MiHec 12ga .678" & .732" Round Balls ~ Any Field Results?

[longbow]

I posted this in the Group Buy Results section but got no responses.

Has no-one loaded and shot any of these?

More specifically, has anyone shot them in rifled guns? I don't think I have ever seen any field results for 0.678" balls in shotcups shot from rifled barrels.

I am also curious about the 0.732" balls in rifled guns. I found that 0.735" RB's did very well in both smoothbore and rifled gun and that the bearing surface is pretty small though rifling held (no skidding or stripping). I am wondering about the 0.732" balls. They are small enough they might be good candidates for powder coating though I have not had any leading issues with 0.735" RB's so maybe not necessary.

Just curious.

Longbow

[fastdadio]

I posted this in the Group Buy Results section but got no responses.

Has no-one loaded and shot any of these?

More specifically, has anyone shot them in rifled guns? I don't think I have ever seen any field results for 0.678" balls in shotcups shot from rifled barrels.

I am also curious about the 0.732" balls in rifled guns. I found that 0.735" RB's did very well in both smoothbore and rifled gun and that the bearing surface is pretty small though rifling held (no skidding or stripping). I am wondering about the 0.732" balls. They are small enough they might be good candidates for powder coating though I have not had any leading issues with 0.735" RB's so maybe not necessary.

Just curious.

Longbow

I think I have touched on your question. But not with a shotgun. I have loaded my .58 cal Hawken rifle using a 20 ga. shot cup with two .535 round balls stacked in line. Loaded over 50-70 grs. Pyrodex gave some impressive results. Rate of twist is 1/48 on this one. The balls hit point of aim at no more than 6" apart, and usually about 3" at 100 yards. I don't know the rate of twist of a rifled shotgun, but this is something you might want to try.

[longbow]

Yay! A response!

There was so much interest in those round ball moulds that I figured someone from the shotgun forum would answer. I can't believe no-one has shot any of those balls yet so maybe they just aren't talking about it.

To answer your question, most modern rifled shotguns and choke tubes run about 1:36" twist so pretty fast for a big round ball and really fast (I think) for a round ball in a shotcup. I recall reading articles about people knurling Buckbuster slugs (and others) because they weren't getting up to full twist spin rates due to skidding in the cups. Knurling gave more grip so less slippage.

Round balls have less bearing surface so unless they are tight in the bore I suspect slippage is a given.

You may not have read my post on 0.735" RB in a rifled gun I borrowed. Accuracy was excellent in my opinion at 2" +/- a bit at 50 yards and that was after I was well beaten by shooting many loads through my smoothbore first so I wasn't shooting my best... and with open sights. Recovered balls showed very nice engraving. Pretty good squeeze down for a 0.735" ball in a 0.727" groove so that likely helped.

Rifled shotguns are pretty rare in these parts and the one I borrowed from a friend got sold so I haven't had a chance to try again. I am currently thinking I just may get a rifled gun.

That shooting was done with a Remington 870 with 1:36" or 1:38" twist (I forget) but fast for a 12 ga. ball that wants about 1:120" twist.

As stated, I am curious about how the 0.678" ball perform in a rifled gun in shotcup.

Your experience is appreciated and relevant since 1:48" is pretty fast for a .54 round ball. If those two balls are staying that close I suspect they must be picking up the spin pretty well.

Did you have much trouble getting those 20 ga. shotcups down the bore? They are a bit oversize for a .58.

How was the fit with the balls? Did you use a short starter? Much resistance down the bore?

And... many years ago I shot my old Cooey single shot with BP and 0.690" RB's using cut down shotcups. I got horrible plastic fouling in the shotgun bore! How was your .58... much plastic fouling?

BP is hard on plastic hulls too but of course not a problem with a front stuffer.

Thanks for the response and I am curious about fit and fouling in your muzzleloader.

