load work up methods for the heavy 45-70 boolits

[Road_Clam]

So i'm entering a new aspect of precision handloading with BPCR. I recently purchased a Pedersoli 1874 Sharps and I would like some tips and feedback as to the proper approach to working up BPCR loads. I have a very solid knowledge base for loading precision smokeless jacketed, but BPCR hard cast is new to me. I've got 100 of the .459 535 gr Postel bullets on order, and I ordered some .06" poly wads. I was wondering if you could map out the prioritized list of testing, i.e step 1 choose bullet, then test charge weights (and what charge weight step is suitable), then experiment with seating depth, and so on. The heavy 45-70 match bullets are expensive, so i'm hoping to not waste time and $$$ from "running around in circles" so to speak. Thanks in advance !

[country gent]

More information is needed here as to powder type Ie true Black powder, substitute powders, or smokeless duplication loads? Ill assume its the true Black powder so that still leaves several choices. Swiss, Olde Ensforde, and Goex ( the main 3).
Start with your batch or lot of cases preferably all from the same maker and lot number, on these big cases there can be a big vareince in volumne between makers and sometimes lot numbers. Trimm these to a uniform length and square deburr and chamfer. I prefer the "VLD" angled chamfering tools for this. Deburr flash holes inside. You might uniform the primer pockets also. On new brass ( starline has a note in it) anneal. Prime cases with a rifle primer of choice. Rem LR seem to do good with BP.
Select a powder charge that fills the case to the base of the bullet with your wad. this is starting load no compression. Test fire for accuracy and work up in 2 grn increments adding powder and compression. Find the best accuracy and then test at the mid point between the 2 charges ( if 64 and 66 are the 2 best test at 65.5 to see if its slightly better). Wads can be a lot of things Napa rubber fiber gasket material, cork, milk cartoon ( waxed card board), LDPE, felt and paper. Select an overall length that's .010 shy of the rifling to start with. This loads easily and is a good starting point. Use light neck tension hand seating the bullets onto the wad is perferred by a lot of shooters.
The use of a chronograph here makes load selection easier as it gives velocities and Standard deviation and extreme spreads of velocities. As compression goes up SD and ES goes down due to more efficient combustion. Most load for 1150 fps-1250 fps with the heavies. Watch these numbers and see what they give you. BP loads done right can have single digit SD. Several of my loads are 2.7 -3.5 SD range. On my good loads ES can be 12 fps high to low.
As to bullets few use hard cast bullets in these loads most are 20-1 or there abouts. Some do add some antimony but not a lot. Lube needs to be BP comapatable, SPG is good as is the homemade versions of emmerts. On grease grooves bullets fill the grooves and start there. Look for a lube star at the muzzle.
My version of emmerts improved
50% beeswax
40% unsalted Crisco shortening
5% canola oil
5% lanolin (Anahydrous)
2-4 drops of murphies oil soap
In a double boiler melt all the ingrediants together and blend well. let cool
Buffalo Arms and Track of the wolf have bullets cast in the softer alloies and lubed with spg also.
A couple good books on these loading is the SPG Loading manual By Steve Garby and Mike Venturinio ( Sorry on the spellings) And Loading and Shooting the Paper Patched Bullet A Beginners Guide, By Randolph S Wright. Both are very good and very informatitve.

[Lead pot]

CG has it pretty well outlined what a variety of other loaders do.

But the first thing I would do is take one of those bullets (not a loaded round) and insert it in the chamber and use a short dowel till it makes firm contact with the throat. use a 3/8X36" dowel and lower it from the muzzle till it makes contact with the bullet and take a pencil and mark a ring on the rod at the muzzle.
Next push the bullet out with the dowel and remove it from the chamber and close the breach and lower the dowel to the breach block face and put a second ring on the dowel at the muzzle.
This gives you the over all seating depth length of the finished loaded round. It's a good place to start.
Take a bullet you did the measuring with and seat it in a empty case as deep as the spread of the two rings you marked on the dowel and measure how much of the bullet is in the case.
This is where the compression die will be adjusted to compressing the powder with the wad/s over the powder.

