12 ga. vs 20 ga.

[roysha]

I don't know if this is the proper forum, so if not, please move to where it should be.

With all things being equal for both gauges, shot size, choke, velocity, etc,. are the 20 gauge 7/8 ounce, 1 ounce and 1 1/8 ounce loads equal in performance to a 12 gauge? I am referring strictly to the performance of the ammunition and totally disregarding the gun, with respect to handling, recoil and so forth.

[mcdaniel.mac]

Without discussing recoil (20ga guns tend to be lighter) and handling, how your shot stacks will change with constricting the bore/shell diameter.

[rking22]

Correct, the 12 will pattern more evenly than the 20 in general. With the 7/8 load the 20 is great, I much prefer the 12 for 1 1/8 and up. Now for 1 oz, ill take a 16 , but the 20 can come close.
Also you can drive the larger payloads faster in the 12 bore.

[GhostHawk]

Some might say the 12 will carry a little farther.

I've shot lots of stuff with both, from Canadian Honkers down to Hungarian Partridge.

The 20 will do the job, and it will do it with a little less lead, and powder. Not a big deal for a box or 2 but a lifetime of reloading will show gains.

20's tend to be a bit lighter, but they also tend to shoulder faster and swing quicker.
Shooting trap with the 12 with a 30" barrel I could let them sail out to the 50 yard line and break them clean 3-6 feet above the grass. 20 I could not let go so long and break them consistently. But, it was quicker on target too, so I did not have to.

Personally for tight quarters, lots of trees, brush, or a long day of walking I'll take the 20 every time. For a day spent in the duck boat I prefered the extra range and weight of the 12.

My 20 was good with slugs also for a smoothbore.

Comes down to what your doing with it and preference. Either will do the job. For some things like steel shot and buckshot there are more choices available for the 12 than the 20.

[Hogtamer]

Things are never equal because 7/8 shot out of a 20 is coming out of a smaller hole so the shot column is strung out a litlle more. If you move it a little faster you won't know the difference wingshooting though. Find out what your guns like best. Had the best dove season in a while shooting a Rem 1100 20 ga with a fast 7/8 #9 load out of IC choke.

[Moonie]

I've always read that all things being equal the 12 will pattern better due to the shorter shot column for the same shot charge. Either will get the job done in the proper hands.

[megasupermagnum]

Shot stringing is a moot point between the gauges. There have been a few good tests through the years, involving names like Oberfell & Thompson, Bob Brister (guy who shot at a moving trailer), and E. D. Lowry. At 40 yards shot stringing has negligible effect, the differences between gauges is almost nil. The pattern could be a factor, but I find it to not be a big deal on smaller shot sizes, say #4 and smaller.

[fecmech]

The 12ga will always pattern better at extended ranges than the 20 due to the fact that more shot is distorted at launch. The shot column is taller and more pressure on the bottom pellets. The more deformed pellets leave the central pattern quicker than round ones do hence thinner central pattern at extended range. You will not see a 20 ga. shotgun on the line at any registered trap shoot. From a practical standpoint inside 30-35 yds you will notice little difference between the gauges but for extended ranges or if money is on the line 12 ga wins.

[centershot]

Way back when (1970), I chose a 12 ga. as my first shotgun. It, and its 12 ga. predecessors have all served me well, hunting everything from waterfowl to upland game to deer and black bear. BUT, if I were starting over today, I'd choose a 20 and never look back! At hunting ranges a 20 is equally effective as a 12, and with today's ammunition, a 20 bows to a 12 only in long passing shots at geese and ducks and in the use of buckshot. I would trade that for the lighter, quicker handling gun. No, I don't shoot trap - but I do shoot skeet!

[vzerone]

I think the best gauge was ruined 100% by the gunrag writers and that is the 16 gauge. For general purpose small game, that is rabbits, squirrels, pheasant, the 12 in my opinion is too big. The 20 fits good there. The 16 would be perfect. Now for geese and duck I feel the 12 and 10 are better.

