New project gun ... Danish M1867 Rolling Block ...

[Reverend Al]

Went to our local gun club meeting tonight since it was our annual elections meeting and quite regularly we have a bit of a "buy, sell, and trade" on the back tables of the room. I hadn't bought anything new (or old?) in quite a while and so I bought this Danish M1867 Rolling Block since I couldn't turn it down at the reasonable price it was being offered at.

These were originally chambered for the 11.7x51R Danish, but this one appears to have been re-chambered to .45-70 Govt. like so many of them were. When I got back home and checked a little further a full length .45-70 case easily slid into the chamber right up to the rim with no effort. So then I tried a loaded .45-70 round for my Trapdoor Springfield (Lee 405HB boolit) and it goes "kerplunk" ... and drops right down completely flush to the rim without any hesitation what so ever. The chamber is absolutely spotless which also leads me to believe it was re-chambered and the bore is excellent from the chamber to the muzzle ... bright and shiny with no visible pitting anywhere. I knocked an oversized, lightly oiled .45-70 boolit through the bore and it rough measures at about .460" with my micrometer and old eyes. Outside the metalwork has a very light skim of red rust so it'll need a bit of a cleaning up, but she's complete with her original sights and cleaning rod. (Unfortunately, there is no bayonette with it but that wasn't a deal breaker for me.)

Anyone played around with one of these Danish Rollers that might have any suggestions for loads? I'm going to try a few rounds of my low pressure Trapdoor Springfield loads with the Lee 405HB boolit and see how badly the cases expand at the rim. I might try putting a few wraps of tape on a few of them 2/3rds of the way down the case to see if I can centre things up a bit when the bases fire-form. I'll neck size after the cases are formed anyway, so if they don't swell up too badly I should get a few rounds out of them. Should be fun ... I needed a new project!

:Fire:

(And of course here are some obligatory "eye candy" photos just to prove that it's not all fiction ...)

https://i.imgur.com/XPGyIri.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/80ilCWv.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/SdvfApk.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/BEmEJun.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/YX53NY2.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/4zKoaIR.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/kMbzEhc.jpg

[55fairlane]

Nice find, I am in search of a new project was well.....I would have grabbed it up if I was there......very Nice!

[17nut]

Bear in mint that the Danish round is quite conical compared to a 45-70.
Unless the barrel have been set back a good inch and a half, a fired round will not chamber in a true 45-70 again.

208972
208973

[sharps4590]

For my peace of mind I'd cast the chamber, a couple inches of the bore and remove all doubt. I'd also check the twist for the same reason unless you already know what it is. If the twist of fast enough, 1-20 or thereabouts, I'd have to be shooting 480-500 gr. bullets over BP.

[curator]

Buffalo Arms offers correct brass for the 11.7X51R Danish Remington rifle. The head size is larger than .45-70 as 17nut and others have pointed out. Mine shoots the unsized Lee .459/405HB boolit quite accurately as it drops from the mould at .462" cast from 1 in 40 Tin/lead alloy. I have good success with "trapdoor" loads using smokeless powder (SR4759) and also Black powder (OE 1.5Fg) using this boolit. There is quite a bit of information on this and other forums about loading and shooting these rifles. Do some research before getting in too deep.

[marlinman93]

I have one here also, but the top tang on mine is marked 1885 vs. your 1878. Same caliber, but the one I have is still an original chamber. I slugged the bore on mine and got much larger at .463" so I need some .464" bullets for it. Haven't fired it yet, as it needed sights and extractor when I got it, plus the spur was broken off the block. I'm fixing it up for my son in law, and he will likely be the first to fire it.
My experience with original Rolling Blocks has been loading mild smokeless powder. Any load used in a Trapdoor is fine for a Rolling Block.

[Reverend Al]

Bear in mint that the Danish round is quite conical compared to a 45-70.
Unless the barrel have been set back a good inch and a half, a fired round will not chamber in a true 45-70 again.

I have a bunch of already short Hornady leverevolution brass in .45-70 so was thinking that I'd dedicate those cases in this rifle. I don't use the Hornady brass in any of my other .45-70's so it'll be easy to recognize them by their headstamp and they wouldn't ever be used in a .45-70 again.