Choose a soft flame primer like the CCI-200 LRP is about as soft as the LRP come.
Next load what I call a ladder load. Load two or three rounds with no compression/wads against the bullet base.
I increase the powder load by one grain every three rounds. usually 21 rounds fired doing this will give you a good idea to where to tweak the load a little better.

Now all this is using real black powder not a sub. Using Swiss or Ole Eynsford powder it's not much of need to compress it past .175" to see what your accuracy load will be close to be.

Use neck tension not roll crimps to hold the bullet. I like to size my cases with a taper crimp or neck sizing dies for the neck tension before I load the round with powder and wads...Kurt

[country gent]

Lead Pot, I use a Meacham bushing die for 45-90, 45-70, and 40-65. My 38-55 is a home made bushing die. ( RCBS machined for the bushing and opn top to lock it in). These are "open topped" since I decap by hand off the press. I size after the bullet has been hand seated onto the powder wad stack with just enough neck tension that the bullet can still be turned but dosnt fall out. I have done this with standard sizing dies but they need to be raised around .400 above full length setting. Another reason for the bushing dies is they allow loading everything from grease grooved bullets to bore riding PP. I prefer this as a lot of dies over size and then the expander opens the case back up. Working the brass more than is needed.

[Lead pot]

CG I only full length size one time with new cases and from then on I use a taper crimp die only set for the bullet. Some of the large factory chambers a sizing die does not reduce the case mouth enough to hold a PP bullet even some GG. I have a couple Meacham dies but I changed the bushings and made a longer taper then what they come with because, especially my .50-90 makes a ring line a rounded Weatherby case shoulder and some times if the case slips back from the case holder that shoulder is eccentric.

[Road_Clam]

So the plan is to aquire some Swiss 1-1/2FG, or Old Enysford 1-1/2FG. Currently can't find the Swiss locally. I also have a home made bullet seating depth rod with machined collars that I use to caculate bullet set back off the lands. I have plenty of Goex FFG so this will get me started.

[Lead pot]

Yup, your on your way to have a good time with the rifle

[rfd]

before getting into PPB's i used a hornady OAL gauge along with a .45-70 LNL brass to instantly figure out the max OAL for a cartridge and a particular bullet (be it cast or whatever). if anything, take this as a plug for thinking about paper patching. once ya patch, ya won't look back.

[country gent]

Buffalo Arms has Swiss, Olde Ensforde and goex in stock in the various granulations. Also you might order a compression stem for your die set. I have found Goex likes more compression than the other 2. Your in for a lot of fun here.

[Lead pot]

before getting into PPB's i used a hornady OAL gauge along with a .45-70 LNL brass to instantly figure out the max OAL for a cartridge and a particular bullet (be it cast or whatever). if anything, take this as a plug for thinking about paper patching. once ya patch, ya won't look back.


:2_high5: That solves a lot of issues :2_high5: No leading in the bore. Bullets are in the bore aligned straight. No excess expanding in the chamber and swaged back down to bore/groove diameter leaving a lead ring behind that smears lead down the bore. Hey just have fun and get the lead out :)

[Hiwall55]

In your statement BPCR hard cast, if you do use HARD CAST you will be in trouble right away. Stick with 20-1, which is soft cast.

[Road_Clam]

Buffalo Arms has Swiss, Olde Ensforde and goex in stock in the various granulations. Also you might order a compression stem for your die set. I have found Goex likes more compression than the other 2. Your in for a lot of fun here.

The Maine Powder House is within driving distance from me, so waiting for them to get Swiss 1.5 back in stock to save shipping and hazmat fees. I do CNC machining by trade, and I fabricated a 7/8-14 threaded compression plug to fit 45-70 casings. I dabbled is some basic BPCR with my 1884 TD a few years ago but never dove into it seriously. Now with my new Sharp's , i'm wanting to take it to the next level.




In your statement BPCR hard cast, if you do use HARD CAST you will be in trouble right away. Stick with 20-1, which is soft cast.

Bad choice of words. Been doing my research, and also bought the Lyman cast handbook, and BP manual, and yes I understand to keep the bullets on the softer side of the scale. Also ordered the Cabin Tree LLC hardness tester to track my recipes while i'm starting out.