[Ginsing]

I have seen 20 gauge used at the trap line. And in fact when I was shooting in junior class I competed against a few kids shooting 20 gauge. Some did just fine. One fellow I shot against would use a 12 gauge only for handicap. He would use 20 gauge in doubles and bunker trap so he was able to recover for his second shot. Now I'm not saying it's ideal gauge for long shots, but when you are on target it doesn't take much to break a clay.
I shot against one of those kids years latter when we were in adult classes and he was very good. All those years shooting with a 20 gauge honed his skills. Breaking clays with a 12 gauge seemed effortless for him

[vzerone]

I have seen 20 gauge used at the trap line. And in fact when I was shooting in junior class I competed against a few kids shooting 20 gauge. Some did just fine. One fellow I shot against would use a 12 gauge only for handicap. He would use 20 gauge in doubles and bunker trap so he was able to recover for his second shot. Now I'm not saying it's ideal gauge for long shots, but when you are on target it doesn't take much to break a clay.
I shot against one of those kids years latter when we were in adult classes and he was very good. All those years shooting with a 20 gauge honed his skills. Breaking clays with a 12 gauge seemed effortless for him

The one I can't warm up to is the 28 ga and it has a huge following.

[GooseGestapo]

When it comes to sabot slugs, with the newer loads, the 20ga holds a noticeable advantage. Higher sectional density and better ballistic coefficients even though they give up a little weight.

I recently aquired a Savage M220 in order to better hunt some Shotgun only areas. I'm loading the Lyman "pellet" slug. At 75yds, it exceeds accuracy of all but better factory slugs. My partner shot a 150lb buck through the shoulders at 65yds with one. Bang flop. Can't beat that.

Working on minor details of load to tweak accuracy. Also working with a Lee .575" RB. IT SHOWS PROMISE from the 20" twist. The Lyman sabot is showing key-holes at 100yds. Not sure what is going on.

[Eutectic]

I think the best gauge was ruined 100% by the gunrag writers and that is the 16 gauge.

The 16 would be perfect.

I'm in whole-hearted agreement with the 16! It has indeed taken a bad wrap from the keyboard mostly from "guessers" not shooters!! I'm old enough to remember when the 16 was more popular than the 20. In my eyes it still is.

Eutectic

[vzerone]

I'm in whole-hearted agreement with the 16! It has indeed taken a bad wrap from the keyboard mostly from "guessers" not shooters!! I'm old enough to remember when the 16 was more popular than the 20. In my eyes it still is.

Eutectic

How about the Sweet Sixteen Browning Auto???? Boy that was sweet. Yup 16 was the gauge.

[centershot]

The one I can't warm up to is the 28 ga and it has a huge following.

I don't get it either!

[trapper9260]

I was brought up with the 12 and some of the 410 .Years later I got the 20 and it took some getting use to. But use it mainly now.but will take out the 12 when I feel like to just like I take the 10 ga out.

[toallmy]

I like and use them all in different situations . I have never owned a 28 but would pick one up in a heart beat if they didn't seem to always be so high , the 12 is just so useful you can go down to 3/4 oz - and up as far as you are comfortable . Although I love a good 20 and a 16 but it will reach its limits before a 12 , but for a 7/8 -1.25 shooter a 20 or 16 gage will work quite well . I'd say none should be over looked .

[RMc]

Apples to apples with the handload/reload and one and one eighth of shot : With high antimony shot, (> 4%), plastic shotcups and for the smaller gauge a slower powder, there is little discernable difference in the field performance of the 12 and 20 gauge with small lead shot. For the handloader the biggest cost difference comes with the higher cost of slow burning shotshell powders.

On the other hand, with factory ammo the 20 gauge will always cost more - either in a lesser shot charge or in purchasing premium ammo to equal the shot charge of 12 gauge clay and field loads.

The story with large shot, buckshot and lighter than lead non-toxic shot is, of course, a different story. And the differences are even greater and more diverse in the case of 73 and 615 caliber rifles.

[Petrol & Powder]

Lot's of good input.

I'm not convinced the 16ga was killed off by gun writers as much as it was killed off by the consumers. The 16 did a lot of things really well but it also split the difference between the 12 & 20 in terms of the gun itself. The 16ga guns were generally closer in overall size/weight to the 12 gauge models and most buyers would just opt for the 12. (I would submit that decision wasn't heavily influenced by gun writers). As the market share dropped and the cost of factory loaded shells went up, the 16 became an almost exclusively hand loaded shell. At that point the 16 was all but dead.
I've shot the 16ga and there's no doubt that it can be a wonderful gun but it just didn't carve out a big enough niche in the market to survive.

