A .50-70 Govt. Ballard!

[marlinman93]

I advised a friend on buying this Marlin Ballard #4 Perfection about 4 years ago. I wanted it badly, but it was his deal so I couldn't interfere. I did tell him if he ever parted with it I wanted first chance to get it!
About 4 months ago he called and asked if I was still interested, and of course I was! Because of his health issues it took 4 months to complete the deal, and those were very tough months, as I was sure the deal would fall apart at any time! This morning he brought it to our local collector gun show and I finally bought it.
According to John Dutcher's book on Ballard history, "Early catalogs list the #4 in .40-70, .44-77SBN, and .50-70 Government. But these three calibers were fast becoming obsolete and it's doubtful many were produced in those calibers."
I've never seen another in this caliber, and would agree with John's thoughts on how scarce the .50-70 Govt. caliber is!

This Ballard is a 3 digit serial number 59X and is typical of many early JM Marlin Ballards in that it uses some leftover parts from the previous Brown Mfg. Co. rifles. The receiver and wood are Marlin, but that's all. The lever, hammer, trigger, and buttplate are from the Brown Mfg. company parts given to Marlin by Schoverling & Daley. And the barrels are even more unique! Marlin did not make .50 caliber barrels, so they sent a note to Sharps Rifle Co. and ordered some of their .50 caliber barrels. So this Ballard has Sharps rifling style, and not Ballard style! Just another unique part of this #4 Perfection!

Barrel is a heavy 30" full octagon.
https://i.imgur.com/CQZepLkl.jpg

Forged receiver with Brown hammer. Rear sight is strangely engraved, and may be another item from a deluxe Brown rifle?

https://i.imgur.com/z3vcoB4l.jpg

Short Brown trigger and reverse loop lever:

https://i.imgur.com/G3p4vCHl.jpg

Some early Marlin Ballards had a pin in the frame to match the Brown lever, but they were inconsistent and this one doesn't. My other #4 is serial #48X and it has both pin and lever with hole.

https://i.imgur.com/jDx2UFIl.jpg

The gun shows signs of a lot of carrying across a saddle, as the bottom of the forearm is well worn, and not much finish on the metal. But the action is as tight as I've ever seen on a Ballard, and the bore is perfect! I found a new box of Bell brass in .50-70 Govt., so once I slug the bore and order some bullets, I'll load up a box and take it for a spin!

[tim338]

Sweet rifle!

[ascast]

don't get hurt ! send that to me for proper testing

[Bigslug]

One of my favorite jug-busting cartridges, in that you can take the shot, crack open a soda as the smoke clears, and be settled back and three sips in before impact. . .which you can also hear, because the muzzle blast is a distant memory by then. Recommend you find a mold with a big ugly meplat.:mrgreen:

[marlinman93]

One of my favorite jug-busting cartridges, in that you can take the shot, crack open a soda as the smoke clears, and be settled back and three sips in before impact. . .which you can also hear, because the muzzle blast is a distant memory by then. Recommend you find a mold with a big ugly meplat.:mrgreen:

I'll probably try to start out buying some bullets before I consider getting a mold. I do love to have a mold for every caliber, but until I've fired this one a little and see how it feels, I don't want to buy a mold.

And since I own almost exclusively Ballard and Remington single shot rifles, this Ballard with it's factory Sharps barrel will give me a taste of how a Sharps .50-70 shoots! ;)
It's interesting to see the difference in how Sharps did their rifling vs. Marlin's Ballard rifling. Sharps is shallower, with different width lands and grooves. Definitely very much different than what I'm used to seeing in a Ballard.

[Bigslug]

I'll probably try to start out buying some bullets before I consider getting a mold. I do love to have a mold for every caliber, but until I've fired this one a little and see how it feels, I don't want to buy a mold.

I expect it'll end up being a custom cut job, to be sure.

I've got to state a mild degree of envy here. I've shot the round in a trapdoor and a rolling block; the notion of that low speed thumper in a much sleeker Ballard or High Wall is tantalizing. . . My little kid brain wants to equate it to a REALLY upscaled .22 Short Winder Musket - as youths, we experimented with different plinking targets just to learn what the bullet would do to them. .50's just make you want to revisit the concept.[smilie=w:

[marlinman93]

I expect it'll end up being a custom cut job, to be sure.

