38 Spec 158gr +P Loads?

[huntingsgr8]

I'm planning on investing in a very reasonably priced S&W 14-3 38 Spec in the near future. I know that these guns were built for target shooting, and that they can easily utilize loads with +P level pressures. I was tempted to get a 586, but cast bullet velocities don't vary that much between the 38+P loads, and the 357 mag. While I plan to mostly shoot standard level loads (158gr-800fps) out of this gun, I do like to "push" the proverbial envelope from time to time, and I was wondering if I might be able to get a 158gr bullet to 1000fps from this gun, or possibly 1100fps? I know it's a bit much to ask of such a gun, but curiosity killed the cat. I plan to use either the Lee TL358-158-SWC, or the 358-158-RF, and cast from WW lead.

[Outpost75]

Getting 1000 fps with a 158-grain bullet from a 6" revolver cannot be done without exceeding industry +P pressure substantially.

Factory lead +P loads will do about 900 fps. I don't recommend shooting very much of +P in your Model 14 if you want it to last.

If high velocity is that important to you, you should sell that model 14 and get the 586...

[quail4jake]

Hodgdon data shows all 158 gr +P loads under 1000 fps, I load 158 XTPs and a 158 gr LRN with 5.5 grs of Longshot and get really great results, 980 fps SD 15 with my model 14. That is the only charge weight Hodgdon recommends for 158 gr +P with Longshot.
Also...what Outpost said, ditto...

[huntingsgr8]

A steady diet of +P ammunition isn't the plan, just more of a hundred yard experiment. Would standard loads suffice? Or would they destabilize and keyhole by then?

[Grmps]

http://www.handloads.com/loaddata/default.asp?Caliber=38%20Special%20+P&Weight=All&type=Handgun&Source=

[fecmech]

If speed is your need drop down a bit in bullet weight. My 14-3 is a tack driver (2" or less@50 yds) with both the Lee 120TC and the Lee 125RF. I run both with 4.2/Bullseye and that's right at 1000 fps. Accuracy is superb and pressures are below max standard. Both those bullets will outshoot any 158's from an accuracy standpoint.

PS. 158's@850-900 fps will do just fine to 100 yds. I use the 158 rn as my 100 yd ram load in Hunters pistol silhouette. I've shot them out to 200 yds off the bench at a steel swinger with good results

[quail4jake]

A steady diet of +P ammunition isn't the plan, just more of a hundred yard experiment. Would standard load suffice? Or would they destabilize and keyhole by then?
Great question, I only shoot +P in my 14 for groundhog hunting but I did fire it at 50+ yds just to try it. Grouped great at 50 and 75 but not so much at 100. I never tried standard LRN or WC over 50.

[Larry Gibson]

I'm planning on investing in a very reasonably priced S&W 14-3 38 Spec in the near future. I know that these guns were built for target shooting, and that they can easily utilize loads with +P level pressures. I was tempted to get a 586, but cast bullet velocities don't vary that much between the 38+P loads, and the 357 mag. While I plan to mostly shoot standard level loads (158gr-800fps) out of this gun, I do like to "push" the proverbial envelope from time to time, and I was wondering if I might be able to get a 158gr bullet to 1000fps from this gun, or possibly 1100fps? I know it's a bit much to ask of such a gun, but curiosity killed the cat. I plan to use either the Lee TL358-158-SWC, or the 358-158-RF, and cast from WW lead.

Pressures are measured via Oehler M43 PBL using a Contender barrel.

I duplicate 38 SPL +P LSWC loads with 3 bullets; 358477 (152 gr), 358156HP (150 gr) and the TL358-158-SWC HP (158 gr). Crimp is in the crimp groove on the 358477, front groove on the 358156 and the 2nd lube groove on the TL bullet. They are cast soft, usually of 30-1 or 40-1 alloy. I load them in W-W 38 SPL +P cases over 5.5 gr Alliant Unique with a Winchester small pistol primer. Velocities run 950 - 980 fps out of my 5" M15 S&W (same as your M14 but with just 1" less barrel). The measured pressures run 19,000 to 19,900 psi(M43). The SAAMI MAP for 38 SPL +P is 20,000 psi. Winchester 38 SPL +P 158 LSWCHP factory runs 18,000 to 18,900 psi(M43) in the same test barrel and runs 940 fps from my 5" M-15.

With either of your bullets, weighing not over 158 gr, loaded 5.3 to 5.5 gr Alliant Unique should come very close to 1000 fps and still be at or under the SAAMI MAP for the 38 SPL +P cartridge.

[gwpercle]

Save that fine model 14 for target loads and target shooting...that's what it was made for.

Buy a 357 Magnum to hot rod with.....something made for magnum, then you wont have to worry about damaging it. Heavy loads take a toll on a gun not built for it.
Besides ,life's too short to have just one revolver !
I would bet money the 14-3 is not rated for +P loads...it will be stamped on the barrel, if it's not stamped on the barrel don't shoot them in it. Better safe than sorry .
Gary

[Outpost75]

If you intend to shoot more than 100 rounds of +P in your Model 14 spread over the life of the gun, you may want to have a Rockwell hardness test done. A place where it won't show is on the top strap under the rear sight tang, then the mark is covered when the sight is replaced. This is also the area where the frame stretches if you abuse the gun with too many hot loads.

A +P rated revolver or .357 will test Rc24 minimum. A plain carbon steel Model 10-6 or earlier will go maybe Rc20. Most of the Model 14 target revolvers I tested over the years were soft and wouldn't even register on the "C" scale being Rb80-90. This was for guns made in the 1970s and 1980s. Never tested any made after that, as agency changed to 9mm pistols..

[huntingsgr8]

I might be won over to the 586 6", but I have never even held one. Got to play with a GP100 6'' a bit a few days ago, thought it was kinda unbalanced, but the biggest turn off was that I couldn't cock it with one hand. The 586 I'm ogling is only about 175$ more than the 14-3. Still....that 38 just bit me when I picked it up.....

[Preacher Jim]

You hotrod a mod 14 the forcing cone will shread. Take it from a fellow who has replaced many barrels on them and mod 19s with hot 357 loads to much.
The 14 was designed for target loads + p loads were not around. The 19 was designed for carry with magnum and using when necessary but using a lot of 38 spec.

[huntingsgr8]

Thoughts on these? The cast 158gr SWC http://www.hodgdonreloading.com/data/pistol?&CartridgeName=38+Special&OrderBW%5B%5D=158

6.3grs of HS6, 5.3grs of CFE Pistol

[salvadore]

I don't know if your shooter is rated for +p or not but according to B. Pearce, 6gr. of long shot under a 158gr. Oregon trail sec gives 1086fps from a 6" k-38. This is from the Oct 2016 issue of Handloader. BTW the article has a number of cast bullet 158gr loads that run more than 1000fps and a couple nearing 1100fps in +p pressures. Although it sounds like your revolver will fall apart if you use +p in it.

[huntingsgr8]

I hate to dispute someone with more practiced hands than my own, but the S&W forum had a thread on whether or not a 14-3 could be used safely with +p loads. The general consensus was yes. Though Hodgdon lists two loads in my link that go over 1000fps at normal 38 pressures. Thoughts on those?

[tazman]

Thoughts on these? The cast 158gr SWC http://www.hodgdonreloading.com/data/pistol?&CartridgeName=38+Special&OrderBW%5B%5D=158

6.3grs of HS6, 5.3grs of CFE Pistol

I have tested and chronographed CFE Pistol at 5.0 grains with 158 grain boolits in my 6" revolvers and got 950fps average with excellent accuracy. This is my favorite full power load.

[Texas by God]

If it's a good price, buy it and don't hot rod it.
It bit you because they are great revolvers for target &small game.
If you want to see how good you are with a handgun- the K38 will tell you.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

[Petrol & Powder]

I'm going to jump on board with everyone else telling you to avoid shooting +P loads in a S&W model 14.

The model 14 is a fine target gun, perhaps one of the best factory target DA revolvers ever made. Please do not abuse that gun.

If you really need speed (and I don't know what the attraction is) get a magnum revolver.

[quail4jake]

If it's a good price, buy it and don't hot rod it.
It bit you because they are great revolvers for target &small game.
If you want to see how good you are with a handgun- the K38 will tell you.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk
Ditto that! There's nothing like that K 38, mine is a 1972 and was worked at the S&W performance shop. I tried using a soft wadcutter tuned up to about 800 fps on groudhogs, it makes 'em spin, doesn't jelly 'em like the XTP but they don't run either!:bigsmyl2:

[kayala]

Western powders have recipe on their website with 158gr LSWC making 1000+ fps with True Blue out of 7.5" barrel with listed pressure of 16460 PSI.

[salvadore]

Huntington, no matter what you hear here, your forcing cone won't be shredded by cast +p loads, it won't fall apart in your hands and the barrel won't melt. A lot of the posters in here are super fonts of knowledge info, others, Maybe not.