Getting back to the 12 v. 20 gauge thing - The obvious differences in the payload and shape of the shot column have all been stated and are all valid. I think the difference in the real world does end up being the gun and not the load. The 20ga guns give up a little in terms of payload and the behavior of that longer shot column (fecmech hit the nail on the head in post #8) BUT the guns themselves tend to be more fun to carry.

If I was only going to own a single shotgun, it would be a 12 gauge. If I could have 2 shotguns it would be a 12ga & a 20ga.

[vzerone]

Lot's of good input.

I'm not convinced the 16ga was killed off by gun writers as much as it was killed off by the consumers. The 16 did a lot of things really well but it also split the difference between the 12 & 20 in terms of the gun itself. The 16ga guns were generally closer in overall size/weight to the 12 gauge models and most buyers would just opt for the 12. (I would submit that decision wasn't heavily influenced by gun writers). As the market share dropped and the cost of factory loaded shells went up, the 16 became an almost exclusively hand loaded shell. At that point the 16 was all but dead.
I've shot the 16ga and there's no doubt that it can be a wonderful gun but it just didn't carve out a big enough niche in the market to survive.

Getting back to the 12 v. 20 gauge thing - The obvious differences in the payload and shape of the shot column have all been stated and are all valid. I think the difference in the real world does end up being the gun and not the load. The 20ga guns give up a little in terms of payload and the behavior of that longer shot column (fecmech hit the nail on the head in post #8) BUT the guns themselves tend to be more fun to carry.

If I was only going to own a single shotgun, it would be a 12 gauge. If I could have 2 shotguns it would be a 12ga & a 20ga.


I remember the gun writers voraciously down graded the 16 ga. About that time too they were pumping up the 20 ga. It didn't take much for a new shotgunner reading such magazines to think hmmmmm I better not buy a 16 ga. Sorry I disagree with you. They are still doing similar things today like how the 6.5 Creedmoor is the best thing to come along since sliced bread, or some other cartridge. I was amazed how the 300 ACC caught on like fire. Sorry about drifting from the topic.

[longbow]

What I have to wonder is why back in BP days there were so many different gauges of shotgun that seemed common and also different chamberings in those gauges.

Not sure about others but both 10 and 12 gauge were and are offered in different chamber lengths and certainly 12 gauge was offered with chamberings for short hulls. I am certainly no expert here so correct me if I am wrong but my understanding is that there were lightweight guns made up for short hulls in 12 gauge. That would make the 12 gauge lighter for those that want a lighter gun.

I guess I lean towards 12 gauge because of versatility with ability to handle 00 buckshot, a wide range of birdshot loads from 3/4 oz. to 2 1/4 oz. and a wide range of slugs for both smoothbore and rifled guns. There isn't a lot the 12 ga. can't do, venturing into both 10 ga. and .410 payload ranges.

I've owned only one 20 gauge gun but decided I liked the 12 gauge more.

I can't comment on how 12 ga. 2 1/2" loads would pattern on clays but i'd have to think that guns designed around the shorter hulls would be similar in weight to 20 ga. guns. Appropriate chokes should take care of patterns.

So, I prefer the 12 ga. bore size for versatility in payloads and wonder why the shorter hull loads are not more common. I realize that you can't shoot 3 1/2" hulls in a 2 1/2" chambered gun but you can shoot 2 1/2" hulls in a 3 1/2" chambered gun. The common bore size, even if in different guns, is appealing to me.

Different strokes.

Longbow

[Petrol & Powder]

I remember the gun writers voraciously down graded the 16 ga. About that time too they were pumping up the 20 ga. It didn't take much for a new shotgunner reading such magazines to think hmmmmm I better not buy a 16 ga. Sorry I disagree with you. They are still doing similar things today like how the 6.5 Creedmoor is the best thing to come along since sliced bread, or some other cartridge. I was amazed how the 300 ACC caught on like fire. Sorry about drifting from the topic.

