Four Keith Type 44 Caliber Bullets

[44MAG#1]

Bullets

[derek45]

OK,...i'll bite

guessing the 2nd is RCBS 44-250-K ?

[44MAG#1]

Nothing to bite on it is a Lyman 429421. The next two are both H&G 503's.

[osteodoc08]

I personally like #3. Appear to have the most equal driving bands. #1 does as well but seems to have a bigger grease groove moving the balance point forward instead of back letting it ride nose up as originally designed. #2/4 have unequal driving bands. As far as I can tell on my iPhone anyhow.

[Shuz]

Perhaps some folks may not know that Lyman made several versions of429421 down thru the years.I am fairly certain that over the past 50 years, I have owned and loaded all of them. In my "accuracy testing", which has been with various revolvers, both Rugers and Smiths, I have never been able to claim that one version shot better than another.

[FISH4BUGS]

I shoot the #503 in all my 44 special and lighter 44 mag loads. It is acknowledged to be THE true Keith designed 44 bullet, not a "Keith type".

[44MAG#1]

I shoot the #503 in all my 44 special and lighter 44 mag loads. It is acknowledged to be THE true Keith designed 44 bullet, not a "Keith type".

Which one the 3rd or the 4th?

[FISH4BUGS]

I checked in the casting shed to see if I had any cast unsized #503's. No dice.
However, I would say, based on my memory and other photos of #503's it would be #4. The nose shape is the same one as those that I have cast.
#3 is a shorter fatter nose. I am not sure what mould the #3 is from. Are those BOTH from actual factory Hensley & Gibbs moulds? I hope you have the actual moulds to clarify this.
To me, #4 looks like the ones I cast. #3 COULD be a #243, or a plain base #140. Hey...I am just a H&G collector junkie and certainly NOT an expert. Tom Dugas certainly is the man in that regard.
Very interesting question and comparison however.

[44MAG#1]

Both are 503's. Ordered in the last half of the 1970's with Wayne Gibbs on the phone. The first I bought was the narrow front band bullet. The second was the wider front band bullet after I talked about wanting the wide front band. I know they had the cherry because I ordered cast bullets from Kent Lomont that was nearly identical to the wider band bullet in the early 70's.
Kent also did some pressure testing for me in the very early '80's for me with a 270 Keith.

[FISH4BUGS]

Interesting. Maybe a variation on the #503.
May I make a suggestion?
Please let TEXASFLYBOY know about this. He is the foremost authority on the H&G moulds.
It (#3) might be seen as a "custom' version of the standard #503....or maybe the other way around.
At any rate, an interesting variation of the #503. I think Tom would be very interested in learning more.
What is the unsized weight of the bullets #3 and #4 and the alloy at those weights?
Thank you for the information!
p.s. I THOUGHT I recognized the name Kent Lomont. I am a machine gun collector and shooter and Kent was very knowledgeable in the automatic weapons field. He did many conversions before the ban in 86. I owned one of his conversions.
He was truly a firearms and ballistics expert.

[osteodoc08]

There were several small minute changes over the years. All shoot well from my experience. I'd prefer #3 from what I can see on my iPhone.

[FISH4BUGS]

There were several small minute changes over the years. All shoot well from my experience. I'd prefer #3 from what I can see on my iPhone.
I agree but typically any changes got a new mould number. For instance, take a look at the 9mm moulds. There are a fair number of them and some are very close to one another except for a minor change.

[44MAG#1]

Every mold manufacturer that makes a Keith Type bullet says I have the true Keith bullet. Another maker says no, I have it. Then another one says, no no I have it. And on and on and on we go.

[Mal Paso]

Every mold manufacturer that makes a Keith Type bullet says I have the true Keith bullet. Another maker says no, I have it. Then another one says, no no I have it. And on and on and on we go.

Careful, one misstep here and it's up to Deep Theological Discussion or down to The Pit.

I like MP Molds #503 of current production molds. I think Dale 53 made his #503 available for that clone.

[bob208]

I have a lyman 429421 with hp and gas check. I used to load it over heavy loads of 2400 in the .44 mag. it was always very accurate and put down anything that was hit with it.

[jrmartin1964]

I have a lyman 429421 with hp and gas check.

I wasn't aware that Lyman ever produced No.429421 as a gas check... I guess you learn something new every day

[44MAG#1]

I wasn't aware that Lyman ever produced No.429421 as a gas check... I guess you learn something new every day

I for one aren't going to say there isn't a custom version of one. Lyman used to make a hollow point version of the 250 Keith if you have read Keith's work.
But a gas check and hollow point too on the same bullet???

