Weird things happened with my 454 Casull today

[ThaDoubleJ]

I've been casting and coating the Lee 340gr .457 boolit, then lubing it and sizing it down to .452 to shoot from my Taurus Raging Judge Magnum 454 Casull. It works fine, but it's a lot of work. I recently bought a Lee 255 .452 SWC mold, cast em, coated em, lubed em, and sized em to .452. Slightly less work, but still a bit. Problem I got is this:
https://drive.google.com/uc?id=1H3xqaiKAsjJYUzImKj4v7oJDK-LTNFp7
As you can see, those three boolits went through very sideways at 25 feet. Some made perfect circles, but about half did this.
Here's the odd part, there's no appreciable leading in the bore. Some light streaks, but I expected that these were not engaging the rifling and I'd be scrubbing lead for hours. There's also some sparkly debris in there, which I must assume is the HiTek coating. A couple passes with a brush and the bore was looking pretty good.
What I'd like to do now is size the next batch to .454 and try them out, however my Redding die set will not allow this. It's supposed to load 454 and 45C, but even at .452 I'm having a bit of a struggle to get the case and boolit into the sizing die. I've tried at .454, and boolits were getting destroyed.
I'm stumped, any ideas?

[vzerone]

I've been casting and coating the Lee 340gr .457 boolit, then lubing it and sizing it down to .452 to shoot from my Taurus Raging Judge Magnum 454 Casull. It works fine, but it's a lot of work. I recently bought a Lee 255 .452 SWC mold, cast em, coated em, lubed em, and sized em to .452. Slightly less work, but still a bit. Problem I got is this:
https://drive.google.com/uc?id=1H3xqaiKAsjJYUzImKj4v7oJDK-LTNFp7
As you can see, those three boolits went through very sideways at 25 feet. Some made perfect circles, but about half did this.
Here's the odd part, there's no appreciable leading in the bore. Some light streaks, but I expected that these were not engaging the rifling and I'd be scrubbing lead for hours. There's also some sparkly debris in there, which I must assume is the HiTek coating. A couple passes with a brush and the bore was looking pretty good.
What I'd like to do now is size the next batch to .454 and try them out, however my Redding die set will not allow this. It's supposed to load 454 and 45C, but even at .452 I'm having a bit of a struggle to get the case and boolit into the sizing die. I've tried at .454, and boolits were getting destroyed.
I'm stumped, any ideas?

Redding's are tight. I had a set of 45C dies and sent them back to the factory to open up the seating die. Most dies are geared to jacketed bullet loading, but Redding's are very tight. Otherwise very good dies.

[Michael J. Spangler]

I've been casting and coating the Lee 340gr .457 boolit, then lubing it and sizing it down to .452 to shoot from my Taurus Raging Judge Magnum 454 Casull. It works fine, but it's a lot of work. I recently bought a Lee 255 .452 SWC mold, cast em, coated em, lubed em, and sized em to .452. Slightly less work, but still a bit. Problem I got is this:
https://drive.google.com/uc?id=1H3xqaiKAsjJYUzImKj4v7oJDK-LTNFp7
As you can see, those three boolits went through very sideways at 25 feet. Some made perfect circles, but about half did this.
Here's the odd part, there's no appreciable leading in the bore. Some light streaks, but I expected that these were not engaging the rifling and I'd be scrubbing lead for hours. There's also some sparkly debris in there, which I must assume is the HiTek coating. A couple passes with a brush and the bore was looking pretty good.
What I'd like to do now is size the next batch to .454 and try them out, however my Redding die set will not allow this. It's supposed to load 454 and 45C, but even at .452 I'm having a bit of a struggle to get the case and boolit into the sizing die. I've tried at .454, and boolits were getting destroyed.
I'm stumped, any ideas?

Load a dummy and pull the bullet. Check the diameter after being loaded. Maybe the crimp is too tight and sizing down your bullet. Too soft of an alloy getting squished down under neck tensions? If the dies are made for jacketed then they probably have a lot of neck tension going on. Maybe use a Lyman M die for a proper neck tension for cast.

[DougGuy]

It won't matter what you size to since boolits are exiting the front of the cylinder at throat diameter. Find out what the throats are, that's the size that the cylinder is delivering the boolits to the bore.

Will a .452" boolit go into the cylinder throats from the front with finger pressure?

