TC Hawken .45

[KMac]

208494


We were at my wife's uncle for Thanksgiving. I was showing him the Marlin Model 36 that he had given me and I had cleaned up, refinished the stock and smoothed up. He was excited about it and asked what my next project was. I told him my fifteen year old son was really wanting us to put a MZ kit together. I told him I had been watching for a TC Hawken kit.

He said I want to show you something. He brought out a 1972 TC Hawken that he bought when he was a youngster. He had loaned it out for a season a few years ago and got it back with a corroded and ruined barrel. He put a brand new 45 barrel on it and has never fired it since then. He Hunts with a TC Encore .50 MZ now so it is not being used.

Then he handed it to my son and said to enjoy it. It is downright beautiful. Only a couple of minor scratches in the wood and none on the metal. I have never had a muzzleloader so I am trying to do all my research before we go and shoot it, He gave us some Hornady .440 Roundballs and 1 pound of Triple 7 FFG.

Will T7 FFG be a good powder for shooting the Roundballs and what would a good starting load be. Need it nice and soft for my son to start with but accurate. Also what thickness of patches should we be using?

[mooman76]

If you want light loads to start off with, I'd start off with around 35gr. You could actually start out low as you want but he should be able to handle that easy. Work up with 5gr increments until you find where you want to be or best accuracy. 777 is a little harder to light so I'd also use magnum caps if you can find them. About a .015 patch would be a good place to start. Pop a couple caps on an empty gun before you load. It helps dry up any residual oil left in the gun. Run a couple cleaning patches with solvent or alcohol down the bore to clean out anything inside also. Have fun, that's what it is all about.

[KMac]

Thank you. That is all good advice and I️ really appreciate it. I️ will pick up some magnum caps. Should I️ pick up another powder for it or will the T7 be fine with the magnum caps?


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[quilbilly]

I have two T/C 45's and both are exceptionally accurate with my own cast PRB in front of 55 gr of 3F Goex. I have no experience with Triple 7 and have never used anything but standard #11 caps. Both rifles have filled the freezer many, many times with venison (both mule deer and blacktail) using PRB by both me and my wife. You are very fortunate.

[Eddie Southgate]

If you can't find the Magnum caps you can get a nipple that uses a musket cap from either Dixie Gun Works or Track Of The Wolf . It is the same 1/4-28 thread as the Thompson but uses the hotter musket cap . You can get the regular (looks like a little hat ) musket caps or one that looks like a regular cap but larger . I change to this setup on all of my TC Hawken rifles .

Eddie

[KMac]

I have two T/C 45's and both are exceptionally accurate with my own cast PRB in front of 55 gr of 3F Goex. I have no experience with Triple 7 and have never used anything but standard #11 caps. Both rifles have filled the freezer many, many times with venison (both mule deer and blacktail) using PRB by both me and my wife. You are very fortunate.

Thank you. I probably will pick up a pound of 3F Goex and give it a try too.

[KMac]

If you can't find the Magnum caps you can get a nipple that uses a musket cap from either Dixie Gun Works or Track Of The Wolf . It is the same 1/4-28 thread as the Thompson but uses the hotter musket cap . You can get the regular (looks like a little hat ) musket caps or one that looks like a regular cap but larger . I change to this setup on all of my TC Hawken rifles .

Eddie

I did see that on Track of the Wolf last night. I am right by a Cabelas and they have a pretty good selection of BP stuff. If they do not carry the #11 magnums I may give that a try. I was wondering how that musket cap conversion worked. Thanks for letting me know.

[dondiego]

Run the ramrod down the bore and determine that it goes all of the way to the breech to ensure that there is not anything in the bore. Then shoot a cap at a leaf or blade of grass. The leaf should move from the shot and will ensure that the nipple and chamber are clear. It is a pain to load and then find out that your nipple was too clogged to fire the charge. That scenario requires further procedures. Procedures that you will learn the first time that you load it without powder..........not if, but when.

[KMac]

Run the ramrod down the bore and determine that it goes all of the way to the breech to ensure that there is not anything in the bore. Then shoot a cap at a leaf or blade of grass. The leaf should move from the shot and will ensure that the nipple and chamber are clear. It is a pain to load and then find out that your nipple was too clogged to fire the charge. That scenario requires further procedures. Procedures that you will learn the first time that you load it without powder..........not if, but when.

It is a new barrel that has never been fired but that is still good advice since it has been sitting in his shop standing in the corner for a few years.