I watched the same thing but in the end, it's still the consumer's choice. The 16 just wasn't different enough to set it apart from either the 12 or the 20.
Are people Lemmings, easily manipulated by a select few? Of course they are. We see evidence of that all of the time. But in the end, it was still the consumers that that killed off the 16. How much influence did a few gun writers exercise over that process ?? Well that's debatable and impossible to quantify.

Some part of that process involves gun writers getting ahead of the trends. They see the 16 gauge dying off and write about it, therefore making themselves appear to be prophets and soothsayers. Did the gun writer "predict" the trend OR did the gun writers simply "react" to the trend and make themselves appear knowledgeable in the process? Hard to say.
Our opinions differ but I respect yours.

[RMc]

Longbow,

In the late 19th century the closest to a standard 12 bore shotshell was a 2.5" roll crimped shell with a maximum of 1 & 1/8 ounce of shot and a maximum of 3.25 drams of black powder. This carried over into early smokeless cartridges as well. Winchester first marketed loaded 12 gauge smokeless shotshells in 1900. In the 1920s star or pie crimps were first considered as a way of speeding automated production. To maintain the same internal space for the then common bulk smokeless powders of the time required a slightly longer hull, (1/4 inch), to allow for the additional hull length taken up with star crimps. The need for length commonality was needed for repeating shotgun designs as well.

This is not an exact history but is a simplified overview of how 2.75" hulls and chambering came to be the fold crimp standard.

[RMc]

Lot's of good input.

I'm not convinced the 16ga was killed off by gun writers as much as it was killed off by the consumers. The 16 did a lot of things really well but it also split the difference between the 12 & 20 in terms of the gun itself. The 16ga guns were generally closer in overall size/weight to the 12 gauge models and most buyers would just opt for the 12. (I would submit that decision wasn't heavily influenced by gun writers). As the market share dropped and the cost of factory loaded shells went up, the 16 became an almost exclusively hand loaded shell. At that point the 16 was all but dead.
I've shot the 16ga and there's no doubt that it can be a wonderful gun but it just didn't carve out a big enough niche in the market to survive.



The introduction the three inch 20 gauge Winchester Super X in 1954 and the commercial fanfare that accompanied it began the downward spiral of the 16 gauge in the American market.

[vzerone]

The introduction the three inch 20 gauge Winchester Super X in 1954 and the comercial fanfare that accompanied it began the downward spiral of the 16 gauge in the American market.

The manufacturers could have easily come out with 3 inch 16 gauge too. Maybe that would have hurt the 12 ga. You ever shoot a 3 inch 20 in a light weight overunder Perazzi shotgun? Hurts!!

[RMc]

A three inch 16 gauge? Perhaps, however virtually all popular 16 gauge shotguns in the middle decades of the 20th century, were built on 12 gauge frames. And the real upswing in 20 gauge popularity did not hit until the introduction of small frame repeaters for the gauge in the 1970s and forward.

[longbow]

RMc:

True enough, I likely should have known that but I have also read that there were short hulls loaded in England and Europe that were used in lightweight shotguns for ladies and youth. Possibly shorter than 2 1/2". That implies they were loaded to lower pressure if true... and I'm not sure it is.

Again, maybe I should know this but if the 2 3/4" chamber was lengthened to allow use of the star crimp then does that automatically mean that any modern load data for 2 3/4" hulls can be used if wad column and hull are shortened to allow use in a 2 1/2" chamber?

I just took a quick look on the internet for info but came up short (hah! no pun intended) on info for proof pressures and short chamber lengths. Now I am curious because I am sure I read about the short chamber lengths and lightweight guns.

I see H&H markets 2 1/4" star crimped shells which I'd have to think are for 2 1/2" chambers but I didn't see any info on pressures.

Then there are the mini Aguilla shotshells which say they can be fired in any SAAMI spec shotgun but are low recoil implying lighter payload and powder charge. Of course pressure is not necessarily related directly to hull length.

More questions than answers I guess... but I still like 12 ga. better.

Longbow

[vzerone]

A three inch 16 gauge? Perhaps, however virtually all popular 16 gauge shotguns in the middle decades of the 20th century, were built on 12 gauge frames. And the real upswing in 20 gauge popularity did not hit until the introduction of small frame repeaters for the gauge in the 1970s and forward.

