30-30 Questions

[JasonG]

Hi all and thank you in advance for any help with my questions. First off I am a new member here and this is my first post. I have read and gathered information here in the past however as a non-member.

Breifly I’ll say that I don’t have years of experience in casting bullets but I do have have some. Until last year I was only casting round ball for my various muzzleloaders. Now I cast 45’s and 38’s for my competitive pistols and it is that work that has lead me to here.

I own a 1972 Winchester Model 94 in .30-30 Win. I have never cast bullets for center fire rifle before. I do not want to use a gas check - I know nothing of them and don’t want to take the time to instal them and such. I have hopes of casting a 150gr bullet and using IMR 4064 as I have plenty of it - for hunting loads accurate out to 100 yards. Is this doable with the powder I have? Can it be done without a gas check? I don’t have a mold yet so if my bullet weight needs to change that’s doable. I have a lot of 4064 because I use it in my 7x57mm that I load for but I use jacketed bullets in it. I’d like to use cast for the 30-30.

[ShooterAZ]

Hi Jason,

Welcome to Cast Boolits. First off, no you don't need a gas check. You will most likely find however that you'll get better accuracy/performance using one. I assume that you will be sizing your boolits anyway, so the addition of a gas check during the sizing/lubing process is no big deal. Without a gas check you will be limiting your velocity to somewhere in the neighborhood of 1600fps +/-. 4064 powder probably wouldn't be the ideal powder to use for this velocity range in the 30-30. I recommend the Lee C309-150F or Lee C309-170F molds if you are just starting out and are on a budget. I hope this helps.

[725]

Welcome aboard! Agree w/ above. Gas check are not necessary, but would improve your performance from a .30-30. If you go without a GC, I would probably look into a slightly heavier boolit, with harder consistency, going slower. The 311041 was specifically designed for the .30-30 and is a proven winner. NOE has some beautiful clones of that boolit. Hopefully, Larry Gibson will chime in and you'll get some very authoritative information. Best of luck.

[JasonG]

Thank you 725 and ShooterAZ. More info to help: I currently don’t own a luber/sizer and I so I size my bullets on a Lee single stage press using a Lee push through sizing die and I tumble lube my bullets using Lee Liquid Allox. Thanks again. Perhaps I need to shop for a different powder. Problem is I have eight pounds of 4064! :)

[ShooterAZ]

The Lee push through sizer is perfectly capable of seating your gas checks, no problems there, or with using LLA.

[Wayne Smith]

Look at the boolit design. Boolits designed for gas checks tend to be much more accurate with than without them. Boolits designed flat based are designed to be used without gas checks. If you want to go relatively high velocity you will want a GC design and put them on. It is not a problem putting them on, just do it with your fingers and tap your boolit on the bench before you size. Job done.

[chutesnreloads]

Suggest using a gas check just to save yourself some headache.The Lee molds are cheap and you can always try those without the checks.

[Larry Gibson]

"I have hopes of casting a 150gr bullet and using IMR 4064 as I have plenty of it - for hunting loads accurate out to 100 yards. Is this doable with the powder I have? Can it be done without a gas check?"

Sure...."it can be done" .....just that you won't hit anything is all. By the time you get 4064 up to a pressure, even with a Dacron filler, the velocity will be way above what a PB'd cast bullet can handle for accuracy. GC's are easily installed, the time needed is inconsequential compared to the frustration from lack of performance without them and some are not that expensive. The 311041 style bullet (Lyman, Lee or NOE) are your best bets. Also if you get some Bullseye powder you can use the 311041s sans the GC over 5 to 5.5 gr for a plinking small game load.