[sharpsguy]

I can see right now that you are going to have a lot of fun-- chasing your tail.

[MT Chambers]

Once you have a bullet and powder, all you can play with is case neck tension and powder compression...powder charge should be right up to the base of the bullet.

[Chill Wills]

The heavy 45-70 match bullets are expensive, so i'm hoping to not waste time and $$$ from "running around in circles" so to speak. Thanks in advance !

If you are serious about wanting to make accurate ammo that might shoot close to the rifles ability, the first thing I would do is buy a mold and cast. Get the cost down low. I assume you cast bullets?
Here is why.
IF every bullet you shoot, because you are buying them, is so precious and valuable, you will not shoot enough to get to first base. Part of learning what makes these BPCR singleshots tick, is Time Behind the Butt! Enough time shooting equals lots of time loading. What comes with that is a feel for what you are doing. Like it of not, you will learn more by both doing and being mentored.
I can and have handed people detailed load recipes and the rifle they are for. ..... it just does not work.

This stuff is not hard, but you do need to put the time in.

Back to my first point. Get a good mold and cast them.

[rfd]

and make it GOOD mould, too. it's all about the bullet. they ain't cheap, but they are necessary.

[Gunlaker]

Getting into casting is very good advice. The key to accuracy in these rifles in my opinion is to start with a bullet that is known to work well with that particular rifles chamber. I don't shoot Pedersoli rifles so can't comment, other than I'be heard a number of people say that they tend to like 0.460" diameter bullets. The other thing is to use an alloy appropriate to the style of bullet.

If you have a good fitting bullet, and a reasonable alloy the rifle will shoot pretty well right away. If it doesn't shoot pretty well right away, then tuning powder charges won't likely get you there. I generally see bigger changes by changing primer types than powder weight changes by the way.

The other big thing is that these rifles are difficult to shoot consistently well unless you put a lot of time into shooting them. There is more to be gained by shooting and analyzing/perfecting your technique than there ever will be from tuning powder charges to the tenth of a grain. You need a pretty much perfect hold with perfect follow through in order to make these rifles perform. Due to the recoil and the slow barrel time it's very easy to make an excellent load shoot poorly :-). It took me quite a while to learn that lesson with these rifles.

Chris.

[country gent]

The one book I mentioned above Loading And Shooting The Paper Patched Bullet A Beginners Guide. By Randolph S Wright goes into shooting technique and the hows and whys in one chapter. These rifles are finicky about external pressures and forces on the sticks and bench.

[Road_Clam]

The one book I mentioned above Loading And Shooting The Paper Patched Bullet A Beginners Guide. By Randolph S Wright goes into shooting technique and the hows and whys in one chapter. These rifles are finicky about external pressures and forces on the sticks and bench.

I will definately look into this book. I already purchased Lymans BP handbook, and CB handbook. Both very informative. This was my best grouping yesterday at my maiden test shoot. I extremely happy at how consistent I shot with irons. I have extremely nearsighted eyes, and clearly fixing on the Sharps front sight blade was a real challenge. The rear leaf is a piece of poo, I see why precision shooters upgrade to Creedmoore peeps.


https://preview.ibb.co/eJJeV6/DSCF0431_1.jpg (https://ibb.co/giAF3R)

[kokomokid]

When it comes to books I would recommend Preparation of match ammo for black powder cartridge rifles by Robert Ballowe. It may be a little advanced for a beginner and he is quite anal about his loading.

[rfd]

The Paper Patched Bullet Way

imho - while there is a little bit of an initial learning curve, bore rider PPBs will have a much easier black powder cartridge build process, with no concern over the cartridge OAL (because there is none). i've totally abandoned greasers in favor of going the "PPB Way", as Brent has so aptly labeled it. most greaser barrel chambers will work fine for ppb's, and it will come down to the bullet diameter, and the wrapping paper thickness. while grooved bullets will surely work well, a slick bullet will work best for long distance accuracy. randy wright's PPB booklet is the best out there. it dwells mostly on using grease cookies (which are probably best for hunting), but he does talk about going straight to a single wad. using a single wad will turn a .45-70 into a virtual .45-90 because the ppb is seated in about .100" to .180" - yep, that shallow - and with a single wad yer looking at drop tubing over 80 grains of yer favorite 1-1/2f. for short distance shooting (200yds or less), i use a series of dry wads to take up powder space, and a good 20 grains less powder charge. do consider at least trying out the PPB Way.

