.454 bear defense loads

[hunter12]

I moved back to AK and now looking for a good bear load for my .454 casull, ruger SRH (7.5"). I have some 260gr semi jacketed flat points and they are shooting fine but the more I read about grizzly attacks the more I want a heavier boolit.

I've seen many in the 300-325gr range which was going to be my starting point but then I noticed some 370gr W/GC at the LGS. Now thats a big hunk of lead, WOW!! I didn't notice if they are FP or RN but will go back to check since I want a flat point.

Has anyone loaded that heavy for the 454?
How was the recoil and accuracy?
Where did you find load info?
Are there heavier boolits available or even recommended for the .454?

FWIW I will be getting another .454 in either the 2.5" or 5" barrel from ruger, the load recipes should remain pretty much unchanged, right??

[Adam20]

Hodgdon reloading has data listed for bullets up to 395 grains, as far as recoil and accuracy you will need to practice and find what works best for you. Everyone threshold for recoil is different.

[clum553946]

Since you’re going to get another pistol, have you considered a 460 S&W? They make a 5” compensated model and you can shoot 454’s in it as well. I think when it comes to grizzlies, you can’t have too much power!

[hunter12]

Hodgdon reloading has data listed for bullets up to 395 grains, as far as recoil and accuracy you will need to practice and find what works best for you. Everyone threshold for recoil is different.

I'll check out hodgon, thanks

Recoil can be different for everyone but different powders may also produce less recoil than other powders - I'm interested in real life experiences


Since you’re going to get another pistol, have you considered a 460 S&W? They make a 5” compensated model and you can shoot 454’s in it as well. I think when it comes to grizzlies, you can’t have too much power!

I have considered the .460 but ruger doesn't make one for the SRH. Plus the .454 kicks like a mule and at the moment I'm not interested in going to a bigger mule :shock:;)

[dubber123]

Whatever you end up loading, keep an eye on bullet/boolit pull. Heavier projectiles and harder kicking loads exacerbate this issue. Its something to watch out for, and doubly so in a defense gun, as it can tie up a revolver in just a few shots. That happened to a guy in Alaska a few years back, luckily shot # 4 from his 2.5" SRH did the trick on the attacking bear, as the gun was tied up for #5.

[44MAG#1]

I have loaded up to 415 gr in a 454 Casull.

[hunter12]

I have loaded up to 415 gr in a 454 Casull.

How did you like them?

[44MAG#1]

The most I pushed them was to 1350 fps. I have 2 molds from LBT a LFN-GC and a WLN-GC. the WLN didnt really fully stabilize at that velocity but did give good accuracy out to 50 yards.
Recoil in my FA was exhilirating. The gun recoiled so far that the hammer woulf cut my hand unless a death grip was used.
The 415 WLN-GC from a 4 inch Ruger Redhawk 45 Colt at 1120 will stabilize very well and even at that velocity equals the momentum of a 360 gr at 1290 fps or a 320 at 1450.
Plus recoil isnt horrendous and it is a good packing revolver. The Redhawk need a lot higher front and Bowen Custom guns has them or they did.
My bullets are designed to come to pretty close to full cylinder length and no I didnt have problems with bullet pull under recoil in either gun.

[454PB]

I recommend and use the Lee C452-300-RF and/or Lyman 452651. The Lee actually weighs 320 gr. in my alloy, and the Lyman weighs 330 gr., sized, gas checked, and lubed. Both of these have been pushed to over 1400 fps. in my three .454 Casull revolvers, and 1900 fps. in my Puma rifle. Though I've not shot any bears with these, I have no doubt they will fully penetrate. I'm used to heavy recoil, and these two produce about all I want.

[Groo]

Groo here
As you have a ruger [ faster twist than an FA], you can use heave boolets at reduced speeds.[FA has slow twist needed faster loads fpr 300+gr boolets]
Go to Penn bullets for the original SSK 340gr bullet designed for the FA 454.[ they will send loading data,, ask]
Said boolet has taken the Big Five.........

[stubshaft]

I regularly shoot a 325 WFN with 33.0 gr. 296 out of my FA. Last count was over 5K of them and they shoot into 1" - 1.5" @ 50yds.

[DougGuy]

I regularly shoot a 325 WFN with 33.0 gr. 296 out of my FA. Last count was over 5K of them and they shoot into 1" - 1.5" @ 50yds.

You might want to recheck your load data. As typed out in post #11, this would be a VERY DANGEROUS load!

Hodgdon data lists 26.0gr W296 as a MAX charge behind a 325gr HP boolit seated to 1.750" COA showing OVER 52,000 CUP pressure.

They also list 26.0gr W295 as a MAX charge behind a 325gr LFN seated to 1.760" COA showing 34,300 CUP pressure.

[44MAG#1]

I'm glad I'm not the only one.

[454PB]

Will 33 gr. of 296 even allow boolit seating?

[stubshaft]

Will 33 gr. of 296 even allow boolit seating?

