Best grade choice Marlin 1895 GS

[Washington1331]

Gents,

I've been pondering, and I know its dangerous. I've always been a fan of using cartridges the way they were designed. So, I got the "bright" idea of going brush hunting with my marlin 1895GS in 45-70. I thought it might be fun to use holy black under a Lee 405HB.

With the shorter barrel on my 1895, I was having a conversation with myself about what grade of holy black to use. I have Goex FG and FFG. I use FG in my trapdoor springfields, but I'm thinking that a full case of FFG under the boolit will give me better results with the shorter barrel.

I've been known to be wrong, so I figured I'd ask the forum to see if anyone else had experience with this folly.

Thanks for your help in advance.

Warmest Regards,
Washington1331

[Knarley]

A full case of powder will get you nothing but trouble........

[Lead pot]

I would park that Lee 405 hollow base mould and get the https://www.buffaloarms.com/458-400-grn-fn-lyman-1-cav-mould-457643-lym2640643 mould. The bullet will work very good in a lever rifle with black powder for many shots fired with out getting into a fouled throat with the way the ogive is designed with out a bore riding portion.
Load it with a compressed 1 or 2F load that shoots the best and have fun.
I use a custom Pope design like the Lyman 121 PH. The Lyman bullet is a little undersized for a 95 marlin chamber the diameter it drops from the Lyman mould but it works fine using black powder because it bumps up just fine.

[Chill Wills]

By full case I think he means full except for the part the bullet occupies.

One F or two, I doubt you will have much change in hunting outcome. Both can work fine with load work-up.- Short barrel or not.
Try both.

[Chill Wills]

Kurt and I were typing at the same time and I agree , a Lyman 457 193 or the BAC bullet if you have more money to spend, will be a better bullet for the lever rifle.

[Washington1331]

I just realized that I put FFG instead of FFFG. Do you think that FFFG with the shorter barrel would allow for better velocity. I agree that the Lee 405HB is not the greatest grease carrier, I really hope that it wouldn't take more than 1 shot, not the entire magazine tube.

[country gent]

You might try the lyman 4571214? 405 grn round nose over enough 2 ff to give .090-.100 compression with a .030-.060 wad to protect the base of the bullet. Use a lube for black powder. SPG is good as is emmerts improved if you want to make your own. You need a lube that keeps the fouling soft and workable. Use a compression die or tool to compress powder. I don't think 3f will gain that much velocity over properly compressed 2f. The only way to know for sure is to chronograph both loads and see.

Emmerts Improved

50% beeswax
40% unsalted Crisco shortening
5% canola oil
5% anahydrous lanolin

melt ingrediants together in a double boiler stirring briskly to mix and let cool. A drop or 2 of murpies oil soap helps to mix the ingrediants together.

[Washington1331]

Thanks everyone for the input.

[EDG]

The 45-70 was designed as a single shot round capable of shooting a long round nose 500 grain bullet. The cartridges for repeaters are not true 45-70 ammo unless you have a bolt gun with a long magazine.

[john.k]

The 405HB is a copy of a gen-u -ine black powder bullet.It also casts 460,which is good in a Marlin.I would go with it plus as much 2F as will fit ,which likely wont be 70 gr,but less.Use a BP lube, theres plenty of groove on the bullet,and its not too pointy to have 2 in the magazine,if you are worried ,flatten the point a little....You can certainly shoot one without any lube,but the second will be glad of it.

[longbow]

I used to use the Lyman 457124 (385 gr.) over whatever I could get into the cartridge under it using FFFg powder with good results in my 1970's vintage 1895. Generally it seems that FFg is preferable in larger bores but not only didn't we get much choice in powder granulation where I lived, I found FFFg worked well in anything I shot. Not talking 1000 yard accuracy here but general target shooting and plinking.

The Marlin .45-70 burning FFFg was noticeably more efficient than a .58 Zouave using FFFG beside me... sharper crack, less muzzle flash/sparks and smacking the 100 yard gong much harder.

As said above, try Fg, FFg and FFFg and see what your gun likes. I'm thinking with short barrel FFFg might have an edge over the coarser powders.

Longbow

[Chill Wills]

The 45-70 was designed as a single shot round capable of shooting a long round nose 500 grain bullet. The cartridges for repeaters are not true 45-70 ammo unless you have a bolt gun with a long magazine.

The first 45-70 round was designed using a 500 grain round nose :confused::?: , not a 405?

[Don McDowell]

The 45-70 was designed as a single shot round capable of shooting a long round nose 500 grain bullet. The cartridges for repeaters are not true 45-70 ammo unless you have a bolt gun with a long magazine.

Actually the 45-70 was designed to shoot a bullet .458 diameter 1.1 inches long, composed of 16-1 alloy, and could have a hollow swaged in the base to bring the weight to specifications (405 gr.) but not so deep as to affect accuracy. The 500 gr bullet did not come along until 1881, and even then the maximum length was to be kept at 2.6 inches. That 2.6 inch coal was what allowed it to be chambered reliably in the Winchester and Marlin lever action rifles.

[Washington1331]

Now we've hit on something that I actually know a little about, since I enjoy shooting my trapdoor springfields whenever I get the chance and permission from the wife to hit the range.

I've read Spence Wolf's book several times, and the original 45-70 round was a cast 20:1 405 grain hollow base boolit over 70 grains of musket power. The cartridge case was a copper alloy with an internal primer. The case did not become brass until after Custer's defeat at Little Big Horn... supposedly chamber jamming was a major issue with the copper case.

In 1879, the Springfield Armory did conducted the testing of long range fire at the proving grounds at sandy hook. (you can read about it here: http://home.earthlink.net/~sharpsshtr/CritterPhotos/SandyHook/SandyHook.html ) There they tested an improved 45-70 round which later became the 500 grain 45-70 loading. If my memory serves me it was not until 1884 that the 500 grain round became standard for the trapdoor infantry rifle.

[Chill Wills]

Yup! :wink:

[John in PA]

The 45-70 was designed as a single shot round capable of shooting a long round nose 500 grain bullet. The cartridges for repeaters are not true 45-70 ammo unless you have a bolt gun with a long magazine.

Actually, the 500 grain bullet was not designed by the Frankford Arsenal till 1881, as a way to get better downrange energy retention without reworking the entire cartridge design. Prior to that the 405 hollow-base was the Army issue bullet for both rifle (70 gr powder) and carbine (55 gr powder) And the 405 gr remained the issue carbine bullet for the service life of the .45 Government cartridge.

The Lee 405HB, cast 1:20 (NO antimony!) is a very good performer, and cartridge OAL will work much better in your Marlin than the 500 gr 1881 bullet, which has a much longer nose. Authentic, too!

All the testing Spence Wolf did back in the 1970's and 80's trying to recreate Frankford Arsenal ammunition performance with modern components yielded the following information regarding 2F vs 3F in the .45-70 case. You can duplicate velocities of 2F 70 grains with 63 grains of 3F. I doubt the intended target will notice a 10% increase in energy. BTW, to get that much powder in the case, you need a compression die that compresses the powder into a solid pellet (no kidding!) That's how FA got that much powder in the cases. Forget the old nonsense about "balloon-head cases holding much more powder. The extra volume in a balloon head case is negligible. For more info, if you're a technician like I am, get this book. http://www.4570products.info/Loading-Cartridges-for-Original-45-70-Springfield-1.htm

[k8bor]

I've killed a lot of deer with the 405 gr. lee dead soft over 65 gr. bp. Good load for my 1895C.