[Larry Gibson]

What velocity is the 255 bullet?

[jcren]

I see this with my 45 carbine when I push a soft alloy too hard. No leading, but 200 grain swc will tumble. Soft enough to tilt on the rifling? Boolits with longer bearing surface work fine with the soft alloy.

[RobS]

Looks to me that the boolit is too small as it is traveling down the barrel. If you have slugged your bore and know .452" is proper diameter for the barrel then I suspect the boolit is being swaged down either in the reloading process (pull a loaded round and measure base of boolit) or possibly by too tight of cylinder throats.

[ThaDoubleJ]

Chronograph was showing about 2K. Alloy is wheel weights with a splash of tin, dropped in water. I'll measure throats and pulled boolits and such and get back to you all, thanks.

[kens]

Per the OP, and last post:
Are you getting a 340gr bullet to chronograph @ 2,000fps out of a revolver pistol ???
Please advise.

[ThaDoubleJ]

The 255s are doing about 2K, the 340s I've only run up to about 1300.

[Edward429451]

The 255s are doing about 2K, the 340s I've only run up to about 1300.

You're gettin' nigh 200 with a 255?! Wow, that's sizzling. With what powder? :cbpour:

[Larry Gibson]

The 255s are doing about 2K, the 340s I've only run up to about 1300.

Way to fast for that PB cast bullet. Slow them down to 1200 +/- fps and they shoul do well. If you want faster than like 2000 fps then a GC'd bullet is best to use.

[ThaDoubleJ]

Using AA9, don't think I'm burning it all, either. I was a bit surprised at that speed as well, maybe I do just need to go to a heavier boolit and slow them down. Think a 300 PB would do?

[ThaDoubleJ]

After mulling it over a bit, maybe using the 340s for both my 458 SOCOM and the 454 Casull isn't that bad of an idea. It's been working so far, although the accuracy in my 458 is ****, like 8 MOA. I lose the lube groove when I size them down to .452, but they're coated anyway, so it's just holding the Alox that I use during the sizing process. I wouldn't mind a 350gr truncated cone, but I'm not sure who makes a mold like that.

[rr2241tx]

I had a similar problem with a 45 Colt Rifle. NOE 454-255-RF(GC) and 454-255-SWC fixed that. Try a Keith style SWC and you’ll be making round holes in no time.

[mdi]

Did I read the OP right? Cast, coat, lube, size? I have sized after coating but never any lube of any kind on my PCed/coated bullets. Why lubing coated bullets?

[OS OK]

Lube? I assume he means lubing the PC'd casts to push them through the Lee sizer? And...sizing down from .457" before they were PC'd?

If the sizer is a Lee push through and you are loosing the lube grooves too...is all that Pb & PC being pushed down below the base of the cast and forming an uneven ragged skirt?
If so...are you loading & shooting them that way?

That material is going somewhere...are the bases square and flat or not?

[therealhitman]

Way to fast for that PB cast bullet. Slow them down to 1200 +/- fps and they shoul do well. If you want faster than like 2000 fps then a GC'd bullet is best to use.

Yes, this. Larry da man.

[Edward429451]

I had a similar problem with a 45 Colt Rifle. NOE 454-255-RF(GC) and 454-255-SWC fixed that. Try a Keith style SWC and you’ll be making round holes in no time.


That's the first thing I went out and bought was that 255 gr Keith boolit mould, after I got my mdl. 83. I've been happy ever since.

[ThaDoubleJ]

I still lube my coated boolits. I don't trust my ability to coat yet, I keep having problems with HiTek. They also say not to size prior to coating, so yes, I cast/coat/alox/size .457-.454-.452.
My bases still seem flat after sizing, but I've never really looked that closely.
The Lee 452-252 is a Keith style boolit. I've tried the 340s at .454, but the Redding seating die wants nothing to do with that, I may talk to Redding about it, see what they think.

[OS OK]

I ask about the bases because I once sized some .452 X 200g. L-RNF's that were oval in shape, caused from a tiny bit of Pb on the face of the mould.
I believe I measured several at .460"...started to throw them back into the pot and for some reason went ahead and sized directly to .4525" just to see if they would size easily...without a bit of Hornady's 'One Shot' lubricant they pushed harder than usual, but with the lube they sized easily.