[LUCKYDAWG13]

Wow thats just Awesome I have one in 45 and in 50 I have not shot them in years so i wont give you a load but this may help you https://www.tcarms.com/pdfs/uploads/manuals/Hawken_Manual.pdf

[mooman76]

I have never fired 777 but to have some. Just haven't tried it yet. I hear some others sometimes have trouble getting it to fire off at times and others have no problem. If you can real BP that is the best stuff and easiest to light. I have used Pyrodex without any problems. Remember BP and most subs are highly corrosive and need to be cleaned as soon as possible meaning same day fired. Some even like to clean in the field before taking home.

[nicholst55]

Being brand new to muzzle loaders, this is almost mandatory. Insert the ramrod into the empty barrel until it bottoms out. Mark a ring around the rod even with the muzzle with a Sharpie. This allows a dead nuts certain test to determine if the rifle is loaded or not. You may never need to conduct this test, but if you do, you are now prepared.

[KMac]

Wow thats just Awesome I have one in 45 and in 50 I have not shot them in years so i wont give you a load but this may help you https://www.tcarms.com/pdfs/uploads/manuals/Hawken_Manual.pdf

Thank you. I️ downloaded it and will go over it thoroughly.

[KMac]

I have never fired 777 but to have some. Just haven't tried it yet. I hear some others sometimes have trouble getting it to fire off at times and others have no problem. If you can real BP that is the best stuff and easiest to light. I have used Pyrodex without any problems. Remember BP and most subs are highly corrosive and need to be cleaned as soon as possible meaning same day fired. Some even like to clean in the field before taking home.

That will be the thing I️ have to learn immediately. To clean it thoroughly after I️ shoot it without waiting. I️ am going to try to shoot yo the 777. Thanks for the advice.

[KMac]

Being brand new to muzzle loaders, this is almost mandatory. Insert the ramrod into the empty barrel until it bottoms out. Mark a ring around the rod even with the muzzle with a Sharpie. This allows a dead nuts certain test to determine if the rifle is loaded or not. You may never need to conduct this test, but if you do, you are now prepared.

That is a good idea. I️ will make sure I️ do it. Never can be too safe. Thanks for that.

[quilbilly]

Run the ramrod down the bore and determine that it goes all of the way to the breech to ensure that there is not anything in the bore. Then shoot a cap at a leaf or blade of grass. The leaf should move from the shot and will ensure that the nipple and chamber are clear. It is a pain to load and then find out that your nipple was too clogged to fire the charge. That scenario requires further procedures. Procedures that you will learn the first time that you load it without powder..........not if, but when.
Amen to this. You should always do this just to make sure nothing is in the flash channel like a little oil. Sometime even this doesn't work so you have to develop a sense of humor when the deer is standing there laughing at you while you fumble for another cap.

[mooman76]

A couple more beginner tips. Never fire you weapon without the projectile being fully seated on the powder. Do what it takes to get it in or you have to pull it out. If your gun fails to fire, keep popping caps, it will usually fire after one or two more firings but if it doesn't you can remove the nipple and sprinkle as much powder in the channel. I won't be much but it doesn't take much either.

[KMac]

Thank you guys for all of the info. This forum is the best group of guys and gals in the world. Please keep the tips coming. I don't want to learn anything the hard way that I don't have to.

[Beerd]

one more tip: the guy at Cabela's might not be the best expert on muzzleloaders to listen to, especially if he is trying to sell you something.

[mooman76]

one more tip: the guy at Cabela's might not be the best expert on muzzleloaders to listen to, especially if he is trying to sell you something.

+1 on that. I don't think they would intentionally steer you wrong but some don't realize a ML is a completely different animal. I've heard of them selling or trying to sell smokeless powder to someone wanting ML supplies.

[Eddie Southgate]

The 777 is absolutely not corrosive . The Pyrodex on the other hand is very corrosive , more so in my opinion than real black powder . My dad was a fan of the 777 , I shoot real black mostly . You can always throw 10 grains of black First and then the rest of your charge in 777 . Let the black light the sub . I have done this with a flint gun and Pyrodex back before I figured out that it was not something I wanted to be shooting anyway . I found a closeout at Walmart one year after hunting season and bought 15 pounds at $5.00 per pound so I had to try it . Gave most of it to a guy I really didn't like much .:mrgreen:

Eddie

[OverMax]

Have quite a few T/C sidelocks. 58 54 50 & 45. The 45 Hawken is my favorite for deer hunting. 45s are not like its Brother-en calibers in recoil. Instead of a sharp kick the 45 is more of a rearward push on the shoulder. About the same as a 410 2-1/2" shot-shell. Being your Hawken has a new barrel expect the first few patched ball rod'ed to be a bit difficult. Although

Before shooting you need to determine if there is a ball in the barrel? If not encountering a previous seated ball.

