Lets try this again, brisk .32 acp loads for 90-95 g cast bullets

[YR!]

I am thoroughly chastised. I would like a brisk load for the 90-95 grain bullet. Thanking you in advance.

[Grmps]

http://castpics.net/dpl/index.php/reloaders-reference/cast-bullet-data-lookup

back these off .5 grains and work your way up watching for pressure signs and when accuracy drops off

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?215528-32acp-314-100gr-reload-data

87 grn
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?291374-32-ACP-quot-Balls-Up-quot-Serious-Loads-with-Accurate-31-087T

link to load data links
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?337910-CB-load-data-online-sources

[YR!]

Thanks

[Outpost75]

"Brisk Load" for 90-95-grainer I can do:

In my M1903 Colt, Beretta 1935 and Walther PP I replaced the original recoil springs with replacements intended for the .380 ACP to reduce punishment to the guns when firing heavy loads.

Suitable, sturdy .32 ACP pistols able to safely handle a steady diet of the heavy-bullet loads are the Beretta M81, M70, M1935, Colt M1903, Walther PP, Mauser HSc, CZ27, and CZ50. My advice is to severely limit loads producing over 130 ft.-lbs. to only occasional/emergency use in micro pistols like the Beretta Tomcat or Keltec for two reasons:

1) because they may cause serious “slide bite” if you have meaty hands and don’t use a Hogue Grip Sleeve, as I painfully found out, and

2) after prolonged firing, [over 1000 rounds] they are “frame crackers.”

My Beretta Model 3032 INOX Tomcat test platform, digested about 2000 rounds of hot CIP-Euro and heavy cast bullet loads before failing. In the Keltec heavy loads spread the frame rails, release the takedown pin and the pistol self-disassembles.

If you own a Beretta Tomcat, open the tip-up barrel and inspect the right frame rail above the trigger pivot for cracks. Beretta doesn’t “repair or replace” these any more, nor do they warrant the pistol for use with hand loads or ammunition exceeding 130 ft.-lbs. manufacturer’s rating. If you shoot heavy loads in the Tomcat you will soon turn the pistol into an unrepairable, expensive paper weight.

I fire the heavy bullet .32 ACP loads in STEEL FRAME, standard sized guns such as the Colt M1903, Walther PP, Beretta M1935, CZ27, etc., replacing recoil springs with the heavier Wolff .380 ACP replacements where available.

Accurate 31-087T as hollow-pointed by Erik at www.hollowpointmold.com weighs 82-83 grains in 1:30 tin-lead. It exceeds 900 fps from my 1914 Type III Colt’s 3-3/4” barrel with 5.6 grains of #2400 and with 3 grains of Auto Comp approaches 1000 fps from my postwar 3.4” Beretta M1935. I use a 60-degree conical seating plug to prevent cavity collapse during seating and to slightly flare the cavity opening. In 1:30 alloy out of the Tomcat they expand reliably to .50 caliber and penetrate 24 inches of water jugs - much deeper than factory JHPs, if they are fragile enough to expand when fired from a barrel shorter than 3 inches.

Inspection of ejected cartridge cases showed no bulged heads, flattened or backed out primers, or other evidence of early opening, indicating significant residual chamber pressure. Case heads which swell and fired brass which won't go back into the shell holder to resize, indicate excess pressure in a blowback gun!

Rim lock can happen in .32 ACP pistols when overall cartridge length is less than about 0.94" because shorter cartridges have room to move longitudinally from their “as-stacked” position in the magazine box under recoil. This causes the semi-rim of the cartridge on top to lodge behind that of the cartridge beneath it, so that the top cartridge cannot be stripped normally from the magazine during the feed cycle.

The highly touted 75-grain Buffalo Bore FN load is only 0.915” long, to feed in the Seecamp pistol.
I call it the “Jam-o-matic” due to rim lock issues and consistent failures to feed in WW2-era guns and others with standard-length magazines. In the typical failure-to-feed, the bullet meplat hangs up on the chamber entrance at 12:00. This happened frequently in my Colt M1903, and occasionally in my Walther PP, Beretta M1935, CZ27, and other Pistols designed for Euro hardball ammo of 0.96-0.98" OAL.

Rim lock is prevented by loading bullets of adequate 0.26" nose length and suitable profile which fits the magazine box, at 0.94” overall cartridge length or greater. This prevents rounds from “shuffling in the stack” during recoil, so that rim lock then cannot occur.