Longbow

[fastdadio]

Ok, here it goes. The shot cups fit the Investarms .58 like they're made for it. Then, the two .535's fit the cup perfect also. Just tight enough and rams home with normal effort. I always use a short starter and made extra sure the two balls were touching in the cup. I also used a 7/16 dowel to load with and made sure I pushed on the balls with the dowel and not the mouth of the cup. When developing this load, I always swabbed the bore between shots with Natural loob 1000. I had no plastic fouling occur that I know of, but I did not shoot any large volume of these loads either. The experiment went well right from the start and good results came with the first load. I never have hunted with this load. I do have two balls I recovered from shooting layered plywood at 50 yds that hit stacked together and are fused together. And it goes on from here. Just for grins, I have shot just about everything I could think of that would fit in the shot cup out of this gun. BB's, washers, finish nails with the heads pounded flat into fleshettes, aa batteries, wood dowels, bird seed, glitter confetti, ......One time, I even fired a .570 patched round ball!

[longbow]

What! You didn't! ... a .570" round ball... now that's just weird!

Thanks, I appreciate the responses. Its all good stuff.

I'm guessing these were soft lead .535" balls?

I'm surprised the shotcups fit so well what with .58 being a good bit smaller than 0.62" but if it works who's to argue? I regret never trying that myself when I had my Zouave or later Parker Hale .58's. I was mostly weird and shot minie's and patched round balls from both though. Never occurred to me to try 20 ha. shotcups with balls and maybe other "stuff" in them. I think I missed out!

I'll bet the lube saved you from scrubbing out plastic. I found my 12 ga. caked up with BP fouling and that was coated with a good layer of plastic. What a mess! Lubed felt wads likely would have helped but I didn't shoot that many of those rounds so a little scrubbing was my penalty.

Thanks again.

Longbow

[Hogtamer]

Kent, You'll recall I loaded and shot some of the .678 balls you sent me with pretty good results but I cant find the dang pictures. Did I send them in email? Anyway, they were easy to load in a wadcup, excellent fit and accurate to 75 yds, as far as I tested them in rifled gun. OK, found them!
208970
208971
Still have a few and don't recall specifics of load but will try again. Been proofing some other loads on hogs and deer hunting. So far have hogs with 20 ga Uncle Dino's and Lyman 525s (great), deer with buckshot and Uncle Dino's (great). One thing I've discovered, even with modest loads there's no recovering slugs/balls as they blow through the animals leaving them dead right there! Nothing in this part of the world will hold one of the .678 balls.

[dsh1106]

Kent, You'll recall I loaded and shot some of the .678 balls you sent me with pretty good results but I cant find the dang pictures. Did I send them in email? Anyway, they were easy to load in a wadcup, excellent fit and accurate to 75 yds, as far as I tested them in rifled gun. OK, found them!
208970
208971
Still have a few and don't recall specifics of load but will try again. Been proofing some other loads on hogs and deer hunting. So far have hogs with 20 ga Uncle Dino's and Lyman 525s (great), deer with buckshot and Uncle Dino's (great). One thing I've discovered, even with modest loads there's no recovering slugs/balls as they blow through the animals leaving them dead right there! Nothing in this part of the world will hold one of the .678 balls.

Are these results from a SB or RB ??

Scott

[Hogtamer]

These were from rifled gun, hood of truck.

[longbow]

Hal:

I had forgotten those pics. Its been a while.

Did you do a "push through" of ball in wad through the barrel? Wondering how tight the fit was. I am thinking very tight would be best for the small bearing area.

Like I said, I got 2" +/- a bit groups at 50 yards using 0.735" RB's in a rifled Remington 870. If that held up to 100 yards, I'd expect groups under 6" which would tickle me!

I am currently trying to pry some cash out of my wallet to buy a rifled gun. Lots of reasons I haven't... partly because I'm cheap and partly because I like the versatility of smoothbore but I still haven't finished my rifled choke tube so don't have that to play with. Even when I get it finished if it works what I really wanted was a side by that would put round balls into a reasonable group (under 8") at 100 yards and my rifled choke tube system wouldn't fit a side by. Mind you I suppose I could get side by barrels reamed and tapped for tubes then buy and rifle blank tubes. Regulation would be an issue of course.