I already have some cerrosafe and can do a chamber / throat casting first and get some actual dimensions to work with.

[Reverend Al]

Buffalo Arms offers correct brass for the 11.7X51R Danish Remington rifle.

Yes, I'm sure Buffalo Arms does offer proper brass for the Danish round, but since I live up north in "Canukistan" Buffalo Arms can't ship me any rifle brass thanks to the current ITAR cross border shipping regulations. I'm not aware of a Canadian distributor for any of Buffalo Arms products that might actually go through the pile of grief involved in filing all of the import / export paperwork to import some, and even if there were a Canadian distributor for BA products I hate to think what the retail cost might be after they've jumped through all of the hoops to get a bit of this brass up here. In my case for some casual plinking with this old girl I think I'll just try reforming some of my on hand Hornady .45-70 cases and if I get short case life due to a fat chamber then lots more .45-70 brass is readily available at a modest price. (Especially since Hornady brass is available for sale cheaply as once fired ... nobody up here seems to want to deal with reloading those shorter cases after they shoot the factory leverevolution ammo.)

[17nut]

For my peace of mind I'd cast the chamber, a couple inches of the bore and remove all doubt. I'd also check the twist for the same reason unless you already know what it is. If the twist of fast enough, 1-20 or thereabouts, I'd have to be shooting 480-500 gr. bullets over BP.

1:28" or 1:71cm
All i have ever encounted had shot superb with the Lee 405-459-HB

[17nut]

Yours was made in Denmark and have a barrel made from German Witten steel.
When they converted to centerfire, smokeless and jacketed they made tests and found the Sheffield steel on the American made ones not as tough. So the Danish ones ended up with ammo loaded to 1600bar32.2kpsi and the US ones to 1200bar~17.4kpsi.
So Trapdoor loads are fine ;-)

When they got rechambered a long leade was applied to "aid" the iron jacketed bullet into the BP rifling without pressures going through the roof.

[Reverend Al]

Well, it's finally range day tomorrow with a friend. I've got a few Trapdoor Springfield equivalent loads to test in this old girl. They are loaded with Lee 405 HB bullets that have been powder coated up to about .462 / .463 over light charges of IMR4198. I'll let you know the results ...

[sharps4590]

17, thanks!! I had no idea what the twist was on those cool old rollers. Don't believe that's fast enough for the long, heavy bullets.

Rev., I've always had pretty darn good results with 4198 in the 45-70. Good luck with yours and look forward to your report!!

[marlinman93]

Almost every BP era rifle has very slow twist rates compared to today's barrels. There are many people today trying to fire extremely long/heavy bullets in these old guns, and getting frustrating results form these old, slow twist rates.

[Reverend Al]

Well, I took the old girl out today and I tried a few of my Trapdoor Springfield loads in .45-70 cases with the powder coated Lee 405 grain HB bullets. The .45-70 cases do swell up at the base ahead of the rim, but I only lost one case to a vertical split about half way up the body of the case. (And these cases were several times fired without annealing.) It does shoot a little bit off the sights for me ... but I think I can live with the way it shoots! At 100 yards it printed a nice tight 3 shot group with my fuzzy old eyes and the coarse military sights! When I got home I scrounged around and did find one scrap .348 Winchester case in my reloading shop and although it's way too big at the base to chamber all of the way it might be possible to squeeze these down to fit a bit better than the undersized .45-70 cases. I suspect it's worth playing around with to see if they will work better. As an alternative, has anyone tried running .50-70 Govt. cases through an 11.7x51R sizer die to try and form "shooter" brass for these rifles or would it take too much "grunt" to resize them to fit?

https://i.imgur.com/PcP2rZ3.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/moJPx9V.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/Da7dRob.jpg

:bigsmyl2:

[TCLouis]

Nice find.
Nicer grouping!

[17nut]

Do continue to use 45-70 but use this little trick for first time firing:
Put on a couple of rounds of electrical tape at the base of the cartridges, that will help control swelling.
Remember it's only the first time, after that they pretty much fit the chamber and need no sizing. Necksizing at the most.