[Road_Clam]

Thanks for the detailed info. I must admit I have done some research on PP'ing and I am most intrigued (as is any striving precision handloader) upon the potential accuracy gains, but as I am totally new i'm trying very hard to get up to speed without making a lot of mistakes. For now I'm just going to work greasers, but once i'm promoted to "amateur BPCR handloader" status PP methods will be a "will try" !



The Paper Patched Bullet Way

imho - while there is a little bit of an initial learning curve, bore rider PPBs will have a much easier black powder cartridge build process, with no concern over the cartridge OAL (because there is none). i've totally abandoned greasers in favor of going the "PPB Way", as Brent has so aptly labeled it. most greaser barrel chambers will work fine for ppb's, and it will come down to the bullet diameter, and the wrapping paper thickness. while grooved bullets will surely work well, a slick bullet will work best for long distance accuracy. randy wright's PPB booklet is the best out there. it dwells mostly on using grease cookies (which are probably best for hunting), but he does talk about going straight to a single wad. using a single wad will turn a .45-70 into a virtual .45-90 because the ppb is seated in about .100" to .180" - yep, that shallow - and with a single wad yer looking at drop tubing over 80 grains of yer favorite 1-1/2f. for short distance shooting (200yds or less), i use a series of dry wads to take up powder space, and a good 20 grains less powder charge. do consider at least trying out the PPB Way.

[Bent Ramrod]

Starting with grease groove boolits is prudent practice. Paper patching is only “easier” if you don’t already have a lubrisizer with the proper dies, but do have the proper diameter boolit, the appropriate thickness paper, and a means for cutting to size and patching. And have an MBA in black powder “fowling” management, in all weathers. You can luck out and get a proper load combination and management routine right away, or you can spend long years in the wilderness sorting out all the paper patch variables, even after reading all the literature on the subject. (It is instructive to note that all authors of “how-to” books on paper patching only guarantee hunting level accuracy if you follow their directions.) The loading and shooting of match-grade cartridges using grease groove boolits is at least down to a science, and the point you said you wanted to pursue at your stage of the game is to learn the nuances of precision BPCR loading and shooting. You can dabble in the Dark Arts later.

The first boolit that gave me success was the Ideal 457125 round nose, about 525 grains. As a first-tier “go-to” boolit, it’s reliable out to 600 yards, until the wind picks up. There are better designs, but this one is never a bad choice for the beginner, as the moulds and handles are inexpensive, and inexpensive practice is needed more than anything else at this stage.

The Ideal Postell design, 457132, also seems to work well. The mould I have is slightly misaligned, and I have no idea how that skinny nose goes straight down the barrel, but it shot very well at 600 yards, off the bench in practice. Never tried it in an actual shoot, though.

But the Paul Jones 450001 or 45-70 540 gr Creedmoor design is the one I shoot now when I shoot grease groove boolits. That design is a marvel; wind resistant and idiot-proof. (Don’t ask how I know this. :mrgreen:). Jones is retired, but Buffalo Arms and Steve Brooks make copies of this design. The moulds and handles are expensive, but so is everything any more. Be glad you’re not into Skeet shooting or own a boat.

I tried one of the Money boolits off the bench at 600 yards and it didn’t shoot as well as the Postell did. I suspect that my alloy was too soft and the nose was slumping. But here we get into designs that offer advantages in specialty applications only after all the parameters are tuned in. Probably not for the beginner, although the long range experts love this design.

But Chill is right. Cast your own, if you plan on getting into this on any regular level. They’ll eventually be cheaper than those from the XYZ Bullet Co and the QC will be better as well.