Easy way out for the manufacturers to use one frame size. Kind of like what Ruger did with their single action and that sort of come back and bit them in hind end. If it didn't they wouldn't have come out with the classics on the smaller frames. It was ridiculous to have a Ruger Blackhawk 357 that was like a ship anchor because it was on the large frame size.

I'll bet you if they build 16 ga size shotguns and had the gunwriter brag it up and write the living daylights out of it that it would fly!

[RMc]

RMc:

True enough, I likely should have known that but I have also read that there were short hulls loaded in England and Europe that were used in lightweight shotguns for ladies and youth. Possibly shorter than 2 1/2". That implies they were loaded to lower pressure if true... and I'm not sure it is.

Again, maybe I should know this but if the 2 3/4" chamber was lengthened to allow use of the star crimp then does that automatically mean that any modern load data for 2 3/4" hulls can be used if wad column and hull are shortened to allow use in a 2 1/2" chamber?

I just took a quick look on the internet for info but came up short (hah! no pun intended) on info for proof pressures and short chamber lengths. Now I am curious because I am sure I read about the short chamber lengths and lightweight guns.

I see H&H markets 2 1/4" star crimped shells which I'd have to think are for 2 1/2" chambers but I didn't see any info on pressures.

Then there are the mini Aguilla shotshells which say they can be fired in any SAAMI spec shotgun but are low recoil implying lighter payload and powder charge. Of course pressure is not necessarily related directly to hull length.

More questions than answers I guess... but I still like 12 ga. better.

Longbow

I am not conversant about the ultra-light 2 inch chambered English 12 bore, however, a quick search turned up this discussion that may shed some light.

https://bbs.shootingsportsman.com/showthread.php?4346-The-2-quot-12-gauge-Appropriate-service-pressure

--------------------------------------------------------

The underlined text from your post underscores how discussing shotshells can easily lead to confusion. For example, many shotshell handloaders seem to have a hard time wrapping their minds around the concept of loaded length being the determinant for the internal load capacity of a shotshell. Let that sink in for a second.

If you recall the discussion in the High Performance Buckshot Revisited
thread, there was some question of trying to crush fit a the 2.75" Roll Crimped buckshot load into a 2.75" Fold Crimped hull of the same type. That is not the way to go - because the loaded internal volume or capacity of the fold crimped 2.75" round is less. Slimply put a loaded fold crimp shell is shorter than a loaded roll crimp shell; when both have the same empty case length. To look at it another way a 2.75" hull when Roll Crimped has the same loaded length as a loaded three inch hull that is Fold Crimped. Both have the same available internal load space and both have the same loaded length and both will hold the same wad column.


http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?224028-High-performance-buckshot-revisited

[GhostHawk]

I have 3 Rem 870 pump guns, all the good Wingmasters with nice fit, finish, awesome wood.

The oldest is my grandmothers brothers gun, his name was Orrin, he was from Louisianna like Grandma. It is a plain jane version, no rib, blueing half worn off, and it is a 16. Slick, smooth, accurate all you every want a shotgun to be. But by the time I got it, 16 ga ammo was hard to find and more expensive.

I bought the 20 as I was sick and tired of screwing around with .410's. I had it cut to fit me, at the time I was a short little guy. Like about 4 foot 3" and out of high school. Me and that 20, we were the big mean boys in the woods.

The 12 is the special trap version I bought used from a first cousin, just about a brother.
Worked great for trap, waterfowl.

My favorite though of them all was the 20.

I was on my way out to the farm one day after dinner. It was october, spotted a covey of Hungarian Partridge on the edge of our field. Parked the car, grabbed the 20, loaded, crossed the ditch. They got up all around me. Must have been 40 of em. I shot it empty, picked em all up and drove up to the yard. Dad was just coming out of the shed, he'd been welding. He is looking at the clear blue sky you can see in all directions at least 50 miles. And he is shaking his head.

What's up dad?

"I swear I heard one long roll of thunder, but there is no clouds"

That was not thunder, that was me. Jumped the covey of huns. Fired 5 times pretty quick.

"Your full of **** boy, you can't work that pump that fast"

Come, and I went and opened the trunk on my little plymouth duster, raised the lid.