348 and 50-70 cases are (way) to big at the base and need a lot of turning. That and they are way to expensive to convert.

[725]

Wow. Nice group from that 'ol gal. You are on your way! Have fun.

[sharps4590]

4198 works again!! Well done!!

[marlinman93]

.50-70 cases are also much shorter too! Only 1.7" long.

[Reverend Al]

.50-70 cases are also much shorter too! Only 1.7" long.

Dang ... there's always a fly in the ointment!

:-(

[Reverend Al]

I guess I'll stick with .45-70 cases and tape them at the base ...

[curator]

The "electrical tape around the base fix" is a pretty good work-around if you can't get the correct brass. Keep .45-70 "trapdoor" level loads to be safe. Rolling blocks do not vent gas well if you have a case rupture. I shot my Dane for a few years before getting the correct cases, no problem. Annealing the .45-70 case mouths prior to fireforming helped with getting them concentric. Being an accomplished paper-patcher, I cut the tape on an angle so the ends butted perfectly with no over-lap. Once fire-formed I never sized these cases, I simply de-primed, re-primed, loaded powder, wad and bullet to shoot. Shooting bullets that thumb-seated with the slightest friction insured a good fit in the bore. Mine liked boolits of .462 to .463. If the slugs needed an extra .001" diameter, a coating of Lee Liquid Alox will often suffice and help keep the bullets from falling out of loaded cases, (remember the over powder wad or Dacron filler!)

[Hogpost]

Since 45-70 brass is almost 1/8" too short, I use StarLine 45-90 brass, shortened to the correct length. Verified my chamber length by chambering one piece of brass and trimming a bit, over & over, 'til the block just perfectly closed & locked. Length turned out to be 2.2", just like the theoretical original. Done this way, headspace questions are eliminated. The purpose of the tape wrap is not to "control" or reduce the swelling, but to keep the case concentric with the chamber. Without the wrap, you get a "guppy belly" swell.

I use brass striping tape, about 0.125 wide, from an art supply store, two wraps around the base up against the rim, being sure to not overlap the ends. This is only required on the first firing. Similarly, I flare the case mouth the first time enough that it slightly drags on chambering, thus assuring concentricity at the front end also. The result is perfect cases.

Both of mine like the Lyman .458-405-grain hollow base, although one prefers them as-cast. I seat to expose the front grease groove, thereby reducing the leade. Bullets just touch the load of 76 grains Schuetzen FFFG; this is a nice mild, clean, but effective and accurate load. I've taken several large feral pigs with the carbine. For hunting and field-plinking rounds, I use a 45-70 die set to crimp the bullets.

Great Danes are super rifles; have fun with yours!

[17nut]

Since 45-70 brass is almost 1/8" too short, I use StarLine 45-90 brass, shortened to the correct length. Verified my chamber length by chambering one piece of brass and trimming a bit, over & over, 'til the block just perfectly closed & locked. Length turned out to be 2.2", just like the theoretical original. Done this way, headspace questions are eliminated. The purpose of the tape wrap is not to "control" or reduce the swelling, but to keep the case concentric with the chamber. Without the wrap, you get a "guppy belly" swell.

I use brass striping tape, about 0.125 wide, from an art supply store, two wraps around the base up against the rim, being sure to not overlap the ends. This is only required on the first firing. Similarly, I flare the case mouth the first time enough that it slightly drags on chambering, thus assuring concentricity at the front end also. The result is perfect cases.

Both of mine like the Lyman .458-405-grain hollow base, although one prefers them as-cast. I seat to expose the front grease groove, thereby reducing the leade. Bullets just touch the load of 76 grains Schuetzen FFFG; this is a nice mild, clean, but effective and accurate load. I've taken several large feral pigs with the carbine. For hunting and field-plinking rounds, I use a 45-70 die set to crimp the bullets.

Great Danes are super rifles; have fun with yours!