There's a poster in here who has probably forgotten more about K frames than most of us know. Anyway he may give a knowledgeable answer.

[fecmech]

I understand the sentiments around the K-38 but my experience with mine over 40 years leads me to believe they are much less fragile than many would have you believe. Mine is a 14-3 purchased new new the 70's which I shot PPC with for a number of years. The gun came from S&W without a gas ring installed on the cylinder which required I clean the crane about every 200-300 rds which was a pain. After about 45K wadcutters, 3-4k GI jacketed ammo and 2-3k assorted reloads I sent the gun to S&W to have the gas ring installed. The repairman suggested a new barrel but all they had available were full lugged barrels which I did not want. They turned my barrel in a thread or two, recut the forcing cone and returned the gun to me. About that time I was done with PPC and liked shooting heavier loads. The Lyman 3rd Cast bullet handbook listed 4.2/Bullseye/158RN as max std pressure load at 900 fps. I tried it and it was very accurate but by today's standards that's over +P. I don't know exact figures but I shot at least 15-20K of those loads through the gun and still use them today for the 100yd Silhouette targets as they average 3-4moa@100 yds. Along with those I've shot at least 20K more of 4.2/BE and Lee 120 and 125 gr bullets. To date that gun has had somewhere north of 80K rounds through it with at least 15K of what would be considered +P. It has minimal end shake, no forcing cone problems and with the loads I mentioned above it is still very accurate. My Model 14 does not seem to be very fragile.

[Petrol & Powder]

The question is not, "Can a Model 14 be used to shoot +P loads"? The answer is yes. The question is, "why use a model 14 to shoot +p loads (or beyond +P loads as the OP suggests)" ?

I don't think the model 14 (or any other steel K-frame with a model number) is fragile. I do think that if your goal is to shoot a lot of heavy loads, there are better platforms to use.

A steel S&W K-frame with a model number is strong revolver but I see no need to beat them up.

fecmech's load of 4.2 grs of BE under a 158 gr lead bullet is a stout load but even that over +P load isn't at the 1000fps level the OP is talking about. There's a big gap between +P 38 Special and .357 magnum levels but if you're going to approach magnum pressures, why not use a magnum revolver?

I agree with Outpost75's statements from post #2

[wv109323]

Bach in the early 1980's my friend shot hunters pistol silhouette with a scoped model 14. The rams are 100 yards. He was the state champion several times. His load was 5.0 gn. of Unique with a 158 gn. cast bullet.

[salvadore]

I didn't see anything in the original post about loads above +p. The question was about shooting +p 158gr load that would give 1000 to 1100fps in his revolver. He received an answer to that plus a cornacopia of unsolicited opinions.

[Petrol & Powder]

I didn't see anything in the original post about loads above +p. The question was about shooting +p 158gr load that would give 1000 to 1100fps in his revolver. He received an answer to that plus a cornacopia of unsolicited opinions.

From the OP: "....... I do like to "push" the proverbial envelope from time to time, and I was wondering if I might be able to get a 158gr bullet to 1000fps from this gun, or possibly 1100fps? I know it's a bit much to ask of such a gun, but curiosity killed the cat. I plan to use either the Lee TL358-158-SWC, or the 358-158-RF, and cast from WW lead. "
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
While it might be possible to get a 158 gr bullet over 1000 fps and stay within acceptable +P pressures, It seems to be the consensus that it's likely to exceed +P pressures. Pushing the same bullet to 1100 fps will exceed +P pressures. So the OP didn't specifically say he wanted to exceed +P pressures but he provided parameters that would likely exceed +P pressures. He then received warnings that his hypothetical loads would be difficult or impossible to achieve within acceptable pressure levels. Those warnings may have been unsolicited but they were prudent.

[salvadore]

I'm not trying to offend anyone P&P, but if consensus meant anything everyone would still believe the world was flat. Sorry if I hurt anyone's feelings.

[Larry Gibson]

No feeling hurt here. There is essentially no structural difference in strength between a M14 and a M15......they are the same frame. The difference is simply in the grips, sights (front) and the barrel contour. When my LEO agency got the 5" M15s S&W said they were simply M14s with a 5" barrel and ramp front sight. In the early '70s with the advent of the "FBI Load" (158 LSWCHP +P) S&W stated the M15s we had were rated for the +P loads and a steady diet would pose no problems. I bought mine from the department when we switched to 4" M15s. I have fired hundreds of factory Winchester +Ps and my own +P loads and is as tight as it was when issued and just as accurate......I on the other hand am not as accurate with it as I used to be.

208728

[Petrol & Powder]

I'm not trying to offend anyone P&P, but if consensus meant anything everyone would still believe the world was flat. Sorry if I hurt anyone's feelings.
You're not offending me. You stated that "I didn't see anything in the original post about loads above +p." And I responded that the OP was clearly talking about the equivalent of +P loads even if he didn't actually use the term "+P".

The consensus that I was speaking of was the fact that most of the respondents in the thread recognized the OP was contemplating +P loads even if the OP didn't label them as +P (or actually, over +P ).

The consensus is that the pressure needed to push a 158gr bullet to over 1000 fps will likely require pressures over acceptable +P levels.
In fact, Outpost75 goes even farther and states that opinion in a very clear post early in the thread.

[huntingsgr8]

Perhaps I should clarify a few things. The bullet point structure is for clarity, not to be condescending.

-I do not yet have this revolver, as it is up for sale for a little over 400$ it has caught my eye, not to mention the feel of the gun, and its reputation.

-I'm aware of the pressure differences between the 38+P and 357, I said that performance with cast bullets (with a 158gr bullet in mind) was similar because of the limited velocity of cast bullets. See the Hodgdon Reloading Data Center for the specifics on that one.

-I'm accustomed to loading for 12 gauge, some loads give X velocity with max pressure, and some give the same velocity with a few thousand PSI less, depends on the powder. I was curious as whether or not there would be some such combination for the 38 that yielded abnormally high (for a 38 anyways) velocities while remaining within the 38's prescribed pressure limitations. I was thinking that such a load would have to be +P but found no data for +P 158 cast bullets.

-I have no attraction to high velocity whatsits or hot-rodding a little 38, but as I plan to see how well this gun can do at the 100 yard mark I was thinking a little more velocity would ensure enough bullet stability to make tumbling unlikely. Reducing drop would be a good plus too.

-See the loads at this link http://www.hodgdonreloading.com/data/pistol?&CartridgeName=38+Special&OrderBW%5B%5D=158 two of the Cast LSWC are above 1000fps. Thoughts on them?

[pmer]

Hey guys is there any difference in strength between the model 10 and the model 14/15 in plus P loadi.ng

[fecmech]

Stability will not be a problem with 158 gr bullets out of the S&W 18 3/4" twist barrel, they fly fine out to 200 yds which is the farthest I've shot them. Not much you can do about the drop except adjust your sight or hold point for 100 yds. I use two bullets when shooting Hunters Pistol Silhouette. I zero with a 120@1000fps for the 25,50 and 75 yd targets at 50 yds. That gives me about 1.5" high@25, on @50yds and 3" low@75 yds. That sight setting puts my 158@900 fps right on @ 100yds. Works out great for me.

[Outpost75]

Hey guys is there any difference in strength between the model 10 and the model 14/15 in plus P loadi.ng

Generally not. During the Bangor-Punta era and before the frames were plain carbon similar to 1050 quenched and tempered. I have no first-hand experience as to S&W metallurgy and heat treatment after mid 1980s because I never worked on the later ones, which I would certainly hope were better... By then most depts. and agencies were transitioning to 9mm autopistols...

If you want to know for sure if your revolver is +P rated get a machine shop to run a Rockwell hardness test on the top strap. This is the area which stretches and causes the gun to develop end play and loose headspace and cylinder gap, as well as the recoil plate bring peened out of square so that you need to straighten the frame...

If its hardness does not even register on the Rockwell "C" scale, don't shoot +P in it unless you want to stretch the crane to take our the end shake after about 500-1000 rounds, then you can stretch the crane maybe twice before cylinder gap increases to 0.009", at which point you would want to set the barrel back a thread to re-establish cylinder gap to the same pass 0.004/hold 0.005" it had as a new gun before proofing and before you loosened it up. Very likely in this interval the gun will have gone out of time and will need a new hand ("pawl" for you Colt or Ruger guys) fitted to correct timing. And if you really beat up the gun by shooting lots of +P or +P+ Q4070 Treasury loads in it, the locking bolt notches in the cylinder will be peened from cylinder backspin and if you don't have a new cylinder to fit, you put an oversized locking bolt or cylinder stop from Ron Power into it.

If you have a 1970s or 80s Model 19 .357 all the above also applies if you try to shoot a steady diet of full-charge .357s in it instead of a 1:10 ratio of .357 service to standard pressure .38 Special which the gun was designed for... I did that too before I learned my lesson...

Once you have all the oversized parts in the gun, you have to decide to retire it and build a wadcutter-only PPC gun out of it, which I did, or to sell the S&W and buy a Ruger which will run for 10,000 rounds of +P with no repairs or parts replacements.