I've got to state a mild degree of envy here. I've shot the round in a trapdoor and a rolling block; the notion of that low speed thumper in a much sleeker Ballard or High Wall is tantalizing. . . My little kid brain wants to equate it to a REALLY upscaled .22 Short Winder Musket - as youths, we experimented with different plinking targets just to learn what the bullet would do to them. .50's just make you want to revisit the concept.[smilie=w:

I almost never buy cast bullets, as I have 4 dozen molds. But I decided to first see what the gun likes, so this morning I ordered some 365 gr. .512" bullets after slugging the bore and finding it is almost .511". I also have some bullets a friend sent me that are 500 gr. and @.515", but his mold must be out of round. I measured them at the parting line and 90 degrees off and got .515" and .519"! So I will also need to buy a .512" sizer for my Lyman lubrisizer and run his through first to get them concentric, and closer to the size I need.
Have the bullets, dies, and some more brass coming in a week. Midway had free shipping on orders over $99 today, so took advantage of that and ordered enough to save the $11 shipping.

[marlinman93]

Did a complete disassembly and deep cleaning today! Probably never been apart before from what I saw! I got it cleaned up, and then dug out an old Ballard midrange tang sight I had with matching patina. Had to drill out the plug screws with a left hand drill bit and they unscrewed when I got them almost drilled out! Love those left hand drill bits!!

https://i.imgur.com/IvVidUVl.jpg?1

[bruce drake]

Starline makes good and affordable 50-70 brass also.

[Chill Wills]

Did a complete disassembly and deep cleaning today! Probably never been apart before from what I saw! I got it cleaned up, and then dug out an old Ballard midrange tang sight I had with matching patina. Had to drill out the plug screws with a left hand drill bit and they unscrewed when I got them almost drilled out! Love those left hand drill bits!!

Two thumbs up for this rifle. If I was its custodian, I would find it almost irresistible to keep from shooting it now and then. Maybe a date with a mule deer too.
I know not everyone hunts, but I do, and a load of Fg and a copy of the Govt. bullet.... The rifle might enjoy it and much as me! ;):D

Very nice!

[blackbahart]

sweet ole thumper

[Bigslug]

Tang sight. . .you clever boy!

The trajectory is such that you should be able to lock on for two reasonable distances and probably not have the rear barrel sight dirty up the sight picture for the tang mounted one.

You are headed for an obscene amount of fun. A key element of .50-70 enjoyment is to get in the habit of saying "Waaaait for it" immediately after pulling the trigger.

[marlinman93]

Starline makes good and affordable 50-70 brass also.

Yes, I ordered more Starline brass from Midway with my bullet and dies order.

[marlinman93]

Two thumbs up for this rifle. If I was its custodian, I would find it almost irresistible to keep from shooting it now and then. Maybe a date with a mule deer too.
I know not everyone hunts, but I do, and a load of Fg and a copy of the Govt. bullet.... The rifle might enjoy it and much as me! ;):D

Very nice!

Your thoughts mirror mine. Since the Ballard is not a high finish gun, I have no problem taking it out hunting, and occasional shooting. Sure don't want to break it, but I doubt that will happen with good loads.

[marlinman93]

Tang sight. . .you clever boy!

The trajectory is such that you should be able to lock on for two reasonable distances and probably not have the rear barrel sight dirty up the sight picture for the tang mounted one.

You are headed for an obscene amount of fun. A key element of .50-70 enjoyment is to get in the habit of saying "Waaaait for it" immediately after pulling the trigger.

I've never owned or fired a .50-70, and really hadn't ever had a desire to. But I've lusted after this particular Ballard for some time now, and I'm looking forward to the experience of shooting this gun in .50-70! I hope it's as much fun as you described, as it means I'll shoot it even more!!

[Reverend Al]

I sure envy you your new acquisition. I have a .50-70 Govt. in a NY Militia Rolling Block with a perfect barrel, but with my love of Ballards I'd rather have yours!

