want 10% before taxes and I cannot give that. So, am I going to hell because I cannot give 10% of my earnings? I guess I could give if I didn't buy groceries and pay bills. I do repair their electronic gear for free but I was told that was not counted. I would have thought that giving of my time my experience and talent would be accepted as much as a money offering. If I didn't repair their electronics they would be spending some of the money they take in to pay for it from someone else.

When I was a catholic the parish asked for 5%. Now, some churches in my area would like to see Tax info to determine what your going to give. Maybe its more about the money than it is about saving souls anymore. There have been quite a few times when I have witnessed someone going into the church to talk to a priest or paster only to be asked if they have an appointment. Maybe whipping out the old check book would buy some time?

[fatelk]

I believe that you cant out give God . God has always made a way when things get tough , even as a young single Christian when the truck need repair or tires or other bills, even when work was slow there was always O.T. that popped up . God said he would open up the windows of heaven and pour out his blessings on us .

I do respect that and I’m not challenging you on it, by any means, but my question is: if I choose instead to pay the electric bill and only have enough left to give 9%, will I not be blessed?

Should I instead give that required 10% off the top instead of buying groceries, having faith that extra money will unexpectedly fall out of the sky from somewhere to feed my family?

Yes I know I’m making up extreme hypothetical situations, but just to illustrate my thoughts.

[fatelk]

I’m sorry everyone, for contributing to the contention in this thread. It’s just that I’ve been burned a little bit on this issue and have gone through something of a mild crisis of faith, partially as a result. I have some very strong mixed feelings. I’ll bow out now because I feel that I’ve rambled on too much.

[6bg6ga]

I’m sorry everyone, for contributing to the contention in this thread. It’s just that I’ve been burned a little bit on this issue and have gone through something of a mild crisis of faith, partially as a result. I have some very strong mixed feelings. I’ll bow out now because I feel that I’ve rambled on too much.

Why bow out? Got something to share then by all means do it. I'm very opinionated and say what I think and don't care what others may think or how they react. The purpose of a forum is to communicate and share ideas and that is why I started this particular thread.

[Ickisrulz]

I think that God would like to see everyone (worldwide) living a comfortable life. I don't believe he'd want us all living a life luxury and material excess, just comfortable. The impediment to this is that God allows man, for the most part, to manage his own affairs. What we have is due to where we live, our government, how we earn a living and how we manage our money.

The Gospel doesn't promise material blessings anywhere. What it does promise is that God is with us regardless of our circumstances; rich, poor or in prison.

One more thought: Even when Israel faithfully tithed and she was blessed materially as a nation, she still had her poor and the Law provided for their relief.

[6bg6ga]

I understand that some reading or responding in this thread cannot or will not understand how people like me would even dare to question the subject of tithing. While it is ok to question church doctrine is isn't ok to question tithing. People have left the Catholic church and established the Lutheran church just as one example. Other churches have also been established because people didn't believe portions of church teaching or disagreed with what was being taught.

Unfortunately in my case I am locked into a situation where I probably provided too good of a home and I'm still paying on it and its ridiculous taxes. I have a employer that it would seem would rather wrap up money into racing cars than give his employees a raise in the last 11 years. Prices on groceries and essentials are still going up and I don't have much disposable cash to even come close to the written 10% as stated in the bible.

Others have agreed with me on tithing time instead of money and yet some say it isn't recognized. Personal observation here.... I've seen some in the church that I go to that I know do give 10% but yet wouldn't do a thing to help someone in need. I have a problem with that attitude. I seem to have a problem when I am told the more that you give the more you will be blessed like it is supposed to be some kind of contest.

I guess that some of you reading can stand there with a smirk on your face and a condescending attitude. So be it. You do what you can do and you try to live with it.

[AK Caster]

I think that God would like to see everyone (worldwide) living a comfortable life. I don't believe he'd want us all living a life luxury and material excess, just comfortable.

You make it sound like God is a socialist and that hard work should not be rewarded.

[dverna]

You make it sound like God is a socialist and that hard work should not be rewarded.

You may be closer to the truth about God leaning more towards socialism than capitalism. If you think about the parable of the vineyard owner and the workers he hired at various times of the day to harvest his grapes, it may shed some light. He paid them the same whether they worked from 9 in the morning, noon, or were hired at 5:00.

And before anyone jumps on me I know the parable's meaning in the greater sense.

