Lyman or lee

[Oklahoma Rebel]

does anyone know which one has the larger diameter, the lyman dome style hollow base, or the lee drive keys, both 7/8ths and 1oz, preferably 1oz. thanks, oh and do they both work well in smoothbores?

[KrakenFan69]

No experience with them but was looking at picking up a Lee mold. Word on the street seems to be that the 7/8 oz are easier to get decent accuracy out of. Again, I have no personal experience with them however.

Kraken Fan #69

[vzerone]

I haven't owned the Lyman, but have the LEE. As you know the LEE requires a shot power piston (believe they recommend WW) to sabot it. The Lyman on the other hand, if I'm correct, is just a smooth slug with the rifling like Foster rifled slugs and it is sized to fit the shotgun barrel bore. With that said the Lyman would be the larger diameter.

Like said I have the LEE and I get mediocre accuracy out of it in a smootbore and also a smoothbore with rifled choke.

[KrakenFan69]

Which Lee are you using? 1 oz or 7/8 oz? I'm running the Lyman 525 gn Sabot. Shoots well out of a smooth bore. Ordered a Russian mold to see if I can improve upon what I'm currently using and was thinking of picking up a Lee 7/8oz too.

I have, issues. you might say...

Kraken Fan #69

[vzerone]

Which Lee are you using? 1 oz or 7/8 oz? I'm running the Lyman 525 gn Sabot. Shoots well out of a smooth bore. Ordered a Russian mold to see if I can improve upon what I'm currently using and was thinking of picking up a Lee 7/8oz too.

I have, issues. you might say...

Kraken Fan #69

If you were asking me I was using the 7/8 oz LEE slug.

[Hogtamer]

I sure have had better experience with the 7/8 lee. Fit for a particular gun is everything though and prolly require several wad combos before you find the magic.

[longbow]

"the lyman dome style hollow base"

If you mean the Lyman Foster slug don't waste your money on that mould. Even if it shoots okay, which it probably won't, the slug is so thin it just flattens out in a pancake. I guess if all you are doing is punching paper or slapping gongs it doesn't matter much but the Lyman Fosters tend to cast way undersize. My mould casts at 0.705" so way under bore size. If cast from soft lead they bump up but accuracy is horrible.

I'd go with the Lee Drive Key slugs or Lyman sabot slug... or plain old round balls.

YMMV

Longbow

[KrakenFan69]

If you were asking me I was using the 7/8 oz LEE slug.


I was, thanks.

Kraken Fan #69

[Oklahoma Rebel]

I was thinking of gluing the plastic over powder wads that you find in shot loads to the back of a round ball to help with stabilization, as far as the lyman goes, I was talking about their smooth sided domed slug, I haven't seen a mold for a rifled slug in their catalogue. with the roundball load, I was thinking of getting the lee 690 RB mold and using rrubbing compound on a cast ball to get the mold to throw at about 732, or whatever I measure my bore to be ( smooth bore)

[longbow]

I think you'd be better off to get a Lyman 0.735" ball mould than trying to lap out a 0.690" mould the fit the bore.

You can also get Jeff Tanner moulds in any diameter you want. I don't have any of Jeff's moulds but they are quite affordable and highly thought of by many it seems.

Also, gluing stuff to balls doesn't work so well in my experience. They are round and smooth and when the pressure hits the glue it compresses and shears around that smooth surface.

Best results I've had is to drill the ball then put a short wood screw in so the head sticks out 1/4" or so then slide that into a lubed form and squirt hot melt glue in to make an attached wad slug. The screw keeps the glue wad attached.

For bore diameter these have to be paper patched. Works pretty well for 0.662" or 0.678" balls in should too.

Hardest thing is getting consistent glue skirts without bubbles or uneven base.

Poor man's injection moulding!

Longbow

[Oklahoma Rebel]

thanks longbow, I've not heard of jeff tanner, but I saw the 735 rb's in lymans catalogue and they were 92$, too rich for my blood. I will check him out. in your experience, does a plain roundball do well ( in a 28" smoothbore w/cyl choke)? what kind of groups do you get at 50 yards? and with the plastic wad screwed on the back?