[Petrol & Powder]

Outpost75 wrote: "..............or to sell the S&W and buy a Ruger which will run for 10,000 rounds of +P with no repairs or parts replacements. "

/\ OK, that put a smile on my face !! /\

The S&W K-frame is a truly remarkable example of engineering. If confined to standard pressure lead bullet 38 Special loads and given a little care, they are capable of lasting a lifetime.
As much as I admired Bill Jordan and his concept of a 357 magnum built of a K-frame, I think that concept took the K-frame a little beyond what the platform could handle in the long run. Yes, the K-frame could be made strong enough to shoot magnum rounds but we learned there was a price to be paid for long term use of magnum rounds in the K-frame.
The difference between Maximum Allowable Pressure [MAP] standard pressure 38 Special [17K] and +P 38 Special [20K] isn't nearly as great as the difference between 38 Special +P and 357 magnum [35k] but there's still a price to be paid.

I've always been impressed that Ruger could make the Service-Six that was roughly the same overall size as a K-frame and yet significantly stronger.

[FergusonTO35]

Love my 1988 Service Six! Unless you shoot only hot rod .357's the GP-100 is a step backwards.

[pmer]

My model 10 is -5. It doesn't seem like it has been abused as far cylinder gap and timing goes. I don't push it that hard but it's quite an ammo hog. Hard to put it down once I start shooting it.

[Walkingwolf]

I'm planning on investing in a very reasonably priced S&W 14-3 38 Spec in the near future. I know that these guns were built for target shooting, and that they can easily utilize loads with +P level pressures. I was tempted to get a 586, but cast bullet velocities don't vary that much between the 38+P loads, and the 357 mag. While I plan to mostly shoot standard level loads (158gr-800fps) out of this gun, I do like to "push" the proverbial envelope from time to time, and I was wondering if I might be able to get a 158gr bullet to 1000fps from this gun, or possibly 1100fps? I know it's a bit much to ask of such a gun, but curiosity killed the cat. I plan to use either the Lee TL358-158-SWC, or the 358-158-RF, and cast from WW lead.

Yes, but not wise to do a steady diet. Colt Police Positive Special, and Official Police was advertised to handle 38-44 before the 357 models of colt were brought to market. The PPS is considerably smaller than the K frame, also the post model years saw improvement in heat treating. A detective friend of mine 40 years ago carried factory 38-44 in his model 36 J frame, he did not shoot them much but the little gun handled them without any drastic changes in the gun, or that were apparent. He used the 36 in a on duty shooting at a hospital emergency room. A patient(known scumbag) took a nurse hostage with a scalpel. One shot to the pelvis brought him down shattering the pelvic bone. As a officer with a issued model 64 I carried 38-44 handloads on duty, shot just enough to know what they would do. When I turned the gun in it was like new.

If your carrying for self defense a few 38-44 are not going to cause significant wear, but should not be used as target rounds. Also with the right powders amazing velocities can be accomplished with +P loads, or slightly stronger. I am getting 900 fps out of a two inch barrel with 138 grain coated wadcutters, a slightly heavier load for my GP 4 inch yields 1200 fps, both guns the cases extract easily and there are no extreme pressure signs on the cases.

Your loads are your responsibility, so please be careful, but a couple rounds in self defense is not going to blow the gun up. If you are going to use the gun regularly for hunting, then get an L frame.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

Perhaps I should clarify a few things. The bullet point structure is for clarity, not to be condescending.

-I do not yet have this revolver, as it is up for sale for a little over 400$ it has caught my eye, not to mention the feel of the gun, and its reputation.

...SNIP
My 2¢
Seems like a no-brainer, a sweet gun and a sweet price (by todays standards).

A couple years ago, during a Police Qual shoot at my sportsman club range, they had Pepper-poppers setup, and I had a 4" S&W 38 and some of my 148gr WC reloads with 2.7gr of bullseye. I always wondered where I (or the 38 with WC) could reach out to accurately. So I started shooting at the Pepper-poppers, and after 12 rounds, I would step back 10 yards or so, and repeat, til I was too far away to consistently hit the targets...At 70 yards, I started missing some, and 80 yards I was missing most of the time.

So, my suggestion is to get the pistol, and start out with standard 38 spl loads and see what you can do at 100 yds...you may never need +p.
Good Luck.

[CASTER OF LEAD]

A steady diet of +P ammunition isn't the plan, just more of a hundred yard experiment. Would standard loads suffice? Or would they destabilize and keyhole by then?

I shoot 150gr. LSWC 'S sized to .358 after PCing them over 5.5gr. Of BR-5 (milsurp powder very similar to unique)from my 4" Taurus. Albeit a .357 mag. Weapon these .38 loads are deadly accurate at 100 yards. 6 of 6 in a cantaloupe size group everytime all the time. Love shooting my open sight pistols at distance. Lots ,and lots of practice to develop consistant habits to be accurate out that far. It is a blast. Standard 38 ammo data is more than capable of what your gonna ask of it.
Just try different stuff until you find "the load". It's a fun road to travel. I still try different stuff just because I can. Lol
Enjoy the ride. - CASTER
Disclaimer: always consult published load data. I don't recommend using my data without verification from a known source.

[dogdoc]

We cannot take any of these with us. If you wear it out, buy another. I will shoot my model 15 all day with +p. If an all steel k frame will not take +p, nothing will. Put thousands of rounds through it and it may need attention.

[dogdoc]

Save that fine model 14 for target loads and target shooting...that's what it was made for.

Buy a 357 Magnum to hot rod with.....something made for magnum, then you wont have to worry about damaging it. Heavy loads take a toll on a gun not built for it.
Besides ,life's too short to have just one revolver !
I would bet money the 14-3 is not rated for +P loads...it will be stamped on the barrel, if it's not stamped on the barrel don't shoot them in it. Better safe than sorry .
Gary

They did not stamp +p on the barrels until sometime in the 1990s none of the 70s revolver I know were stamped that yet if they were steel, they were fine with + p

[Bigslug]

For what it's worth, I've handled quite a few 14's and other K's that were out of time. How much of that was from sheer mileage, how much from Gunsmithing By Bubba or other abuse, and how much from too-hot ammo, I couldn't tell you, but if I had a clean, tight 14, I'd only be using it for wadcutter level loads, and would be pick L-frames and GP-100's for the toasty experiments.

[Petrol & Powder]

Bigslug brings up good points:

There are a lot of K-frames out there. Some are in excellent condition and some not so much.
The ones that are less than ideal could be in that state due to Bubba Gunsmithing, excessively hot loads or just sheer mileage.

For about as long as I can remember, I've had at least one S&W K-frame in my possession. Often I've owned several at once. The S&W K-frame is an outstanding DA revolver. However, it does have its limitations.

With lead bullets, standard pressure 38 Special loads and a bit of care, they will outlast most people.

Bigslug said, ".......if I had a clean, tight 14, I'd only be using it for wadcutter level loads, and would be pick L-frames and GP-100's for the toasty experiments. "
/\
Those sentiments have been expressed repeatedly in this thread and I think they are shared by many.

I do have a clean and tight S&W model 14 and I do not wish to abuse it.

I have abused K-frames in the past and I've seen many that were abused by others. I know what will happen if the guns are abused. The comments from Outpost75 concerning high pressure loads in a S&W K-frame are 100% spot on.
The K-frame is a great gun but bad things happen when you push them too far. It's no different than automotive applications. I've seen good engines and drivetrains that would give decades of yeoman like service with a little bit care and common sense. I've seen the exact same type of engines and drivetrains fail early and spectacularly due to neglect and abuse.

[Outpost75]

The same admonishment applies to J-frames as well.

Back in the day (1980s) I took a new 36-1, measured cylinder gap, headspace and endshake, as well as copper indent using the government gages. Then gun was fired with ONE BOX, a mere 50 rounds of Olin 110-grain Q4070 +P+ LE ammunition.

After firing 50 rounds of ammunition which exceeded industry +P standard by about 15% the revolver developed 0.002" end play and the cylinder gap opened from pass 0.004/hold 0.005 to pass 0.006/hold 0.007". This was only ONE BOX of "hot" ammo.

So, crane was stretched, end shake removed and gun tightened back up, with cylinder gap now 0.002" looser than when gun was new, but within spec. Changed ammo to ordinary +P Winchester X38SPD lead +P (FBI load) in it to continue the endurance test, having a designated student fire one tactical revolver course each day, clean and inspect the gun. After logging 500 rounds of full charge duty ammo end play back was back up to 0.002+ and gap exceeded factory specs, being pass 0.008"/hold 0.009".

So, the barrel was set back 1 thread, the crane was stretched again, endshake corrected again, gap restored to new factory specs gap pass 0.004/hold 0.005" so no end shake could be felt. Timing was now a bit "slow" in DA if gun was held in the hand with only weight of the gun only as drag on cylinder, so also fitted new hand and oversized cylinder stop.