[fatelk]

No offense intended, but you seem pretty defensive about this. It’s a personal thing, between you and God. I’m on your side, but I think that those that give 10% aren’t necessarily wrong either unless they’re pushy and condescending about it.

We’re not all going to agree. Expecting to change anyone’s mind, especially on a matter of faith, will just end in frustration.

[lefty o]

You make it sound like God is a socialist and that hard work should not be rewarded.

i like how folks put this on God, when its the church. heck the catholic church has more money than most countries do, yet they want more, always! it is nothing to do with God as far as i can see it.

[largom]

Then sir you would easily be able to do the math and see that baby animals would also not fit when you consider all the species. So, are you saying that Noah harvested DNA preserved it and somehow manipulated it to arrive at different breeds of canines for example? Questionable that plants were available in seed form given the somewhat limited time Noah had to build the Ark.

I'm sorry but the tale is like a childs bedtime story. Sounds good until you start breaking it down into logical form.

Same as the myth of Adam and Eve.

[Char-Gar]

The Book of Acts, tells us that the the early Christians in Jerusalem, sold all they had and came and gave the money to the Apostles. The Apostles then gave out the good and money to the entire church according to the individual needs. Some real contention arose because one of the ethnic Jewish groups (Hellenistic and Hebrew) thought they were being shortchanged. The Apostles soon grew tired of all the bickering and appointed some men to oversee the distribution.

This leads to several observations;

1. The early church practiced a primitive form of socialism or communal living.
2. Racism and victim-hood is nothing new.
3. Human nature, even Christian human nature is a PITA.

[Thundarstick]

Do you think they did this because the apostles where demanding they give up their possessions, or because they thought it was a matter of days or weeks until Christ return?

[fatelk]

Many things in the Bible are simply recorded as history and are often misunderstood as instructional. It’s “They did this” rather than “You need to do it this way”.

Reading the Bible (or any ancient or foreign text for that matter) without some cultural context or understanding, can be very confusing at times.

[Char-Gar]

Do you think they did this because the apostles where demanding they give up their possessions, or because they thought it was a matter of days or weeks until Christ return?

It is reasonable clear from the NT material, that the folks were expecting Jesus to return in their lifetime. Who knows what the motive was behind this communal approach, but I doubt is was an apostolic demand.

[Char-Gar]

Many things in the Bible are simply recorded as history and are often misunderstood as instructional. It’s “They did this” rather than “You need to do it this way”.

Reading the Bible (or any ancient or foreign text for that matter) without some cultural context or understanding, can be very confusing at times.

True!

[xdmalder]

Here's some info on what tithing was like for the Israelites. Nothing was ever added to this in Scripture.

http://www.askelm.com/tithing/thi006.htm

[Thundarstick]

Spot on!

[Lloyd Smale]

I guess I have to ask this. Do you go to church? Obviously you do if your complaining about how much money they want you to contribute. If you don't go to church your just trying to stir up **** here. If you do go to church don't you think its your responsibility to keep it solvent. Do you think you should go there and give a dollar or even nothing and the rest of the congregation can pay for the heat, electric, maintenance, pastors salary and other expenses. Some will balk at even giving 10 or 20 bucks a week to there church but think nothing of picking up a couple boxes of primers, some bullets, lead, put gas in there Harley ect. God doesn't give your pastor his pay check you and I do. If you truly cant afford to even give one dollar then ill happily pay my share and you can still come to church just like me. No catholic or protestant church I have ever heard of has turned away someone because they cant afford to donate. That said if you can afford it and don't then you will have to answer to God not me for your selfishness. Bottom line is if your so poor you cant even give a dollar then you must have hitched a ride to church because you spent more then that on gas getting there. Id rather you called me to get a ride to church rather then spend that dollar on gas and take that dollar and give it to your church. but I do challenge anyone here to show me physical PROOF that a church bans you because you don't give a certain percentage of you income to support it other then some of the cult churches. Maybe if you feel insecure about how much you donate instead of lashing out at your church here you ought to do some soul searching and park the Harley or get by with not shooting so much this week or take that money your putting away for your next gun and give it to your church.