[Oklahoma Rebel]

do you know how much their 30$ GBD mold turns out to be?

[longbow]

In my experience 0.735" RB over a hard card wad column with a plastic gas seal over the powder produces pretty consistent 3" to 4" groups at 50 yards for sure and possibly 10 to 20 yards further still being pretty good. By 100 yards it is a different story. Sometimes nice tight groups but more often, there are fliers and some pretty far.

My take is that round balls pick up random spins which get worse with distance causing the "curve ball" effect.

So far I've had excellent results using 0.662" RB's and 0.678" RB's in shotcups (0.662" patched to good fit) and the 0.735" RB's. With good loads all produce groups around 4" or less at 50 yards.

I got best result using a hard card wad column under the 0.735" RB's and for the 0.662" and 0.678" RB's a 16 or 20 ga. nitro card wad or two in the bottom of the shotcup then a small scoop of COW on top, then the ball.

I have not had any success trying to screw wads to the balls... in fact very poor results. The cushion leg collapses and gas leaks around the screw.

I have had pretty good success using round ball drilled for a wood screw, screw into ball with head up about 1/4" then put in a lubed tube form with screw head up then filled with hot melt glue. This makes a not bad AQ clone but getting consistent tail wads is the trick. I've had some that shot very well but often there are bubbles or trailing edges are a little rough then they do not fly so well. This is with 0.662" or 0.678" RB's and for use in shotcups.

Unfortunately, Lee doesn't make 0.662". 0.678" or 0.735" RB moulds. They do make a 0.690" RB mould but that is one I have failed with. Too small naked and too large for shotcups I can find. I always get pinched petals and poor accuracy with 0.690" RB's. Some have had success and BPI publishes 0.690" RB data for use with their shotcup. Haven't tried those.

Donut wads might also work for 0.690" ball and again, I have not tried donut wads. I tend to use the 0.678" balls in shotcups because it is easy and works.

Some have commented on gluing wads to balls but again, my experience is that hot melt glue does not stick well to lead unless the lead is pre-heated. Even then balls have curved surfaces and the pressure of firing causes the glue to extrude around the surface of the ball shearing any bond that may have been. I've seen this with flat base and even hollow base slugs with an extend glue tail wad... the entire glue wad lets go of the hollow cavity and falls out. Put a screw in and you're good.

I'd say to go with the Lee Drive Key slug in 7/8 or 1 oz. as a simple and inexpensive choice. I have not tried the 7/8 oz. slug yet but as you see above, several people say the 7/8 oz. slug is more accurate than the 1 oz. slug. Its hard to go wrong for about $25.00 for a mould that makes slugs to fit shotcups.

Longbow

[Oklahoma Rebel]

yeah, I think that might be the simplest way to start with slugs, thanks!

[megasupermagnum]

I'll second the .735" round ball mold, and mine is from JT molds, very good quality and price. 3"-4" is about what I was getting from my smooth bore. I would start with round balls, they are fun. You will be pleasantly surprised, at least for me they have been as accurate as most foster slugs. In rifled barrels they have been even better. I wouldn't mess around with gluing or screwing wads to a round ball.

[Oklahoma Rebel]

so longbow, do you mean powder, plastic wad(over powder, not shotcup) hard card column (felt? cardboard?) then ball, star crimp? or roll? and do you shoot the 1oz lee? thanks guys

[longbow]

Yup! I cut the gas seals off some Pacific Verelite Blue wads for over powder seal (better to buy gas seals if available) then hard card wad column to set the ball at proper height (1/2" hard card wads from BPI) with 1/8" nitro card wads as required then the ball and roll crimp.

I tried plastic gas seal and fibre wads, shotcups with petals cut off and a few other things but the hard card wad column worked best for me.

I have a 1 oz. Lee mould but have not shot it much. I got mediocre results with it but didn't play much. First time out I got approx. 6" groups at 50 yards. I made some tube forms then tried some with hot melt glue tail wads next time and got improved accuracy but still not as good as my round ball loads. That's all I've shot them. My home made slug moulds and round balls did better so I didn't bother with the Lee anymore. I'll try again when I get back to slug shooting (soon I hope!).