Simply not so!
Danish 11.4x51R brass is @ 1/10" shorter than standard 45-70.
The fallasy that you have a 11.4x56 rifle is common but none the less false.
Please take a couple of minuts to read this:



Here is a resume i wrote some time ago to adress the confusion about chamber length:

Danish Rolling Blocks and chamber length confusion

The original Danish RB round was 11.4x41.5R rimfire. Load was 52grains in 1867 and changed to 60 grains of BP behind a 385 grains boolit.
Denmark ordered 20000 rifles from Remington to be delivered within 6 months. That backfired for Remington because Sheffield could not deliver enough barrels.
The Danes got to make their own RB’s without paying royalty as a result.
5 production lines was set up and each of them had a master gunsmith which was in charge of quality. Each smith had to manufacture his own set of Go-No Go gauges and have them certified by the factories master controller. This becomes important later!
All is well and from 1867 to 1878 @78500 RB’s are manufactured.
In 1884 the Danes start to develop a replacement for the RB and at the same time they start to ponder a way to modernise the RB’s. In 1896 they were officially converted to: Smokeless, centerfire and jacketed bullets.
And now comes problems in heaps falling on the arsenal, Because of the 5 different Go-No Go tools it is clear that bores range from 11.25mm~.443” to 11.75mm~.463”. You can’t design a standard round with jacketed and smokeless that will work within those ranges with any kind of accuracy and without huge variations in pressure. So a LARGE long throat is devised to size the bullets for the smaller bores.
That is why some Danes will chamber a 45-90 without problems and why the 11.4x56R thought exists.

In the development of the final cartridge choices in smokeless was dismal and experiments led to the 56mm cartridge. But that meant grinding down the hammer for chamber access and that was dismissed along with slower reloading of the rifle. Only 100 rifles were ever converted and they can be easily identified by the ground down hammer. Most/all were scrapped so the likelihood of hundreds of them popping up in the US is nill. You have a ”standard” 11.4x51R chamber.


Added:
When conversion was done in 1895 some metallurgic tests were made on barrel steel. It was found that the Sheffield steel barrels used by Remington was as originally specified but not as strong as the German Witten steel used in the Danish made rifles. That means the Remingtons are rated at a max. of 1200bar~17,4kpsi and the Danish ones marked ”Kjøbenhavns Tøihuus” are rated at a max. of 1600bar~23.2kpsi. In short do not use Trapdoor loads even if full length 45-70 (or longer) brass fits your chamber!

[Hogpost]

17Nut, your professed research and knowledge seem impressive, but permit me to present some conflicting facts:

1. I have two rifles now, and had a 3rd previously, that perfectly accept the shortened 45-90 cartridge as I described, such cartridge having been shortened as described to match the existing chamber. This is fact.

2. I have worked with two other gentlemen with precisely the same rifle type with the same chamber dimensions. This is also fact.

3. Buffalo Arms has been selling 11.7 x 56mm loaded ammunition for at least five years, probably more, made from modified .348 cases. Clearly it works well in hundreds of rifles around the country. People would not pay $2 per round if it did not work, and Buffalo would not continue making it if it did not sell. This too is fact.

4. If you peruse this forum on the subject, you will find a great many discussions, stretching back many years, on the same subject with experiences and conclusions similar to mine. While one cannot claim them all to be fact, it is unlikely that every one of those Cast Boolit members & posters are either liars or fools.

Thus, I suggest you review your sources; you might find amongst them the same guy that started the story of the Spanish 43 Reformado pre-dating the 43 Spanish round

[17nut]

First of i didnt say your cases wont fit, what i said was: You do not have a rifle with a 11.4x56R chamber!
Thats it, no more.
There was 100 rifles converted in the late mid 1890's and they were all (but a wery few) scrapped after the experiments. Thus it is impossible that hundreds has surfaced in The US of A, nothing more nothing less.

Because someone sells flat earth books doesnt mean that the globe is in fact flat, does it?