[6bg6ga]

I guess I have to ask this. Do you go to church? Obviously you do if your complaining about how much money they want you to contribute. If you don't go to church your just trying to stir up **** here. If you do go to church don't you think its your responsibility to keep it solvent. Do you think you should go there and give a dollar or even nothing and the rest of the congregation can pay for the heat, electric, maintenance, pastors salary and other expenses. Some will balk at even giving 10 or 20 bucks a week to there church but think nothing of picking up a couple boxes of primers, some bullets, lead, put gas in there Harley ect. God doesn't give your pastor his pay check you and I do. If you truly cant afford to even give one dollar then ill happily pay my share and you can still come to church just like me. No catholic or protestant church I have ever heard of has turned away someone because they cant afford to donate. That said if you can afford it and don't then you will have to answer to God not me for your selfishness. Bottom line is if your so poor you cant even give a dollar then you must have hitched a ride to church because you spent more then that on gas getting there. Id rather you called me to get a ride to church rather then spend that dollar on gas and take that dollar and give it to your church. but I do challenge anyone here to show me physical PROOF that a church bans you because you don't give a certain percentage of you income to support it other then some of the cult churches. Maybe if you feel insecure about how much you donate instead of lashing out at your church here you ought to do some soul searching and park the Harley or get by with not shooting so much this week or take that money your putting away for your next gun and give it to your church.

Confused? Who is this directed to?

[high standard 40]

But I do challenge anyone here to show me physical PROOF that a church bans you because you don't give a certain percentage of you income to support it other then some of the cult churches.

I don't have physical proof to offer but I can attest to the system in place at a "Full Gospel" church I was once a regular member of. I haven't returned there in quite a few years now and it may have changed since then. But at that time you were required to fill out a very detailed admission form to be a recognized member. This form asked for all of your family financial data and based on this, you would receive a statement every month for what the church felt you owed and you were expected to pay it. Additionally, at every Sunday service, the first 15-30 minutes of the sermon centered on your tithing requirements. I was a little put off by this tact.

[Lloyd Smale]

nobody in particular. Point is I haven't found the same thing you have in catholic churches (that part was directed at you) and don't think some are right that think they shouldn't have to contribute anything.(that was directed at people that expect everything to be handed to them)
Confused? Who is this directed to?

[Lloyd Smale]

never saw anyting like that in a catholic church. Only time I even hear money mentioned is if theres going to be a second special collection the next week for things like the building fund, priests retirements ect but they are optional too. Ive never even heard one priest in my time in the church (granted I only went as a child and came back to the church about 10 years ago) mention tides. Or giving a set percentage of your income. Like I said before if one asked me for my tax records id laugh in his face and find another church. That's getting awful personal.
I don't have physical proof to offer but I can attest to the system in place at a "Full Gospel" church I was once a regular member of. I haven't returned there in quite a few years now and it may have changed since then. But at that time you were required to fill out a very detailed admission form to be a recognized member. This form asked for all of your family financial data and based on this, you would receive a statement every month for what the church felt you owed and you were expected to pay it. Additionally, at every Sunday service, the first 15-30 minutes of the sermon centered on your tithing requirements. I was a little put off by this tact.

[6bg6ga]

nobody in particular. Point is I haven't found the same thing you have in catholic churches (that part was directed at you) and don't think some are right that think they shouldn't have to contribute anything.(that was directed at people that expect everything to be handed to them)

Actually Lloyd I could give you the years in which I heard the weekly sunday discussion on money along with the parish and the catholic church I belonged to along with the priest who delivered the weekly sermons. Week end week out every sunday we heard about the money that was needed and what our parish needed to come up with. The priest wa a jerk that made his way up the chain. It was St. Joseph's and the priest was Father Blessington. After he was replaced there was no more sunday butt chewing sessions on contributions. The next preist was the cause of me leaving the catholic church. I didn't take the ridicule in front of the congregation because I left 5 minutes before mass had ended to be at work on time as not to be fired for being late.

[AK Caster]

i like how folks put this on God, when its the church. heck the catholic church has more money than most countries do, yet they want more, always! it is nothing to do with God as far as i can see it.

Did your church ever turn down any monetary donation?

[fatelk]

I don't have physical proof to offer but I can attest to the system in place at a "Full Gospel" church I was once a regular member of. I haven't returned there in quite a few years now and it may have changed since then. But at that time you were required to fill out a very detailed admission form to be a recognized member. This form asked for all of your family financial data and based on this, you would receive a statement every month for what the church felt you owed and you were expected to pay it. Additionally, at every Sunday service, the first 15-30 minutes of the sermon centered on your tithing requirements. I was a little put off by this tact.

Wow, that’s way over the top! Sounds more like a cult, to me.