I have generally roll crimped slugs.

Don't go shooting a 0.735" RB through anything but cylinder bore or rifled barrel though! It might be okay through improved cylinder but I'd hesitate trying it myself.

I bought a 0.715" ball mould to try in my Browning BPS buck & slug barrel without mic'ing the muzzle first. DOH! It seems to have a tight I/C choke at 0.710". I asked BPI what they thought of wheelweight 0.715" balls through that choke and they said Brownings are tough shotguns... it should be okay. Should be wasn't good enough for me.

One day I'll get an old beater with a choke and see what happens with 0.715" balls and 0.735" balls. Of course it will be tied to a tire and I'll be a ways back with a string to the trigger! If the choke survives a dozen 0.715" balls through it I'll believe it is good. Then I'll try 0.735" balls.

The old Paradox guns apparently squeezed 0.740" slugs down to 0.690" at the lands and they were not much if any thicker barrels than a standard shotgun from what I understand so it may be doable.

Anyway, back to 0.735" RB's... I quit using them because I didn't like making up wad columns and I was a bit concerned that one day one might wind up in a full choked gun. I find the 0.678" RB's in shotcup shoot as well and are easier to load... and are just over an ounce so lots of load data available.

Longbow

[edp2k]

Longbow,
> I find the 0.678" RB's in shotcup shoot as well and are easier to load.

Could you tell us exactly what shotcup/wad you are using?

I dis-assembled some Walmart 100 pack cheap Fed 7 1/2 shot shells and the 0.678" (actually mine are 0.675") roundballs
fit well in the shot cup and slid down and out the bore of my gun perfectly, with no stiff restriction.
The diameter of the ball in cup was 0.730.

However, when I dis-assembled some cheap Rem shells (black plastic, low silver colored metal base, I think #6 or #8, 1 or 1/18 oz.,
probably cheap chain store promo loads)
the shotcup had a vertical rib on the inside of each petal and the overall outside diameter of the ball in the cup was so
big it would not start down the bore when firmly pushed forward from the chamber.

Do you use Win wads/shotcups, Fed 12S3 (pink), or what? :)

Thanks!
edp2k :)

[Retumbo]

I had good results with Lee 1oz @ 50yards

http://i.imgur.com/2qfUUrQ.jpg

[Oklahoma Rebel]

does the roll crimp last longer than a star crimp with repeated loadings?, also, to me it sounds best to just get a cyl choke and use the 735's, but if you had good results with the 678"RB in a wad that would allow me to use my imp. cyl choke I would think ( because the extra give of the plastic). I also was looking at accurate molds for when I get a rifled slug only barrel, and found the #73-565S design to be appealing, although I think I would have him add a middle rib and a slight dome front, that should bring it up to 600gr. have any of you tried any of the #73 accurate molds in a rifled barrel?

[megasupermagnum]

I've been shooting the 73-770s with promising results, but I'm not quite there yet. I've found it to be challenging to lube with Canaruba red, but I think a softer lube should work better. Accuracy wise, I've shot a few 2" 5 shot CTC groups at 50 yards, but average closer to 3". 100 yards is where I've been having trouble, and I need to play with the wad stack more to find the one that works. 73-680C is about what you describe for your changes. As for roll vs fold crimp, I think it's a draw. I prefer roll crimps when I can, but I fold crimp all my round ball loads. I personally would feel better fold crimping those lee slugs as well, there just isn't anything for a roll crimp to grab on. Another thing is that you often have to reshape the case mouth of a roll crimp to reload it with a slug. This is another benefit of round balls, is that they go in so easy. The full bore slugs like the accurate 73-770s are an absolute bear to load in anything but a new or trimmed hull.

[longbow]

I use my MEC Sizemaster when loading slugs and the wad fingers do the heavy lifting even with full bore slugs They generally go in pretty easy.

Can't say whether fold crimp or roll crimp allows more hull reloads as I kinda mixed mine some and most of my hulls are toast now. I have to buy some new hulls and use the old ones for short hull loads.