[oscarflytyer]

So... NEVER seen one of these before. Nor did I know of some of the history you mentioned. And then, low and behold, I drop into the LGS at lunch. "Got to show you this..." and another "...this..." Second this was a Ballard #5 Perfection that looks exactly like yours, albeit a slightly smaller bore - 45-70 - or 45 Govt as stamped on the top of the bbl flat! And has a double set trigger. VERY COOL! 5 digit serial #, estimated ~1881 or so. Bore looks pristine. Assume this one has the Ballard bbl (not Sharps) as it is in 45-70. And best part is, I might get to shoot it!208615208616208617

[marlinman93]

So... NEVER seen one of these before. Nor did I know of some of the history you mentioned. And then, low and behold, I drop into the LGS at lunch. "Got to show you this..." and another "...this..." Second this was a Ballard #5 Perfection that looks exactly like yours, albeit a slightly smaller bore - 45-70 - or 45 Govt as stamped on the top of the bbl flat! And has a double set trigger. VERY COOL! 5 digit serial #, estimated ~1881 or so. Bore looks pristine. Assume this one has the Ballard bbl (not Sharps) as it is in 45-70. And best part is, I might get to shoot it!208615208616208617

A 5 digit serial number is just the beginning of figuring out the year. Prior to 1881 the receivers were marked "JM Marlin" and after 1881 they were marked "Marlin Firearms Co." So if that Pacific #5 is marked JM Marlin it's likely 1880 or 1881, but if it's Marlin Firearms, it's much later than 1881. Since you mentioned the caliber is marked on top of the barrel, I'm going to guess it's the latter Marlin Firearms Co. version, as most JM Marlin Ballards did not have a caliber marking.
For some odd reason when Marlin incorporated in 1881 they started the serial numbers over again, so you can find Ballard rifles with either marking and the same serial number!
If that Ballard has double set triggers and a wiping rod under the barrel, it is a #5, but a Pacific. The #4 was the Perfection, not the #5 which was the Pacific.
All Marlin Ballards will have a Marlin barrel, with the exception of the .50-70, and a very few .44-77SBN barrels.

[oscarflytyer]

"If that Ballard has double set triggers and a wiping rod under the barrel, it is a #5, but a Pacific. The #4 was the Perfection, not the #5 which was the Pacific."

This one DEF has double set triggers AND a "wiping rod" (lol! - we called it a cleaning rod, ala muzzleloader!) under the bbl. So it is a Pacific! Thanx!

[marlinman93]

Cleaning rod or wiping rod are both acceptable. Just not a "ramrod" as I see some people calling them. When I bought my first Pacific at a local auction, the tag said, "Marlin muzzleloader"! It was a clock auction and only 4 or 5 guns for sale, so only me and another guy bidding to buy it. I love finding guns mismarked and at odd sales where those running them are clueless!

[john.k]

I havent seen a bargain at a clearing sale since mobile phones became common.Even the laziest auctioneer now has values at his fingertips.The days of $5 sleepers are gone until the big depression hits.

[marlinman93]

Midway finally sent my dies, bullets and brass! So I have two different weight bullets to try and work up loads now. See which weight, and powder charge the Ballard prefers.

[OlDeuce]

Midway finally sent my dies, bullets and brass! So I have two different weight bullets to try and work up loads now. See which weight, and powder charge the Ballard prefers.

Your Ballards love it No matter what....... every time you take them out for a shoot!!! Tehehe Have you found in some cases lighter bullets become more accurate ! and the heavier ones are great for the windy days !!!!

Ol Deuce

[Bigslug]

Just make sure if you wear a PAST recoil shield when you shoot this thing, you refer to it as "your baseplate"

209280

:bigsmyl2:

[Jedman]

You will enjoy shooting the 50-70. To me the cartridge looks like a GIANT 22 rimfire but has a considerable thump.

Jedman

[marlinman93]

My previous experience with Ballard rifles having the early Brown style deep crescent buttplate have taught me to always wear my Past recoil pad when shooting them!
I located a cheap mold today that drops a .512" bullet at 425 grs., so bought it also. It might end up being the best weight for this .50-70. So I'll wait to load until I cast some of the 425 gr. bullets also. I already have 365 gr., and 500 gr. Not sure if the heavy bullets work well that I'll want to shoot many?

