Is Shell Holder Quality as Important as Die Quality?

[6bg6ga]

I got to thinking yesterday when I went thru my reloading dies that I use with my turret press. Do I need to use RCBS shell holders with RCBS dies to optimize results? Can I use say Lyman or Lee and obtain the same results? I started making a list of the needed shell holders and found something somewhat amusing. Lee for example lists their #11 shell holder for the 44 magnum as well as the 45LC. Now, I don't happen to own a #11 Lee shell holder but it has me wondering just how the #11 would work considering the differences in the two cartridges. Sorry Lee, I'll continue to use my #20 RCBS shell holder that actually fits the cartridge than try to use a miss matched shell holder.

Shell holder height... how many have machined the height down a tad in order to properly size a given cartridge?

[Mr_Sheesh]

For full length sizing, you want the die to just touch the shell holder (and a few mils of gap like "a matchbook cover thickness" for carbide size dies so you don't crack them.) So I think of it as matching the shell holder with the dies so you don't change the bullet seating or neck expansion spacing or break a carbide die. I've deburred a couple that had issues but no other changes that I remember.

[15meter]

I've ground down the thickness of a couple of shellholders, I have one on the bench right now that needs it.

The only time I have had to do it was during case conversions. The current problem child is a 350 Rigby Magnum die that I use to convert 375 H&H into the 350. About 30% of the time the shoulder is not set back far enough to close the bolt.

Next batch I may anneal before sizing, softening the neck may let it move easier with less spring back.

[ReloaderFred]

If you measure the various dimensions of several shell holders you're going to find variances, even within the same brand and in the same caliber. They're all "in spec", generally, but there can still be differences. I make it a habit to pair a shell holder with a die set and leave it in the die box with the dies. I also try to have several shell holders for each caliber I load, which is 33 different calibers at the moment. I also label my shell holders so they don't get mixed up.

I've only had to mill off the top of one shell holder, and that was for 357 Sig, since it didn't allow the shoulder to be set back enough to chamber in my various pistols in that caliber. All the literature about the 357 Sig says the case headspaces off the case mouth, but there are actually two datum points with this case, the mouth and the shoulder. If either one is too long, the round can't chamber.

Hope this helps.

Fred

[dragon813gt]

I've had no issues using Lee shell holders w/ other brands of dies. They are a more one size fits all approach. But this hasn't caused an issue for me. You can buy Redding Competition shell holder sets for certain cartridges that come in .002" increments to control shoulder bump. So is some cases, no pun intended, the shell holder can be very important.

[country gent]

There are manufacturing tolerences in shell holders same as all things made, this is usually shown on the drawings as mean dimension and +/- it can be off. I'm not so concerned to maker as to squareness and parallel then dimensions. Dimensions being off can be adjusted for with the die setting if on the small side or ground down if on the high side. Out of square or parallel is much harder to fix, and usually requires lightly facing the case area then removing that amount from the top. As these are hardened and it takes a narrow tool to do it its tricky to do. I have 3 sets of lyman shell holders currently one set is +.005 one set is 0 and the last is -.005 this covers a most die tolerences and chambers. I may add 2 more sets in the future at +.010, and -.010 to make it complete.

[mdi]

I would think there are a couple dimensions that are important for shell holders; first the amount of metal the will engage the shell rim when pulling the case back out of a die. Too sloppy and case rims can be "jumped" leaving a case stuck in the die and/or possibly rims torn. The other is the "squareness" of the surface where the case contacts. If tilted/out of square the cartridge may be started into the die crooked, causing distorted cases, crooked bullet seating, etc.

[country gent]

AN out of square shell holder will actually push the case heads out of square when sizing. Causing accuracy problems and chambering problems at times.

[AZ Pete]

They all work pretty well, mix and match. The rare time you may encounter issues is with a minimum spec. chamber. That is when the variation within tolerances is most likely to result in brass that is just not quite sized enough. This is assuming the base and die are within spec. to begin with.


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[Lloyd Smale]

I don't think there a major player in accuracy. Just look at a co axe press. there marketing suggests there better because he die allows a bit of float to "self center" a case. I would think a bit sloppy shell holder would accomplish the same thing.

[jmorris]

No, with some presses you don't even use the shell holder that might come with a die set but you still need dies.

Not to mention if they were really that important every die set would come with a matched shell holder.