OK, so no more firing +P. Gun returned to vault for training use to be shot with wadcutters only.
After a couple years, intermittent new-shooter training use logging 5000 wadcutters the gun had loosened up again, so returned it to factory for rebuild. Fitted new barrel, new crane, new cylinder, new hand, new cylinder stop, factory reblue and pretty new box with tools. Sold as "surplus" immediately when it came back... The lesson is, don't shoot very much +P in a J-frame if you want it to last, regardless of what the website says.

[Boogieman]

S&W made some K frames in 9MM. how did these stand up? 9MM pressures are much higher than 38+P.

[Outpost75]

S&W made some K frames in 9MM. how did these stand up? 9MM pressures are much higher than 38+P.

According to French armourers I spoke to, not well, which is why they went to Rugers...

[huntingsgr8]

Thanks for all the input gentlemen, you've helped a lot.

[derek45]

I recommend an L-frame

586/686

208840

208841

https://i.imgur.com/WgL5mrR.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/TNntghT.jpg

[MT Gianni]

For what it's worth, I've handled quite a few 14's and other K's that were out of time. How much of that was from sheer mileage, how much from Gunsmithing By Bubba or other abuse, and how much from too-hot ammo, I couldn't tell you, but if I had a clean, tight 14, I'd only be using it for wadcutter level loads, and would be pick L-frames and GP-100's for the toasty experiments.

I have shot a 14 until it needed retiming. The consensus is not necessarily hot loads but frequent DA shooting. The theory being that fast DA shooting wears the hand more than slower SA even SA with +P loads.

[pmer]

How would you consider the new N frames compared to the old ones. Is it true the newer ones are more durable than the older ones?

[edp2k]

> -See the loads at this link http://www.hodgdonreloading.com/data...erBW%5B%5D=158 two of the Cast LSWC are above 1000fps.
> Thoughts on them?

7.7" barrel length, not a 4" or 5" gun. Obviously a 4 or 5 " barrel will give less velocity than a 7.7" barrel.
The difference between 4" and 7.7" could be a couple hundred FPS, especially with a higher pressure round
like we are talking about.

I also find it very interesting that the velocity and pressure given for loads for the 2 "Lead Semi-WadCutter" bullets
varies significantly between the 2 bullets.
The 2nd bullet, "MEI" is a commercial cast Meister brand bullet.
I don't know what the brand/style the 1st bullet is or how it differs from the 2nd bullet.
An excerpt from that website's data for CFE Pistol powder:


158 GR. CAST LSWC ___ Hodgdon CFE Pistol 5.3 gr. 1,048 FPS 16,100 PSI
158 GR. MEI CAST LSWC Hodgdon CFE Pistol 5.0 gr. 1,029 FPS 16,700 PSI


Why does 0.3 gr more powder produce 600 PSI LESS?
It shows that different instances of guns (even of the same make and model) and
supposedly the "same" bullet (158 gr lead) can make a significant difference in velocity and pressure.

[mnewcomb59]

Getting 1000 fps with a 158-grain bullet from a 6" revolver cannot be done without exceeding industry +P pressure substantially.

Factory lead +P loads will do about 900 fps. I don't recommend shooting very much of +P in your Model 14 if you want it to last.

If high velocity is that important to you, you should sell that model 14 and get the 586...

This information is incorrect. Power Pistol will do it easily. So will Unique, HS-6, longshot and others in this burn range such as Herco.

[Outpost75]

This information is incorrect. Power Pistol will do it easily. So will Unique, HS-6, longshot and others in this burn range such as Herco.

Please post the link where I can see that these loads are pressure tested to industry standards. I think you are citing "solid" test barrel ballistics, NOT from a 4" vented test barrel simulating revolver test conditions. BIG velocity difference (about 80-100 fps) between a 4" revolver or SAAMI "vented" test barrel versus a solid 6" test barrel which the powder companies use so they can publish an inflated velocity number, which you would only get in a Contender pistol.

[mnewcomb59]

Please post the link where I can see that these loads are pressure tested to industry standards. I think you are citing "solid" test barrel ballistics, NOT from a 4" vented test barrel simulating revolver test conditions. BIG velocity difference (about 80-100 fps) between a 4" revolver or SAAMI "vented" test barrel versus a solid 6" test barrel which the powder companies use so they can publish an inflated velocity number, which you would only get in a Contender pistol.

Buffalo Bore loads a 158 lead at 1250 fps in a 6". I am not going to sit here and google information for you. You are the one making the assertion, so how about you find me proof that it can't be done? Do it yourself with the search terms "38 +p chronograph fps "power pistol" swc"

Power Pistol gets over 1000 fps in my 4" model 10 and Unique is just shy.

[Outpost75]

Buffalo Bore loads a 158 lead at 1250 fps in a 6". I am not going to sit here and google information for you. You are the one making the assertion, so how about you find me proof that it can't be done? Do it yourself with the search terms "38 +p chronograph fps "power pistol" swc"

When I worked in the firearms industry, I used personally and supervised others who worked with pressure test barrels, SAAMI reference ammunition and our group fired acceptance tests of police service ammunition daily and also conducted audit shoots of contract weapons before being released to the customer. I probably personally pressure tested over 10,000 rounds of .38 Special ammunition over a 3-year period and again that much of 9mm. I know how difficult it is to obtain satisfactory safety, reliability, accuracy and ballistic uniformity in revolver ammunition, particularly when fired in barrels shorter than 4 inches.

While you can get higher velocity and lower pressure by using slower powders there are trade-offs, like unacceptable levels of muzzle flash, unburned powder particles which cause functioning problems, which could get an officer killed, and issues with ballistic uniformity, particularly when firing in elevated or suppressed temperatures.

This is an area which I know something about. I just wanted a published source if you had one. Too many people drink the Kool-Aid without validating the results. I just didn't want people to accept advertising claims on blind faith because some are pure snake oil.

If a claim sounds too good to be true, it probably is. There is no free lunch in ammunition performance. I destructive tested enough revolvers for a living before I retired to be highly skeptical...

I'm not trying to start a urinating contest. I'm simply asking people to consider the source of a claim and try to validate it from reviewing independent test data from someone other than the buy who is trying to sell a product, or the shill gun writer who wants to get more free samples and will say anything...

[mnewcomb59]

While you can get higher velocity and lower pressure by using slower powders there are trade-offs, like unacceptable levels of muzzle flash, unburned powder particles which cause functioning problems, and issues with ballistic uniformity when firing in elevated or suppressed temperatures.

...just asking people to consider the source and try to validate from independent test data other than the buy who is trying to sell a product. Been there, done that, got the T-shirt...

So your point is that it cant be done except when it can be done, but there might be muzzle flash and powder particles. Got it.


The source is Alliant themselves. 5.3 gr of Unique or 6 grains of Power Pistol will get you 980-1020 fps in a 4" barrel. Let alone a 6" like your original claim that it can't be done.

http://smith-wessonforum.com/reloading/483284-38-spl-p-power-pistol.html

http://www.coltforum.com/forums/reloading-range-reports/46985-38-special-p-power-pistol.html

[Walkingwolf]

I trusted both Elmer Keith, and Skeeter Skelton.

[35remington]

Let me caution that a major publication devoted specifically to hand loading has recently published numerous loadings in a “special edition” in 38 Special and 380 that are really inadvisable to be shot in the guns they were fired in despite being “within pressure guidelines.” This applies to the other calibers as well.

For instance, 1150 FPS from a 95 grain bullet from a Ruger LCP 380 is really not smart. Malfunctions become greatly more likely and battering of the gun increases greatly since slide velocity is a function of bullet velocity.

Don’t believe everything you read. Think before emulating.

No one has disproven the finding that lower powered loads make a gun last longer. The cost of flaunting this absolutely proven principle is on you.

Your choice, your cost.

[Larry Gibson]

Well I have pressure tested +P loads, factory and my own, in a "solid" test barrel to wit a Contender barrel. The loads using Unique under the 358156 and TL358-158-SWCs were within SAAMI 38 SPL +P standards. The velocity from the "solid" test barrel was not given because, as mentioned, the barrel/cylinder gap and freebore of the cylinder throats will cause the velocity from a revolver to be different.

Those pressure tested loads to within safe SAAMI 38 SPL +P pressures were then chronographed in a 5" M15 as previously posted and a 6" Ruger Security Six. The +P load with Unique gave over 1000 fps from the Ruger 6" barreled revolver. As I mentioned to the OP there is no reason such safe +P pressure level loads will not also reach 1000 fps in his 6" barreled M14 revolver.

[Walkingwolf]

Their choice...

[Larry Gibson]

edp2k

I also find it very interesting that the velocity and pressure given for loads for the 2 "Lead Semi-WadCutter" bullets
varies significantly between the 2 bullets.
The 2nd bullet, "MEI" is a commercial cast Meister brand bullet.
I don't know what the brand/style the 1st bullet is or how it differs from the 2nd bullet.
An excerpt from that website's data for CFE Pistol powder:


158 GR. CAST LSWC ___ Hodgdon CFE Pistol 5.3 gr. 1,048 FPS 16,100 PSI
158 GR. MEI CAST LSWC Hodgdon CFE Pistol 5.0 gr. 1,029 FPS 16,700 PSI


Why does 0.3 gr more powder produce 600 PSI LESS?
It shows that different instances of guns (even of the same make and model) and
supposedly the "same" bullet (158 gr lead) can make a significant difference in velocity and pressure.

A variance of 19 fps and 600 psi is really not a "significant difference". You can easily have that much variance in fps and psi in back to back tests of the exact same ammunition in the same test fixture/firearm. Also the use of 2 different bullets even of the same weight can easily cause more variance than that. The variables of different lube, different alloy, different bearing surface, different seating depth along with others cause the difference.

Anytime you see a pressure figure quoted you must understand there are +/- pressures also and what you see posted is the "average". It is the same for velocities posted. There is always a +/- or ES (Extreme Spread) associated with the average figure. SAAMI has allowable +/- ranges (it's complicated btw so don't ask for a set number).

[Larry Gibson]

No one has disproven the finding that lower powered loads make a gun last longer. The cost of flaunting this absolutely proven principle is on you.

Your choice, your cost.

Certainly don't disagree with that. Shooting magnum pressure level loads will certainly shoot a barrel out faster than cat's sneeze target level loads. Those who want to dance should be willing to pay the band.

[35remington]

The other point I am trying to make is that guns are often if not always designed for a specific velocity with a certain bullet weight. When this is exceeded gun wear increases greatly even if loads are “within pressure guidelines.”

Don’t kid yourself. If one is getting 280 ft lbs out of a 9 ounce pistol that really should be running at 180-190 max, something is gonna give out sooner than you want and a malfunction when you most need it becomes an ever increasing possibility.

Running mild steel or aluminum revolvers, especially if small framed, as hard as “pressure guidelines” might suggest you can go is a practice for those with deeper pockets and a greater sense of abandon than I possess.

I would like to think I have learned something during my time here. This is one of those things. I find standard pressure loads amply fast for any reasonable 38 Special use.

[FergusonTO35]

I view the essential strengths of the .38 Special to be accuracy, wide variety of available guns, and heavy for caliber boolit in a variety of styles. You don't have to load it to the redline to enjoy these attributes.

[tazman]

I long ago, gave up trying to make a magnum out of every cartridge and gun that I own.
I have never blown any guns up but I have seen quite a number of blown primers during my early reloading years.
If the gun I have is not powerful enough to get the job done, I get a bigger gun.
I dearly love the 38 special for it's usefulness, ease of use, ease of loading for, and that they are not difficult to find.

[Outpost75]

No one has disproven the finding that lower powered loads make a gun last longer. The cost of flaunting this absolutely proven principle is on you.

Your choice, your cost.

Certainly don't disagree with that. Shooting magnum pressure level loads will certainly shoot a barrel out faster than cat's sneeze target level loads. Those who want to dance should be willing to pay the band.

Bravissimo!

[Low Budget Shooter]

mnewcomb, please consider that Outpost75 has "been there and done that," and has spent years writing up the findings from his vast experience and giving it out to us for free. He is probably the single most knowledgeable person alive on how to get the best possible performance out of 38 Special ammo and guns. In future, I hope you will take what he posts more seriously than you are doing at present.

[mnewcomb59]

mnewcomb, please consider that Outpost75 has "been there and done that," and has spent years writing up the findings from his vast experience and giving it out to us for free. He is probably the single most knowledgeable person alive on how to get the best possible performance out of 38 Special ammo and guns. In future, I hope you will take what he posts more seriously than you are doing at present.

That is all well and cool but it doesn't change the fact that his info was wrong and that he dug his heels in, relying
on ethos rather than evidence to argue for his initial wrong point. A smart person adapts their worldview to the evidence presented. In his shoes I would have said " oh wow I guess Unique and Power Pistol can get 1000 fps in a 6" barrel. I guess what I really meant is that you can't get 1000 fps with fast powder. Thanks for putting forth the effort to find that info for me."

[35remington]

Ask yourself if someone who advocates caution in handoading for older revolvers is doing anyone a disservice. If advice keeps you out of trouble and makes the firearm perform safely and effectively for frequent use, is that not clearly good advice?

At least give that some thought.

[derek45]

4" S&W 19-4

38 special loads

158gr coated average fps chrony data

4.8gr w231 870fps +P

-----------------

4.3 titegroup 905fps +P

-------------------

5.4 powerpistol 896fps ( not +P )

-----------------------

6.6 HS6 904fps +P

-------------------

5.4 CFE-p 914fps +P

-------------

6.0gr power pistol 936fps +P

-----------------



https://i.imgur.com/gLh3IaY.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/7BjwFHN.jpg

[35remington]

FWIW, the 6/power pistol load is Plus P. The 5.4 grain charge is not. 4.3 Titegroup is Plus P, the W231 charge is either upper end standard pressure or lightly Plus P. Cannot speak from firsthand experience about the others.

Food for thought.

[derek45]

FWIW, the 6/power pistol load is Plus P. The 5.4 grain charge is not. 4.3 Titegroup is Plus P, the W231 charge is either upper end standard pressure or lightly Plus P. Cannot speak from firsthand experience about the others.

Food for thought.

yep

edited post to add the "+P" info

thanks
Derek
:drinks:

[Outpost75]

Ask yourself if someone who advocates caution in handoading for older revolvers is doing anyone a disservice. If advice keeps you out of trouble and makes the firearm perform safely and effectively for frequent use, is that not clearly good advice?

At least give that some thought.

Some people need to learn through personal experience.

209022

[35remington]

One time, when working on a truck in my earlier years of ownership, my dad demonstrated a way to reassemble the springs on the drum brake assembly with little apparent strain (for those of you that have not done this yourself, the springs are under a LOT of tension).

Having witnessed all that, I promptly had to try my own way of doing it, which failed by any comparison.

Whereupon my father was compelled to comment. He said, “You know, it never fails to amaze me when someone who has never done something before thinks he knows more than someone who has.”

I had to reflect on that awhile.

[vzerone]

4" S&W 19-4

38 special loads

158gr coated average fps chrony data

4.8gr w231 870fps +P

-----------------

4.3 titegroup 905fps +P

-------------------

5.4 powerpistol 896fps ( not +P )

-----------------------

6.6 HS6 904fps +P

-------------------

5.4 CFE-p 914fps +P

-------------

6.0gr power pistol 936fps +P

-----------------



https://i.imgur.com/gLh3IaY.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/7BjwFHN.jpg

Your range setup sure looks like Hickok45's range. I thought for a second this was going to be one of his videos!!

[tazman]

One time, when working on a truck in my earlier years of ownership, my dad demonstrated a way to reassemble the springs on the drum brake assembly with little apparent strain (for those of you that have not done this yourself, the springs are under a LOT of tension).

Having witnessed all that, I promptly had to try my own way of doing it, which failed by any comparison.

Whereupon my father was compelled to comment. He said, “You know, it never fails to amaze me when someone who has never done something before thinks he knows more than someone who has.”

I had to reflect on that awhile.

My father owned a used car parts lot for a long time while I was growing up. While I helped him there, I took off and reassembled a lot of drum brakes. Your story brought back some memories froma long time ago for me.
As to your father's statement, he knew what he was talking about.

[35remington]

He did know what he was talking about. Despite not listening to his advice, after he made his comment I actually did something smart and kept my mouth shut. This may have given him some hope I was not completely stupid in a repetitive sense.

[JBinMN]

Your range setup sure looks like Hickok45's range. I thought for a second this was going to be one of his videos!!

I thought the same thing..
LOL
;)

-----------------------------------
35Remington & tazman,


You fellers talking about your Dads reminded me of this quote:


“When I was a boy of 14, my father was so ignorant I could hardly stand to have the old man around. But when I got to be 21, I was astonished at how much the old man had learned in seven years.”


― Mark Twain

[Walkingwolf]

If the OP loads 1,000fps loads is he breaking any laws? I only care for yes, or no answers because nothing else matters in self reliance, self responsibility, and personal choice.

[derek45]

LOLOL Ya'all hold muh beer n watch this

:LOL:

[Larry Gibson]

Please, can we understand the OP only wants 38 SPL +P level loads, not 357 magnum level loads.

If Elmer Keith and Dick Casull had listened to half the prohibition sentiments in this thread where would the state of handgunning be today? A S&W M14 is a quality 38 SPL not made to any less a standard than a M15. M15's are rated for +P ammunition. The OP is not asking to make it into a 357 magnum or use it as such.