[frank505]

I've got a 429 422 hollow base mold I got from Elmer Keith. I guess that's a Keith bullet...... I really like the Mihec #503. Shot lots of varmints with the Penta point with outstanding results.

[44MAG#1]

I've got a 429 422 hollow base mold I got from Elmer Keith. I guess that's a Keith bullet...... I really like the Mihec #503. Shot lots of varmints with the Penta point with outstanding results.

Yes, Keith did have a hollow base version. I'll ask again a HP-GC version??? Since he was against a GC my money is that it isn't a Keith. How about you?

[jrmartin1964]

But a gas check and hollow point too on the same bullet???

Oh, yes - they DO exist...

Lyman/Ideal No.431244 (later designated as No.429244), designed by Ray Thompson:
209224

And for comparison, an early Lyman/Ideal No.431421 (later designated as No.429421):
209226

The concept of a GC on No.429421 would be something of an anomaly... especially considering that Elmer Keith believed the GC to be unnecessary for use in pistols and revolvers, and that none of his designs for handguns... as he originally intended them... carried one.

[44MAG#1]

Jrmartin1964,

They do not exit. First off if you will read my #17&19 posts you will see the forms the Keith had.
The bullet you posted with the hp and GC is a Ray Thompson design not a Keith. The Ray Thompson design came way after the Keith. The Keith was only in solid nose, hollow point and hollow base design.
No gas check.
Go back and read my post #17&19.
If you know of a Keith from Lyman with a GC and a HP on the same bullet either,show it or let us know where we can see it where it is noted that is is a Lyman mold and not a custom.

[bob208]

looks like there is a pic of one in post number 20.

[derek45]

OHAUS 44-250-K

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?346610-how-old-is-this-OHAUS-44-250-K

not sure Mr. Kieth would like the rounded lube groove, but I imagine he'd approve powder coating if he saw it.

I like this mold, but wish it was a 4 cavity.

smokes clear and carolina blue coated...

https://i.imgur.com/alBJjRX.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/ZfzxYP8.png

https://i.imgur.com/yg8C95d.jpg



some of these are LEE, GC milled off, now 270gr...

https://i.imgur.com/1sfgIap.jpg

[44MAG#1]

Post 20 shows a Ray Thompson design that is a HP and GC on the same bullet.

[bob208]

if you look at the second picture it is a ideal-lyman mold not a Thompson. back when I ordered mine the a list said Keith the b list said gas check and the c list said h-p.

[44MAG#1]

That is not a gas check bullet. Anyone here can see that. Enlarge the photo and you will see. I didn't fall off the turnip truck last night.

[Texasflyboy]

I have a half dozen 503's. Standard models and custom order. I have come to the conclusion that over Hensley & Gibb's 60 year manufacturing span, cherry design was an "eyeball" thing and not a scaled blueprint. Wayne Gibbs "bullet board" where he posted samples of each design was most likely his reference library for design. My opinion.

As to my half dozen 503's, Few are exactly the same. What is odd about my collection is that driving bands on all of them are wide on the older ones (1950's era) and thinner on the 70's era ones, and then wide again on almost all the custom order ones (80's/90's).

They all perform spectacularly. Can't tell the difference between any of them.

Tom

[Shuz]

I have a half dozen 503's. Standard models and custom order. I have come to the conclusion that over Hensley & Gibb's 60 year manufacturing span, cherry design was an "eyeball" thing and not a scaled blueprint. Wayne Gibbs "bullet board" where he posted samples of each design was most likely his reference library for design. My opinion.

As to my half dozen 503's, Few are exactly the same. What is odd about my collection is that driving bands on all of them are wide on the older ones (1950's era) and thinner on the 70's era ones, and then wide again on almost all the custom order ones (80's/90's).

They all perform spectacularly. Can't tell the difference between any of them.

Tom

Same result I found with the Lyman 429421's of different front band widths. I also noticed no appreciable difference in accuracy between the round lube groove and the square lube groove boolits.

[derek45]

really liking my Arsenal 503 mold.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?352781-ARSENAL-Molds-503-Quick-review

https://i.imgur.com/nQGypmJ.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/z1oEwmp.jpg

[marlin39a]

There's a group buy discussion for an Elmer Keith tribute edition of molds. Original design 429421 and 429422.