[rintinglen]

I have loaded thousands of 30-30 rounds, and a great many were loaded with plain base, but only light loads were used: 8 grains of Unique or Herco with a 95 grain 311-245. My observation is that the smaller the caliber, the harder it is to get plain based boollits to shoot well at hunting velocities. However, you put a gas check on, which is easy to do with your present equipment and you'll be hunting deer for the cost of a box or two of factory ammunition and shooting more, much more for the same money.
For your purposes, I will join the chorus and recommend either the 311-041 or the Lee 150 or 170 grain boolits. Start the gas check by hand, then insert the boolit base first up into the sizer and slowly bring the ram up while you guide the boolit onto the center of the ram and then just push it through. Repeat til you run out of boolits, gas checks, time or patience. Tumble lube again, then dry and load. 28-30 grains of your 4064 should give an accurate, game worthy load.

[RogerDat]

Those semi flat nosed bullet designs such as the Lee 170 F work well with feeding the bullet base first through the Lee push through sizer to seat the gas checks.

Since the ram is pushing on the nose a pointy bullet will tend to get a tiny flat spot on the tip. Doesn't hurt anything but if the bullet is already flat nosed as it should be for a tubular magazine it is easier to guide in and already has a flat spot for the ram to push against.

The amount of additional time and work to add gas checks is minor, the cost is ~ $25 per 1,000 so no great expense. At least that has been my experience with the 8x57 mm and .223 cast boolits. Well those little .223 buggers are a bit of a hassle to handle being so small. but no more so than just sizing them is.

[ShooterAZ]

You don't need to feed them base first through the Lee sizer. The gas checks will seat just fine sizing/seating nose-first.

[John Boy]

The gas checks will seat just fine sizing/seating nose-first. But if the bullets are spitzers doing this way, the bullets end up having a metplat

[ShooterAZ]

Agreed, but I don’t think he wants to load spitzers for his Win 94 30/30. Flat or RN only.


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[JasonG]

Thank you very much everybody. It seems like I’ll be toying with some gaschecks after all once I settle on a mold. Thank you very much to everyone’s input. It is appreciated and was very helpful.

[Gewehr-Guy]

When you order your mould, don't forget to get a Lyman M-die or NOE neck expander plug for a Lee neck exp. die. They insure the bullet goes in straight without shaving lead or further reducing the bullet dia. because of a too tight neck. I've had great luck with the Lee 170 mould, at $22 a great bargain.

[dverna]

You have received good advice about using gas checks.
3031 may be a better choice than 4064.

[Lonegun1894]

When you order your mould, don't forget to get a Lyman M-die or NOE neck expander plug for a Lee neck exp. die. They insure the bullet goes in straight without shaving lead or further reducing the bullet dia. because of a too tight neck. I've had great luck with the Lee 170 mould, at $22 a great bargain.

You beat me to it. I use the Lee Universal Expander, and it works just fine. But as long as you use something to expand the case mouth to prevent shaving, it makes life much easier.

[KenH]

You have received good advice about using gas checks.
3031 may be a better choice than 4064.

Listen to the man - 4064 is NOT a good powder for cast with 30-30, just not enough pressure to get a good clean burn. Pick up a lb of 3031 and you'll be MUCH happier.... and GCs. Yes, you WILL need an expander die.

[JasonG]

What size sizing die should I buy? I could slug my bore and find out I guess...

[quail4jake]

Pound slug the throat and fit to the throat diameter. Check out LBT, Veral Smith, he can send you slugs and instruction on how to do it.

[JasonG]

Pound slug the throat and fit to the throat diameter. Check out LBT, Veral Smith, he can send you slugs and instruction on how to do it.

Not easy to do on a Model 94....

[Lonegun1894]

Very easy. Just measure the inside of the neck of a case fired in your rifle. And as said above, 3031 is excellent!

[Edward]

When you order your mould, don't forget to get a Lyman M-die or NOE neck expander plug for a Lee neck exp. die. They insure the bullet goes in straight without shaving lead or further reducing the bullet dia. because of a too tight neck. I've had great luck with the Lee 170 mould, at $22 a great bargain. Got the Lee 150 and 170 gr they both work great in either Win 94 /or Marlin ! Hunting I use the 170gr and squirrels hate the 150gr :bigsmyl2:

[Texas by God]

I'm very happy with the Lee C309FP and IMR 3031. I use thinned Lee Alox and the Lee push through sizer .309". I'm using it in two very different 30-30s and performance is great in both.