[hiram]

I have a Redding measure. I started with the minimum load to fill the case to the bullet's base. That was #50 on the micrometer setting. Load 1 case, then I turned the setting, from 50 to 51, loaded another case, 51 to 52, load 1 case, 52 to 53, load 1 case. I did this for 17 loads. My charges were from 56.7 to 72.7 gr. The powder measure setting is not the grains, its just a control for you to load 20 cases with the same increment of powder between each load. You have to throw 2 or 3 charges to settle the powder after you make each change, but that takes no time at all. So now you have twenty rounds of ammo, each with a slightly different charge. Make a list of the increment setting and corresponding charge weight.

We go to the range with 2 targets. One at 100 yds. (that's what is available to me) and 1 target on the bench with your equipment. You have a few extra rounds to get you on paper and now the fun begins. Once your on the paper, NO SIGHT ADJUSTMENTS. You fire a round, mark where is hits on the target on your bench with the load number, i.e., #1. Fire the second and mark it on the paper, #2. Fire them in order. Mark each on the target with its load #. After the 17 rounds, you will see some shots spread out and a cluster of others. Take the middle load for the cluster and that is your basic load-and you can fool around a little from there.

My load worked out to be 61.3 grains, but it is number 55 on the powder meter.
Don't confuse the meter setting with the powder weight.

[Road_Clam]

I have a Redding measure. I started with the minimum load to fill the case to the bullet's base. That was #50 on the micrometer setting. Load 1 case, then I turned the setting, from 50 to 51, loaded another case, 51 to 52, load 1 case, 52 to 53, load 1 case. I did this for 17 loads. My charges were from 56.7 to 72.7 gr. The powder measure setting is not the grains, its just a control for you to load 20 cases with the same increment of powder between each load. You have to throw 2 or 3 charges to settle the powder after you make each change, but that takes no time at all. So now you have twenty rounds of ammo, each with a slightly different charge. Make a list of the increment setting and corresponding charge weight.

We go to the range with 2 targets. One at 100 yds. (that's what is available to me) and 1 target on the bench with your equipment. You have a few extra rounds to get you on paper and now the fun begins. Once your on the paper, NO SIGHT ADJUSTMENTS. You fire a round, mark where is hits on the target on your bench with the load number, i.e., #1. Fire the second and mark it on the paper, #2. Fire them in order. Mark each on the target with its load #. After the 17 rounds, you will see some shots spread out and a cluster of others. Take the middle load for the cluster and that is your basic load-and you can fool around a little from there.

My load worked out to be 61.3 grains, but it is number 55 on the powder meter.
Don't confuse the meter setting with the powder weight.

OCW testing, i've done this with smokeless bottleneck. Very good info thanks !

[Road_Clam]

I slugged my bore last night and i'm getting .457 groove OD . So sounds like the concesus is to go with a .458 bullet ? I also ordered the Randy Wright PPB book. More and more research I do seems PP'ing is the path to real accuracy especially given the fact my plan is to shoot 600 yds.

[country gent]

Randolph S Wrights book is very good and gives a lot of good information on loading sighting bench or sticks technique and other aspects of outing these rifles thru their paces. PP bullets are accurate as are GG. A lot depends on how you want to shoot. Youll want to know the bore dia of your barrel also. This will allow you to figure the bullet dia so when wrapped its bore dia or just under. Another good idea is a chamber cast to see what the chamber is as to neck dia, throat dia, throat length and leade. My c sharps, cpa and BRC have no throat leade is right off the case mouth. ( about half or a little more of the front driving band shows when touching the rifling). My Brooks adjustable PP mould is a cup base money style. It cast in 20-1 at .442-.443 is very round and true when measured. When wrapped with 2 wraps of Seth Cole paper its .449-.450 and slightly snug in the bore. When loaded I have .180 in the case and the rest is in the bore. Very close to breech seated bullets in use. You may need a bushing die for these as the bullets smaller dia may not give the neck tension with standard dies.