[lead-1]

I try to stay away from posting in these threads because I feel unarmed, even though I have been going to church for over thirteen years now.
That said tithes is something I do try to stay as true as I can get to, meaning amount and on time. I look at it like this, to paraphrase the Bible says, to whom much is given much is required.
I had been disabled for roughly a year and the money train had stopped long before. I was able to keep utilities current but electric was getting ready to be a double bill which in my mind was a terrible thing, I said "nothing to anyone" but God. I had like fifteen bucks in my pocket and that was the last of it until the wife got her part time check in ten days or so, I kept five dollars to buy her a lunch at her work on Monday and one pack of smokes because she was still smoking at that time and I knew how hard she tried to quit and it was getting the best of her.
I dropped the rest in the offering plate not knowing how we would get by until payday, like I said, I told no one not even the wife of our situation and when leaving church one of the deacons caught me and ask me to shake hands and when he did he put $200 dollars in my hand and said it was in the offering plate with a note to pass the money on to my family.
Folks I'm almost in tears again typing this as I was that day but if that isn't answered prayers I don't know what is. I believe in paying my tithes that's for sure.

[Lloyd Smale]

Now that more closely falls in line with what ive seen in our church. That few dollars you donated meant more then some rich sob giving a 1000. God bless you. You are definitely a good man.
I try to stay away from posting in these threads because I feel unarmed, even though I have been going to church for over thirteen years now.
That said tithes is something I do try to stay as true as I can get to, meaning amount and on time. I look at it like this, to paraphrase the Bible says, to whom much is given much is required.
I had been disabled for roughly a year and the money train had stopped long before. I was able to keep utilities current but electric was getting ready to be a double bill which in my mind was a terrible thing, I said "nothing to anyone" but God. I had like fifteen bucks in my pocket and that was the last of it until the wife got her part time check in ten days or so, I kept five dollars to buy her a lunch at her work on Monday and one pack of smokes because she was still smoking at that time and I knew how hard she tried to quit and it was getting the best of her.
I dropped the rest in the offering plate not knowing how we would get by until payday, like I said, I told no one not even the wife of our situation and when leaving church one of the deacons caught me and ask me to shake hands and when he did he put $200 dollars in my hand and said it was in the offering plate with a note to pass the money on to my family.
Folks I'm almost in tears again typing this as I was that day but if that isn't answered prayers I don't know what is. I believe in paying my tithes that's for sure.

[Lloyd Smale]

Actually Lloyd I could give you the years in which I heard the weekly sunday discussion on money along with the parish and the catholic church I belonged to along with the priest who delivered the weekly sermons. Week end week out every sunday we heard about the money that was needed and what our parish needed to come up with. The priest wa a jerk that made his way up the chain. It was St. Joseph's and the priest was Father Blessington. After he was replaced there was no more sunday butt chewing sessions on contributions. The next preist was the cause of me leaving the catholic church. I didn't take the ridicule in front of the congregation because I left 5 minutes before mass had ended to be at work on time as not to be fired for being late.

We were told this by our priest. If you have to leave church before the blessing at the end of mass to get ahold of him before church and tell him your going to do it and try to sit toward the back of the church as to not draw a lot of attention.. Seems theres a rash of liberals who walk out of church to make a show of it lately and also he feels the blessing is a very important part of mass. We had it happen once while I was there. The priest made a comment about same sex marriage being wrong and three people got up and walked out.

[lefty o]

Did your church ever turn down any monetary donation?

have you ever heard of a church turning down money? sorry to answer a question with a question, but lets be real.

[tinhorn97062]

Whoa...somebody finally brought some real meat to the table.

[6bg6ga]

We were told this by our priest. If you have to leave church before the blessing at the end of mass to get ahold of him before church and tell him your going to do it and try to sit toward the back of the church as to not draw a lot of attention.. Seems theres a rash of liberals who walk out of church to make a show of it lately and also he feels the blessing is a very important part of mass. We had it happen once while I was there. The priest made a comment about same sex marriage being wrong and three people got up and walked out.

I was 16 at the time which was 48 years ago. I had explained the circumstances to him and I had always sat in the back so I wouldn't draw attention to myself. He was dead set on the fact that I hadn't been there for 100% of the mass. It didn't make a hill of beans difference to him if I got fired or not for being late. The particular store manager didn't like me and made it quite clear if I didn't do absolutely everything 100% by the book I was gone. Others however could come in 5 minutes late and nothing was said. No, I didn't ever start any trouble at work was always punctual and always did my work to the best of my ability.