[Retumbo]

I'm very happy with the Lee C309FP and IMR 3031. I use thinned Lee Alox and the Lee push through sizer .309". I'm using it in two very different 30-30s and performance is great in both.

I agree.

[oldblinddog]

Try this: http://www.accuratemolds.com/bullet_detail.php?bullet=31-180Q-D.png
209029
209030
The group is 5 shots at 50 yards. The load was recommended by Larry. For your 94 you probably want to back off to 25 grains and work back up. This is sized 0.311" and lubed with Carnauba Red, with Hornady checks. Winchester case and WLR primers. It is about 2000 fps.

[ShooterAZ]

I size to .311 in my Win M94's, and lube with BAC. I also use Hornady copper checks, and I use the Lee Universal neck expander. I don't really see the the need here to do a pound cast, or to even slug the bore. Of course it's your option to do so, but if sized to .310 or .311 you're good to go. .311 has given me my best accuracy.

[JasonG]

I size to .311 in my Win M94's, and lube with BAC. I also use Hornady copper checks, and I use the Lee Universal neck expander. I don't really see the the need here to do a pound cast, or to even slug the bore. Of course it's your option to do so, but if sized to .310 or .311 you're good to go. .311 has given me my best accuracy.

In casting and loading for my 38’s and 45’s I’ve seen a difference in how the ammunition performs when trying different sizing diameters. Doing some quick checking I see the “standard” or typical bullet diameter for a .30-30 Win cartridge is .308 - this of course is coming from some jacketed bullet data.

So when making our own projectiles, we have more control over the composition of the ammunition - one aspect in this case being bullet diameter. If the bullet is too wide, pressure can increase. If the bullet is too narrow performance could suffer. If it’s too wide will I have issues chambering the cartridge or in other words will I have issues closing the action on a live round?

[ShooterAZ]

Sizing at .310 or .311, and seated properly, you "shouldn't" have any problems with chambering. You need to make that sure you remove the "bell" from when you expand the case neck. I use a Lee FCD to do this, with a very light crimp. Your rifle will tell you, but the Lee 150 or 170 are designed for the 30-30, as is the 311041. We generally want to go at least .002 over, so .310 or .311 won't cause pressure issues.

[largom]

What size sizing die should I buy? I could slug my bore and find out I guess...

I would shoot the boolits "as cast " IF a cartridge will chamber with NO pressure. Seat gas check with over-sized die then lube.

[Soundguy]

Hi all and thank you in advance for any help with my questions. First off I am a new member here and this is my first post. I have read and gathered information here in the past however as a non-member.

Breifly I’ll say that I don’t have years of experience in casting bullets but I do have have some. Until last year I was only casting round ball for my various muzzleloaders. Now I cast 45’s and 38’s for my competitive pistols and it is that work that has lead me to here.

I own a 1972 Winchester Model 94 in .30-30 Win. I have never cast bullets for center fire rifle before. I do not want to use a gas check - I know nothing of them and don’t want to take the time to instal them and such. I have hopes of casting a 150gr bullet and using IMR 4064 as I have plenty of it - for hunting loads accurate out to 100 yards. Is this doable with the powder I have? Can it be done without a gas check? I don’t have a mold yet so if my bullet weight needs to change that’s doable. I have a lot of 4064 because I use it in my 7x57mm that I load for but I use jacketed bullets in it. I’d like to use cast for the 30-30.

IMHO.. I'd go gas check.. you are sizing anyway.. and that's when you would check it. I just think you can maximize your performance with that .

[blikseme300]

Jason, PM on the way.