Anyway, as you know I like round balls. I know the 0.735" balls work well in both rifled and smoothbore guns and 0.678" balls work well in smoothbore for sure but not so sure about rifled gun. Your 75 yard group has opened up quite a bit over the 50 yard group. I wonder if a tighter fit would help?

725 says he gets excellent accuracy with 0.702" RB's in shotcups which blows me away! I got sheared petals in smoothbore using 0.690" RB's in shotcups.

Lots of stuff to try and lots to learn yet!

Thanks for reposting those targets and jogging my old memory.

Kent

[Hogtamer]

I can't help but believe that the high sprue on those balls is not detrimental to accuracy unless you could get it perfectly vertical every time. Bore on Remington may be a little tighter, will try that one next.

[megasupermagnum]

I don't know about the MiHec mold, but my .735" JT mold sprue is relatively flush. I finish it by just a few strokes with a file.

[6pt-sika]

I can't help but believe that the high sprue on those balls is not detrimental to accuracy unless you could get it perfectly vertical every time. Bore on Remington may be a little tighter, will try that one next.

Now as with anything else "to each his own" but when I cast 0000 and 00000 buckshot I roll these between a piece of steel and a piece of aircraft grade aluminum . It doesn't make them perfectly round but it does sort of round them up where the sprue is . I read somewhere about the old guys doing this for their long rifles , over the log matches and their chunk guns .

[6pt-sika]

I cast a bunch of slugs with Bikerbeans .730" 730 grain slug mold and use them in my smooth bore 10 gauge doubles . Most of these guns are Damascus and over 100 years old , they are also generally choked tighter then the hinges of H...E...L...L so I do not want a slug that fits the bore I look for a slug that relatively fills the shokes in my guns with a mylar wrap . Most chokes in my 10 gauge Parkers mic .745-,750" so I take Bikerbeans slug and cut the petals from a REM SP-10 wad then put a .010" mylar wrap on the slug . My recent Russian acquisition of their 10 gauge version of the Lyman sabot slug measures about .720" and I can use them inside the SP-10 with the petals . So I'm thinking a roundball of .715-.720" would be very nice for my applications .

[ihunts2much]

I experimented with .690 balls in a hastings rifled barrel. Wad cup with ball was too tight of a push for comfort. I clipped opposing petals from the AA wad. It now passed through with a comfortable amount of resistance. Figured the 2 opposing petals would be OK if I didn't push them too fast. Loaded on green dot. Had good 50 yard accuracy (2-3" 5 shot group at POA). Had good accuracy at 80yds, but about 7 inches of drop from POA. I just snagged a used .678 mold and will be trying to Push them a bit harder and level out the trajectory. Thinking Longshot powder. Will probably be a couple months but will post range results.

[longbow]

Now you are the second guy I've seen post that combination of 0.690" RB and cutting two opposing petals. TRG3 said exactly the same thing. I thought it odd as the diametral fit isn't any better but I guess it allows more compression with less resistance of the two remaining petals. Anyway, now there's two saying it works.

I have to think that a proper fitting slightly smaller ball would be better without cutting petals. However, if it works, it works.

Not sure how consistent rifled bores are but as you are probably aware, smoothbore diameters vary... well... LOTS! So one size doesn't fit all for sure.

I'm really curious about performance with proper fitting ball in a shotcup in rifled gun. Hogtamer's results weren't bad but I'd expect a tight fitting combo to do better. Maybe not though as shotcups aren't made supper accurate like sabots are. In fact Greg Sappington gave up on wad slugs for that reason and moved onto sabot slugs. Been trying to get hold of him recently but no success.

Anyway, its all good info and interesting.

I'm also curious as to the 0.732" RB performance in rifled bore. There is no shotcup to affect anything there so you'd figure (I would anyway) they should do as well as a patched ball muzzleloader if the shotgun is solid.

Hopefully we'll get some more results here.

Thanks for posting.