In personal defense handguns of small caliber, generating less than 200 ft.-lbs. of kinetic energy, reliable function and adequate penetration, not less than 20” of water or 12” of gelatin, are more important than expansion, in my opinion. Experienced users of deep-concealment, hideaway guns agree, based on police and military experience dating all the way back to Fairbairn and Sykes experiences in China before WW2, and continuing through the Cold War era.

The design objective of Accurate 31-090B by Tom Ellis was a heavier Buffalo Bore Style profile of longer, 0.26” nose length to ensure a minimum 0.94” overall cartridge length in .32 ACP with a meplat of 0.20” (0.64 of bullet diameter) and ogival profile which fits the magazine box interior profile closely to positively prevent any possibility of rim lock.

The 31-095T has the same nose length with an absolutely huge (for the .32 ACP) .25” meplat (0.80 of bullet diameter), and having a short radius behind the flat to contact the feed ramp for reliable feeding. Its tapered nose fits the CIP throat. This is the heaviest, most blunt bullet possible to load in the .32 ACP and feed reliably in Colt and Beretta pistols. Velocity in .32 ACP with 5.2 grains of Alliant #2400 approximates the .32 S&W Long fired from a revolver of the same barrel length.

The RCBS Little Dandy measure Rotor #00 meters 1.7 grains of Bullseye which provides a pleasant, mild and reliable practice load in the .32 ACP with 87 through 95-grain cast bullets, approximating .32 S&W Long ballistics from a 4" revolver of the same barrel length. The #00 rotor also meters 2 grains of TiteGroup, which is a full-charge with 77 or 78 grain bullets for safe use in alloy frame guns. The #00 rotor also meters 2.5 grains of AutoComp, a which is a standard-pressure load with 87 to 95-grain bullets giving about 850 fps from a 3.4” pocket pistol.

Rotor #0 meters 2.2 grains of Bullseye, a factory-equivalent load in .32 ACP with standard weight 71-77 grain bullets. Mine actually averages 2.05 of current Alliant product and 2.1 of older Hercules from the 1970s. Bullseye, like TiteGroup, peaks quickly with small increases in charge weight, so you must be cautious. Using RCBS Rotor #0 with current Alliant Bullseye, the Accurate 31-090B bullet gets 850 fps from my M1903 Colt with 3-3/4” barrel which should not be exceeded.

Rotor #1, according to the RCBS charge table, meters 2.5 grains of Bullseye. Mine actually averages 2.35 of current Alliant product and 2.4 of older Hercules. This is a full charge load with the 71-grain Magtech, Hornady or Remington FMJ bullets at 0.97” OAL for 968 fps, from a 3.5” barrel, approximating CIP-Euro factory ammunition.

.32 ACP Hand Loads - Min. OAL 0.945”

“Group 1” Standard Loads▪ which don’t exceed factory energy, suitable as a "steady diet" for use in light alloy frame pistols:

Ammunition ________________Beretta Tomcat 2.4”____Beretta M1935 3.4”

Acc. 31-077B LD#00 2.0 TiteGroup__790, 12 Sd_____________893, 19 Sd
Acc. 31-077B LD#0 2.2 Bullseye____757, 16 Sd_____________932, 24 Sd
Acc. 31-077B LD#1 2.5 Bullseye____835, 16 Sd_____________956, 18 Sd
Acc. 31-077B LD#0 3.0 AutoComp__837, 10 Sd_____________957, 16 Sd

Acc.31-090B LD#00 2.5 AutoComp__729, 11 Sd____________833, 6 Sd

Acc. 31-095T LD#00 1.7 Bullseye_____640, 11 Sd___________729, 9 Sd
Acc. 31-095T LD#00 2.5 AutoComp___741, 25 Sd___________840, 6 Sd
Acc. 31-095T LD#6 5.2 #2400_______750, 17 Sd___________874, 13 Sd

“Group 2” +P Loads which exceed “average factory energy” for steel frame pistols with heavy duty replacement recoil springs.

NR! - Not recommended for Beretta Tomcat or Keltec, frame cracked after use of these loads!!!!