[mdi]

Agree with Lloyd. But if the base on which the jaws ride is out of square, the case will be tilted and the "float" won't correct the tilt. The float allows the case to enter the die and self center, but if the base is crooked, the case is off center on a different axis. Personally, I think the Co-Ax shell holder system is near perfect. The Jaw holder is ground flat and the jaws are hardened and ground. I've been using mine for just under a year and have found it so much easier to use than "Universal" shell holders...

[AZ Pete]

Lloyd, my experience has been that the thickness of the top of the shell holder is the one area that can cause under sizing of brass. I have had no issues with loose fit, except when I picked up the wrong shell holder to begin with. Operator error, in that event.


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[georgerkahn]

To the best of my knowledge, ALL shell holders by major manufacturers are made to the same specs, making them very similar. Here, there are variables, as if you factor the model of press with the model and condition of die in it, the condition of the brass not excluding the device it was fired, and chamber of said device to possibly move shoulder; add a few more variables, you end up with a number with quite a few commas between the product! I commend your thinking on this, as the distance the shell holder provides is a variable in the reloading process surely worth being cognizant of!
A product which may illustrate this to you is marketed by Redding, in New York State, and they tout it on their web-site with URL: http://www.redding-reloading.com/online-catalog/35-competition-shellholder-sets . You can clearly see the wee differences from each 'holder in the set does in fact impart a change. I, personally, have a few 'holders -- a Pacific, a Herters, and an unmarked brand which will make as much marked change as the Redding cited set does -- 'cept the Redding does it with reloaders' intent :). I do nt have any Lee brand 'holders, and the Lyman vs. RCBS seem pretty similar, but when I have, I seem to always prefer the RCBS.
BEST! geo

[Lloyd Smale]

yup some brands and even some runs of the same brand have different thickness and you at least have to stroke the press to see if it cams over and also check an empty case to see if it chambers easily into that specific gun before you load a pile. Ive got a 2506 that's a custom gun made on a interarms mauser action. I had about 200 rounds loaded for it out of a load that is its favorite load. My buddy has a savage 2506 (actually his granddaughters gun) and they were going on a youth hunt and as usual he was out of ammo. He asked if I had some and I gave him two boxes and he never tried them in his gun till he got down state and found out they wouldn't even chamber. so in all reality you have to ajust for the gun your using as much or more for thickness of a shell holder.
Lloyd, my experience has been that the thickness of the top of the shell holder is the one area that can cause under sizing of brass. I have had no issues with loose fit, except when I picked up the wrong shell holder to begin with. Operator error, in that event.


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[6bg6ga]

No, with some presses you don't even use the shell holder that might come with a die set but you still need dies.

Not to mention if they were really that important every die set would come with a matched shell holder.

Shell holders used to come with dies. I guess greed has them selling the holders individually.

[Wayne Smith]

Lee is the only one who provides shell holders with dies. In over 40 years of loading I've always had to buy RCBS/Lyman shell holders separately.

[ReloaderFred]

RCBS, Lyman, Redding and Hornady have never sold shell holders with their dies, and neither did Hollywood, Bair, Eagle or any of the others that have fallen by the wayside. Only Lee sells a shell holder with their die, but I normally go further down the alphabet when looking for dies for a new caliber.

Hope this helps.

Fred

[6bg6ga]

Lee is the only one who provides shell holders with dies. In over 40 years of loading I've always had to buy RCBS/Lyman shell holders separately.

Unfortunately the quality just isn't there in the Lee shell holders either.

[David2011]

My .223 cases weren’t setting back quite enough at the shoulder. I had to mill a few thousandths off of the shell holder to get the correct setback. I tried several shell holders before altering one and none gave the correct setback. Clearly the issue is the length of the sizing die but “always alter the least expensive part.”

[Tom W.]

I have a Redding shell holder that I use for my 30-06 A.I. and some brass will just not fit. However, the shell holder from Hornady for 30-06 will accept them all. I have a habit of buying a shell holder for each set of dies that I buy, even though some use the same one.

[JSnover]

I have one #3 shell holder that is a little snug. Have to wiggle the brass a bit to get it in. But I have two other #3s that work just fine so I tossed it into the 'parts' box. I'd rather have them a little loose so they don't pull the case head off center as the brass enters the die.

[OS OK]

Keeping track of those 'lil buggers' has been my biggest problem...then being able to see those little stamps that identify them...then there's the different numbers the manufacturer puts on them...I had to simplify a 'wee-lill-bit'...