[vzerone]

I read the OP's post a few times over. What I have gathered is he's, in his words, mostly going to shoot the 38 Special loads, and dabble occasionally with the 38 Special +P loads. I just wonder if the +P loads will entice him and he would end up shooting them more and more. There is a lot you can do with the regular 38 Special loads, the caliber isn't a pop gun after all. The Model 14 in 38 Special is a wonderful revolver. It could last you a life time of shooting. I have a both and I shoot 38 Special loads the most. I don't see the 357 loads for just target shooting or plinking, only for hunting, which BTW 38 Special loads will kill groundhogs and such just fine. I've ended up with mid-range cast loads in my 357's.

[tazman]

I use midrange loads in my 357 as well. 13.5-14.0 grains of 4227 under a 158 grain boolit shoots very nicely in my 357 guns.
For 95% of my revolver shooting, I use 38 special.

[dubber123]

Please, can we understand the OP only wants 38 SPL +P level loads, not 357 magnum level loads.

If Elmer Keith and Dick Casull had listened to half the prohibition sentiments in this thread where would the state of handgunning be today? A S&W M14 is a quality 38 SPL not made to any less a standard than a M15. M15's are rated for +P ammunition. The OP is not asking to make it into a 357 magnum or use it as such.

Thanks for this. I have done my fair share of careful experimenting, and still have all my digits, and learned a bit along the way. My old M10 somehow survived 35,000 rounds of a very healthy hand load in my teenage days and remains tight and accurate. Cleaning and oil does wonders in keeping things running smoothly.

[35remington]

Let us more accurately target the advice based on commentary from the OPs first post. There is in fact a large difference between 38+P and 357 loads in terms of power. 1100 FPS with a 158 in 38 Special is asking for too much. If you want to “push the envelope” as you stated, get a 357 if reasonable 38 Special loads do not have enough power.

[Three-Fifty-Seven]

... :)

[Walkingwolf]

What do you consider a wide margin, double the fps, triple, a couple hundred fps. Your idea of a margin can be completely different from the OP. Contrary to tv, and movies handguns do not knock people off their feet, or send them flying through the air. Small caliber rifles do not either. Buffalo Bore ammo in +P is close to fps of other brands of factory ammo.

I don't understand why so many gun people try to push their standards on other people.

[Three-Fifty-Seven]

... ;)

[Walkingwolf]

Lyman #4 lists a 160gr boolit at 1463 fps ... not something a 38 +p rated gun should be digesting ... ;)

That is about 300fps higher than a buffalo bore +P load, and that is not how fast factory loads clock. The OP did not even state he was looking to get 357 velocity, or anything close to 1400 fps. Dontcha think you are derailing the train just a might bit.

IIRC the OP was looking at getting 1100 fps, which is very possible from +P loads.

[derek45]

Has anyone chronographed 38 special +p 158 to 1000fps from a 4"

I don't think it can be done, without exceeding +p pressures

My +p data, posted above, shows 900fps or a bit more is more reasonable.

.

[Outpost75]

Has anyone chronographed 38 special +p 158 to 1000fps from a 4"

I don't think it can be done, without exceeding +p pressures

My +p data, posted above, shows 900fps or a bit more is more reasonable.

.

That's what I said, but some people need to urinate on the electric fence for themselves, shoot their gun loose, and pay a gunsmith to fix what they might have learned, or not, from it.

[salvadore]

The OP wanted to know if he could shoot +p 158gr .38 spec. to 1000fps in his 6" model-14. Not should he get his shooter Rockwell tested, check with French armours, pressure check 10,000 .38 rounds etc. I can appreciate the safety first crowd when not talking about shredded forcing cones. Like Larry Gibson asked, where would we be if Dick and Elmer had decided they wanted be safety engineers when they grew up? BTW OP, the answer is still yes.

[dogdoc]

The difference be 38spl and 38spl +p is only 3000 psi. I think I will go load and shoot a few hundred +p to see if I can loosen up my model 15. I doubt my model 15 will know the difference. I hate mouse fart loads!

[Walkingwolf]

From Midway website, 158 grain semi wadcutter +P Buffalo Bore

S&W mod. 60, 2 inch- 1040 fps (379 ft. lbs.)
S&W mod. 66, 2.5 inch- 1059 fps (393 ft. lbs.)
Ruger SP101, 3 inch- 1143 fps (458 ft. lbs.)
S&W Mt. Gun, 4 inch- 1162 fps (474 ft. lbs.)

https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1001516465/buffalo-bore-ammunition-38-special-p-158-grain-lead-semi-wadcutter-hollow-point-gas-check-box-of-20


https://youtu.be/whzFbIlipsY


The difference be 38spl and 38spl +p is only 3000 psi. I think I will go load and shoot a few hundred +p to see if I can loosen up my model 15. I doubt my model 15 will know the difference. I hate mouse fart loads!

And here is the great thing, this is still the USA, and you can legally do it. No matter who cries about it.

[Walkingwolf]

Keep in mind the LCR 357 only has a 1.87 inch barrel.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rh5hfPhfudU

[Outpost75]

Bufdalo Bore does not follow SAAMI test procedures and I expect if they were tested in a barrel maintainex at industry standards, you would find either that their actual velocities were lower than advertised or the pressures were higher. In none of the YouTube videos shown is the chronograph calibrated to reference ammo, so the numbers cannot be relied upon. Trolls flame away. There is no free lunch.

[Walkingwolf]

Bufdalo Bore does not follow SAAMI test procedures and I expect if they were tested in a barrel maintainex at industry standards, you would find either that their actual velocities were lower than advertised or the pressures were higher. In none of the YouTube videos shown is the chronograph calibrated to reference ammo, so the numbers cannot be relied upon. Trolls flame away. There is no free lunch.

I believe the videos, many of them, show that velocities are matching their claims. I have heard of no guns blown up using their ammo, in FACT they test with the same guns, OVER, and OVER again. I would not use their ammo for target ammo, but the nonsense that people are going to blow up because they carry it for self defense is unfair, untrue, and snobbery.

The OP's question was answered, and proven to be yes, that is all he asked. It in the long run is HIS decision, everybody, including you, and me will have to live with it. OK by me since I do not lose sleep over internet gun issues. If he shoots 1100 fps I am fine with it, if he decides not to I am fine with it. Live, and let live!

[Three-Fifty-Seven]

..! ;)

[35remington]

He did mention “pushing the envelope”which is inadvisable. He also wanted to chase 1100fps with handloads using a 158 which is inadvisable. There is a substantial difference in pressure between 38 Plus P and 357 ( 20,000 psi versus 35,000)and a very substantial difference in velocity.

He was rightly advised to get a 357 if he wanted to hot rod. None of the above is reason to suggest that pushing a 38 as hard as you can to meet some preconceived velocity level is a good idea. At some point reasonable ideas should predominate as a matter of common sense.

No one said the guns were going to blow up. What was said was a diet of loads hotter than were prudent were not smart when speaking of the gun’s longevity. In that vein, suggesting that he tone the loads down to a reasonable level is simple common sense.

And not a very arguable point. Its truth is pretty evident.

[Walkingwolf]

Obviously you do not recall correctly!

I posted the OP in my post #87 ... or you can go look at post #1 ...

Don't just cherry pick info ... he claimed the reason he was considering the model 14 38 special was BECAUSE he didn't see much difference from 38 to 357 ...

I'm not the one derailing the train or thread! ;)

Read what you have just posted, HE didn't see much difference, HIS perspective NOT yours.

[Walkingwolf]

He did mention “pushing the envelope”which is inadvisable. He also wanted to chase 1100fps with handloads using a 158 which is inadvisable. There is a substantial difference in pressure between 38 Plus P and 357 ( 20,000 psi versus 35,000)and a very substantial difference in velocity.

He was rightly advised to get a 357 if he wanted to hot rod. None of the above is reason to suggest that pushing a 38 as hard as you can to meet some preconceived velocity level is a good idea. At some point reasonable ideas should predominate as a matter of common sense.

No one said the guns were going to blow up. What was said was a diet of loads hotter than were prudent were not smart when speaking of the gun’s longevity. In that vein, suggesting that he tone the loads down to a reasonable level is simple common sense.

And not a very arguable point. Its truth is pretty evident.


1100 fps is easy to get safely in a 38+P, it can be done with several powders without going over the 20,000 PSI pressure. It is his choice, he asked a question, AND it WAS answered, I doubt he is still reading this thread. Some people are just PO'd that the answer which is clearly YES does not bide with their internet command syndrome(ICS). Let me repeat it is HIS choice whichever way he decides to go. Maybe if you feel that strongly you should PM him, and DEMAND he follow your advice.

[Three-Fifty-Seven]

... but, he did ask for our opinions ...

[Walkingwolf]

Maybe he just didn't know where to look ... ;)

Agreed that it his ultimately HIS choice ... but, he did ask for our opinions ...

And those opinions have been given, and he posted a thank you. IOW he probably has already made his choice, I support him either way. I see no gain from trying to control others, in fact I think it drives people away. Most likely he made his decision before even posting, but was just looking for validation. I doubt he is even reading the thread anymore.

These threads about ammo always turn into "do it my way, or hit the highway" are disasters waiting to happen. There are people who come to the internet for entertainment, and seeking knowledge, then there are those that are trying to control others. It is the same reaction when discussing pocket carry, serpa holsters, type of handgun, and so on. There are always a couple that come unhinged because others do not bow.

[Three-Fifty-Seven]

... :)

[Walkingwolf]

So ... why do you keep posting then?

;)





BTW ... I never told the OP what to do ... I suggested a real cast boolits manual, and that he may be happier with a 357 ... that is all ... :)

Because I can. YOU may be happier with a 357, he might be happy with the gun he wanted, or not. Why do you keep going on about it yourself?

Here is the OP again read it carefully.


I'm planning on investing in a very reasonably priced S&W 14-3 38 Spec in the near future. I know that these guns were built for target shooting, and that they can easily utilize loads with +P level pressures. I was tempted to get a 586, but cast bullet velocities don't vary that much between the 38+P loads, and the 357 mag. While I plan to mostly shoot standard level loads (158gr-800fps) out of this gun, I do like to "push" the proverbial envelope from time to time, and I was wondering if I might be able to get a 158gr bullet to 1000fps from this gun, or possibly 1100fps? I know it's a bit much to ask of such a gun, but curiosity killed the cat. I plan to use either the Lee TL358-158-SWC, or the 358-158-RF, and cast from WW lead.

Let me see if I can simplify this for you, he is going to buy the 14, I would put money on it. He is going to shoot it, maybe occasionally with some warm ammo. He can get a NEW current production 357 anytime after, and probably will. Not many of us here would pass on a 14-3 in good condition for a reasonable price, I would be surprised if even you would.

There is no doubt shooting any gun puts wear on it, like any equipment has a service life. Certain things can shorten the service life on any piece of equipment, like drag racing a stock production car would on the weekends. Would I pass on vintage Falcon with a V-8, I doubt it if I could get it for a decent price, many people would race it, they do it every weekend. Many people can buy a Hellcat, but the vintage Falcon, or similar do not come around everyday.

[Three-Fifty-Seven]

fun!.

[ShooterAZ]

Please keep things civil here guys.

[HATCH]

Play nicely please......

[35remington]

Someone is getting much too upset about this. Good information has been forwarded. It is personal choice from here on out.

[JBinMN]

Unsubscribing. Good info took a walk a while back. The :coffeecom got cold & the :popcorn: got stale...
:(

Thanks! for the tips earlier though....

[ironhead7544]

I recently chroned a box of 158 gr LSWC +P ammo from a 4 inch S&W 38 Special. Averaged 905 fps.

The Speer #13 manual shows a 158 gr lead Power Pistol load that goes 948 fps from their 6" M14, standard pressure. The listed +P loads goes 1037 fps.

If you want to shoot a lot of +P loads, I would look for a 6" M19/66. With the M14, I would use my standard load, a 158 gr lead boolit and the factory listed load of WW231. Very accurate and the revolver should last for many years. About 850 fps from a 6" barrel.

JMHO.

[robertbank]

Up until recently IDPA's minimum PF was 125. To achieve this with factory ammo folks had to buy +P ammo. The PF was recently reduced to 105 which was the mid range for most factory 38spl. I understand IDPA tested over 19 brands of common 38spl ammo and found it ranged from 95 to 117. (PF = Vel x weight of bullet). To make PF using lead 160 gr bullets I used 4.1 gr of PB. This equaled to 831 fps and a PF of 133 out of my 4.2" GP-100.

Take Care

Bob

[kmrra]

I use HP$* in all my pistol load that will allow it , seams to be a good all aroung powder and it cheaper , but then I use it just for plinking loads m Ive had really good luck with that powder

[ddixie884]

Fun, Fun, Fun............

[smkummer]

Just wanted to add my .02. Used a lot of unique at 5.something grains for my plus P 38 loads with a lee 158 SWC. Changed to 7.1 grains Win. 540 as I came into a few lbs. of it for cheap.

And yes, it’s my 100 yard steel plate load as it shoots flat at 900 plus FPS out of my medium frame Colts. Life is good.

[zarrinvz24]

While this argument has lay dormant for some time, I would wonder what the true difference between 900 and 1K FPS is downrange? Likely not much. Its the same when comparing screaming .357 ammo with magtech 1250. Is the result going to be that different?

[huntingsgr8]

IIRC The difference in drop at 100 yards between an MV of 850fps and 1000fps is only a few inches. I did manage to get groups in the 1 foot range offhand at that distance with great regularity, though 148gr hbwc's do not remain stable past 75 yards or so. My groups also shrank considerably once I picked up a model 27 and started running full power loads through that. I should also add that my actual chronographed muzzle velocities were invariably 100-150fps slower than those in the load data published by Hodgdon.

[robertbank]

Ask yourself if someone who advocates caution in handoading for older revolvers is doing anyone a disservice. If advice keeps you out of trouble and makes the firearm perform safely and effectively for frequent use, is that not clearly good advice?

At least give that some thought.

Naw far more important to pee on an electric fence before having a read on what old Ben Franklin learned about kites in an eclectic storm.

The 38spl is what it is and is also what it isn't. Personally I enjoy loading 158gr to 200 gr bullets in my Model 10 without removing useful years from my wrists. Where is my buddy Felix, BruceB and....

Take Care

Bob
Some of the newer members ought to do some searches. Try "Felix" for starters, enjoy the 5K-10K+ posters while you can

[Char-Gar]

I am a giant fan of the 38 Special round and the revolvers built for it. I stated my load preference early on in this thread. Folks that wish to push the pressure red line are free to do so, but there is one mechanical truth none of us can escape. When a revolver recoils, the internal parts gnash and bash together. The greater the recoil, the greater the battering and gnashing. The battering and gnashing will sooner or later render the revolver unserviceable. How soon that occurs is largely up to the guy that loads and shoots the revolver. This is a key factor in how I load and shoot the 38 Special, or any revolver for that matter. Everybody gets to make that decision for himself. How I do things is not THE WAY, it is just my way.

Addendum: Some years back, when the RCMP used 5" Smith Model 10s, they had a 158 grain lead hollow point load going 1k fps, or so it was reported. I thought that might be a good idea, so I developed a load using the Lyman 358456 GC HP (soft alloy)going an honest 1K fps. I loaded three hundred rounds, boxed them, labeled them and set them on a shelf. I fired a total of six rounds just because and the others 294 rounds are still there, should the spirit ever move me. This far the spirit have moved me to keep a good Colt Government Model by my elbow, loaded with Winchester 230 grain JHP rounds for social purposes.

[Hi-Speed]

I have chronographed the following 38 Spl +P 158 gr LSWC loads in my Ruger BH 4 5/8 in:

1. 5.6 grs Power Pistol avg. 949 fps
2. 6.0 grs Power Pistol avg. 1,019 fps

Loads were from Speer published data.

[Kosh75287]

From a 6" K38, I'd BET that both of the loads you list are 1000+ f/s performers.
To answer one of the questions posed, the diff between 900 f/s and 1000 f/s from a .38 at 100 yards is about 2" of drop. At 50 yards it's considerably less. That's tighter than I can hold with any revolver at either range.
Even so, greater velocity tends to simplify many matters in handgunning, if the bullet weight can be kept constant or nearly so. For most purposes, I'd rather have 158 gr. at 1000 f/s than a 110 gr. at 1250 f/s. I HAVE been accused of being too conservative about such things, but I also know what's worked for me.

[Outpost75]

Barrel-cylinder gap is as important as barrel length. A S&W Model 14-3 set up for target wadcutter would generally leave the factory with a cylinder gap of pass 0.007/ hold 0.008 to mitigate against lead deposits from firing wadcutter ammo from binding cylinder rotation. A duty gun intended for use with jacketed service loads would normally be assembled to pass 0.004/ hold 0.005, resulting in a Delta-V of. about +30 fps with wadcutter and +50 fps with +P comparing guns of same barrel length with min. vs. max. gap.

These days it is common to find a new in box S&W with barrel-cylinder gap of 0.010" which never would have shipped in my day. My 1964 Colt Official Police with 0.004" gap consistently gives higher velocity than my buddy's 6" S&W 14. My 1929 6-inch Colt OP with similar 0.004" gap produces 1000 fps with Saeco #348 146-grain DEWC with 3.5 grains of Bullseye. The tighter .355 groove diameter in the Colts gives a slight velocity advantage over the .358+ S&W also.

[huntingsgr8]

I never came close to the published velocities out of my 14-3. I ended up about 100-150fps behind on average. I think the only time I went over 1000fps with a 158 was with some Longshot, and possibly again with a 4F bp load I tried once. I now shoot 148 plated HBWC's exclusively from my 38's, and powder coated cast 158's from my 357 at full velocity with good results and very little leading. Though I haven't been out in some time.

[35remington]

Interesting. From my made in 1953 Smith M and P four inch 3.5 grains Bullseye and a 148 WC gets 870-890 fps depending upon temperature which I’m quite satisfied with. This is top end standard pressure and not Plus P and will do anything that needs doing.

Given the potential of lead bullets and standard pressure loads which give fully adequate service to any purpose I have for a four or even two inch 38, standard pressure 38 is all I use anymore. I treat my aluminum 638 very gently and no Plus P shooting of even infrequent use happens except rarely. From the 1.875” barrel about 810 fps is the max velocity obtainable using standard pressure limits from a 158 SWC or RN/RNFP and in a light aluminum snubby it is the most I can manage well in repeat fire. In truth less power is more manageable yet. On two legged vermin penetration is still vastly adequate.

[huntingsgr8]

I was nearer to the listed velocities with faster powder IIRC, Clays, than I was with CFE pistol or Longshot. I might have been using CCI primers with loads that called for Winchester at the time however...

[gunther]

How about looking for a Security Six?

[35 Whelen]

Either 7.3 gr. of Blue Dot or 10.0 gr. of 2400 with a 160-ish gr.cast SWCHP (both +P loads) yielded 1000 fps out of all of my 4" K Frames which are three Model 10's and a Model 15.

35W

[Froogal]

I'm planning on investing in a very reasonably priced S&W 14-3 38 Spec in the near future. I know that these guns were built for target shooting, and that they can easily utilize loads with +P level pressures. I was tempted to get a 586, but cast bullet velocities don't vary that much between the 38+P loads, and the 357 mag. While I plan to mostly shoot standard level loads (158gr-800fps) out of this gun, I do like to "push" the proverbial envelope from time to time, and I was wondering if I might be able to get a 158gr bullet to 1000fps from this gun, or possibly 1100fps? I know it's a bit much to ask of such a gun, but curiosity killed the cat. I plan to use either the Lee TL358-158-SWC, or the 358-158-RF, and cast from WW lead.

For what it's worth, my Smith and Wesson 642 airweight .38 snubby is MUCH more enjoyable and considerably more accurate when loaded with MILD ammo. such as a 158 grain LRN over 4 grains of trail Boss. Those +P loads do nothing more than create more recoil and make more noise. If the load is not accurate, what good is it?

[robertbank]

Fellas this thread started five years ago. FWIW I never saw much use in chasing max loadings unless there was clear evidence improved accuracy resulted. Some max loads do, most don't from my experience. That said much depends on ones tolerance for recoil and muzzle blast. I have some but not a lot. I have a Model 10 for range plinking in 5" and a GP-100/686 No Dash for serious concerns and playing IDPA. Love my revolvers but play more with my pistols oddly enough.

Take Care

Bob

[georgerkahn]

Fellas this thread started five years ago. FWIW I never saw much use in chasing max loadings unless there was clear evidence improved accuracy resulted. Some max loads do, most don't from my experience. That said much depends on ones tolerance for recoil and muscle blast. I have some but not a lot. I have a Model 10 for range plinking in 5" and a GP-100/686 No Dash for serious concerns and playing IDPA. Love my revolvers but play more with my pistols oddly enough.

Take Care

Bob

I concur with robertbank, except that the older I get (a good thing?) the more I seem to favour revolvers over pistols for all except Bullseye-type competition. I felt compelled to complement the post with an incident I witnessed at range several weeks back. To wit, a young fellow experienced extreme difficulty opening cylinder and subsequent case extraction from his (Taurus brand) .38 S&W Special revolver.
He was gifted the (reloaded) ammo from a (his) trusted friend who regularly shot same in his wheel gun. Imho, the ammo he used was waaaay too hot for his revolver! I'd guess -- best I can do -- that the friend was loading "+p" loads with fellow's Taurus not up to the task?
Mentioned was "recoil and muzzle blast" -- let me add the inherent danger of using any loads of greater pressures than the SPECIFIC firearm was built to handle! I provided a brass rod to tap cases out of kid's cylinder and allmost gave him a handful of mid-range .38's I had, but rethought it and instead suggested he take his revolver to a competent gunsmith and have it checked out -- and if OK, to then shoot only factory or loaded to safe levels for HIS revolver ammo. (Much to my (pleasant) surprise I was thanked; and, lad said he will heed my advise.)
A (late) friend used to paint his "+P+ cases with a blue Sharpie so they wouldn't get mixed in... just a thought...

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

Fellas this thread started five years ago. FWIW I never saw much use in chasing max loadings unless there was clear evidence improved accuracy resulted. Some max loads do, most don't from my experience. That said much depends on ones tolerance for recoil and muzzle blast. I have some but not a lot. I have a Model 10 for range plinking in 5" and a GP-100/686 No Dash for serious concerns and playing IDPA. Love my revolvers but play more with my pistols oddly enough.

Take Care

Bob
Besides improved accuracy, which is probably unlikely...I'd say if a fella was gonna carry a small 38 revolver, he might want to seek out a MAX +p+ type of load with a heavy flat nose projectile for self-defense proposes.
That's my 2¢

[robertbank]

Besides improved accuracy, which is probably unlikely...I'd say if a fella was gonna carry a small 38 revolver, he might want to seek out a MAX +p+ type of load with a heavy flat nose projectile for self-defense proposes.
That's my 2¢

Or reconsider his options. 10 x 9MM = or> than 6x 38spl in any configuration I can think of in a similar sized package. At the very least you can miss more often...:>)

Take Care

Bob

[downzero]

I don't see what the use would be in hot-rodding an antique 38 Special when there are magnum revolvers out there. And contrary to the original (5 years ago) posting, 357 Magnum is a LOT more powerful than 38 Special, even when pushed into +p territory. I have both J frames and i guarantee you can tell the difference if I load 4 38s and one even modestly loaded magnum in the same cylinder, even if I use the same bullet in both.

[Jtarm]

Fellas this thread started five years ago. FWIW I never saw much use in chasing max loadings unless there was clear evidence improved accuracy resulted. Some max loads do, most don't from my experience. That said much depends on ones tolerance for recoil and muzzle blast. I have some but not a lot. I have a Model 10 for range plinking in 5" and a GP-100/686 No Dash for serious concerns and playing IDPA. Love my revolvers but play more with my pistols oddly enough.

Take Care

Bob

I never noticed this thread before.

The very first reply (by Outpost75) should have closed the book on the subject.

The .357 magnum exists for a reason: so you don’t drop a 30,000+ PSI round into a gun designed for half that pressure.

[robertbank]

I never noticed this thread before.

The very first reply (by Outpost75) should have closed the book on the subject.

The .357 magnum exists for a reason: so you don’t drop a 30,000+ PSI round into a gun designed for half that pressure.

Exactly

Take Care

Bob

[35 Whelen]

I own a 4" Security Six .357 and four 4" K-Frame .38 Specials. Because of where I live, I never go out of the house without one of the .38's (rattlesnakes, stray dogs, rattlesnakes, coyotes, rattlesnakes, skunks, etc.) loaded with a 158 gr. cast SWC running just a bit over 900 fps. Very accurate load. I like these revolvers because they're trim and a full 6 oz. lighter than the Ruger. When the need arises for self defense situations, I load them with the load I mentioned above which is a 160 +/- gr. cast SWCHP running a bit over 1000 fps.

I've never understood why folks carry heavy revolvers such as .357's and .44 Magnums then load them with Special loads. Seems more practical to me to carry the smaller, lighter revolvers and load them with heavier loads on the occasions they're needed, which in my case is rare.

35W

[robertbank]

I own a 4" Security Six .357 and four 4" K-Frame .38 Specials. Because of where I live, I never go out of the house without one of the .38's (rattlesnakes, stray dogs, rattlesnakes, coyotes, rattlesnakes, skunks, etc.) loaded with a 158 gr. cast SWC running just a bit over 900 fps. Very accurate load. I like these revolvers because they're trim and a full 6 oz. lighter than the Ruger. When the need arises for self defense situations, I load them with the load I mentioned above which is a 160 +/- gr. cast SWCHP running a bit over 1000 fps.

I've never understood why folks carry heavy revolvers such as .357's and .44 Magnums then load them with Special loads. Seems more practical to me to carry the smaller, lighter revolvers and load them with heavier loads on the occasions they're needed, which in my case is rare.

35W

For competitions such as IDPA the larger frame revolvers ir 686 or GP-100 have bigger cylinders and the wider arch of the crane allow for faster reloads. That is one reason why I have both. The other is the 38spl fully loaded might only approach the bottom end of .357mag loads. The 39spl is what it is and the .357Mag takes the "is" to another level.

Take Care
Bob

[Hi-Speed]

I don’t own 38 Spl handguns anymore…only 357 Magnums. My standard loads around here are 38 Spl +P with 155-160 gr bullets. Yea, I also venture into the 38-44 world but that’s covered elsewhere. My 38 Spl +P loads particularly with Power Pistol give me very good accuracy with adequate power.

I’m still experimenting with N340 and Accurate #5 and added BE-86 (Unique replacement) in 38 Spl +P and hope to send some loads over the chronograph this week…I will report back with the results.