[Bill*B]

Welcome to the wonderful, arcane world of cast rifle bullets. I would strongly urge you - DO use a gas check! Plain base loads are for the "post graduate" caster, with several years of experience. Plain based bullets will guarantee frustration for the novice. To start, just get a "standard" gas check mold like the Lyman #311291, and load it with "standard" mid range charges - any Lyman handbook will have these. Then have fun! Don't expect immediate success. Rifles are a little more demanding than pistols. BUT - as time goes by, and you gain experience, your results WILL improve, and then your confidence will soar. The .30-30 is a GREAT cast bullet cartridge, and you couldn't start with a better platform. Best of luck.

[yeahbub]

JasonG, welcome to your new endeavor of cast rifle boolits. It opens the door to a lot of options. My experiences agree with the vast majority of what's been posted, particularly the use of gas checks. The increase in performance afforded by their use renders their inconvenience a minor consideration. They can be dispensed with for velocities under 1800 fps or so, depending on how your 94 acts. Once you get into this, you can experiment with and without to see what the differences are and whether they matter for your intended application. When loading cast with Alliant 2400 or other pistol powders (Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook), they're usually not necessary, but for general purpose full power hunting loads, they're the way to go, and use a good lube for the velocities you intend. As for the correct sizing diameter, at least .001 over groove diameter. Many go more than this due to the chamber/throat conditions in their rifles and get impressive results, but the warnings you see about chambering without resistance are real. Some years ago I helped a fellow pressure lap his '94 and it did exquisitely well with Lyman's 150gr 311466 w/gas check when sized to .309 diameter (We flattened the noses on those in a Lyman 450 sizer/luber for safety in the mag tube). With the 180gr boolit I saw suggested, propellants faster than 4064 may work better, but that weight may well cork up 4064 enough to get to the velocities you want. Since you have the 4064, it might be worth a try.

There's another option that hasn't yet been mentioned which could obviate the need for gas checks, eliminate the possibility of leading, increase the velocity limit with cast to more than the .30-30 can produce and reduce the need for tertiary support equipment, and that is paper patching, the original bullet jacket - and you don't need a special paper patch mold for it either. I patch most of my rifle calibers these days and I use conventional molds. They work very well in .30 cal's and are easy to do. If you'd like to give it a try, I and numerous others will give you a hand with it. There's two paper patch forums on this site with volumes of info on the art. Bare cast or paper patch, I wish you success.

[plainsman456]

Howdy.

I use 150 grain boolits in my 3 30-30's and i do use a gas check.
I have not tried IMR-4064 with cast but have used IMR-3031.
The checks are not hard to seat and after you come up with a system it will not be noticed.
Good luck

[claude]

Try this: http://www.accuratemolds.com/bullet_...=31-180Q-D.png

YMMV, but that bullet will not work in any model 94 I have ever had, my 94's require a bore rider diameter no larger than .301 (and .301 is iffy)where the bullet steps down from .311. This is due to the extremely short lead winnies use. Any bore rider above .301 engages the riflings before the cartridge seats in the chamber and the lever will not close. Other rifles, it may be fine, just not an off the shelf model 94.
It is a dandy looking bullet though.

[oldblinddog]

That nose was designed around the 7.62x51 but it works exceedingly well in the chamber of the 788 which has a throat, unlike your 94. Tom will make the nose whatever size you need it to be. As you can see in the pic the bullet is seated right to the edge of the step down. That is to accomodate the magazine on the 788.

[claude]

@OBD

Tom does indeed do excellent work, I have several of his moulds and they are top notch.

Have you hunted with this bullet? It looks like a meat maker for sure.

[oldblinddog]

I have hunted, I just haven't harvested yet. I had a shot on a little spike a couple of weeks ago but let him walk. May get a chance tomorrow. We'll see.

[claude]

I have hunted, I just haven't harvested yet. I had a shot on a little spike a couple of weeks ago but let him walk. May get a chance tomorrow. We'll see.

Best of luck!!!

[waco]

This is my got to 30-30 bullet in my 94
http://noebulletmolds.com/NV/product_info.php?cPath=30_319&products_id=512

[oldblinddog]

Best of luck!!!

Thank you! Was working today and problems are making tomorrow iffy now, but if not tomorrow I have some time later this week. If she makes meat, I will definitely post a report.