Inside are 5 yellow empty's and 7 dead Hungarian partridge.

"How'd you shoot 7 birds with 5 shots"

Luck. Call it that anyway. Got 3 with the first shot, they was bunched up some. Rest were all singles.

"If I hadn't heard it, and seen it I wouldn't have believed it."

I have to tell ya kid, I heard your car stop, I was having a smoke. So I stuck my head out.
I saw ya do it. Some dang nice shootin there bill.

And you did the whole roll of thunder and cloud thing??? In case you missed em, I could not tell how many you dropped.

Yeah I like the 20. We have some history.

[longbow]

RMc:

Thanks for posting that link... interesting. I didn't turn that one up in my search. I'll have to try harder! Now I am curious so will do some more digging. There has to be some info out there on the short shells (old short shells).

Longbow

[rking22]

The Winchester M12 was a 16 GA sized gun, actually think it shared with the 20.My 1913 vintage 16 is actually lighter than my 50s 20 ga. The M12 wasnt chambered for the long(2 3/4 inch) shell until 1936. My late 50s 870 in 16 uses the 12 GA frame but handles much better than the 12 GA , for upland. My 16 GA M31 is a favorite, fixed mod and works for most everything I care to hunt these days. Now the newish (1990s)REM 16ga 870 is still on the big frame with a lot more bbl weight, it's a pig, get the 12ga instead!
What really killed the 16ga was not being one of the 4 gages used in skeet. The target loadings really reduce the price of ammo due to volume. Target shooters shoot many times the ammo of hunters. The 3 inch 20 was a contributor to the "newest is bestest" sputtering of the gun press as well. I shoot them all, including the 28 and 410, the ALL have their place. At one point I owned more 410 shotguns than 12 GA, same with 28ga. Get a scaled frame 28ga gun and you have the killing capacity of a 20 and the weight of a 410, or close enough. Get a 28 on a 20ga frame, and you should have gotten the 20 :)

[dverna]

Those who do not understand why the 28 ga has a good following have never hunted with one.

It about the ideal gun for hunting birds over dogs. Mine weighs about 5 lbs and is a joy to carry and shoot. For hunting, I load it with 7/8 or 1 oz loads. It does not have the range of a 12 because patterns get thin at longer ranges due to the lighter payload. I limit my shots to 40 yards.

BTW, I have a friend who is in the Michigan Trapshooting Hall of Fame and used a 410 for ducks hunting back in the day. He felt the 12 was “too easy”. But he was a hell of a shot and duck hunter/caller.

Back to the OP question. All else being equal the 12 is a better choice. It has a greater range of loads and can be loaded down to 3/4 oz if desired. But a gun that will not beat you up with Magnum shells will be “clunky” for woods hunting or hunting over dogs. I have more than one shotgun for that reason.

[BAGTIC]

Where the smaller gauges are at greatest disadvantage is when using steel shot. They don't have enough volume to hold an adequate number of pellets.

Shot 'stringing' is not the problem. Shot stringing actually helps most shooters hit the target as timing the lead with shot arrival is easier. The reason that shotgun chokes were invented was to encourage shot stringing. What hurts smaller gauges is increased length of shot columns which increases shot deformation due to increased setback. Pellet deformation increases shot spreading.

[Hogtamer]

You are right, high antimony shot alleviates that problem.

[rking22]

This is an advertising video but it has some great slow motion of targets interacting with the shot cloud/ string. Especially towards the end. Note the almost visually stopped clay as the shot passes thru. A 45mph crossing clay will only travel 6.4 inches while a 10 ft shot string passes thru it. A straightaway or direct income will see the same basic pattern as a fixed pattern board. More choke mainly tightens the pattern for more effective range and does stretch the shot string more than an open choke. EDIT , prior statement on tighter chokes is incorrect , should read looser, strange but documented by 2 studies. Due to that info, the time lag between pellets seen on the video is showing a long string. Note the wad passing thru the break on the last shot, i have only seen that on very close shots. Interesting, perhaps it has to do with pellets "drafting" llike Nascars????END EDIT .Pretty cool video, fairly short and easy on the eyes as well.
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://m.youtube.com/watch%3Fv%3Db8LPRHEhAuw&ved=0ahUKEwjc08vPl4bYAhUX24MKHXIZCLwQwqsBCEswDA&usg=AOvVaw2EfKeHinggUT477BmT74e0

[megasupermagnum]

I'm almost positive I have read that a full choke has a shorter shot string than a cylinder choke.