Longbow

[megasupermagnum]

rifled bores can vary as well. I think the Ithaca deer slayer III is something like .725", while my (and others have reported the same) H&R ultra slug hunter is just a hair over .731".

[Hogtamer]

I shot the rest of my .678 balls from LB Sunday afternoon along with about 300 .22s and .22 Wmr. About same results as posted above but the load was not as strong.

[longbow]

Same wads Hal?

I'm wondering about fit. Did the petals show deep engraving? (Hmmm... how deep does plastic engrave anyway?) I mean clear sharp signs of rifling and compression at the equator of the ball?

Were those shot through your USH slug gun or other rifled gun?

The 0.678" balls are light slide fit in my smoothbore gun but the bore is 0.733"+ so a bit large.

The only rifled gun I have shot and checked was a Remington 870 which ran 0.727" groove IIRC. I do remember thinking it a bit tight for 0.735" RB's but they shot well.

Speaking of shooting the 0.678" RB's I sent, I still have some Zlugs you sent me. I will try another method of Brenneke'izing them. Last attempt didn't go too well and was a lot of machining to make tail wads.

Did you give up on the Zlugs? I thought you got some pretty decent accuracy from them.

[Hogtamer]

I've found that most of the standard wads we use for shot cup wads get damaged in rifled guns because they are relatively thin. They are not true sabots that are much thicker. Out of smoothbore they escape unscathed with the right fit and so we are able to get pretty good short range (50-75 yds) results. As for the Zlugs (zinc slugs) they were (are) a complete success for rifled guns. The final product is about 475-480 gr full bore (.731) solid slug that I can safely move at 1700 fps (pressure tested) into 3-4" groups at 100 yds out of 2 rifled guns. Lead from the same mold yields a 775 gr slug. That's as good as I am with a shotgun trigger and big recoil loads. I've got several hundred loaded and put away in case I ever need to stop a humvee! Off the charts penetration (Carl did the newspaper tests) and better shooters got even better results. Just hasn't worked out finding cooperative animal test subjects to date. Thinking of coming up with a 20 ga version this year. I've killed a bunch of animals with lots of different loads the last couple of years (buck, ball and slugs) and my conclusion is that anything 3/4 oz or so moving at 1300 fps or so is 100% lethal on anything in Georgia at least. And the older I get the less I like excessive recoil shot after shot at targets. BTW my latest kill was with the 525 lyman, cacity filled with hot glue, a nice hog in the head at about 70 yds. The petals strip out of my rifled 870 but nice accuracy at 100 yds, 4-5" high at 50 yds.

[longbow]

You know Greg Sappington got me to make a mould for an HP slug that was sized to fit into steel shot wads with thick petals. I still have a few of those slugs. Seems to me it all worked pretty well but accuracy was not up to what he wanted though I think they gave quite acceptable hunting accuracy.

I don't have a rifled gun so have not shot any.

Just wondering if steel shot wads would hold up better than the thin petal wads. A 0.662" RB is a tight fit in the few I had. A typical slug of the same or slightly smaller diameter would add some weight. Still not as accurately made as a real sabot but thicker and tougher than typical lead shot wads. The slug is a little smaller than 16 ga.

Now I gotta ask a question here and bear in mind it comes from a simple old guy so be gentle if you will. I read about how much less the 20 ga. kicks than a 12 ga. and that may make some sense with full bore slugs and heavier slugs in 12 ga. or full bore round balls because the 12 ga. ball is considerably heavier than a 20 ga. ball but with sabot slugs I have to think that the 12 ga. would have no more and possibly less recoil than a 20 ga. Same weight slug with larger area for gas to push on = lower pressure for same velocity. Powder burn rate would play a part but say slow powders in both. Is 20 ga. an easier shooting load? Does the "20 ga. has less recoil" apply to both full bore and sabot slugs?

A little thread wander but its my thread so...

And still no responses on those 0.732" RB's!