I didn't feel it was necessary for the priest to turn around, point his finger at me and scream "You haven't full filled your sunday obligation'' in front of at least a 1/2-3/4 filled church at 5:00 AM sunday mass.

[Lloyd Smale]

Your absolutely right and you should have had your parents contact the bishop and complain and for sure found a different parish with a different priest because for every bad cranky old catholic priest youll find youll also find a 100 fantastic ones.
I was 16 at the time which was 48 years ago. I had explained the circumstances to him and I had always sat in the back so I wouldn't draw attention to myself. He was dead set on the fact that I hadn't been there for 100% of the mass. It didn't make a hill of beans difference to him if I got fired or not for being late. The particular store manager didn't like me and made it quite clear if I didn't do absolutely everything 100% by the book I was gone. Others however could come in 5 minutes late and nothing was said. No, I didn't ever start any trouble at work was always punctual and always did my work to the best of my ability.

I didn't feel it was necessary for the priest to turn around, point his finger at me and scream "You haven't full filled your sunday obligation'' in front of at least a 1/2-3/4 filled church at 5:00 AM sunday mass.

[6bg6ga]

Your absolutely right and you should have had your parents contact the bishop and complain and for sure found a different parish with a different priest because for every bad cranky old catholic priest youll find youll also find a 100 fantastic ones.

Thanks for your comments Lloyd. I probably should have done that but that was a long time ago and there is much water under the bridge now. Like I mentioned I still have the memories of the weekly money sermons. They didn't ask for 10%. Your were asked to give 5% IF you could afford it. Most couldn't and gave what they could. The priest however had sights on the monsignor post and made it before he left the parish. The next priest was an ex navy chaplin with a attitude like a riled up rattlesnake. He was the one that singled me out and the reason I left and never came back. No pedophile priests however ever graced our parish. We did have one young priest that was a drunk and he was removed within a years of landing in the parish.

[high standard 40]

One more story, not really related to tithing, but relevant to a church and money.

My whole family, dad, mom, and 5 kids, were Catholic. I have a brother who was, and still is, an accomplished musician. He plays bass guitar and sings quite well. He offered his talents to the church for Sunday mass along with a friend of his who played 6 string guitar and also sang. They used their own equipment and were a very tight pair and were well received by the congregation. After a time they decided to acquire some better equipment to be used at mass. With the help of other church members a benefit was arranged to finance this equipment. It did quite well. When the local diocese heard of this benefit, it stepped in and demanded all the money generated saying that my brother and his friend had no right to decide how to spend the money from this benefit, only the diocese could do that. The church lost their music group and my brother never returned to that church. So, not really about tithing but illustrative of some churches' thirst for money.

[popper]

you know the whole robbing god
How can one 'rob' God of what is His and he 'loans' us for our life on earth?
We can only attempt to rob him of His Glory and Majesty - even that doeasn't really work.

[Redclay]

I tithe 10% every month and have for years (since my acceptance of Christ as my lord) more if I can spare it. Sacrificial giving is something even unbelievers do (children parents etc.) I just do it to the glory of god. Castboolits and believers, i’m In the right place!

[popper]

You may be closer to the truth about God leaning more towards socialism than capitalism. If you think about the parable of the vineyard owner and the workers he hired at various times of the day to harvest his grapes, it may shed some light. He paid them the same whether they worked from 9 in the morning, noon, or were hired at 5:00.
Because that was the contract, not socialism. They were 'day' workers, to give them less would be cheating them.
It actually is an allegory to those who accept Christ late in life vs early. Again, it is the 'Contract'.

[6bg6ga]

Bottom line...you give what you can afford to give. You cannot give what you don't have. I doubt that God would want you homeless just to get that magical 10%. But I'm sure that some here unable to see logic will dictate that that magical 10% must be given. I don't have that 10% in cash money so I do what I feel is right. I repair in God's name and donate the parts needed for those repairs. In my mind my donated parts and my time are just as good as cash and that is my 10%.

[lefty o]

Bottom line...you give what you can afford to give. You cannot give what you don't have. I doubt that God would want you homeless just to get that magical 10%. But I'm sure that some here unable to see logic will dictate that that magical 10% must be given. I don't have that 10% in cash money so I do what I feel is right. I repair in God's name and donate the parts needed for those repairs. In my mind my donated parts and my time are just as good as cash and that is my 10%.

i think your all good. those that dont, are warped.

