Strange Modern? Underhammer

[FrontierMuzzleloading]

Just came in off the truck. Zero markings other than

M2
1977
1:22
45 70

The barrel width is 1 1/8" - Length 30"

This is an underhammer but more of an inline set up with a scope and modern style walnut stock. Super heavy duty like for competition shooting.

Any ideas what I got? Any idea on value? The bore is perfect, almost looks unfire with my bore camera. Even the action is extremely clean. The wood has its little bruises but at 13lbs, i think thats understandable lol.
https://i.servimg.com/u/f62/18/40/56/85/23483210.jpg (https://servimg.com/view/18405685/379)

[dondiego]

It appears to have an H&A style action. These can be bought from Pecatonica with barrels and made into something like this.

[Wayne Smith]

Can't read what is on the card. Is that load information?

[FrontierMuzzleloading]

Yes

Twist 1-22
Patch .008
Groove dia .457
Ball size .437
Conical .450
Black Powder 70GR

[oldracer]

Probably someone made themselves a chunk gun. The large and flat fore stock is meant to sit on a log or other similar surface. Since there is 45-70 engraved on it the barrel might be from a conversion. The high cheek piece and rearward mounted scope would make the rifle very easy to shoot.

[FrontierMuzzleloading]

it does shoulder beautifully, its right there as soon as you bring the stock up. Good clean trigger pull as well.

[trails4u]

It is fantastically ugly...... I like it!

[FrontierMuzzleloading]

a lot of comp guns are ugly lol. Its balance though, mother of god! You can stand up and its so heavy, but its balance is awesome. A very steady rifle.

[Hannibal]

It is fantastically ugly...... I like it!

I was thinking the same thing. I'm considering building an underhammer, and now I've got a new 'twist' to think about. Thanks for posting this, very cool. :Bright idea:

[Good Cheer]

Yes

Twist 1-22
Patch .008
Groove dia .457
Ball size .437
Conical .450
Black Powder 70GR


What is the rifling pattern like, the width of the grooves versus the lands?

[FrontierMuzzleloading]

narrow lands, wide groove.

[GOPHER SLAYER]

I belonged to a large gun club many years ago, many decades really and we could buy those made by H&A for around $60 as I recall. The club was so large that we could buy at the same prices as distributors. It was the Santiago Rifle & Pistol Club in case some of you remember it. I had a .45 & a 38 caliber. The 45 would shoot a very small group if you didn't take any practice shots. After six or seven shots the group size would began to grow. I was late one Saturday for the 100 yard bench rest match but they agreed to wait for me if I just shot for record with no practice shots, so I did and I won the match. After that I didn't take practice shots. I only used the 38 caliber for fifty yard offhand matches. The rifles made by H&A looked nothing like the gun pictured here and I doubt if it did when it left the factory.

[richhodg66]

I like it a lot, where can I get one?

[FrontierMuzzleloading]

I like it a lot, where can I get one?
Im interested in letting it go.

[bedbugbilly]

I don't believe that a 1:22 twist was a standard H & A barrel however - and the H & A under hammers had Numeric barrels - known for their undersize. A year ago I sort of "restored" a H &
a underhammer - ie. the stock was broken, etc. That one has a 45 caliber barrel but it is undersize and requires a .437 ball which is what the scissor molds that came with them used to drop at for RB. Over the years, I'e owned a number of the H & As and all had Numerich barrels that had tight bores. I also bought one of the H & A copies that Deer Creek used to make but they had Green Mountain barrels on them as far as I know.

Any markings on the barrel at all? I'm not saying it isn't a H & A barrel but the 1:22 would not have been their "normal" production as far as I know . . . and I've been wrong before.

An interesting rifle that ought to be fun to see what it will do. A PP conical ought to work well out of it.

[FrontierMuzzleloading]

207741

[kens]

I never understood why the underhammer never caught on. True, it is ugly, but if it works, then it is actually just fine.
the underhammer with the nipple pointing directly to the powder charge, should be the ignition king of all caplock muzzleloaders.
it gives a clear & clean view of sights over the barrel.
the trigger guard is the mainspring, the trigger is the sear, the hammer is the tumbler, how much simpler can it get?

