Unloaded Franford Arsenal 30-06 Cases

[Bjthomas99]

Hello!

saw these on GunBroker, and figured, why not. Tried to find any information more than what the guy that was selling had listed but was unsuccessful. All I know is the date on the box and that according to the seller they are 30-06. Can't wait to get them and see what they see all about. Anyone know what powder charge might be in these?

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[samari46]

Could be wrong, but the only 30-06 cases I've ever seen with a wad were blanks. So having said that yours looks to be someone's handloads. Do not use the powder for anything. Blanks are loaded with a extremely fast burning powder that is to make a loud noise. As far as what looks like the cotton string never seen anything like that before. Check the headstamp anything after 1954 would be non corrosive for sure. I know some lots earlier would have been non corrosive but do not have the info at hand. Frank

[Bjthomas99]

Well, they aren't blanks, they are ready to load cases that just need the projectile. Supposedly during various wartimes the US made unmarked munitions for sketchy operations they didn't want any tie to, and I think that's what these are. They have no mark on the headstamp at all.

[Soundguy]

Well, they aren't blanks, they are ready to load cases that just need the projectile. Supposedly during various wartimes the US made unmarked munitions for sketchy operations they didn't want any tie to, and I think that's what these are. They have no mark on the headstamp at all.

If it has a fiber wad and a cotton fill and powder charge.. it sure ain't a ready to load case.

it was either a trainer, grenade or blank.. but many blanks were crimped.

it takes more work to load a cotton fill and a plug than to load a projectile.. so they were n't preloading them and capping them for use later on. That's a pretty small charge compared to waht.. say.. what a pile of 4064 might look like for a 30-06.

[Reg]

LC 52 is non corrosive

[Bjthomas99]

Here is a couple more pictures. Once I receive the box I will have more info. The seller said they came from Ft. Dedrick and he has a few hundred more rounds in boxes. Worst case, I bought some primed brass from 1961. I was hoping to not be met with such negativity about this, and maybe some info, but oh well.

I realize they could be loaded ammo that got the Bullets pulled and put in other boxes, but the unmarked brass is the weird part. I will take measurements once I receive the items.

Thanks

Brian

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[fatelk]

I don’t think it’s so much negativity as it is that we don’t think they are what you think they are. No offense intended.

[lucifers]

If they are FA cases they will have an FA headstamp and a 2 digit year date as in FA35.

No headstamp, unsealed box ----- who knows.

I have a bunch of 06' "basic" (straight) cases with no headstamp that came with a 7mm06 on an 03' that was owned by a Lake City worker. I imagine they were "borrowed" off the production line.

OP needs to go on a cartridge collectors website to get accurate info.

[Mytmousemalibu]

Might be rifle grenade rounds for the Vivien Bessières model of rifle grenade launcher or something along those lines. We used the French grenade launcher adapted to our rifles in WWI primarily but also saw limited service in WWII. The real deal used a live cartridge to trip the grenade fuse as it went through the center of it and the gas behind it propelled the grenade out of the cup. For practice with dummy grenades I t was a hazard to use live ammo so a special blank was developed using a wood bullet. Food for thought!

[lightman]

We can't really tell a lot from the pictures. The case does look like a 30-06 case. The pile of powder looks to be too small for a loaded 30-06 cartridge. The wad and packing makes one think blank, but they are unlike any of the other blanks that I have seen. I have a few odd cases in my collection that don't have head stamps, so this was not unheard of. Please post more pictures when these arrive. Whatever they are, they are interesting.

[Soundguy]

could also be parade 'report' or salute loads. I'm just no way believing loaded ready to go, pulled bullets, stuck in cotton and fiber plug, and a crazy small, probably very fast, powder charge. That's just wishfull thinking to me. Not being negative.. being practical.

[Bjthomas99]

I've been trying to find information about the so called "Clandestine" munitions developed for various entities. I've been trying to find information about that, but have not had any luck. Is there anyone on here that is the "resident expert" of USGI ammo?? I have this same search for info up on the IAA site as well.

[Soundguy]

I just did a google search for no headstamp ammunition and got half a dozen hits about 9mm, 308 & 30-06 with no headstamps, plenty of discussions of black ops, and about chineses spoofed LC m1 stamps, etc.

[Bjthomas99]

I did the same. There has to be someone out there that actually has some documentation. I thoroughly enjoy the forums for base information to start with but I use it as a starting point. Just like with reloading info, good for ideas but ALWAYS double check with manuals before blindly trusting anyone.

So I'm looking for that. Anything that resembles documentation.

[elmacgyver0]

Only one way to know for sure that you are right.
Crimp a 147 gr slug in a case and get back with a long string, preferably behind something and let her fly.
If you got to know it is the only way to know for sure.