Yes, barely...The load was on a Xerox copy of load date from Dick Casull when I bought the gun in the early eighties. It doesn't even flatten the primer.

BTW - The industry standard for the .454 Casull was 65,000. With the advent of other revolvers it was lowered.

[Greg S]

My eyes hurt just looking at that data, LOL.

[P Flados]

Yes, barely...The load was on a Xerox copy of load date from Dick Casull when I bought the gun in the early eighties. It doesn't even flatten the primer.

BTW - The industry standard for the .454 Casull was 65,000. With the advent of other revolvers it was lowered.

Well there is certainly no worry about the old "WW 296 detonation due to inadequate load density" with that one.

The 454 and the 357 both suffer greatly from reduced pressure standards caused by gun makers and their poor choices.

[hunter12]

Groo here
As you have a ruger [ faster twist than an FA], you can use heave boolets at reduced speeds.[FA has slow twist needed faster loads fpr 300+gr boolets]
Go to Penn bullets for the original SSK 340gr bullet designed for the FA 454.[ they will send loading data,, ask]
Said boolet has taken the Big Five.........

I didnt consider rate of twist :roll:... What is a good weight for the SHR and will barrel length make that big of a difference?

[44MAG#1]

1-24 twist is good for 340 to 350.

[rosewood]

I recommend and use the Lee C452-300-RF and/or Lyman 452651. The Lee actually weighs 320 gr. in my alloy, and the Lyman weighs 330 gr., sized, gas checked, and lubed. Both of these have been pushed to over 1400 fps. in my three .454 Casull revolvers, and 1900 fps. in my Puma rifle. Though I've not shot any bears with these, I have no doubt they will fully penetrate. I'm used to heavy recoil, and these two produce about all I want.
U mind sharing the load u are using in your puma? I really haven't played with loads in mine since I started casting. I think my alloy drops at 316 with the gc wit the lee. Assuming u are using h110? Also, which crimp groove are u using? Thanks, Rosewood.

[454PB]

For either of those boolits, I have to seat deep and use the front crimp groove for reliable feeding. Yes, H-110/296 or Lil'Gun for maximum velocities. I don't have specific load data in front of me at the moment, but Hodgdon has load data available on line.

[Bigslug]

You're going to have plenty of penetration with non-expanding alloys in the 250-300 grain range. Penetration testing with cast has shown me that it's helpful to discard your notions of weight requirements that were based on cup & core hollow & soft points in which the cores are generally made of really squishy stuff. A typical 9mm/.40/.45 duty load stops in three milk jugs; some of the hunting soft points will go 4 or 5; I've done nine with a flat nosed .45 Auto 230 grainer cast of 23 BHN alloy being driven at GI hardball speed.

I'd be looking in the 250-275 grain range with a gas check, a big ugly meplat, using that slightly lighter weight to generate velocity to give a wider "bow wave" off that meplat. Unless you're braining or spining them, you're going to be counting on bleed-out to save your bacon, and the faster that happens, the better off you'll be.

The 2.5" version of that gun has always seemed silly to me: big cartridge with big powder capacity and no barrel to burn it up in. Somewhat defeats the purpose, IMO.

[hunter12]

You're going to have plenty of penetration with non-expanding alloys in the 250-300 grain range. Penetration testing with cast has shown me that it's helpful to discard your notions of weight requirements that were based on cup & core hollow & soft points in which the cores are generally made of really squishy stuff. A typical 9mm/.40/.45 duty load stops in three milk jugs; some of the hunting soft points will go 4 or 5; I've done nine with a flat nosed .45 Auto 230 grainer cast of 23 BHN alloy being driven at GI hardball speed.

I'd be looking in the 250-275 grain range with a gas check, a big ugly meplat, using that slightly lighter weight to generate velocity to give a wider "bow wave" off that meplat. Unless you're braining or spining them, you're going to be counting on bleed-out to save your bacon, and the faster that happens, the better off you'll be.

The 2.5" version of that gun has always seemed silly to me: big cartridge with big powder capacity and no barrel to burn it up in. Somewhat defeats the purpose, IMO.

Meplat?

The plan is to brain a charging bear but considering the adrenaline that will be produced in that split second, a solid brain shot may be off to one side or the other. I hope and pray I never have to find out but if it does happen I want to be ready

I've heard the same thing about the 2.5" barrels along with reduced felt recoil due to more powder not burning in the barrel. But you also loose front end weight weight of having a longer barrel. That being said, a shorter barrel is much easier and faster to draw and maneuver especially if your face to face with a grizzly.

[Bigslug]

Meplat = flat nose. Something in the .32" to .34" diameter works well for a .45 caliber bullet. Creates more of a crush and tear effect on surrounding tissue that a round nose.

Rather than severely hamper a .454 Casull's ballistics with a short barrel, which will also create a massive cloud of flame and unpleasant concussion, contemplate one of the standard frame 4 to 5 inch Redhawks or S&W Mountain Guns in .44 Mag or .45 Colt loaded to a tolerable level of recoil with the same kind of bullet I mentioned earlier. Ballistic performance will likely be on par or better, and it's far less of a compromise handgun overall. The shot to take in the circumstances envisioned here is through the nose into the brain - for which any of the above is more than ample horsepower, and a greater level of control to try a second time if needed might be a bigger asset than an obnoxiously blasty flamethrower. At the point one begins to worry about the holster-clear rate of a 2" vs a 4" barrel on a CQB draw against an 800-plus pound carnivore, you might as well consider filing off the front sight - not so much to prevent snagging on the draw, but mainly so it hurts less when the irate bear decides to re-holster it where the sun don't shine.:shock:

[vzerone]

My choice would be a 10mm Glock. Lots of fire power there.

[hunter12]

Meplat = flat nose. Something in the .32" to .34" diameter works well for a .45 caliber bullet. Creates more of a crush and tear effect on surrounding tissue that a round nose.

Rather than severely hamper a .454 Casull's ballistics with a short barrel, which will also create a massive cloud of flame and unpleasant concussion, contemplate one of the standard frame 4 to 5 inch Redhawks or S&W Mountain Guns in .44 Mag or .45 Colt loaded to a tolerable level of recoil with the same kind of bullet I mentioned earlier. Ballistic performance will likely be on par or better, and it's far less of a compromise handgun overall. The shot to take in the circumstances envisioned here is through the nose into the brain - for which any of the above is more than ample horsepower, and a greater level of control to try a second time if needed might be a bigger asset than an obnoxiously blasty flamethrower. At the point one begins to worry about the holster-clear rate of a 2" vs a 4" barrel on a CQB draw against an 800-plus pound carnivore, you might as well consider filing off the front sight - not so much to prevent snagging on the draw, but mainly so it hurts less when the irate bear decides to re-holster it where the sun don't shine.:shock:

The 5" ruger is on my list and I can load them down to 45 colt or someplace in between the colt and casull, whatever I'm comfortable with and will still get the job done.

With time and calm nerves I could easily put all rounds into a 2" (bear nose) or better group @ 30'. But when the nerves get going I have no idea where the lead will fly I want something that will hurt him regardless of where the bullet hits, thats why I'm asking about the heavier bullets. And yes I practice all the time but you never really know how you will react when the S really hits the fan...

From what I understand the 10mm is a good round and fully capable of doing the job but I prefer the 45 cal bullets over all others. Even the two legged predators think twice when they see that hunk of steel, although they are very few in this part of the US.

[wildcatter]

My choice would be a 10mm Glock. Lots of fire power there.

you'll need lots of em,, good luck!

I'll stick with my 25.5 grains of H110 and a cci mag small rifle primer with my 340 grain hard cast WLFN, I think 5 should be more than enough,,, like you state, even if not perfectly placed.
208851

[lucifers]

While it's nice to talk about ammo choices, the gun is critical.

The gun that is too heavy or large will be left behind.

There is only one light gun with big performance ---- the 329 S&W. 26 ounces empty and stoked w/300 gr hardcasts and H110 is a serious hand cannon. Add some laser grips and good to go.

Yup kicks like a mule but if Mr Griz is trying to get on the horse with you, the recoil is the least of your problems.

The 10 mil can lay down fire faster but just can't push a 300 gr boolit at 1000 fps.

[Bigslug]

With time and calm nerves I could easily put all rounds into a 2" (bear nose) or better group @ 30'. But when the nerves get going I have no idea where the lead will fly I want something that will hurt him regardless of where the bullet hits, thats why I'm asking about the heavier bullets.

My point was that the extra bullet weight past a certain point isn't going to gain you anything (assuming you're casting hard-alloy solids, they penetrate A LOT) and that the extra velocity you get by going with a little bit lighter pill can equate to more violent displacement of tissue off the large, flat nose. Deep wound channel you don't have to worry about; we're talking about methods to make it wider.

As I said in my first post, a change in thinking is in order when it comes to bullet material and the mass of it required. In comparison to a 22-24 BHN quenched wheel weight bullet, a soft nose or hollowpoint cup & core pistol bullet is like stabbing with a knife made out of used bubble gum. That's largely what contributed to the conventional wisdoms we have today - such as 180 grain .30 calibers being popular for elk. When they don't open, shed weight, etc..., it's a completely different ball of wax.

Now, if you're planning to use a jacketed expander, then yeah, heavy is good.

As for "something that will hurt him regardless of where the bullet hits", I've seen little bitty deer that DIDN'T start out amped on adrenaline or testosterone take ten seconds to fall after having their hearts removed with large and/or fast rifle bullets. Even if you've got good shot placement, you can end up in your own reenactment of The Revenant. If you don't. . .prepare your Oscar acceptance speech. Hundredths of an inch in bullet diameter, an extra thirty grains of lead, or a couple hundred feet per second won't matter if it isn't delivered well.

[rosewood]

Been watching Razor Dobbs hunting and he killed a cape buffalo with a 10mm using a 200 grain hard cast. Also killed zebra, wildebeest, and of course white tail. Haven't seen him go after a grizzly though.

[Bill*B]

I'm told that a bear can cover 50 feet per second, when they explode out of cover. If there is 25 yards between you, that gives you 1 1/2 seconds before the beast is upon you. Now, take this question with a grain - or maybe a full block - of salt. I don't live in bear country! But - would not fast draw practice trump caliber, if you carry something reasonable, like a .45 Colt?

[vzerone]

you'll need lots of em,, good luck!

I'll stick with my 25.5 grains of H110 and a cci mag small rifle primer with my 340 grain hard cast WLFN, I think 5 should be more than enough,,, like you state, even if not perfectly placed.
208851

You do know that Razor Dobbs killed two African Cape Buffalo's with a five inch Dan Wesson 1911 along with a who lot of other African big game right. He was using Sledgehammer hard cast and on the bone buff the bullet went through him from broadside heart shot. On the other he couldn't fine the bullet. Then remember the famous guide, name eludes me right at the moment, guiding some people on a fishing trip that had an encounter with one of the big bears and all he had was a 9mm pistol. Few shots in the neck and down it went dead. Now that I would have definitely been afraid to do. One would have many shots, 15 to be exact. I heard the 10mm was a big seller in Alaska. Me? Big magnum rifle LOL

[Edward]

I'm told that a bear can cover 50 feet per second, when they explode out of cover. If there is 25 yards between you, that gives you 1 1/2 seconds before the beast is upon you. Now, take this question with a grain - or maybe a full block - of salt. I don't live in bear country! But - would not fast draw practice trump caliber, if you carry something reasonable, like a .45 Colt? Yup if you shoot a Glock 20 with a big mag full of boolits :Fire::Fire:

[dubber123]

Even in a 2.5" barrel, the 454 performs. Another member on here was getting well over 1,300 fps from 300+ grain boolits, and said it wasn't hard to do. That's about all you can expect from most 45 Colts with much longer barrels. I don't have to worry much about a big bear attacking here, but if I did, it would indeed be a wide meplat heavy boolit moving along over 1,300 fps. if possible. I've shot a few boars with identical meplat hard cast, and something definitely happens at 1,300 fps. vs. 1,000. I'll take the faster load every time, but in something where you may need a LOT of penetration, weight matters. Linebaughs penetration tests are a good read if you think weight doesn't matter.

[robertbank]

I'm told that a bear can cover 50 feet per second, when they explode out of cover. If there is 25 yards between you, that gives you 1 1/2 seconds before the beast is upon you. Now, take this question with a grain - or maybe a full block - of salt. I don't live in bear country! But - would not fast draw practice trump caliber, if you carry something reasonable, like a .45 Colt?

This! Especially up here. For relevance my average draw from cover garment shooting IDPA is 1.5 seconds and I know the buzzer is going to go off. Now I am not fast for sure compared to Master class shooters but if you are not, 1.5 seconds might be a good objective for anyone who is not shooting competitions regularly. Make lots of noise when hiking in bear country and carry bear spray as a primary with a handgun as backup. There are lots of short barreled hand cannons to choose from including shotguns.

Take Care

Bob
ps there is a difference between hunting bears and protecting yourself from bears.

[wildcatter]

You do know that Razor Dobbs killed two African Cape Buffalo's with a five inch Dan Wesson 1911 along with a who lot of other African big game right. He was using Sledgehammer hard cast and on the bone buff the bullet went through him from broadside heart shot. On the other he couldn't fine the bullet. Then remember the famous guide, name eludes me right at the moment, guiding some people on a fishing trip that had an encounter with one of the big bears and all he had was a 9mm pistol. Few shots in the neck and down it went dead. Now that I would have definitely been afraid to do. One would have many shots, 15 to be exact. I heard the 10mm was a big seller in Alaska. Me? Big magnum rifle LOL

No I don't watch or base much of what I have acquired as proof watching videos or hearing he said she said. I know any 45 cal 340 grain slug or bigger, moving over 1200 fps will do way more than any clip full of 200 grain anythings.

I also know going fer heart shots and neck shots are a no no when being attacked by any dangerous game that is going to be on you in less than 2 or 3 seconds! You better be sure wherever they hit in that time frame they don't have to be exactly placed to stop or at least slow em down. I also know how much better shot on a range in the hunting field and when shooting the chit folks are, I also know how much that changes when a real bear is at a split second pizzed and attacking!

But yes know several who travel to NW and to Alaska, and I will assure you they are all relying on over 300 grain loads, and none tempting fate on the reliability of even the finest custom Semi Auto, all carry revolvers and all 45 cal. and over. From 63 years experience loading about every caliber made, that is exactly what I would carry as well. Now in the living room watching videos,, I see yer point, that's a different story,,,,

This is also like the high cap comments for self defenses, over a single big caliber. If you aint got control after 2 or 3 shots,, your probably no longer at risk of being shot,,,,,,, AGAIN! I'll take small capacity, with good power for the situation, and realize, dangerous game, or a dangerous individual, your life depends on a split second action, I want to make it count.

Life is much different when I'm hunting! Bill Troubridge killed a Bull Elephant with an Excalibur Recurve, but I'll bet if he was just out fer a stroll and that sucker attacked he would be opting for a different weapon,,,, apples to apples!

[robertbank]

wildcatter Grizzly Bear guides up here have been known to carry 1911's with 45-08 cartridges loaded with 200 gr LSWC going 1100 fps. Enough to break a hip or go deep enough to turn the electrics off. A Grizzlies bear's heart beats about 4 times a minute when he is running so bleeding out is not an option. Best defense is a good offence ie noise with bear spray & shotgun/short barreled handgun as a 2nd option. Attacks are pretty rare up here given the number of bears we have roaming around. I saw the Conservation boys out with their shotguns down the street about three weeks ago. I assume a Black Bear had wandered into town before setting down for his winter nap. Back in October they shot a Grizzly on the east side of town. Humans 2, Bears 0

Take Care

Bob

[wildcatter]

wildcatter Grizzly Bear guides up here have been known to carry 1911's with 45-08 cartridges loaded with 200 gr LSWC going 1100 fps. Enough to break a hip or go deep enough to turn the electrics off. A Grizzlies bear's heart beats about 4 times a minute when he is running so bleeding out is not an option. Best defense is a good offence ie noise with bear spray & shotgun/short barreled handgun as a 2nd option. Attacks are pretty rare up here given the number of bears we have roaming around. I saw the Conservation boys out with their shotguns down the street about three weeks ago. I assume a Black Bear had wandered into town before setting down for his winter nap. Back in October they shot a Grizzly on the east side of town. Humans 2, Bears 0

Take Care

Bob

Exactly, they weren't walking through the village with their glocks in hand, awaiting a confrontation, my point exactly. They weren't loaded with buckshot either, they were toten a lot bigger than 300 grain solid lead large caliber bear stoppers, not 200 grain high velocity newfangled slugs in smaller than gauge sabotts. My guess is they know better,,,,, ;)

[charlie b]

From what I read of the guide's encounter he was firing from the side of the bear, which was threatening (not attacking) the clients. And, yes, he placed 10 to 15 9mm slugs in the bear's neck and it went down (I don't know if the bear was standing on hind legs or not). He was very lucky as well as being a good shot. Lucky cause the bear was not charging so he had a little extra time to make those shots. Also lucky that he had a shot angle where his 9mm was adequate for penetration to a critical area.

I have 'simulated' a charging animal on a range. Despite being a pretty good shot and not bad at drawing a pistol I failed miserably. I suspect most of the people in this forum would be in the same boat.

This is a critical 'game'. You need to know exactly where to place the bullet in various encounter situations. And, you need to deliver it accurately and quickly AT A FAST MOVING TARGET (and 'bouncing'?). The idea that you can be off target and stop a charge is not a reliable way to think about this. This is not a 'aim center of mass and shoot' kind of thing and you don't get points if you are outside the X ring.

[44MAG#1]

If you are talking about the guide using Buffalo Bore +P 147 gr hardcast 9MM ammo he fired 7 rounds. Not 10 to 15. I believe his name is Phil Shoemaker.

[44MAG#1]

And on it goes. Never will be an end to the bear protection thing. When this thread dies off there will be another. And another. And another. Nothing will ever be solved to anyone's satisfaction.

[robertbank]

Exactly, they weren't walking through the village with their glocks in hand, awaiting a confrontation, my point exactly. They weren't loaded with buckshot either, they were toten a lot bigger than 300 grain solid lead large caliber bear stoppers, not 200 grain high velocity newfangled slugs in smaller than gauge sabotts. My guess is they know better,,,,, ;)

Not really. The difference is they are in hunting mode. They use slugs. They aren't carrying anything else other than their 40 cal Glocks because that is what they are issued and allowed to carry.

Bears in the main are going to leave you alone unless you surprise them. Any time there are two of us going to our fishing spot we do so making lots of noise.

Take Care

Bob

[charlie b]

If you are talking about the guide using Buffalo Bore +P 147 gr hardcast 9MM ammo he fired 7 rounds. Not 10 to 15. I believe his name is Phil Shoemaker.

Thanks for the clarification. It was still a very lucky day for him and his clients.

[44MAG#1]

Thanks for the clarification. It was still a very lucky day for him and his clients.

Yes it was but his escapade proves a few things.
1. Even an experienced person can do foolish things.
2. Evidentally a 9MM with a hard cast penetrates well.
3. Rapid fire with an inadequate caliber and bullet that hits is better than a large caliber with a heavy bullet and heavy recoil that is adequate that misses.
4. Someone who wants to carry a caliber they can't hit well with when firing without pressure will surely not do well when under pressure.
5. A cool head action is better than a knee jerk reaction.

Oh well.

[wildcatter]

Yes it was but his escapade proves a few things.
1. Even an experienced person can do foolish things.
2. Evidentally a 9MM with a hard cast penetrates well.
3. Rapid fire with an inadequate caliber and bullet that hits is better than a large caliber with a heavy bullet and heavy recoil that is adequate that misses.
4. Someone who wants to carry a caliber they can't hit well with when firing without pressure will surely not do well when under pressure.
5. A cool head action is better than a knee jerk reaction.

Oh well.

I agree on some of these points,
1)yes at some time or another we all have, this seems to be less of a habit as we age
2)Yes,,,, This time as luck would have it, I wouldn't rely on it all the time!
3)any miss is never good, I would think inadequate in the equation would make any answer or weapon possible, Hell a knife you can stick with is better than a miss, but I don't want to take a knife over a big bore and boolit even if I couldn't shoot it well?
4)No doubt, and if that is the case, that means a 22 LR is a better choice than a 38 special if you can't hit anything with the 38!
5) This is a fact,

[44MAG#1]

I agree on some of these points,
1)yes at some time or another we all have, this seems to be less of a habit as we age
2)Yes,,,, This time as luck would have it, I wouldn't rely on it all the time!
3)any miss is never good, I would think inadequate in the equation would make any answer or weapon possible, Hell a knife you can stick with is better than a miss, but I don't want to take a knife over a big bore and boolit even if I couldn't shoot it well?
4)No doubt, and if that is the case, that means a 22 LR is a better choice than a 38 special if you can't hit anything with the 38!
5) This is a fact,

On your answer to #3 if you or anyone else can shoot the big Bore well than you wouldn't need a knife. Care to explain?

[rosewood]

One always needs a knife...

[vzerone]

wildcatter Grizzly Bear guides up here have been known to carry 1911's with 45-08 cartridges loaded with 200 gr LSWC going 1100 fps. Enough to break a hip or go deep enough to turn the electrics off. A Grizzlies bear's heart beats about 4 times a minute when he is running so bleeding out is not an option. Best defense is a good offence ie noise with bear spray & shotgun/short barreled handgun as a 2nd option. Attacks are pretty rare up here given the number of bears we have roaming around. I saw the Conservation boys out with their shotguns down the street about three weeks ago. I assume a Black Bear had wandered into town before setting down for his winter nap. Back in October they shot a Grizzly on the east side of town. Humans 2, Bears 0

Take Care

Bob

Bob, I'd like to know where you got a grizzly bear's heart beasts 4 times a minute when running?

Lynne Nelson, a cardiologist in Washington State University’s College of Veterinary Medicine, and Charles Robbins, director of the university’s Bear Research, Education and Conservation Program, are collaborating on a research project that studies how the bears’ hearts work during hibernation.
The research shows that the bears’ heart rates decrease from around 80-90 beats per minute in the summer to about 18 beats per minute in the winter (ranging between 8-24 beats per minute). In people, heart rates this slow would cause congestion and heart failure to occur, usually within a matter of weeks. The bears show no signs of congestion even after four or five months of slow heart rates.
Even though heart muscle contraction appears normal, the heart muscle’s ability to relax and accept blood volume appears enhanced. This adaptation may help the bears’ heart chambers cope with the increased stress on the muscle that likely develops during the long pauses between heart contractions during hibernation. The enhanced relaxation of the muscle could help avoid congestion and congestive heart failure.

Maybe you had better research that.

[robertbank]

The bears heart beat us darn slow is the point. The only thing that will stop a Grizzly in it's tracks is either a brain shot or taking out the spine. Beyond that you will be long dead waiting for the bear to bleed out. I appreciate folks in some parts of the lower 48 just don't understand if you are up here in Grizzly country NW BC/Alaska any bear attack is going to come from short distance and will be a surprise. You just don't have time to unholster a large heavy pistol. S&W makes a 2" 44 Mag I believe which would be handy if your shotgun was somewhere else.

I suspect there are more threads on bear attacks on this forum than there are bear attacks across Canada in any given year. They do happen but they are rare and often fatal. Bear spray and a Ghetto Blaster might be a better ticket.

Take Care

Bob
ps Time yourself running 10 yards aka 30'. Assume a bear can run twice as fast as you can. Time your draws with your regular carry gun. Then ask yourself how fast you can draw a revolver that weighs twice as much as your carry gun and likely will have at least a thumb strap. I got $20 on the bear.

[rhouser]

Some days, the bear wins!

In a no notice, full on, short range bear attack, I am probably going to be mauled and may die. Fight or Footrace, I am in deep trouble in this scenario. There used to be a poster with a mouse flipping off an owl in the last second before being grabbed. It was titled "Last Great Act of Defiance".

I may "freeze up" and take the hit (I hope not), or I may have time to make my "last great act of defiance" (I hope so).

People have punched bears, stabbed bears, shot bears, screamed at bears, played dead, ran, climbed trees etc. Is my hunting knife going to be my last act of defiance? How about my 7" barreled SRH .454 Casull with tritium sights? Will I have my 12 gauge or 45-70 like when I am woods walking or my .375 H&H if I am hunting? I don't get to pick the time and place of my ambush.

Some days that bear is just going to win.

v/r rch

[pmer]

I think the big hand cannons with the "T-Rex" loads are great but I wonder if they are better suited primarily for hunting.

But for defensive shooting the question to be answered should be how big of a hand gun can one get 4 good shots on a close target in 5 seconds or so. Whether it's a 10mm, 45-08, 44 snubbie, 475 single action, etc. The bigger the boom the longer it takes to get that front sight back down on target. Shouldn't a bear defense handgun be quick to deploy and fast to shoot with as much power one can handle?

[wildcatter]

On your answer to #3 if you or anyone else can shoot the big Bore well than you wouldn't need a knife. Care to explain?

Simply if someone can't hit the target the size of a bear, it really doesn't matter, they may as well show up to the fight with a knife, the outcome will be the same. But am not disagreeing with you, any caliber you can hit with is better than any caliber you can't, in reality in these cases maybe the defender would be best suited with bear spray?

But I was not meaning they were not better off using whatever the could defend themselves with.

[nicholst55]

One always needs a knife...

Because there might be cheesecake. Or someone to stab.

[Metroxfi]

I always enjoy reading threads like this to learn not only what other people in other areas use and load but also what they feel comfortable carrying. Up in ND there's not a whole lot to worry about, I think the worst things you could run into on a hunt would be a mountain lion (which have been showing up more and more in the last few years) or a meth head (Which have been showing up more and more in the last few years...).

Anyway, I wanted to share an experience I had four years ago. In late spring I took my wife on an adventure to the badlands in SW ND (google Painted Canyon) to shoot some prairie dogs. We each had a 223 bolt rifle and a revolver, she had her GP-100 with medium loaded 158gr RNFP's and I had my S&W Governor with. I had my Governor with to utilize 410's for the rare but occasional Rattlesnake and mostly for the dumb little baby prairie dogs that sit and look at you from 10yds, but I had it loaded with 45 Colts and the Lee 452-300gc's and a stiff load of Unique under them for the hike out. The dogtown we visit is a solid mile hike from the nearest road, all on public land. The land is available to local ranchers for grazing their cattle and it's not uncommon to come across herds on the way. Well, shortly after we left the vehicle we saw a small heard that was easily spooked off and left us alone... for a while. The herd went south of us a ways and seemed to walk with us for a few hundred yards, I noticed they kept getting closer and suddenly they were walking right at us. We went north away from them and followed a fence line, a small pack of cattle broke off and looped around to come at us from the west. I started hollerin' and waving my arms to try to spook them off but they came right towards us at a brisk pace. I had the thought of shooting a round into the ground to scare them but I figured if I was going to have to fire a shot it would be at one of them.

Now don't get me wrong, I did NOT want to be 'that guy' who shot a rancher's cow because of something stupid but I also did not want to be trampled. I should also mention there were no calves in the herd, so there shouldn't have been any of that 'angry Mama' syndrome. Anyway, the small pack seemed to pick up the pace and were now within 50yds of us and moving fast. I told my wife to take her pack off and throw it over the fence and climb over. I finally drew my revolver when they were about 25yds away and I cocked the hammer as I pushed my wife over the fence. The pack sprinted and I thought "sh*t, I only have six shots, make 'em count." The pack got close, I mean spitting distance and stopped. I threw my hands up and yelled loudly again and they just looked at me. I was able to scramble myself over the fence to 'safety' where they continued to stare us down and follow us for a good distance before returning to the rest of the herd.

Not quite the same as a sudden rush from a bear but they can be just as dangerous. I had the six 45 Colt in the gun, plus a couple full moonclips of 45 auto with Lee 200gr RNFP's, I was confident that a square forehead shot would drop one in it's tracks but I was not confident in my ability to do it six time, reload, and do it a few more times with weaker ammo. Same would go for my 454 SRH, the first shot would have the best chance but after that I think most people's abilities would significantly decline. A 223 with 55gr HP's would wipe the fur from their forehead and my wife's 357 from the side wouldn't help much either. Seems like the answer would be a 'best of all worlds' with a square, heavy bullet doing a moderate velocity in a gun capable of holding more than six rounds all while being capable of being easily rapid-fired, which isn't going to happen. Maybe instead of working loads and using the best-for-scenario components and equipment we should just carry what we're comfortable with and can use confidently and put more effort into avoiding certain situations. There's always room for discussion and improvement, just don't let it get to your head and think that what you have is inadequate. There's always someone who's done more with less.

By the way, I searched through my phone and found a picture of the bull that was in the herd. We chased him off as we parked the car, my wife snapped a picture of him before he scampered off to join the rest. He didn't give us any trouble.
216757

[Eagle59]

My recipe is a 50 caliber handgun pushing a 400 grain plus FN cast bullet at 1100 ft/sec. You have to play with the weights and load to ensure accuracy but that is plenty of killing power for large game. The 500 Linebaugh kills wonderfully. I just ordered a BFR in 500 JRH and I can load it to get what I want. When you are using a handgun to defend against a bear attack the last thing you want is a gun that you can't handle for quick follow up shots because one shot most likely isn't going to drop an Alaskan brown bear unless you are able to hit the spine or brain. You really need a round capable of 5-6' of penetration. It doesn't take high velocity to get that.

[murf205]

I think the big hand cannons with the "T-Rex" loads are great but I wonder if they are better suited primarily for hunting.

But for defensive shooting the question to be answered should be how big of a hand gun can one get 4 good shots on a close target in 5 seconds or so. Whether it's a 10mm, 45-08, 44 snubbie, 475 single action, etc. The bigger the boom the longer it takes to get that front sight back down on target. Shouldn't a bear defense handgun be quick to deploy and fast to shoot with as much power one can handle?

Not to mention that your hands will probably be wet from rain, especially if you are fishing close to the coast. That's why I use Hogue finger groove grips on my 4" 629. I've only had one encounter and that was on the banks of the Anchor River on the Kenai Peninsula. He was on the other side(not far at all) and walked out on the bank while I was tying on a fishing rig and not making any noise at all. Since he seemed to be in a charitable mood, I simply backed away and found another spot to fish. 99% of the time this is how it plays out. With that said, not long after I came home, a guy had to shoot an old rangy brownie in the city limits of Soldotna. He used a SRH in 454 IIRC. But.......common sense rules when it comes to big bears, rifles are a close 2nd.

[robertbank]

I think the big hand cannons with the "T-Rex" loads are great but I wonder if they are better suited primarily for hunting.

But for defensive shooting the question to be answered should be how big of a hand gun can one get 4 good shots on a close target in 5 seconds or so. Whether it's a 10mm, 45-08, 44 snubbie, 475 single action, etc. The bigger the boom the longer it takes to get that front sight back down on target. Shouldn't a bear defense handgun be quick to deploy and fast to shoot with as much power one can handle?

This! and yes.

Take Care

Bob

[dhom]

You guys can take this for what it is worth. I had a cousin that guided for Griz in Alaska and he carried a .41 mag loaded with 250 hard cast [22-24 BHN] at approx. 1200 fps. He had stopped 19 attacks but not number 20. Later found out the bear was hit with 5 out of 6 bullets and died.

[calm seas]

H110/W296 are extremely accurate powders in the pistols, because they need about 18" of barrel to fully burn. My understanding is both powders yield very low Sds in pistols because of the unburned powder. I use a Cast Performance 360 gr WFNGC with H110, in both my SRH 7.5 inch, and my Ruger Alaskan 2.5", waiting on some 320 gr from Penn Bullets. My recommendation for my wife is an AR-15 with a 30-round mag of FMJs. Her hands are not big enough to hold onto the Rugers. While a single 55gr FMJ may not break a grizz' shoulder or spine or skull, you get a full clip into it, and it will regret opening THAT!! hornets nest.

[bigboredad]

I'm curious about the velocity everyone's talking about. In a defensive bear attack I don't see how 1300 for is going to out penetrate the same bullet moving at 1000fps. at 5 feet I think the extra fps is just extra recoil. From my own experience not against bears but hard would a 340gr .45 at 950fps penetrated the same as the same bullet going 1300+. If it was me I'd get the 4 inch redhawk 415gr bullets keep the velocity down to 1000-1050 take a shoulder out to create distance then finish it off but I've never been in that situation and never will. Just a guy that loves .45+ calibers and big fat heavy bullets. Good luck hope you never need to find out

Sent from my SM-T377V using Tapatalk

[alamogunr]

You guys can take this for what it is worth. I had a cousin that guided for Griz in Alaska and he carried a .41 mag loaded with 250 hard cast [22-24 BHN] at approx. 1200 fps. He had stopped 19 attacks but not number 20. Later found out the bear was hit with 5 out of 6 bullets and died.

Did your cousin survive #20?

[Paul105]

Sounds like the 41 Mag w/250gr hard cast at 1,200 fps is 95 percent effective in stopping bear attacks. Pretty good odds if you ask me.

Sorry about your cousin and #20.

[dhom]

Did your cousin survive #20?
Not that time!

[murf205]

Not that time!
Sorry to hear that. Was he going after a wounded bear of a mama with cubs. Either one is a tragedy waiting to happen. Bison are about as bad, and they can run a LOT faster than a human.

[evoevil]

I just got on a group buy for the MP 275 gr. It should work good. I also load 300 XTP. Got a heavy thump but shoot good to 75 yards