1894P & RD TLC432-300-RF at 300-Yards!

[Ranch Dog]

My bride insisted that I get out and shoot yesterday and being the range is right behind the house, why not!

I decided to run the little, short barrel through some 300-yard testing to see how the 1:38 effects my 300-grain bullet at that distance. With a Bushnell Banner 6-24X40 scope on the rifle I got busy. You can not just start banging away at that distance with a bullet that has almost 100" of drop. I make target panels from a wax paper roll that is 18" wide and 3' long. I place a 4" black square on the target with a orange aim point dot and then mark the target with small orange bulls-eyes for the point of impact at the various ranges; 50, 100, 200, 250, and 300-yards. This saves a lot of work at the range with a cartridge like the 44 Mag that has a huge drop. I made two targets; one for the 50, 100, and 200-yard work and then one for the 250, and 300-yard work. To keep all the various ranges on two 3' targets, I selected a "Zero" of 275-yards. Here is the ballistic table for the given range conditions at the time of testing...

http://www.ranchdogmolds.com/Firearms/1894P/Images/PB1894P432300300YRD.gif

To get out to these distances, I ended maxing out the elevation on the scope and using the MIL DOTs to hold "two" dots high on the point of aim with the bullets doing reasonably well at the point of impact markers. My target frames are 6" square bull panels with dirt berms behind them. Notice that this target was also shot at the 250-yard berm, I only took two shots sighting on the POA and notice the two bullet holes at the top of the target near the POI marker.

http://www.ranchdogmolds.com/Firearms/1894P/Images/300YDS.jpg

There were thunderstorms in the area and I had to suspend my shooting between the two sets of targets because of rain and lightning. So there was some variable winds during the shooting. At 300-yards, I had 7 rounds of ammo remaining and shot them all at that target. Here is what the stats look like as far as MOA and group.

http://www.ranchdogmolds.com/Firearms/1894P/Images/PR1894P432300300YRD.gif

Target #1's statistics (1.17/.61) are from my original post 1894P & RD TLC432-300-RF (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=34220) and were shot at 50-yards. The bullet holes at 300-yards where all crisp 44 caliber holes and I think my shooting would have been a little tighter had the weather been different. The bullets take a while to get out that far, you recover from the recoil and see them hit. I see no signs that they are anything but stable despite the rate of twist and short barrel.

[PatMarlin]

Outstanding Michael.. :drinks:

I need to get out and do the same thing.

[Scrounger]

If I'm reading that right, it's 10-1/2" at 300 yards. Not bad at all. Pity you didn't have time and opportunity to shoot groups with a 240 grain bullet at the same time to see if it were more stable at that range.

[longbow]

I have managed about the same size groups at 200 yards with a 265 gr. bullet but as mentioned in other posts, I have so far not gotten good results with bullets heavier than about 265 gr. and those include both cast and jacketd from 240 to 300 grs. The 300 grainers were often sideways at 100 yards.

While I have been blaming the slow twist, Ranch Dog and others have been claiming good accuracy with heavy bullets and there is the proof. So, I guess I can't blame the slow twist anymore then can I?

Looks like more of a bullet design issue and also indicates that the Ranch Dog design is a good one.

Thanks for that Ranch Dog. Interesting.

I hope your wife is feeling better. Please give her my best wishes.

Longbow

[6pt-sika]

I was quite surprised when I started working with my 336-44 !

At first I was using SR4756 with so so results ! They were good enough for deer out to 100 yards but that was about it !

Then I decided to try H110 and went with 21 grains with the 265'er and 19 with the 300 !

And they shot a good bit better , but again to be honest I had no idea the 44 MAG would stabalize the 300 grain bullet !

Anyway when I finally got around to boosting the powder to 23 grains with the 265 and 21 grains with the 300 I was happy to say the least !

[longbow]

I used 21 gr. H110 with 300 gr. TC cast. They were good to 50 yards, not so good at 75 and sometimes sideways at 100.

I was told to "push 'em hard" for accuracy with heavy bullets but I couldn't push them any harder as 21 grs. H110 was giving flattened primers so was about max.

Not to be put off I went out and bought 300 gr. "J" bullets and tried those. Downright poor groups at 50 yards.

Then I tried a cast RNFP 300 gr. and got the same results as with the TC 300 gr. When I backed weight down to 265 gr. accuracy and stability returned so I chaulked it up to slow twist but I've been proven wrong ~ looks like my bullets weren't the right design.