208376

Then...after this I discovered that the priming hole in the center is of various sizes too...we just can't win!

[MT Chambers]

Lee is the only one who provides shell holders with dies. In over 40 years of loading I've always had to buy RCBS/Lyman shell holders separately.
Lee figures that if the dies are "off" the shell holder should be too.

[6bg6ga]

Lee figures that if the dies are "off" the shell holder should be too.

That is exactly why Lee uses the same shell holder for the 44Magnum as they do the 45LC. It gives that "Perfect" fit.

[Tom W.]

I keep the shell holder in the respective die box. And an extra one in the priming device, at least for the 9mm.

[6bg6ga]

Keeping track of those 'lil buggers' has been my biggest problem...then being able to see those little stamps that identify them...then there's the different numbers the manufacturer puts on them...I had to simplify a 'wee-lill-bit'...



208376

Then...after this I discovered that the priming hole in the center is of various sizes too...we just can't win!

I use magic marker to identify them. Yes, various sizes of the priming hole. Yes, there are variations in the height of the shell holders. Some require them to be machined in order to be able to size the case correctly. Then of course there are the non-fitting, tight fitting, loose fitting shell holders.

[Rick Hodges]

I have Lee, RCBS, and Lyman shell holders and dies. Redding dies and press. I use them interchangeably with no problems. The dies have to be set in the press with which shell holder I am using.

I load for both .44 Mag and 45 Colt with Lee dies and the same shell holder and it has caused exactly zero problems. Perhaps with automated and or progressive set ups there is an issue. I just haven't found one yet.

[jmorris]

Perhaps with automated and or progressive set ups there is an issue.

The issues is that progressives don’t use a single shell holder, rather a plate that holds several cases in place but yeah, if the holder was that important progressives just wouldn’t work.

Can you place a case under the die so it can enter?
Can you pull a case that has been inserted into a die, back out?
Can you place the centerline of the case parallel to ram movement?

That’s all a shell holder/plate has to do.

[6bg6ga]

I have Lee, RCBS, and Lyman shell holders and dies. Redding dies and press. I use them interchangeably with no problems. The dies have to be set in the press with which shell holder I am using.

I load for both .44 Mag and 45 Colt with Lee dies and the same shell holder and it has caused exactly zero problems. Perhaps with automated and or progressive set ups there is an issue. I just haven't found one yet.

I doubt that you will ever see a standard shell holder on a progressive press like a Dillon or Hornady since they all have their proprietary shell holders/disks that you pay dearly for. You must have the only Lee shell holder that works for both the 44 magnum and 45 lC. All I have seen are an it almost works. Poorly designed and thought out on their part. Most people end up purchasing both the 44 mag and the 45LC shell holders because unlike the Lee they actually fit and work.

[Road_Clam]

I like to use fire formed casings on my precision match bolt rifles as my baseline for measuring the shoulder. Years ago I purchased the Larry Willis digital headspace gauge. Very quick and handy tool for monitoring and adjusting shoulder setback. I have found small variances in shoulder bump within varied die and shellplate combos and weather you set your dies for "over cam" or "just touching the die" methods.

http://www.larrywillis.com/

[IllinoisCoyoteHunter]

The shellholder needs to have a square deck and enough metal to engage the case rim and remove it from the die without ripping the rim off. Period. Nothing more nothing less. The dies are can be adjusted for the amount of FL sizing (except those few cases where the top of the holder needs to be skimmed OR the bottom of the die needs turned or ground...which is rare). If a case is not a "perfect" fit in the shell holder, the case will float and enter the die just fine (as long as there is a nice radius or chamfer at the die mouth).

Look at the differences in rim thickness and diameter between the 45 colt and 44 mag...and diameter at the base of the case has a relatively small difference too.

[6bg6ga]

The shellholder needs to have a square deck and enough metal to engage the case rim and remove it from the die without ripping the rim off. Period. Nothing more nothing less. The dies are can be adjusted for the amount of FL sizing (except those few cases where the top of the holder needs to be skimmed OR the bottom of the die needs turned or ground...which is rare). If a case is not a "perfect" fit in the shell holder, the case will float and enter the die just fine (as long as there is a nice radius or chamfer at the die mouth).

Look at the differences in rim thickness and diameter between the 45 colt and 44 mag...and diameter at the base of the case has a relatively small difference too.