Drop the ram rod down the barrel all the way to the breech. Then circle mark the Rod at muzzles end. Some shooters lightly mark their Ram Rod with a razor blade others prefer a Sharpie. That's called: (Ledger Marking a Ram Rod.) __Doing prevents its shooter from thinking "Gee I forgot? did I ram a ball down or not?" Drop the rifles Rod into the bore its Ledger Mark never lies.

My first shot is my best shot so I like its patched ball to be a little {tighter} bore fitting. That ball measures .445 w/a OxYoke .010" patch. Following/follow-up shots are .440 ball with the same size patch. Expect to fire off 3 maybe 4 shots depending on how fouled the bore is. There after the bore needs to be wet swabbed than dry swabbed before its firing again. Don't forget to fire off a Cap before loading to clear its Firing channel of debre or water.

I don't use troublesome substitute powders (pyrodex RS or P _American Pioneer or Alliant's Black MZ ) or powders designed to be used in inlines (T-777-or-Black Horn 209) Only Gorex 2-FFG Black Powder. Volume measured to 78.

I tried 3-FFFG Gorex. But I quickly found 2-FFG Gorex gave a bit better accuracy in my powder experiments.
As far as a patching lube? OxYoke Wonder Lube is my recommendation. T/C's Bore Butter isn't as good as the Wonder lube is. Just more messy is all.

[KMac]

+1 on that. I don't think they would intentionally steer you wrong but some don't realize a ML is a completely different animal. I've heard of them selling or trying to sell smokeless powder to someone wanting ML supplies.

That is funny you say that. Ran to Cabelas today to see what they had. They did not have any #11 caps that I️ could see. Asked the guy there if they might have any in another location and he did not even know what they were. Then he started showing me the Inline that he wanted to buy. Kinda scary. However some of the guys that work there know their stuff. Most don’t.

[KMac]

Have quite a few T/C sidelocks. 58 54 50 & 45. The 45 Hawken is my favorite for deer hunting. 45s are not like its Brother-en calibers in recoil. Instead of a sharp kick the 45 is more of a rearward push on the shoulder. About the same as a 410 2-1/2" shot-shell. Being your Hawken has a new barrel expect the first few patched ball rod'ed to be a bit difficult. Although

Before shooting you need to determine if there is a ball in the barrel? If not encountering a previous seated ball.

Drop the ram rod down the barrel all the way to the breech. Then circle mark the Rod at muzzles end. Some shooters lightly mark their Ram Rod with a razor blade others prefer a Sharpie. That's called: (Ledger Marking a Ram Rod.) __Doing prevents its shooter from thinking "Gee I forgot? did I ram a ball down or not?" Drop the rifles Rod into the bore its Ledger Mark never lies.

My first shot is my best shot so I like its patched ball to be a little {tighter} bore fitting. That ball measures .445 w/a OxYoke .010" patch. Following/follow-up shots are .440 ball with the same size patch. Expect to fire off 3 maybe 4 shots depending on how fouled the bore is. There after the bore needs to be wet swabbed than dry swabbed before its firing again. Don't forget to fire off a Cap before loading to clear its Firing channel of debre or water.

I don't use troublesome substitute powders (pyrodex RS or P _American Pioneer or Alliant's Black MZ ) or powders designed to be used in inlines (T-777-or-Black Horn 209) Only Gorex 2-FFG Black Powder. Volume measured to 78.

I tried 3-FFFG Gorex. But I quickly found 2-FFG Gorex gave a bit better accuracy in my powder experiments.
As far as a patching lube? OxYoke Wonder Lube is my recommendation. T/C's Bore Butter isn't as good as the Wonder lube is. Just more messy is all.

Thank you very much. More great advice. I️ really appreciate it. I️ will look up the Ox Yoke Wonder lube. Seems like I️ saw it at Track of the Wolf.