What I did notice is that the sizing pushed material from the bottom drive band lower than the base and formed a ragged skirt partially around the circumference. When I sat the cast on it's base it was noticeably crooked from that extended skirt. They went directly back to the pot but I'm quite sure that if I had loaded them they wouldn't have been any part of a group those rounds shot, they would have been out of group but don't know how far...kinda wished I had gone ahead and shot them to see what would happen.
What is it they say about 'hindsight'.?. "It's 20/20"!

[Messy bear]

Most likely way too fast for that plain base little guy. Slow them down if you can or use another boolit.

[mdi]

PCed and Hi-Tek bullets are not meant to be lubed. Who knows what effect lube has on Hi-Tek bullets, could cause skidding? Try some bullets without lubing.

[OS OK]

PCed and Hi-Tek bullets are not meant to be lubed. Who knows what effect lube has on Hi-Tek bullets, could cause skidding? Try some bullets without lubing.

What, exactly...is skidding?

[Grmps]

I still lube my coated boolits. I don't trust my ability to coat yet, I keep having problems with HiTek. They also say not to size prior to coating, so yes, I cast/coat/alox/size .457-.454-.452.


"I don't trust my ability to coat yet"
PC , knock off all excess powder PC can add up to .005 to the diameter, HiTek around .001, bake 15 min @ 400° in a preheated oven. After bollits are cool, hammer the bollit flat. If there is no chipping/flaking they are good.
https://i.imgur.com/w2mPngm.jpg

There are several Hi-Tek threads that can help you with your Hi-Tek coating problems. Check the threads or PM me, I'd be glad to help.

[OS OK]

Boy! GRMPS...You really got mad at those innocent little boolits...what did they ever do to you?

[ThaDoubleJ]

I've lubed every coated boolit I've ever fired, including ones that I purchased already HiTek'd. These are the first ones to ever under-perform, the rest just went faster. Here's my most recent failure at HiTeking, first time I've failed the smash test, I usually just coat too thick and lumpy.
https://drive.google.com/uc?id=0BzfwlWsoZaPxaTZINno0WXJ3dlk

[rr2241tx]

I still lube my coated boolits. I don't trust my ability to coat yet, I keep having problems with HiTek. They also say not to size prior to coating, so yes, I cast/coat/alox/size .457-.454-.452.
My bases still seem flat after sizing, but I've never really looked that closely.
The Lee 452-252 is a Keith style boolit. I've tried the 340s at .454, but the Redding seating die wants nothing to do with that, I may talk to Redding about it, see what they think.

Have you measured those Lee bullets? I sent tw of those molds back because they were .462” and could not be sized to .452-.454” without dmajor league distortion.

[mdi]

"Bullet skidding" is when a bullet does not grab the rifling and "skids" down the barrel. Normally leaves leading. Often from too soft alloy driven a bit too fast.

[OS OK]

Yeah...sorta, but if what you describe was going on...that Pb that was stripped by the lands would look like a junkyard in there and the next subsequent rounds would iron it down to where it would be atrocious. A continuous depositing.
In a case like that I doubt seriously that the lube used to size had any influence at all.

I would define skidding as the cast engraving with wider tracks than the lands measure, because it will not spin up quick enough, too soft to grab the lands and start...allowing gas cutting through that wider land track on the cast...there's the reason for Pb depositing from stem to stern in a barrel that has no defects.

I think...

[Oklahoma Rebel]

now, I have a question, you said your pistol is a Taurus raging judge? does that mean it can chamber 410's? and if so, does that mean the rifling starts either 2.5 or 3"s down the barrel. that's how the 45-410 bond arms are. just a thought

[ThaDoubleJ]

241, I didn't measure them pre-sizing, but running them through the .452 sizing die was cake and they barely changed, and they do come out at .452 now.

Rebel, yes, it chambers 410 bore, 45 Colt, and 454 Casull. The "freebore" if you will is like an inch before the forcing cone. There is a step down in the cylinder that mates up with the case mouth of the 454, which I need to measure for someone above that requested it. It should be a sloppy, inaccurate, terrible range toy. For some reason though, it's surprisingly accurate, all things considered, and not bad to shoot as it weighs 4.5#.

[454PB]

You are pushing them too fast. In addition, I learned early on that AA#9 (and other slow burning ball powders) will hang fire and squib when used behind light for caliber boolits in the .454 Casull. That Lee boolit is a good one and shoots very well in all my .454's, but you need to use a faster burning powder and keep velocity below 1300 to 1400 fps.