Ranch Dog knows his stuff.

Longbow

[Ranch Dog]

If I'm reading that right, it's 10-1/2" at 300 yards. Not bad at all. Pity you didn't have time and opportunity to shoot groups with a 240 grain bullet at the same time to see if it were more stable at that range.

True, never should miss an opportunity to shoot! The only 240-grain bullets I have are jacketed verification ammo for the Pressure Trace equipment. It will also be interesting to shoot my 350 grain bullet when they arrive!

Bottom-line is that the bullets were actually designed for the 444 and they happen to shoot in these 44s. I didn't even own a 44 when I went to the drawing board with the designs. My 336-44 shoots them good, but I think this 1894P will end up out shooting it. It is a very impressive rifle! I did feel beat up after shooting these strings, this little carbine packs a wallop on the shooting end but I sure would not want to be on the receiving end!

BTW... nothing special about the ammo or reloading it. For all my 44 stuff I use my Lee Turret Press with the Auto-Index for semi-progressive operation. I use the Auto-Disk powder drop to charge the cases with the Adjustable Charge Bar. I don't bother weighing the charges.

Lowbow... thanks for the well wishes for Dainna. What rifle do you shoot?

[Bass Ackward]

I use a set of Burris Signature Z-Rings for testing long range. Those rings come with and use the variable size plastic inserts from .005 to .020 thick that go around the scope inside the rings. These can be located in any fashion to affect positioning.

Odds are you wouldn't have had to adjusted your scope much at all. I find that and brand of scope doesn't hold recoil as well maxed out and tends to group worse than centrally located. The springs flatten to one side and risk losing tension much the same as they do on the drag of a fishing real.

[Ranch Dog]

I use a set of Burris Signature Z-Rings for testing long range. Those rings come with and use the variable size plastic inserts from .005 to .020 thick that go around the scope inside the rings. These can be located in any fashion to affect positioning.

Odds are you wouldn't have had to adjusted your scope much at all. I find that and brand of scope doesn't hold recoil as well maxed out and tends to group worse than centrally located. The springs flatten to one side and risk losing tension much the same as they do on the drag of a fishing real.

I don't use this scope very much at all as it is just for testing purposes. My Bushnell Banner 1.5-4.5X32 is already back on the 94P. I mean, this distance is so far out of the norm for this cartridge and that type of scope would hurt you in the huntings situations this rifle is designed for. It does slip on an off the Weaver bases real easy and I don't mind the work at the various yardages as POA vs. POI verifies bullet stability.

With the 50-yard performance from this cartridge, bullet, and rifle, I'm not sure why you would need to worry about any issue?

http://www.ranchdogmolds.com/images/Firearms/1894P/210_H110_080804.gif

[longbow]

Ranch Dog:

I am using a Marlin 1894 .44 mag. with 1:38 microgroove rifling, stock open sights.

The original mould I started with was the Lyman 429421 which I do not like at all. Even crimped over the front driving band it doesn't feed well as the shoulder hangs up on the chamber mouth. Also, I have found the bullet to give mdiocre accuracy at all ranges, though in fairness the mould casts right about 0.429" and my barrel groove diameter is 0.4315" so the bullet is a little undersize. I haven't bothered to lap the mould out because I don't like the bullet.

Next, I used a homemade pushout mould in RNFP in weights from 240 gr. to 300 gr. At up to 265 grs., this mould does well.

Next was 300 gr. TC paper patched bullets which as mentioned did well at 50 yards but not so well after. Same design in lighter weight shoot fine.

Next were Speer 300 gr. jacketed and they shot poorly as well so I decided it was the slow twist.

One thing I did find after a visit to the Marlinowners site were the infamous tight spots at dovetails in the barrel so I carefully lapped those out. I don't see any significant increase in accuracy with the lighter bullets (they always shot well anyway) but I haven't been getting leading since lapping, where I used to get a little even with 0.433" bullets.

I have not tried the heavier bullets since lapping which I guess I should do. You just never know.

In any case, you have certainly proven that a 300 gr. bullet can be shot well out of the 1:38 twist. I will have to try again but it may be a while, I have way too many things keeping me from having fun lately. I'll let you know the results when I get to it. Maybe I need a Ranch Dog mould!

Thanks for the info and all your effort.

Longbow