[AntiqueSledMan]

KMac,

I have a .50 Hawken from about 1977 - 78. It shoots Patched Round Balls & Powerbelts very well. It will even shoot my RCBS 45-300 cast bullet in a sabot very well. I do use FFFG Triple Seven with Remington #11 caps with no issues. I must warn you that Thompson Center no longer builds Side Locks, and the replacement nipple 7070 is over .100" shorter than the originals. I discovered this a few years back but found an exact replacement for them, Treso's Ampco Nipple # 11-50-01.
You can see my discovery on, http://1858remington.com/discuss/index.php/topic,9701.msg161954.html#msg161954

AntiqueSledMan

[KMac]

KMac,

I have a .50 Hawken from about 1977 - 78. It shoots Patched Round Balls & Powerbelts very well. It will even shoot my RCBS 45-300 cast bullet in a sabot very well. I do use FFFG Triple Seven with Remington #11 caps with no issues. I must warn you that Thompson Center no longer builds Side Locks, and the replacement nipple 7070 is over .100" shorter than the originals. I discovered this a few years back but found an exact replacement for them, Treso's Ampco Nipple # 11-50-01.
You can see my discovery on, http://1858remington.com/discuss/index.php/topic,9701.msg161954.html#msg161954

AntiqueSledMan

AntiqueSledMan,
Thank you for the info.
I️ bought some Remington #11 caps because that is all I️ could find locally.
Good to hear that they worked for you.
I️ will look up Tresco’s Ampco replacement nipples and get some ordered.
Thanks again.



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[OverMax]

If wanting a nipple to last & last do not dry fire your rifles lock.

[rond]

While 777 is noncorrosive the caps are not so don't let it sit overnight after use without wiping down the nipple and area around it including the hammer, then apply oil. The barrel can wait a while.

[dondiego]

I thought that modern percussion caps were non corrosive just like normal cartridge primers. Do they use a different compound?

[Eddie Southgate]

I thought that modern percussion caps were non corrosive just like normal cartridge primers. Do they use a different compound?

CCI claims Non Corrosive and non mercuric . I would imagine all the other modern caps are the same . Most of mine are 30 years old or older and are corrosive . I wipe down with Windex and then oil , would advise the same with the modern caps as stated above by rond .

[KMac]

I️ did not know that the caps may be corrosive. Thank you guys for that info. I️ think I️ will take Rond and Eddie Southgates advice and wipe the nipple down and oil it just to be sure.


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[mooman76]

It's a good idea to remove the nipple once in awhile to clean and oil the threads. Otherwise you may have difficulty one time removing the nipple when it needs replaced. I do like every other time I shoot.

[Eddie Southgate]

It's a good idea to remove the nipple once in awhile to clean and oil the threads. Otherwise you may have difficulty one time removing the nipple when it needs replaced. I do like every other time I shoot.

+1 100% . Also do not over tighten , screw it in till it stops and no more .

[dondiego]

It's a good idea to remove the nipple once in awhile to clean and oil the threads. Otherwise you may have difficulty one time removing the nipple when it needs replaced. I do like every other time I shoot.

I use a metal based anti seize thread grease.

[quilbilly]

It's a good idea to remove the nipple once in awhile to clean and oil the threads. Otherwise you may have difficulty one time removing the nipple when it needs replaced. I do like every other time I shoot.
Another amen to that. I take out the nipple after every shooting day to clean it after I fully clean the barrel then grease the threads before replacing the nipple.

[shdwlkr]

If you have trouble getting real bp you can go to sportsmans warehouse and by black MZ for $10.00 a pound. Over the years I have had several cap locks and found that almost anything that is to be used in bp firearms works some better than others you just have to try and find out. Some 45 calibers like a .440 round ball, others like .445 round ball and still others like smaller round balls. Pay attention to your patching material, lube you use. try and load the same way each time you load. With the tc side locks you can take the barrel out of the rifle and use soap and water to clean, I like to use dawn and as hot of water as I can still hold onto the barrel. I have done that for almost 40 years now and it has worked for me YMMV.

[KMac]

If you have trouble getting real bp you can go to sportsmans warehouse and by black MZ for $10.00 a pound. Over the years I have had several cap locks and found that almost anything that is to be used in bp firearms works some better than others you just have to try and find out. Some 45 calibers like a .440 round ball, others like .445 round ball and still others like smaller round balls. Pay attention to your patching material, lube you use. try and load the same way each time you load. With the tc side locks you can take the barrel out of the rifle and use soap and water to clean, I like to use dawn and as hot of water as I can still hold onto the barrel. I have done that for almost 40 years now and it has worked for me YMMV.
I have been out of town for work this week and I finally got a little time this evening to clean it . I ran a patch down the barrel and it was dirty. Pulled the barrel off and ran soap and water down it. It was clean pretty quick. This Hawken had sat in my wife's Uncle's shop in the corner, barrel up for probably 10 years without being touched. Even thought the barrel had never been shot since it was put on new it had collected a lot of dirt and such just sitting there. I am getting clean patches now and I think it was just from setting there and collecting dust. I am going to try to make the time to go and shoot it this weekend and I think I have every thing I need to get started. Thanks to all of you who have given advice on this. I cannot tell you how much I appreciate each and every one of you. I will let you know how it goes.