[mdi]

Yeah...sorta, but if what you describe was going on...that Pb that was stripped by the lands would look like a junkyard in there and the next subsequent rounds would iron it down to where it would be atrocious. A continuous depositing.
In a case like that I doubt seriously that the lube used to size had any influence at all.

I would define skidding as the cast engraving with wider tracks than the lands measure, because it will not spin up quick enough, too soft to grab the lands and start...allowing gas cutting through that wider land track on the cast...there's the reason for Pb depositing from stem to stern in a barrel that has no defects.

I think...

Rather than ask me, do a search. "Bullet skidding" is a common term used often on this site. No need for me to defend the term nor how it is used. Just ask some casters with knowledge of how cast bullets preform in rifled barrels...

[OS OK]

I get what your saying, I just can't relate to the term 'skidding' when it comes to this situation. When I hear the term 'skidding' I immediately think of a driver slamming on the brakes and see a long track of rubber laid down on the road...it just doesn't compute, I think it is misleading and implies that the entire cast blew through the barrel and stripped all the Pb off the entire area engaging the height of the lands, leaving that stripped Pb behind the cast to blow out of the barrel behind it leaving some that vaporized and chilled onto the interior and gets ironed in on subsequent shots...I guess I have an inflexible imagination or something worse?

It's Pb to soft to grab onto the lands and start the initial RPM wind-up immediately. The lands impart an incredible amount of torque on a very thin layer of the cast. I would imagine that if we could catch our rounds somehow without nose damage we might see that many harder Pb blends might have some degree of wider land tracking in that first part of the engraving on the front drive band but since the tinsel strength is adequate the cast is able to track the land efficiently (hang onto the track) after a little further engraving, not widening the land engraving all the way to the base and preventing subsequent gassing.
Who knows...I wish there was a technical name that better described it in my limited understanding...I keep seeing tire tracks!

[mdi]

I didn't coin the term. If it's misleading to some (not me, but I'm a lifelong machinist/mechanic and knew right away what the term meant), then perhaps they should start a movement to standardise terminology for bullet (boolit?) casting. BTW "skidding" is a term commonly used for any two surfaces rubbing together without much effect on each other. Cutting tools can "skid" when improperly adjusted or dull...

[ThaDoubleJ]

Well, after a pretty thorough search of the internet, there's no such boolit mold out there as what I'm after. There's a guy on the 458 forum that had one made by mountain moulds, it's a TC bore rider with grease grooves and a gas check. Can be seen here: http://458socomforums.com/index.php?topic=3086.0
The post is old, and no updates were made as to performance.
It seems my best bet will be to have Accurate Molds make something for me, so hopefully you all can help me design it.
Needs to feed in an AR platform. So far I've had no feeding issues with the Lee 457-340 or the Hornady FTX, so a TC nose should work great, and they look cool. Meplat size? It's just for targets and steel and maybe some fruit.
Gas check seems to be the way to go.
Real grease grooves? Grease "ridges" like Lee uses? In the 458 coating will be necessary due to the gas system, but I might be able to get away with just lubing in the 454. If that's the case, the grooves will need to be deep enough to hold enough lube after I've sized down by .006 or so.
350gr is my target weight. Accurate says I need to provide the dimensions that will create that volume. No idea how to do that other than copy a round/flat design and make it slightly longer.

Help me spend some money boolit masters.

PS - Mountain Molds has a pretty awesome boolit designer on the website.

[ThaDoubleJ]

Think I'm gonna go with Mountain Molds and their designer, but I'm pretty short on designing boolit experience, any pointers? Going TC with a long nose and slightly small meplat, gas check, lube grooves, 350gr.

Gonna do slightly smaller bearing to groove ratio since both guns are slow twist and once I size to .452 I want somewhere to put lube.

What else should I take into account?

[ThaDoubleJ]

I think for now I'll just keep using the 340 Lee sized down to .452 in the Casull, but I still need a mold for the 458 SOCOM. I went on Mountain Molds and basically made a lead copy of Hornady's FTX 325, with a 50% meplat and a gas check shank. Should I do a shank for Gator checks or Hornady checks? How about the crimp groove, do I really need one, or should I delete it and just use my FCD to close up the case mouth after seating?