[William Yanda]

I'm almost positive I have read that a full choke has a shorter shot string than a cylinder choke.

How does one explain that?

[Cap'n Morgan]

I'm almost positive I have read that a full choke has a shorter shot string than a cylinder choke.

I read the same thing. Probably in Bob Brister's book, Shotgunning: The art and science. It goes against my intuition, but Bob did the test to prove it, shooting at a moving target (his wife driving their car with a long trailer holding the target!) If I remember correctly, shot stringing wasn't much of a problem at ranges under 40 yards.

[PapaG]

Tongue-in-cheek comment here: I've heard, or read, where R+$@/y W@?@?man can run 200 straight with an imp cylinder 20 gauge. Can anyone verify? Maybe my 95% average with a full choke 12 gauge 870 TB over thirty years could have been 99. Stan

[rking22]

Apparently I am misremembering, been 40years since I read Bristers book.Thanks to the guys who pointed this out, made me go check! I personally don't worry about the stringing as it is a very minor effect compared to properly pointing the shotgun and use of the eyes. When you just chip the nose of the target, the tail of the shot string got it for you, low percentage shot plan as the tail is very loose. Here is more info and another reference from a study done in England. Lots of other good info here, author is a bunker shooter, knows his business.
https://shotgunreport.com/2014/04/29/shot-string-2/

[Blood Trail]

When it comes to sabot slugs, with the newer loads, the 20ga holds a noticeable advantage. Higher sectional density and better ballistic coefficients even though they give up a little weight.

I recently aquired a Savage M220 in order to better hunt some Shotgun only areas. I'm loading the Lyman "pellet" slug. At 75yds, it exceeds accuracy of all but better factory slugs. My partner shot a 150lb buck through the shoulders at 65yds with one. Bang flop. Can't beat that.

Working on minor details of load to tweak accuracy. Also working with a Lee .575" RB. IT SHOWS PROMISE from the 20" twist. The Lyman sabot is showing key-holes at 100yds. Not sure what is going on.

What’s your pellet load?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Hogtamer]

I can attest to 5 hogs 1 deer taken with the 220 and uncle dinos lead slugs with plastic basewad attached. 2 of the hogs were with one shot. Very accurate at 100 yds, running about 1700 fps, not bad at 150.

[GEOMETRIC]

In regard to 12 vs 20, back when I was a pup, Dad did what was traditional wisdom at the time & bought me a .410. It was a SXS as all my shotguns are DT, SXS. I am inflicted with the curse of being a South Paw & that is what Pop shot until Mon gave him an A5 Browning. I couldn't stand in a barn & shoot it out the door but Pop could shoot anything. Back then left hand guns were few & far between. I found myself a military brat in Taiwan. I got to hunt birds there & shot numerous times with the .410 at the numerous species of doves they have over there. The only way I could kill a dove was to shoot is out of a clump of bamboo. Then Pop decided I was big enough to shoot "Little Betsy" his light weight L.C.Smith bird gun. I remember thinking," Wow, I can actually hit something with this". I still have that gun, it is still tight as a tick & I still shoot it. I later acquired a 12 ga. but my most prized possession to this day is a 20 ga. L.C. Smith Pop bought me when I was 16 for the extravagant sum of $125. I have a safe full of shotguns ranging from 20 ga. to 3.5" 10 ga. but I have killed more birds, ducks & small game with that little gun than all the rest combined.
Back then the standard .410, 3" load was 7/8 oz.. The 20 ga. does a much more efficient job of patterning that same load. If bore size didn't matter, you would see people killing geese at 60 yds. with .410s. Load efficiency is to a degree, shot specific. If you don't think bore size makes a difference, go look at the non toxic reloading data for the various gauges & tell me what you see. I have become a fan of the 10 ga. when hunting in extreme conditions.

[Geezer in NH]

Manufacture's wanted to make just 2 frame sizes is why IMHO. Two size barrels also.

The pubic as usual sucked into the advertising hype same as todays shooters.