Every Lee 44/45LC shell holder that I tried had a problem. Maybe your one of those lucky people that managed to get one that works. I can assure you its not the norm.

Seen my share of shell holders that needed machined in order to obtain the correct height. Just too much tolerance between SOME of the dies out there and the shell holders. I actually thought some of you would understand this.

[IllinoisCoyoteHunter]

There is a tolerance in both the dies and the shell holder. If both are at the far opposite ends of the tolerance (or even OUT of tolerance) then they may need to be tweaked. There HAS to be tolerances built in. No one can machine to the thousandth EVERY time. Do YOU understand this???

[6bg6ga]

There is a tolerance in both the dies and the shell holder. If both are at the far opposite ends of the tolerance (or even OUT of tolerance) then they may need to be tweaked. There HAS to be tolerances built in. No one can machine to the thousandth EVERY time. Do YOU understand this???

Actually I do understand this. I was a quality control supervisor and I was a master machinist. So, I think I have a clear understanding but lack the patience to put up with junk. Given the quality of the machines today there is a capability to get the tolerances pretty close so there should be no excuse for present day manufactured dies and shell holders to have problems.

I do blame companies for the lack of quality. Its a shame that a little more setup time or a few less parts an hour would yeald a better made quality part.

[jmorris]

Seen my share of shell holders that needed machined in order to obtain the correct height. Just too much tolerance between SOME of the dies out there and the shell holders. I actually thought some of you would understand this.

I have modified shell holders and dies myself but I have to ask what exactly have you machined to get the correct height on them and how did you determine what “correct” was?

I ask this because if you just needed to lower the die towards the shell holder to get proper head space for a particular rifle, is that the fault of the die, the shell holder or the rifle?

It’s pretty obvious that the distance between the bottom of the shell holder and “deck” is of little importance because we can move the die up and down all we want.

So the only thing that can cause a problem relative to the die, is the distance from the “deck” to the top of the shell holder. I have reduced the thickness of that part to shorten the headspace distance a die can form a case to. I have also torn the top out of a shell holder because that made the extractor portion too thin.

So I have also machine the radius slightly at the mouth of the die so I could move it down further to the “deck” of the shell holder to accomplish the same thing. The tops of the shell holder remain thick enough to not tear out at this point.


I concluded, for me, it’s best to make the die “right” than mess with the shell holder/shell plate.


Given the quality of the machines today there is a capability to get the tolerances pretty close so there should be no excuse for present day manufactured dies and shell holders to have problems.

The problem isn’t tolerances, rather specifications. SAAMI has them for the internal dimensions to form or reform the case but below that point in the die, all bets are off. If it were a lack in different manufacturers to hold critical tolerances, things like not being able to thread into the machine would show up.

You can’t be too far off tolerance or a 7/8-14 “go” thread becomes a “no go”. However, if you don’t specify, it’s luck at that point.

[IllinoisCoyoteHunter]

Yes making the die right is the best way to go. Decking shell holders only thins the top and it can break when pulling cases from dies. Ask me how I know this...

[IllinoisCoyoteHunter]

Modern machines are excellent. Operator complacency and lack of inspecting parts periodically as they come off the machine is the cause of most out of tolerance parts. Cutting tools degrade and fixtures/setups can move. But you already knew this so this is for all those other people out there.

[6bg6ga]

Modern machines are excellent. Operator complacency and lack of inspecting parts periodically as they come off the machine is the cause of most out of tolerance parts. Cutting tools degrade and fixtures/setups can move. But you already knew this so this is for all those other people out there.

Operator error, companies having set quotas per hour, and inspection cuts help produce bad parts. Years ago operators had pride which contributed to better made parts. Yes, tooling becomes dull and degrades thus the possibility for a shift in tolerance. If the setup was correct in the first place fixtures don't move. It all boils down to how many pieces can be manufactured per hour and are they close enough to use. In my years in the factory I rejected a number of parts because they didn't meet tolerances only to have them be used anyway. So,
inspection means nothing in todays world.

[IllinoisCoyoteHunter]

I agree. There are few guys in our shop that still take pride in their work and take the extra time and effort to inspect parts on their own. Sad.

[6bg6ga]

I agree. There are few guys in our shop that still take pride in their work and take the extra time and effort to inspect parts on their own. Sad.

Back years ago when I worked in the factory the operators were responsible for their setups and what we called first piece. They setup their machines and produced a good piece which was brought to me for inspection. Once I passed the part they went into production and parts were checked by both the operators and my inspectors or myself. It is a shame when quality goes down hill in favor of quantity. Take pride in the fact that you and your shop still produce high quality parts.

[vzerone]

There are manufacturing tolerences in shell holders same as all things made, this is usually shown on the drawings as mean dimension and +/- it can be off. I'm not so concerned to maker as to squareness and parallel then dimensions. Dimensions being off can be adjusted for with the die setting if on the small side or ground down if on the high side. Out of square or parallel is much harder to fix, and usually requires lightly facing the case area then removing that amount from the top. As these are hardened and it takes a narrow tool to do it its tricky to do. I have 3 sets of lyman shell holders currently one set is +.005 one set is 0 and the last is -.005 this covers a most die tolerences and chambers. I may add 2 more sets in the future at +.010, and -.010 to make it complete.

You're dead on sir. The important measurement to me is the case face area and that is where I see differences in specs. Over the years I buy less and less LEE stuff. Their shell holders are generic to fit many cases. When you see companies like RCBS and Redding having an extensive list of shells holder that tells you they are concerned about fit.

[IllinoisCoyoteHunter]

They are also concerned about making money LOL! :D

[vzerone]

They are also concerned about making money LOL! :D

Money rules the world! Look at the politicians in the White House.

[country gent]

When the accountants start running the company instead of the people who are the "doers" quality goes out the door. Most no longer realize a company cnt be ran to make a profit but has to make a product or product line and the profits follow. Tooling or parts that need modified or reworked to be right out of the box are an insult to the consumer. A friend bought a cicular saw a few months ago brand new the plate in the fixed direction was 4*-5* out of square. You couldnt make a good cut if you wanted to with out re working it. Ruger is going thru this now that the family has taken over, Lee is fighting withissue at times. Lyman mouds are an issue with roundness and sizes at times.
Between the penny counters pushing for faster and faster and lack of pride craftsmanship the products suffer. Some of this is even hurting the skilled trades most tradesman now don't see a file saw chisel as precision tools. Most have never blued and scraped a surface in. Most have never had to hand fit a part. If it cant be programmed its not worth doing

[lightman]

[QUOTE=OS OK;4212317]Keeping track of those 'lil buggers' has been my biggest problem...then being able to see those little stamps that identify them...then there's the different numbers the manufacturer puts on them...I had to simplify a 'wee-lill-bit'..

When I first started reloading I bought a set of plastic parts drawers. I cut a piece of wood to fit one of them, drilled rows of holes in it and used a piece of wooden dowel (actually a corn dog stick) to hold them. This worked ok but eventually the number of calibers that I loaded exceeded the capacity of the little drawer and I bought that board that RCBS makes to hold shell holders. Over the years I have been happy with that arrangement. Anything custom that I load for gets its own shell holder and is stored with the dies.

I've only once encountered a situation where a sizing die / shell holder combination would not size a case enough to chamber. After trying other dies (borrowed) and other shell holders (also borrowed), I had a few thousands milled off of the shell holder. I painted it red so that I had a visual clue that it was modified even though I kept it in the box with the dies. This was a MK X Mauser in 7 MM Magnum.

[Walks]

I have shellholders from all current Reloading Equipment Manufacturers & even some from Companies now defunct, such as BAIR & LACHMILLER. ALL work well, LEE shellholders are ****. I had a friend that bought cheap Lee dies. Three times I had to remove a stuck case from his Lee dies because the rim had torn off. And yes he lube his cases correctly.
If you ever read their warranty you'll find just how bad they think their own stuff is.

[6bg6ga]

I have shellholders from all current Reloading Equipment Manufacturers & even some from Companies now defunct, such as BAIR & LACHMILLER. ALL work well, LEE shellholders are ****. I had a friend that bought cheap Lee dies. Three times I had to remove a stuck case from his Lee dies because the rim had torn off. And yes he lube his cases correctly.
If you ever read their warranty you'll find just how bad they think their own stuff is.

My experience with Lee..... bought several things in the past. Bought a 9mm taper crimp die which was total ****. Bought a universal decapping die which works fine now after replacing the beer can decapper with a real aftermarket one. I couldn't get 500 cases decapped with the original type Lee decapping pin assembly.

My experience with shell holders... The older ones seem to be machined better. Nothing off center with the old stuff. The newer holders some are machined with the slot slightly off center which can cause problems.