[Lead pot]

A PP bullet is very capable of great accuracy. Yes it takes a little longer to cut the patches and wrap the bullet but when you get started patching you will learn how to do it efficiently. Cutting patches can be time consuming but I can cut over 400 in less then a hour the way I do it and patch the bullets sitting watching the news or a TV show.
The important thing with a good PP bullet is to get a proper mould that will cast a quality bullet at the proper diameter to match your supply of paper you have. Sizing a GG bullet that is cast at groove or larger diameter just is not a good thing to do by sizing it down 8 or 9 thousands like I read some doing are just chasing their tail like a dog wanting to get the flee that is driving him nuts. It makes no difference if that bullet is patched to groove or bore diameter.
Yesterday I took a rifle to the range that I have been working on the barrel and I put the scope on it to get on the paper at 200 yards to see if I have improved the accuracy and I took some loads I use for the other .44-100 Rem Straight that are two years old loaded with 93 grains of 2F OE powder and a bullet from a KAL PP elliptical mould at 507 grains and I had three rounds of 90 grains of 1.5 swiss in the box. The 4 shots at 4 O-Clock were shot at 200 yards using the 2F OE and a sight change at 12 O-Clock are the three rounds of 1.5 swiss. Both loads shoot well enough for a match but the 4 at 4 O-Clock are an exception that I very seldom see that good at 200 but have in the past. I just cant do it at will all the time. that 4 shot group is 3/4 vertical 9/16 horizontal shot at very good conditions.
The point is, a PP will shoot very well I think better then a GG my self.
208529

[Road_Clam]

You guys are the devil... I just bought Randy W's book. Stupid me I thought after I bought the 1874 Sharps my spending would be done.... Yeah sure....lol

[Lead pot]

:) NO_NO it's just starting :)

[rfd]

oh man, RC - yer gonna be SO hooked!

everyone's different, for sure, and i wish i had started with PPBs and not greasers.

[beltfed]

Road Clam,
good shooting for open sights, especially with challenging eyesight.
Unless you are using the rifle for hunting, I suggest that you change out that Blade for a
Hooded front aperture sight such as the Distant Thunder with level.
Along with a good Tang sight.
beltfed/arnie

[Road_Clam]

Road Clam,
good shooting for open sights, especially with challenging eyesight.
Unless you are using the rifle for hunting, I suggest that you change out that Blade for a
Hooded front aperture sight such as the Distant Thunder with level.
Along with a good Tang sight.
beltfed/arnie

In about 4 weeks and $660 later, i'll be sporting the MVA 5x optic with the #2 turret. Like i've commented this rifle is specifically for reaching out to 600 yards and i'm only capable with irons out to about 2-300 yds with my horrible vision. The rear leaf on my 1874 is pretty cheesball.

[country gent]

I have 3 of the 6x MVA scopes. One 28" and 2 34" These all have the long range rear mount and are mounted on 17" ring spacing. They are very good scopes. These scopes are dependent on the ring spacing for the adjustments to be correct. I use the MVA long range soule rear sight with a Hadley eye cup. One nice thing with the MVA mounts is you can switch with just another set of blocks for the new rifle. Once zeroed on a rifle setting the vernieer to the right setting gets you very close.
One thing I would recommend for a rifle with these scopes is a Plano Air glide case. It holds the rifle up right and no pressures or force on the scope and or mounts. Its similar to the old buggy boxes used years ago. A secure case for a rifle set up like this. A good line note book will help you a lot as time goes on with refining zeros and other settings. Over time you will have sight settings for a given load and conditions from multiple days allowing the scope to be set to a zero very close.
Next is a line box for keeping all the little bits and pieces organized and close by. A part of this is a cleaning cradle and cradle for a cleaning rod or 2. There have been some very nice set up shown on the site over the years.

[semtav]

Yea, If you start with PP , you'll save yourself so much money. All those lubes, barrel solvents to get the lead out and different jags, brushes etc to force the lead out wont even be needed, plus you'll spend way less time cleaning the barrel, just a couple patches and you'll be done.

[rfd]

Yea, If you start with PP , you'll save yourself so much money. All those lubes, barrel solvents to get the lead out and different jags, brushes etc to force the lead out wont even be needed, plus you'll spend way less time cleaning the barrel, just a couple patches and you'll be done.

... and less press dies (or none at all) and no concern over cartridge OAL.

[Randy C]

:popcorn: