.30 Mauser and 7.62x25 take the same reloading dies?

[DonMountain]

Many years ago I purchased a Mauser "Broomhandle" in .30 Mauser, and reloaded converted .223 brass with a set of .30 Mauser dies and some reaming. I also bought a CZ 52 in 7.62x25 and always wondered if cases for this round could also be reloaded with the same .30 Mauser dies (RCBS). From a recent thread discussing these two rounds I have been considering purchasing the proper Starline brass and getting back into shooting these two firearms, knowing that they take different pressure loads to operate correctly.

[NoAngel]

The internal dimensions of the brass are different but the outside are pretty much the same. They are NOT the same though.
You could probably get away with firing .30 tokarev cases with .30 mauser loads in a .30 mauser. You will regret the opposite as pressures are WAY higher on the tokarev.

Coincidentally, the WONDERFUL .30 Badger is made by using either of those two die sets. I load mine with a set of Lee 7,62x25 dies.



Please be careful keeping these two rounds together. They should be clearly marked and stored separate. The C96 is a great pistol but could easily turn into a frag grenade with a Tokarev load. Maybe not....but it ain't worth the gamble.

[vzerone]

I have a set of LEE dies for the 7.62x39 Tokarev. With that said I have more then one pistol in this caliber and they are different brands and country origins. Ammo loaded with the LEE dies doesn't fit all of them. I understand LEE dies in this caliber as having a 30 Mauser sizing die. I know when you have all three of dies, that being the 7.62 Tokarev, 30 Mauser, and 30 Luger dies from LEE that all three share some componants that are marked 30 Mauser. Of course the 30 Luger sizer die is different from the other two.

You're absolutely never shoot Tokarev ammo or Tokarev loads in 30 Mauser brass in the any pistol chambered for the 30 Mauser

[Der Gebirgsjager]

I own a Broomhandle with a small gouge in the chamber wall. It would never fire more than 2 consecutive shots before jamming due to the brass extruding into the gouge so solidly that extractor would hop over the fired cartridge's rim, leaving the case in the chamber and the next cartridge would jam up behind it. Had to punch the fired case out with a cleaning rod. I received various opinions on what to do about the gouge, but none of the advice seemed practical. Then I acquired a 7.62.25mm Tokarev and got the idea to try some of the surplus steel cased Chinese ammo in the Broomhandle. I utilized an inertia bullet puller and dumped the powder, then reloaded them with a Broomhandle charge from a manual. Eureka! It ripped off two 10-round stripper clips of reloads without a bobble. The steel cases just had a shiny spot at the location of the gouge, but no discernable extrusion of the metal. Still own the pistol, haven't fired it for years now. I used Lee .30 Mauser dies to reseat the pulled bullets.
209004

[Outpost75]

The 7.62x25 Tokarev chamber is about .03" shorter than the 7.62 Mauser.

Given wartime sloppy tolerances in the PPsh41 and PPsh43 it probably doesn't make a difference, but Starline warns against using .30 Mauser brass in the 762x25 Tokarev pistols because the case mouth impinges against the origin of rifling in the shorter chamber and tears case necks off. This has been my experience shooting WRA WW2-era .30 Mauser in my TT33.

[Mauser 98K]

well the LEE die set for 7.62 Tokarev has a die in it that is labeled 30LGR/MSR for 30 Luger/Mauser. so id say they are close enough for the die set to work for all three..

and what load did you use for the CZ-52? the listed data i got here in my Lyman #48 manual the max load using Unique will not function the action enough to eject with a 86gr FMJ. it will function enough to cock the action but not enough to eject the brass and strip another cartridge off the mag.. it seems like every manual i can find list the 30 Mauser and the 30 Tokarev as the same thing and they appear to be seriously downloaded and will not function the CZ like it should.

[vzerone]

The 7.62x25 Tokarev chamber is about .03" shorter than the 7.62 Mauser.

Given wartime sloppy tolerances in the PPsh41 and PPsh43 it probably doesn't make a difference, but Starline warns against using .30 Mauser brass in the 762x25 Tokarev pistols because the case mouth impinges against the origin of rifling in the shorter chamber and tears case necks off. This has been my experience shooting WRA WW2-era .30 Mauser in my TT33.

Yes I agree with what you are saying. I always like to have the correct brass or have other brass that is close, but sized in the appropiate die. In this case the LEE dies are too generic. I didn't want to pay RCBS what they want for their Tokarev dies. On a good number of my pistols the LEE sized stuff works, but then there are others that don't. I have one Tokarev that you can't load a fat enough bullet to agree with the grooves because the chamber neck is too tight. I just don't mess with that pistol much. I don't use any 30 Mauser brass in my 7.62x25 and in fact don't have any.

[Outpost75]

I use the Lee 7.62x25 dies with Starline brass, Federal 200 primer, 5.2-5.3 grs. Alliant Bullseye, Accurate 31-100T sized .311, runs in Cz52, TT33, PPsh41, PPsh43.

209627

[DonMountain]

Ok, Thanks everybody for your help on this matter. After doing some additional research I discovered in one of my own manuals, the Lyman "Cast Bullet Handbook" 4th Edition has on page 236 the title "7.62 Tokarev/30 Mauser". So, I guess from this information I can conclude that they are in fact the same size cases and use the same reloading dies. I have reloaded and fired the Mauser Broomhandle a long time ago when factory ammunition was available for it. And I purchased J-bullets for it. And I think I only paid $10 for it at a yard sale 40 years ago. So, if it blows up I guess it isn't any great loss. Although its an awful nice looking one that this elderly German couple's parents had brought from Germany with them before the war.

[vzerone]

Ok, Thanks everybody for your help on this matter. After doing some additional research I discovered in one of my own manuals, the Lyman "Cast Bullet Handbook" 4th Edition has on page 236 the title "7.62 Tokarev/30 Mauser". So, I guess from this information I can conclude that they are in fact the same size cases and use the same reloading dies. I have reloaded and fired the Mauser Broomhandle a long time ago when factory ammunition was available for it. And I purchased J-bullets for it. And I think I only paid $10 for it at a yard sale 40 years ago. So, if it blows up I guess it isn't any great loss. Although its an awful nice looking one that this elderly German couple's parents had brought from Germany with them before the war.

I believe we concluded here they are slightly different cases, but often you get away with using the same reloading dies. If you do a lengthly internets search on this matter you will find that many people have trouble doing that. I feel that in either cartridge if your pistol has a chamber cut on the mininum side that you may have problems. Remember that many of the pistols from for these two calibers are old and worn inaddition to being made many decades ago when tolerances weren't kept as close as today. The Broomhandle is a very old pistol. Some reloading die manufacturers have the dies sets for these two cartridges that are two different sets. Anyways the important thing to remember and do is do not load Tokarev level loads to fire in a 30 Mauser or use factory or military Tokarev ammo in 30 Mausers.

[Herb in Pa]

4.6 Grains of Titegroup with a 93 Grain cast boolit works well in my old warhorse..........I'm using 30 Mauser dies.

[MI2600]

When I was researching for dies for my C96s, I found a set that listed both calibers. I don't remember the company, but I believe I saw it on Midway. Anyway, I use reformed .223 brass and a set of Lee Tokarev dies for both (with the appropriate charge) without any problems.

[DangerousDave]

We have a WW1 broom handle and a Romanian Tokarev. I bought a set of dies for the Mauser cartridge because we think of it as the more valuable. I looked up the two cartridges in several of my manuals and chose a conservative load using AA#5 and a 110 grain cast boolit. I was pleasantly surprised to find the one load ran both pistols just fine. There were no undue pressure signs and no leading with good accuracy. That was the goal; one load to run them both without doing damage to either. We had some Mauser brass and purchased new starline Tokarev brass also. The broomhandle digests either while the Tokarev's shorter chamber chokes on the longer Mauser brass. My advice, for those that are looking for such, is be conservative and you should have lots of fun.

[GONRA]

GONRA's been there, done that.....
Years ago, measured lottsa of both - military mfg. cartridges. (Commecrials don't count.)

Authentic Tokarev cartridge case is maybe 1/2 mm shorter and head diameter is maybe .005 inch smaller.

This stuff CAN show up when using "all Mauser dies/cases" in Tokarev chambers. (Sticks!)
BUT MAYBE NOT - all depends how all the sloppy manufacturing tolerances +/- ADDED UP!

Would like to see an Offical Soviet Arsenal Tokarev cartridge print to compare to Mauser specs.

These days, its anybodies guess what commecial mfgs. do.
For wot its worth, Starline 7.62x25 mm brass (sold as Tokarev) functions perfectly in my CZ52's.

[Ed in North Texas]

GONRA's been there, done that.....
snip
These days, its anybodies guess what commecial mfgs. do.
For wot its worth, Starline 7.62x25 mm brass (sold as Tokarev) functions perfectly in my CZ52's.

I should hope so, Starline doesn't normally make errors in cartridge case production. The Czech vz52 pistol is chambered in 7.62x25mm because that was the Soviet standard military pistol cartridge and, by applied Soviet political pressure, the Non-Soviet Warsaw Pact (NSWP) standard pistol cartridge until replaced by the 9x18mm.

[vzerone]

This is from a Tokarve html.

Prior to the First World War, the 7.63×25mm Mauser C96 pistol gained in popularity worldwide. In 1908, the Tsarist army placed the C96 on a list of approved sidearms that officers could purchase at their own expense in lieu of carrying the Nagant M1895 revolver. Between 1914 and 1917, more Mauser pistols and ammunition were obtained as captured arms from German and Turkish forces. The Mauser and its cartridge were used on all fronts of the Russian Civil War and in the 1920s, during a period of relatively close cooperation between Soviet Russia and the Weimar Republic, the Red Army purchased batches of the smaller Bolo version as well as ammunition for use by its officers. Although a copy of the cartridge was being produced at the Podolsky Ammunition Factory, the Soviets eventually purchased a license and manufacturing equipment from DWM in Germany to produce the cartridge. In 1929, the Soviet Artillery Committee made a proposal to develop a domestic pistol chambered for the Mauser cartridge. After considerable research and development, it was decided that the "Model 1930 7.62 mm Pistol Cartridge," essentially the Mauser round with minor modifications, was to become the standard caliber for Soviet pistols and submachine guns. Early versions of the Vasily Degtyaryov-designed PPD-40 submachine gun were marked "For Mauser Cartridge Caliber 7.62 mm".

The dimensions there are a little different then what Wikipedia has. Here they are.

Specifications
Parent case 7.63×25mm Mauser
Bullet diameter 7.87 mm (0.310 in)
Neck diameter 8.48 mm (0.334 in)
Shoulder diameter 9.47 mm (0.373 in)
Base diameter 9.83 mm (0.387 in)
Rim diameter 9.96 mm (0.392 in)
Rim thickness 1.32 mm (0.052 in)
Case length 25.0 mm (0.98 in)
Overall length 34.0 mm (1.34 in)
Case capacity 1.04 cm3 (16.0 gr H2O)
Rifling twist 1:250 mm (1:10 inches)
Primer type Berdan or Boxer Small Pistol

Here is what Wikipedia has.

Specifications
Parent case 7.63×25mm Mauser
Bullet diameter 7.82 mm (0.308 in)
Neck diameter 8.49 mm (0.334 in)
Shoulder diameter 9.48 mm (0.373 in)
Base diameter 9.83 mm (0.387 in)
Rim diameter 9.95 mm (0.392 in)
Rim thickness 1.32 mm (0.052 in)
Case length 25.00 mm (0.984 in)
Overall length 35.20 mm (1.386 in)
Case capacity 1.09 cm3 (16.8 gr H2O)

Not much difference, but never the less different.

Also the site lists the rifling twist at 1 in 10 or 1:250mm and Wiki lists it at 1 in 9.45 or 1:240mm

So in the Russians did copy the 30 Mauser cartridge pretty much.

[DonMountain]

For my Christmas wish list to my wife I asked for 100 Starline 7.62x25 cases and 100 Starline 30 Mauser cases in order to keep cartridges for both of them separate. I see that they are both available at Grafs Reloading. And I plan to use the 30 Mauser dies that I already have to see if both the Broomhandle and the CZ 52 will digest the resized cases, with different loads for each pistol.

[DonMountain]

The 7.62x25 Tokarev chamber is about .03" shorter than the 7.62 Mauser.

Given wartime sloppy tolerances in the PPsh41 and PPsh43 it probably doesn't make a difference, but Starline warns against using .30 Mauser brass in the 762x25 Tokarev pistols because the case mouth impinges against the origin of rifling in the shorter chamber and tears case necks off. This has been my experience shooting WRA WW2-era .30 Mauser in my TT33.

Ok, with brand-new Starline brass in both 7.62x25 Tokarev and 30 Mauser, I measured a bunch of both of them and have come to a conclusion as far as case length:

7.62x25 Tokarev = 0.959"
30 Mauser = 0.982"

And 25 mm converts to 0.984"

So, I have decided to use this dimension as the trim-to length, and reload both of them using the 30 Mauser dies adjusting the bullet seating die for the two different rounds, and of course using different powder loads for the two different loads. The different base markings of course will allow me to keep the loads separate. And that was what I was initially after. Now, has anybody had any luck with lead projectiles in both of these rounds and what were your loads?

[vzerone]

February issue of Reloader has an article on the 30 Mauser and goes back to the history of what the Russians did to come up with the 7.62x25. Basically the article says they are essentially the same cartridge..hmmmmmm. I'm just reporting not agreeing or disagreeing.

[DonMountain]

February issue of Reloader has an article on the 30 Mauser and goes back to the history of what the Russians did to come up with the 7.62x25. Basically the article says they are essentially the same cartridge..hmmmmmm. I'm just reporting not agreeing or disagreeing.

So, did the article say why the 7.62x25 isn't really a 7.62x24?

[GONRA]

Guys, its the HEAD DIAMETER that really counts.
GONRA knows authentic 7.63 mm Mauser cases can stick in 7.62 mm Tokarev chambers.

Gotta hava pyle of both specimens (1930's, WWII era) from yer catridge collection to measure.
You can also prove almost anything you want if you grab individual sloppy manufacture factory WW II specimens
and some post war commercial specimens designed to "chamber in anything".

[DonMountain]

Guys, its the HEAD DIAMETER that really counts.
GONRA knows authentic 7.63 mm Mauser cases can stick in 7.62 mm Tokarev chambers.

Gotta hava pyle of both specimens (1930's, WWII era) from yer catridge collection to maasure.
You can also prove almost anything you want if you grab individual sloppy manufacture factory WW II specimens
and some post war commercial specimens designed to "chamber in anything".

Well, I agree completely with you GONRA as my CZ-52 is just a cheap Chinese made pistol with a notch for a site in the back and a pin in the front for a site. So it fits into the "sloppy manufacture factory WW II specimens" and is definately not a precise, long range pistol like the well engineered and precision manufactured Mauser C-96 with a leaf site having a range all the way up to 1000 meters. So, this year I am rushing to reload some ammo for the 30 Mauser and hope to get a shot or two at a deer across those soy bean fields at maybe several hundred meters. Because I am confident it will do it.

[Woodsroad]

Well, I agree completely with you GONRA as my CZ-52 is just a cheap Chinese made pistol...
Well, that was a thread killer.