[FrontierMuzzleloading]

very true. Ive seen plenty of the traditional style under hammers but this one just really knocked my socks off. Seems more practical for a target shooter with the scope and comp style stock. I actually had it on the sand bags today at 100 yards. I didnt shoot, just wanted to feel it. Simply amazing how this heavy rifle just holds so solid.

[Boz330]

With that twist it will like slugs better than RBs. Probably made for a mid or LR gun.
Deer Creek made their own barrels before it was sold. They had 2 rifling machines on site. I have had 2 of their H&A RB guns in 50 cal and they shoot lights out, but they like a lot of powder (100gr 3F). I talked to the old owner and he had 28 employees in the hay day of the 70s and 80s building these and the Mowry rifles.

Bob

[kens]

I bet it will shoot a .45ACP bullet terrific. Cast them of pure soft, they will obturate and grab the rifling.
Try the LEE 452-220-TC.
I had good luck with that TC bullet out of my round ball barrel, it did grab rifling.

[FrontierMuzzleloading]

220gr seems pretty light for a 1:22 twist. I was thinking more in the 460+ gr range.

[kens]

the 45ACP bullet is easy to find, easy to cast, you probably already got a mold for that.
the 220gr will leave the muzzle at a good velocity, in that gun nearly 1900fps, maybe 2000.
that will shoot flat to a minute of steel out to 135yards or better.
the 460gr will be slow velocity and more trajectory.
If I remember correct, the standard twist for a 1911 is 1:16.
So a 1:22 is 37% slower than a 1:16.
Also, a too fast twist is easier to stabilize than a too slow twist. what I mean is you got more wiggle room with a fast twist than a slow twist.
I shoot a 260gr .45 pistol bullet through a 1:28 twist at a high velocity, and it is just fine.

[Boz330]

Pistol and rifle twist for the same boolit are usually different, but all you can do is try it and see what happens.
Years ago I tried shooting a 38-40 boolit in my 40cal ML with a 48 twist barrel. For the most part it shot minute of deer. About 1-7 rounds would be a serious flyer like 7 or 8 inches out of the group. Of course the flyer happened on a deer shot and I had to follow up and finish her while she was bleating like hell. I never used that 40 again for deer hunting. I don't take bad shots and I knew this was a possibility and figured the odds were in my favor. Hard lesson learned.

Bob

[oldracer]

Since this rifle is a muzzle loader, the bullet will probably need to be bore diameter or as on the card 0.450 or maybe 0.451. The groove diameter is 0.457 which was what my BPCR guns were and I shot 0.458 diameter bullets BUT they were loaded from the breech. You could try a 500 grain Creedmoor grease groove bullet and the 70 grains would be fine. Probably use a 0.060 fiber wad on top of the powder. The specs on the card are for round balls but I think the patch is really thin but that is what the builder of the rifle sez! That is the fun of an unknown gun as you get to experiment with it! I have two rifles like that, one came from WI and it shoots patched round balls out to 200 yards with about 1/2 minute groups when using my Lead Sled.

In thinking about it, the chunk gun I got from Emery (mentioned above) had mounts on the barrel for a scope like the one on yours. Maybe in the Northern U.S. there are matches for round balls and you can use a scope?

[Antietamgw]

T\Do you think the faster twists, 1-16 for instance, would foul much faster? I've been thinking about fitting a GreenMountain barrel spec'd for .45ACP on a Knight Inline that has an unusable barrel. It would be used in the field and range. Be nice not to have to clean after each round in the field.

[oldracer]

I would seriously doubt that is a field or hunting gun due to the stock and large barrel. The rifling will require a wet and dry patch after each shot. The fore stock is meant to be sitting on a rest or "log" or "table" for matches. In a private message I got, I suggested to post the pictures in as many forums as possible. Almost every state has black powder matches so while a bit of work, making up a short message and inserting the pictures as we have seen them then sending to whoever runs them. Someone has seen that gun and I imagine they are glad they do not have to shoot against it.