[Moonie]

I give God 10% of the money he provides to us, from my first fruits.

[Thundarstick]

So the original question was? Am I going to hell if I don't give 10% before taxes, and, does my time count for nothing?

Is anyone here guilty of "blowing the trumpets" to let everyone know, "look here, I'm leaving a big gift at the alter"? Just saying again, "ain't nobodies business what you give, or don't give"!

[Shiloh]

We are under 10% but workin toward it.

Shiloh

[Char-Gar]

This entire thread is based on the assumption that by giving to a particular church, you are giving to God. This group seems to be a particularly brain washed group, as there is very little examination of the basic assumption, whether it is true or not.

[popper]

The German Gov. assesses a tax on church members. The German church membership is going down. IIRC, Japan did the same sort of thing for the Shinto (you were declared a member even if not). Do what YOU want. Nobody on this earth has the authority to send you to Hell.

[Electric88]

This entire thread is based on the assumption that by giving to a particular church, you are giving to God. This group seems to be a particularly brain washed group, as there is very little examination of the basic assumption, whether it is true or not.

I'm gonna make the assumption that the people who believe giving to a particular church (their church?) is the same as giving to God probably believe this because that's how they think God will use their money. None of them are aware of any sort of direct bank account for God that they can donate to

[Traffer]

Tyndale Life Application Daily Devotion
You must set aside a tithe of your crops—one-tenth of all the crops you harvest each year. Bring this tithe to the designated place of worship—the place the LORD your God chooses for his name to be honored—and eat it there in his presence. This applies to your tithes of grain, new wine, olive oil, and the firstborn males of your flocks and herds. Doing this will teach you always to fear the LORD your God.
— Deuteronomy 14:22-23 NLT
Insight
The Bible makes the purpose of tithing very clear: It teaches us to fear the Lord and put him first in our lives. We are to give God the first and best of what we earn. For example, what we do first with our money shows what we value most. Giving the first part of our paycheck to God immediately focuses our attention on him. It also reminds us that all we have belongs to him.
Challenge
A habit of regular tithing can keep God at the top of our priority list and give us a proper perspective on everything else we have.
© 2010 by Tyndale House Publishers

[6bg6ga]

Tyndale Life Application Daily Devotion
You must set aside a tithe of your crops—one-tenth of all the crops you harvest each year. Bring this tithe to the designated place of worship—the place the LORD your God chooses for his name to be honored—and eat it there in his presence. This applies to your tithes of grain, new wine, olive oil, and the firstborn males of your flocks and herds. Doing this will teach you always to fear the LORD your God.
— Deuteronomy 14:22-23 NLT
Insight
The Bible makes the purpose of tithing very clear: It teaches us to fear the Lord and put him first in our lives. We are to give God the first and best of what we earn. For example, what we do first with our money shows what we value most. Giving the first part of our paycheck to God immediately focuses our attention on him. It also reminds us that all we have belongs to him.
Challenge
A habit of regular tithing can keep God at the top of our priority list and give us a proper perspective on everything else we have.
© 2010 by Tyndale House Publishers

This isn't even logical. We must fear the Lord? Really makes me think that we are nothing but animals that must be trained. Don't walk on the line and you will be punished just like a horse your training. God is supposed to be a loving God. I'm beginning to believe the Bible may just be BS. Nothing but a bunch of stories that were supposed to be the word of God. Too much of it just doesn't add up as far as I am concerned.

[Plate plinker]

I did tithe for years, faithfully. Until I found out that 40% of all that came in went to the parent church. And the national church was using those funds to promote gun control, and were giving money to terrorists.

Pastor and I had a few conversations about it. The best he came up with, was he said I could earmark my givings to be used only on our local church, for maintenance, upkeep, etc.

And I countered with, and ever dollar I do that with means another dollar from someone else that you can send to your liberal policys? He said yes, that is true.

I said when the Methodist church gets out of gun control lobbying I'll reconsider.

Still waiting.

Thats my gripe with these huge outfits. KEEP IT LOCAL

[jmort]

Hebrews 10:31
New International Version
"It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God"

To each his own. We are tiny and insignificant and short lived.


Luke 12:5
"But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear the One who, after you have been killed, has power to throw you into hell. Yes, I tell you, fear Him!"