I wondered about roll crimp with big round nose slugs and balls but so far I have had no problems. I figured the roll crimp would be hard on petals when loading round balls in shotcups but again, so far no indications of wrinkled petals. I can't recall if I roll crimped or fold crimped my Lee 1 oz. slugs so no help there.

I roll crimped the 0.735" RB's and again. no problem where I figured the ball might run over the crimp. Doesn't appear to.

Wads... I use mostly Winchester pink, yellow or white depending. I can't recall the numbers now but can take a look. They all work well depending on payload. Seems to me the pink are thinner but they are short little wads too. All are a fairly tough plastic.

Pacific Verelite have also worked well for me. I bought some old ones from a local guy a few years ago. Not sure if they are still available new or not. Not around here they aren't anyway.

Winchester AA Red wads did not work well for me at all with any slugs or round balls. The plastic is quite soft and petals tend to pinch off or distort.

I've had mediocre results with Claybusters which are Winchester clones. They seem okay with shot but not so good with slugs. I haven't checked petal thickness compared to Winchester wads. Others say Federal wads work well but we don't have any locally.

And again, I use a 1/8" nitro card wad (or two) under RB's in shotcups and a small scoop of COW on that to make a nice seat for the ball. That all helps keep the plastic wad from extruding around the ball, and depending on shotcup depth, brings the ball up to good position for crimping.

I have not used any slugs in a rifled gun, only 0.735" RB's. That may change shortly as I am eyeballing rifled Remington 870's and Mossberg 500's. We'll see!

Longbow

PS: Forgot to answer... the wads I use are smooth inside. Remington RXP wads have (had? not sure if still available) ribs on the petals. Some others may too. I do not use ribbed petal wads for slugs.

[Oklahoma Rebel]

the cream of wheat is a good idea for the RB's, do you think it is needed/helpful with the lee 7/8's slugs? also, has anyone compared the lee slugs in a smoothbore vs. a smoothbore with a rifled choke? my barrel is 28" long, does anyone know how long the rifled chokes extend out of the muzzle? I would imagine they would need to be at lest a few inches long to even work.? -Travis

[longbow]

You do not need the COW with HB slugs... especially the drive key slugs though a nitro card wad under the slug is still a good idea in my opinion. I have had wads push up around the drive key distorting the wad some. I gather that is the idea for rifled gun... to provide a positive grip to rotate the slug in the rifling but is not necessary or desirable in a smoothbore. Even in a rifled gun if the wad distorts too much it woul dbe a bad thing. I have to guess that the Lee recommended wads are suitable for the application though so that woul dbe the place to start ~ with Lee recommended (or other user recommended) data.

If using a typical Foster style HB slug (open HB with no drive key) then yes, I would use a filler but more likely hot melt glue, silicone sealer or similar to help support the skirt and mostly to keep the wad from pushing into the hollow base.

There are a variety of rifled choke tubes available from same length as standard tubes to extended tubes. I have not tried any but some report improved accuracy with some slugs. My complaint with the modern rifled choke tubes is that they are rifled with fast twists of 1:36" +/- a bit to suit sub caliber sabot slugs where a bore size round ball or "square" slug wants something more like 1:120". They also have very shallow rifling. Both are detrimental to spinning a speeding slug up to twist rate in 3" to 5" of rifled choke tube. Not saying they don't or can't work, just that they are not optimal for bore size stubby slugs or balls.

Most shotgun manufacturers have branded rifled choke tubes plus there are Hastings, Colonial, Carlsons and others:

http://www.browning.com/products/shooting-accessories/choke-tubes/express-sabot-rifled-choke-tube.html
https://www.opticsplanet.com/carlson-s-rifled-choke-tubes-12-and-20-gauge.html
https://www.hastingsdistribution.com/index.php?l=product_list&c=30
http://www.colonialchokeandtool.com/colonial-beretta-benelli-rifled-choke-tubes/

There is no shortage of brands or types, just have to get one that fits your guns choke tube threads or ream and tap to suit the rifled tube you want.

Longbow