By the way, if you don't like the sprue nub you can tumble the balls and the sprue nub will get pretty much flattened down and disappear. I've done it by hand just rolling out handfuls of 0.690" balls a bunch of times. I've heard, but not tried, that putting a bunch of balls in a can and letting them roll around while you drive your car/truck for a few days works too. Anyway you do it you get dimpled balls but they should be pretty consistent dimples and for rifled gun I doubt they'd be detrimental.

Longbow

[Hogtamer]

I loaded and shot a bunch of Uncle D's 12 and 20 ga plastic base full bore slugs. 1 1/16 vs 3/4 oz slugs. You gotta have a lot more punch to move the heavier slug past brickbat velocity to 100 yds. I loaded the 3/4 oz slug to 1700 fps and shot out of a lighter gun and there is a lot less recoil vs 1 1/16 @ 1500 fps. Somebody with a sharper pencil could quantify that I'm sure. And like I said, the years are creeping up on me, 65 next month Lord willing. As for steel shot wads yes they make much better savots but are longer and very tapered. I worked up a 2-ball load in 3" 12 ga that worked great with some steel wads, 1 1/2 oz, balls 2-4" apart at 50 yds. But I had to put a couple 28 ga cards in the bottom as .600 ball would bulge wad near bottom. Patched the top ball with shot-wad thin petals for a good fit. Great results but HEAVY recoil. A heavy gun mitigates that to some extent but then you have to lug it around. The hubel sabots worked really well just needed the right size lead to fit and still hoping to get some more. Those savots are very thick amd will take a .575 projectile of the right height. As for the .678 they are great at 50 yds, good at 75 and will kill anything in the lower 48 at least. This last batch used a different but similar wad and the Steel powder charge I used wasn't quite hefty enough. They are a great fit in several wads I have and while I didn't shoot them out of smoothbore I'm sure would be at least as good as the Lees to 50 yds.

[ihunts2much]

I would like to get the .678 balls velocity up with factory slugs. Longshot data starts at 1 1/8 oz, and this ball barely tops an ounce. Steel powder has some impressive speed in 1 oz data, but all the recipes are with steel shot wads. Is there any data for this powder in a 1 oz lead load I can adapt to the lead ball?

[longbow]

Well, so far I have to say that the round ball loads out of rifled gun aren't seeming as accurate as I would have expected. That may be the ball in shotcup issue with small bearing area and slippage or petal damage.

Those 0.735" RB's I shot from the borrowed Remington rifled gun gave pretty impressive accuracy at 50 yards. I wish I had more to try at 100 yards but I doubt I could have taken much more recoil that day anyway.

I am currently contemplating buying a rifled gun and may just do it. Then I can test my bore size slugs based on turbo's design, the Nessler balls, more 0.735" RB's and 0.678" RB's in shotcups. I have to think that using a shotcup in a rifled gun is introducing another component and source of error where a bore size ball or slug should be just a large boolit. Any inaccuracy there has to be in the gun (loose pump gun barrels) and/or imbalance in large slugs... and maybe the jump through the forcing cone.

I find that my smoothbore round ball loads seem to do as well as most of the rifled gun results out to 50 yards anyway and that surprises me some.

Hope fully I will be out shooting shortly. I've got lots of slugs cast up:

- 50 Lee 7/8 oz.
- 60 Lee 1 oz.
- 60 or so of my full bore HB slugs based on turbo's design
- 25 or so Nessler balls
- 10 copper skirted 0.678" RB's
- 10 copper skirted TC slugs from a home made mould
- 10 or so TC HB slugs from a home made mould
- 10 or home made Brenneke style slugs

Now to load up and shoot... but maybe not all in one range session!

The Nessler balls and full bore slugs have been knurled up then sized to about 0.001" under bore size so barely a slip fit. The Nessler balls shot okay last time out but nearly as accurately as history says they should shoot... though that was from muzzleloaders.

I will also try the opening up factory rounds, dumping the shot then adding a 0.678" RB to see just how well that works. MikeinPeru says he gets about the same accuracy doing that with 0.680" RB's as I get with my good handloads with RB's and that is 3" to 4" at 50 yards. It is at longer ranges where RB in smoothbore loses out.

In my experience anyway.

Longbow