Ammunition ________________Beretta Tomcat 2.4”NR!____Beretta M1935 3.4”
Accurate 31-077B 5.9 #2400______913 fps, 16 Sd___________1027 fps, 15 Sd
Acc.31-077B LD#7 5.6 #2400______892, 26 Sd______________998, 22 Sd
Acc. 31-077B LD#4 3.0 Unique_____965, 26 Sd_____________1067 fps, 19 Sd

Acc. 31-087T LD#0 3.0 AutoComp__843, 18 Sd___________962, 19 Sd
Acc. 31-087T LD#7, 5.6 #2400______825,15 Sd____________926, 14 Sd

Acc. 31-090B LD#0, 2.2 Bullseye____800 fps, 8 Sd_________851, 14 Sd
Acc. 31-090B 2.3 grains HP38______824 fps, 5 Sd_________839, 16 Sd
Acc. 31-090B 2.5 grain Unique_____ 815 fps, 23 Sd________901, 33 Sd
Acc. 31-090B LD#00 2.0 Titegroup__818, 12 Sd____________902, 16 Sd
Acc. 31-090B LD#0, 3.0 AutoComp+P_915 fps, 16 Sd________999, 14 Sd
Acc. 31-090B LD#6, 5.2 #2400______821 fps, 23 Sd________878, 20 Sd
Acc. 31-090V LD#7 5.6 #2400_______n/f________________904, 20 Sd*
Acc. 31-095T LD#0 3.0 AutoComp___n/f_________________914, 15 Sd

Hdy 85XTP.312” LD#0 3.0 AutoComp+P__853, 23 Sd_________976, 8 Sd
Hdy 90XTP.309” LD#0 3.0 AutoComp+P__868, 12 Sd_________968, 17 Sd
Nor 93FMJ .307” LD#0 3.0 AutoComp+P__856, 6 Sd_________933, 11 Sd

207715207716

[runfiverun]

well I was gonna say Outpost is the MAN when it comes to 32 cal type stuff.
but he just proved it so I don't gotta say it.

[Texas by God]

Those 95 grs that Outpost gave me had power & accuracy way beyond what I had known from a 7.65 PP. And the recoil was there, too. The guy knows lots.


Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

[Outpost75]

Those 95 grs that Outpost gave me had power & accuracy way beyond what I had known from a 7.65 PP. And the recoil was there, too. The guy knows lots. Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

I had a learned mentor who coached me in assembling ammo he carried into "denied areas" of the Eastern Bloc during the Cold War. I loaded for him 100-grain Winchester lead FN .32-20 slugs in sterile primed cases with no headstamp with Infallible powder... Last four rounds in his mags were steel core Czech Vz61 Scorpion SMG loads because he figured after a while everybody would be behind cover...

He returned CONUS and lived to tell the tale, and went on another mission from which came the saga of playing whack-a-mole with an M1922 Browning dispatching hypothermic Chinese swimmers boarding the boat with knives in the South China Sea between Kemoy and Matsu...

[YR!]

Absolutely fantastic! Just what I need. I am printing this right away for my files. Many, many thanks. Mark

[jdfoxinc]

I have a Beretta 81 and an astra 1916. I am also looking at a FEG. PP clone. Will they hold up?

[Outpost75]

I have a Beretta 81 and an astra 1916. I am also looking at a FEG. PP clone. Will they hold up?

Beretta will.
Manhurin and Walther PP will. Don't know about quality of the metallurgy in the FEG. If STEEL frame, maybe.
Forget about heavy loads in the Astra...

[jdfoxinc]

Thank you for the answer.

Are these loads published, or ones you worked up?

[Outpost75]

Thank you for the answer.

Are these loads published, or ones you worked up?

These are loads I've worked up, and which have been tested in multiple pistols, by multiple users. Project was published in The Cast Bullet Association's Fouling Shot magazine. Have NOT been pressure tested, but have been highly satisfactory in STEEL FRAME pistols with recoil springs replaced by heavier duty .380 ACP springs in models for which they are available.

NOT for use in light alloy frames! In the course of testing we destroyed one Beretta Tomcat and a Keltec with frame cracks.

The 1903 Colts, Walther PPs, CZ27s, Beretta 1935s have digested multiple thousands of rounds with no issues.

[rintinglen]

I had a Colt 1903 that I set up for heavy loads, replacing the recoil spring with a Wolff 1908 380 spring, fashioning a slide buff from a piece of broken toy and loading RCBS 32-84 boolits to 900 + fps. The fly in the ointment for me in heavy boolit loads is that they don't shoot to point of aim very well. I had the same experience when loading 358-242 122 grain boolits in 380 for my PPK--very far off the mark.