If it were me, I would dump the powder down an ant hill and give the ants a little fireworks show.
Then I would use the cases to load something I know is safe.

[Soundguy]

That smile pile of powder looks suspiciously small to me

I bet it's on the fast side too.

No way you'd ever get me to re use that charge in anything except exactly what it came out of, some kind of report /trainer/grenade/blank round...

[lightman]

That smile pile of powder looks suspiciously small to me

I bet it's on the fast side too.

No way you'd ever get me to re use that charge in anything except exactly what it came out of, some kind of report /trainer/grenade/blank round...

I totally agree. I am hoping to see pictures when his ammo arrives.

[fatelk]

Looking a little closer at the photos, something appears amiss. I thought I was looking at a cardboard wad, but when you blow the photo up is appears to be a cork plug or something forced into the end of the shell.

It's also clearly not the original box, and probably nothing to do with Frankford Arsenal at all. If you blow up the second photo of the box you can see under the blacked out part next to the tape the letters "ATO". That box originally held 7.62 NATO rounds. The photo of the brass sure looks to be 30-06. When you get them check to see if they are berdan primed.

If I had to guess, I would say perhaps Yugoslavian? To me the brass base has a Yugoslavian look to it (speculation) and I have seen Yugoslavian brass without a headstamp. Just a guess.

[Bjthomas99]

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Empty brass weight

[Bjthomas99]

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[Bjthomas99]

So. Received boxes of brass today... Uploaded all the pictures I could think of that were pertinent.

-cases have a flared mouth and no crimp of any kind, so never loaded.
-primer is not crimped but sealed,
-boxer primed
-11 gr of powder, measured in multiple cases.
-cases are 200 gr each.
-cases are annealed

-one box reads----
"20 CARTRIDGES"
"7.62 NATO"
"BALL M80"
"LOT FA - X7.62 - 2775"
"FRANKFORD ARSENAL"

Anything else that would be of value, informationally?

Thanks guys

[fatelk]

Well, it seems clear that the boxes they came in have no relation to the cartridges. Boxer primed is interesting. The brass, primer and sealant have a USGI look to them, as least it seems that way to me (other than no headstamp).

The light charge of powder and flared mouth seems to say blank or light cast bullet charge. Maybe someone ran out of cast bullets and put the corks in the otherwise loaded brass, just ready for a boolit? I'm just speculating.

If it's something more than someone's oddball garage project, then it's outside of my realm of knowledge.

It is interesting either way. Thanks for posting it.

[Pressman]

Probably european plastic bullet blanks with the boolit pulled and the powder stored - for who knows what reason. Many, if not most of them had no headstamps.
Ken

[nicholst55]

I do know one thing - there ain't no way that I would seat a bullet on those powder charges, chamber, and fire them. I'm vote for the anthill fireworks show.

[Bjthomas99]

Yeah, after seeing that there is only 11 gr. of powder in there and it certainly isn't 4895 or something else, it's going to be a yard fireshow. The brass is very interesting and I want to take some time and measure and weigh a set and see how close they are...

[Soundguy]

yup, undoubtedly a very fast powder.

[oldblinddog]

11.0 grs of Bullseye? I'm not where I can reach a manual so not even sure if that's a credible charge.

[Soundguy]

11g of magic mystery powder, or as I like to call them , lawn fertilizer.

[Char-Gar]

What you have is a box of somebody's "schutzen" loads. The bullet is placed into the barrel throat with a breech seating tool and a loaded case is chambered behind the bullet. The wadding is to keep the powder next to the primer and the cork if to keep everything in place until the round is loaded into the barrel.

Most likely the powder is Unique, 2400 or some equivalent.

[Bjthomas99]

Fascinating. Just read up on reduced 30-06 loads and there is quite a bit of information. The Schutzen load idea is very interesting and makes a lot of sense. The only thing that's peculiar is the unmarked brass...

[RPRNY]

Mysterious and interesting!

[fatelk]

Yes, I wonder about the origin of that brass. From the photos it sure looks like virgin brass. I’ll bet the guys at cartridgecollectors.org could tell you all about it.

[Bjthomas99]

According to the seller, the cases are originally designed for biological warfare. He provided me some documentation. The seller was the one that wrote the article in the IAA.

Very interesting information.

And a nice addition to my collection.

But here are some new pictures. He included a "spam can" and a couple "bullets".

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[AllanD]

Guy! I recall from somewhere in my memory reading that Before the 7.62x51 NATO was adopted there was another NATO cartridge... The 7.62x63 NATO....

[Soundguy]

Guy! I recall from somewhere in my memory reading that Before the 7.62x51 NATO was adopted there was another NATO cartridge... The 7.62x63 NATO....

7.62x63 = .30-06