Now what i said to adress the long leade that misguides you to think the chamber is longer than what the arsenal cut is:

In 1884 the Danes start to develop a replacement for the RB and at the same time they start to ponder a way to modernise the RB’s. In 1896 they were officially converted to: Smokeless, centerfire and jacketed bullets.
And now comes problems in heaps falling on the arsenal, Because of the 5 different Go-No Go tools it is clear that bores range from 11.25mm~.443” to 11.75mm~.463”. You can’t design a standard round with jacketed and smokeless that will work within those ranges with any kind of accuracy and without huge variations in pressure. So a LARGE long throat is devised to size the bullets for the smaller bores.
That is why some Danes will chamber a 45-90 without problems and why the 11.4x56R thought exists.


You may not think so but i have all the material written in Denmark on the Danish RB and i have talked in length with some of the most knowledgeable persons in Denmark on this subject.

You may believe what you want, i'm just telling you the facts, no more no less.

[Hogpost]

Whatever, you just keep clutching your research in the face of actual physical reality. My pieces have all had a solid ridge on the chamber, corresponding to the longer 56mm cartridge, followed by a long leade; borne out by chamber casts of my own and others on this and other forums. It is that sharp solid ridge to which I trim my cases. Borne out also by so many others who use 45-90 and 348 cases to make ammunition in similar manner that fits perfectly and fires accurately, including ammunition manufactured and sold for years by a respected company.

In the meantime, we will continue to enjoy loading for, and shooting, these wonderful Danish rolling blocks with black powder loads and soft lead bullets. We probably have many more in this country than remain in yours; please thank your ancestors for these fine pieces.

[Reverend Al]

Basically sounds like what I had planned for. I have lots of .45-70 brass, including some short Hornady brass, but I also have a Kal Max case stretcher so can lengthen them as needed. I'll try the tape method to centre the cases on fire forming. For now it's a New Years project since we're out of town for the holidays.

[earshot]

I own one of these 1867 danish rollers a couple of years now. They are great rifles.I use .45-70 starline cases. After firing they are expanded a bit near the base.I re-size these cases only partly, leaving the 'hump' in place. I load with the 405 lee bullet unsized, Wano jagdpulver and the gun is an excellent shooter at 50m. Cases last well.
I shoot this rifle once every week at 50 metres and it is very accurate. Sometimes 10 shot groups come in at 2 inches from the standing positions.....Wish I had a shorter version as well.

[Engineer Bill]

Hello All,
I have one of the Danish rollers and enjoy it immensely. My question is What units do the sight gradations represent; yards? meters? Alens?
I'm working on duplicating the original load to work with the sight
Thanks
Engineer Bill

[texasnative46]

Reverend Al,

I too have an 1867 Danish RB (that was made at the Copenhagen Arsenal, converted to CF at some point in its life, refitted in 1896 & reissued thereafter.), which I fire with "taped base" 45-70 loads & .462 soft lead slugs, in front of BP or moderate amounts of 4198.

It shoots BEAUTIFULLY. - I couldn't be happier with my old Dane & plan to go Axis/hog hunting this Spring/Summer.
(Perhaps "Axis/feral hog thinning" is more truthful, IF we get to hunt in one particular area that wants the "invasive species" removed.)

Wishing a BLESSED week to you/yours, tex

[17nut]

Hello All,
I have one of the Danish rollers and enjoy it immensely. My question is What units do the sight gradations represent; yards? meters? Alens?
I'm working on duplicating the original load to work with the sight
Thanks
Engineer Bill

They were first converted from alen (yards) to meters in 1882 and then changed to suit the then new smokeless load in 1896.
They tried very hard to make the smokeless cartridge fit the sights (to save money) but ultimately powder were to poor and pressures to high. So new sights it was to suit the cartridge.

So it is in meters.

Here is data on the original 1896 cartridge:
217736

25gram~385grains
476m/s~1562fps
Max. pressure 1600bar~23.2kpsi

[wellfedirishman]

These are great rifles. I have a couple (one original rifle, one cut down carbine I picked off GunBroker a few years ago). Both shoot well with Trapdoor loads.

Solo Rolling block rifle
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?245313-Range-report-on-Danish-Rolling-Block-11mm-converted-to-45-70

Pair of Rolling blocks rifle and cut-down carbine
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?251784-A-pair-of-Danish-Rolling-Block-sporters

I cleaned up the muzzle on the carbine and it shoots way better now than in that range report.