[Outpost75]

Alot may depend upon your grip tension and whether you shoot with one hand or two.

My 1920 Type II Colt shoots them to point of aim, as do also my Walther PP and Beretta 1935.

I do grip them as I would a .45 hardball gun and use both hands...

[Hardcast416taylor]

Some years back I inherited a WW 2 `trophy` CZ 27 complete with holster and spare clip. I`ve never tried cast thru it just `J` bullets, thanks for a place to start.Robert

[Outpost75]

Some years back I inherited a WW 2 `trophy` CZ 27 complete with holster and spare clip. I`ve never tried cast thru it just `J` bullets, thanks for a place to start.Robert

Good bullet for CZ27 is Accurate 31-087T. MOST reliable feeder for guns which don't like JHPs or flatnosed cast. But try a few Hornady 90-grain XTPs in yours and if they feed, the Accurate 31-090B will also.

The original CZ springs are stiff enough as they come. The pistol is built stout as a little anvil.

I used one for my initial .32 ACP heavy load development. My reasoning was that if the Czechs loaded 70-grain steel core PS Ball in 7.65mm which gave 1200 fps from the CZ27 and 1400 fps in the Vz61 Scorpion machinepistol, and their ordinary 74-grain ball was the hottest out there, about 1000 fps, that the CZ pistol was engineered from the gitgo for hot loads! Only reason I sold mine was because it was not a natural pointer for me. The Colt with heavy-upp-ed springs was and is accurate.

208211208212208213

[YR!]

I would sincerely suggest making this sequence into a sticky and posting above. Thank you YR!

[YR!]

You are the man. I have a Beretta 1935, CZ 70, and Tanfoglio G32. All are steel frame. I am purchasing a Seecamp .32. It should be in tomorrow. I did get the accurate mold for 90 g. It is amazing. Would you please be so kind as to recommend a load for the Seecamp. Mark

[Outpost75]

You are the man. I have a Beretta 1935, CZ 70, and Tanfoglio G32. All are steel frame. I am purchasing a Seecamp .32. It should be in tomorrow. I did get the accurate mold for 90 g. It is amazing. Would you please be so kind as to recommend a load for the Seecamp. Mark

I would put the Seecamp in the same strength category as the Beretta Tomcat. Drawback to the Seecamp is that the pistol was designed around the 60-grain Winchester Silvertip load which is only 0.915" OAL. ALL of the loads we tested are loaded to 0.945" MINIMUM and I DO NOT recommend seating bullets deeper for a shorter OAL because in this tiny case it will cause a dangerous increase in pressure. Sorry can't help you there.

[YR!]

Your advise is highly appreciated. Could you please suggest a CB load for my new Seecamp? Mark

[Outpost75]

Your advise is highly appreciated. Could you please suggest a CB load for my new Seecamp? Mark

Short overall length cartridges below .945" won't feed in any of the .32 ACPs I own, so have no data for any.

[vzerone]

Outpost75, many people bad mouth the 32 acp in comparsion to the 380 acp. I read some where many years ago when talking about these small calibers and small pistols that the CIA actually preferred the 32 acp, and in their words, because it penetrated deeper and raddled around inside the rib cage doing more damage then the 380 would do. In many years of having 32 acp's I have a good appreciation of the round. I too have loaded 100 round cast loads for mine too.

Good write up sir!

[Outpost75]

vzerone, you are correct in your assessment. If you have searched the open literature you probably heard the story of the Chinese boat captain playing "whack a mole" between Kemoy and Matsu islands in the South China sea, using a 1922 Browning, and as the story went, he pronounced the .32 ACP "entirely adequate for dispatching hypothermic combat swimmers armed with knives."

Much of the time the choice of weapon is not what is "best" for the job, but what will "blend in" with the locals and not attract attention. As Harry Archer once told me, "when in Rome do as the Romans do..."

Most of the time during the cold war clandestine services folks used whatever was normally used by the criminal elements in the target region. If anyone had carried a .357 or a .45 he would have been "made." A .32 ACP with Italian, German or Czech ammo is expected and ordinary. And in much of Europe civilians wouldn't have had .380 ACPs, as those were used by the police or army and they couldn't be owned by the general public. The .32 ACP is ubitquitious.