[John in PA]

What a delightful find! Congrats on your .50-70 #4. Now you'll have to put up some target pics once you find a diet it "digests" well. ;-)

[marlinman93]

In my usual fashion, I forgot to order a shell holder! Well actually I just thought with about a hundred shell holders for various calibers I had one that would work. Well that was wrong, so had to order a shell holder too. But of course forgot to order two, so I could cut one base off to use in my Lee hand priming tool.
But I did muddle through with the one shell holder using my Rock Chucker press to load and prime the 40 cases I have. Hope to take it out in the near future and see how the 8 different charges, with 3 different bullet weights work out.
I ordered an inexpensive Lee two cavity 450 gr. mold also, so I'd have a 3rd choice for bullet weights.

[sharpsguy]

The Lyman 515141 is all you need to know.

[marlinman93]

The Lyman 515141 is all you need to know.

I've always been a huge Ideal and Lyman mold fan. That 515141 looks like the same design that Lee used on their 90255. They could be twins, except Lee is their typical aluminum mold, which is not up to the Lyman steel molds.

https://www.midwayusa.com/product/434163/lee-2-cavity-bullet-mold-515-450-f-50-70-government-515-diameter-450-grain-flat-nose

But I wont be shooting this gun a huge amount (I think) so the Lee should be acceptable for my use. Thanks for the tip on the Lyman though!

[missionary5155]

Good morning
Nice rifle ! I do enjoy our Marlin / Ballards out for a walk. And a caliber 50 Gov to boot ! That will slew a corn cruncher ! Or horse or...
Mike in Peru

[Bigslug]

Round out yet?

Inquiring minds want to know! :mrgreen:

[marlinman93]

Round out yet?

Inquiring minds want to know! :mrgreen:

As a matter of fact I did just finally get a break in the cold, rainy weather last week and took the big .50 out to do some testing. I only fired it at 100 yds., and my best group was with the 425 gr. bullets cast from the cheapo Lee mold I bought, and 18.0 grs. of 2400.
The 5 shot groups were all in the 2" black bullseye on my targets, and smallest group size was 1.5" with the largest 5 shot group just inside the 2" bull. I am using the gallery style non vernier tang sight, so adjusting elevation took some fiddling, since the aperture needed to be loosened and carefully slid up-down. But once I found center it did the job well. I also want to swap the front German silver blade out to something more squared and easier to see if I start pushing the distance out farther.
Probably wont get out often this winter unless we get another warm, dry spell.

[Bigslug]

So. . .you've got a 2 MOA rifle that you haven't even fit a bullet for yet, using a light smokeless powder charge that's probably - what . . .only about 20% load density rattling around in that case?

I's happy fer ya! [smilie=p:

[marlinman93]

"Haven't fit a bullet for"??? Not sure what you might mean by fitting a bullet? I slug my bores and try to buy bullet molds that cast the correct size for my various calibers. I only own a few custom molds, and a few more old Lyman molds I've opened up to make them custom sized. The rest of my 4 dozen molds are all factory Ideal, Lyman, RCBS, Saeco, etc. Never fit a bullet to a gun, but never had much trouble with factory molds sized to a gun's bore.

I've had good results with reduced loads using 2400 and Unique over the decades.

[Bigslug]

"Haven't fit a bullet for"??? Not sure what you might mean by fitting a bullet?

I get these strange calls from my dad from time to time, asking me to come over and help pound a chamber slug for something that was made in 18--. Sometimes the off-the-shelf mold drawing gives us the "EUREKA!" moment, but more often than not, Tom is increasing or decreasing diameters, adding or removing grooves, or moving ogives around. Such is life in the pre-SAMMI world. The Lee mold is working for you (HUZZAH!) - the universe usually doesn't like US that much.

[marlinman93]

I've heard of people "pounding a chamber slug" and it gives me the willies! I never liked the idea of pounding anything into my gun's chamber. I usually do a chamber cast with Cerrosafe to look at the bore and first part of the rifling. I did one on this gun, just because I wanted to confirm it was an unmessed with chamber. I did slug the bore to get the groove diameter, and make sure I cast the correct bullet size.
Most of the best Ideal/Lyman molds have been around for a decade or close to it. I've always felt any design that was still being offered today must have been pretty darn good. I wish they had kept offering some other great designs they dropped decades ago, but they determined molds like the old Doc Hudson for .38-55 and .32-40 to be specialty molds they didn't sell enough of. I have both, and they're one of my most prized possessions in molds!