[725]

All these guys beat me to the good info!! Mostly, I could repeat what they said. It's all good info. Each gun is a thing unto itself. Even if all the above works, your gun might prefer this or that over that or this. You just have to experiment for yourself. I've always found real black to be more accurate than substitutes, just dirtier. 777 is more energetic than Pyrodex, but they both work. I've had many 777 loads more accurate than Pyrodex, but then a few Pyrodex loads have been more accurate than 777. Depends on your gun / boolit combo I think. Musket caps provide more flame and are much easier to handle than those tiny #11 caps. (at least for my sausage like fingers). In a clean gun, they both work just fine. A marked ram rod is essential to determine if a gun is loaded or not. Use it every time. In preparing a gun to shoot, I snap a cap in the EMPTY gun with a cleaning rod inserted and a dry cleaning patch attached. Any oil / solvent in the nipple area is broadcast onto the patch and then is removed when the rod is withdrawn. NEVER dry fire on a naked nipple. It bends the nipple. In the .45 calibers, I prefer FFFg type powders but FFg also work. (use less FFFg than FFg when working up your loads). When done shooting, clean the gun with a water based solvent - or even just hot water. Remove the nipple, swab the barrel, tooth brush / Q-tip the hammer -- basically everything in sight. I dry it and then leave it wet with a solvent / rust preventative for a day or two, and then I clean it all over again. No matter how well I clean it the first time, I always get more off the second time. The solvents keep working and dislodging debris as it sits around. Left unattended, that debris will lead to corrosion. Good luck & have fun.

[bigiron]

What 725 said. I have a 45 Green Mountain LR barrel on mine and have always shot 3F T-7. In my rifle it shoots great

[Edward]

It's a good idea to remove the nipple once in awhile to clean and oil the threads. Otherwise you may have difficulty one time removing the nipple when it needs replaced. I do like every other time I shoot. Better yet remove /clean and then apply never seize found at your auto parts store and never get stuck again :bigsmyl2:

[LAGS]

I have to dig it out, but a couple years back I picked up a TC Hawken in .45 at a LGS that someone had built from a kit.
But it looks like they never fired it.
They did a decent job on it, and I intended on re doing the whole thing and Fancy it up a bit, sights and reshaping the stock to sharpen up the lines like on the cheek piece and the lock.
I did take it out twice and shoot it, and I really like it.
But other projects have got in the way for the time being, like rebuilding a .56 Smoothbore Renegade that I will send to Hoyt to get taken out to .58 or larger

[greywuuf]

My daughter started shooting my traditions "hawken" 50 when she was 12 or 13 .. I believe she was shooting 45-50 grains of Trip7 .. could handle 75 easily enough. But at the range just enjoyed the others more....if your son is "into" shooting I don't think making it shoot soft is going to be an issue at all.

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[Trapaddict]

While 777 is noncorrosive the caps are not so don't let it sit overnight after use without wiping down the nipple and area around it including the hammer, then apply oil. The barrel can wait a while.

Triple 777 is DEFINITELY corrosive, and no, percussion caps manufactured in the United States after 1975 are most DEFINITELY NOT corrosive. 777 is far less corrosive than Pyrodex and black powder but it will rot your barrel and lock work just the same. Enough "non corrosive" 777 gas got around the 209 shotgun primers in my breech plug in my CVA Optima Pro and into into the firing pin and spring area. I did not know I needed to take that apart when I cleaned it the first season I hunted with it. The next year, the firing pin and spring were so corroded up the pin did not move freely in the breech face. Took it all apart and cleaned them up and fine ever since. There has not been corrosive priming compounds used in small arms primers in the USA since the Korean War. As of this morning, the only 100% non corrosive black powder substitute available is Blackhorn 209.

Jeff

[wgr]

How far are you from Hobbs NM.? Y can get real black there. a dealer there has it (coonies goex)

[DirtyJack]

I have both .45 hawkins PC and FL plus the .45 Patriot. I use shokeys gold exclusively. Easy to clean and fun to shoot.

[TCLouis]

Corrosive caps.

Heck, what about the propellant?