light load for 357

[LUCKYDAWG13]

I'm looking for a light 357 load just a target load and trying to keep the noise level down and no I do not want to use 38 brass if possible would like to
stay under 900 FPS

[JBinMN]

I have some 357 that I loaded light with Red Dot for the missus to shoot with her hand issues. I also tested I was in the middle of testing them & had to leave before finishing the .357 tests, and as I forgot the chrony on that trip, I do not have that data, but I am pretty sure they are below 900fps.

The 38 loads were most accurate at 2.2, 2.5 gr. Red Dot with both 147gr. WCs & then were most accurate at 2.5 & 2.9gr. Red Dot with 158gr SWCs, IIRC. ( I am not down in the reloading room so I am just going off the top of my head, but will check when I go down there later & correct here if I am mistaken for some reason. Might be the other way around, but I know that 2.5gr is the load I think will be the one I use from now on for the missus.) These were shot off sandbags on a homemade tripod, at 15 yds, as I do not have a "bench" where I shoot.

I will try to finish testing the 38 & the 357s & use the chrony this up coming week, if I get the time. I will post the .357 load data here with the chrony data as well, if ya want me to do so for you.

G'Luck!
:)

[Hickory]

2.7 grs of Bullseye.

[dannyd]

Any 38 special and add 10%

[LUCKYDAWG13]

I have some 357 that I loaded light with Red Dot for the missus to shoot with her hand issues. I also tested I was in the middle of testing them & had to leave before finishing the .357 tests, and as I forgot the chrony on that trip, I do not have that data, but I am pretty sure they are below 900fps.

The 38 loads were most accurate at 2.2, 2.5 gr. Red Dot with both 147gr. WCs & then were most accurate at 2.5 & 2.9gr. Red Dot with 158gr SWCs, IIRC. ( I am not down in the reloading room so I am just going off the top of my head, but will check when I go down there later & correct here if I am mistaken for some reason. Might be the other way around, but I know that 2.5gr is the load I think will be the one I use from now on for the missus.) These were shot off sandbags on a homemade tripod, at 15 yds, as I do not have a "bench" where I shoot.

I will try to finish testing the 38 & the 357s & use the chrony this up coming week, if I get the time. I will post the .357 load data here with the chrony data as well, if ya want me to do so for you.

G'Luck!
:)

That would be Awesome if you would I did stock up on red dot and Bullseye thanks All

[JBinMN]

That would be Awesome if you would I did stock up on red dot and Bullseye thanks All

Sure. I was going to do it anyway. BTW, if ya did not know, Red Dot data is about the same as Bullseye & 700X also. So if ya have those powders, they should be good to use also with the numbers I am using. I just went and looked at the .357mag handgun loads in the 49th Lymans & BE is shown to run around 4.8gr. min to 7.0gr max. for 155gr. linotype. and 160 gr is 4.9-6.9gr. (both of which are close enough to 158gr. SWC, but I am using the lesser powder amount for my calculations for reduced loads for safety reasons.)
4.6-7.0gr. for 150(close enough to 148gr) linotype for my WCs., so I can use those same numbers for my calculations also.

The loads I made up were 3.7 through 4.1gr. (approx 20% up to 10% of min. load of 4.6) for BE with those 148gr. WCs & the 158gr. SWCs. thus Red Dot would be about the same..

Just so ya know I am doing these experiments with a lot of different calibers using Red Dot. .380/9mm/38sp./357mag/44mag & 45ACP just so the missus can shoot any she wants without issue. Can't say they "bark" any less, but they do not kick all that bad in our estimation. She can shoot full loads, but she won't shoot as much unless I reduce the loads for her. I like her going along, so I am trying to help her out. "It is to both our advantage for me to do this reduced loads stuff", is what I am saying. LOL ;) Plus, Red Dot is relatively less expensive than some other powders right now for me where I get it, and ya don't use much, so I like that too.
;)

Anyway, I will try to do the testing of the 357 this week if I can. Weather & some possible other things are the main factors. I will post the results though since ya said you would like to see them. I use a Cladwell so it keeps track of the info for me & I can just copy/paste to here. ( This data is for some 9mm experiments for another member here, but it is an example of the data I shared there and the data for the 357 test will look about the same in format.: http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?345777-Soft-shooting-fast-powder-for-heavy-bullets-in-9mm-147gr-158gr&p=4187098&viewfull=1#post4187098 . You can go look if ya like & see how the data looks there if ya want to do it.)

:)

[Mauser48]

I use 3.4 grains of 700x with a 158 grain bullet in 38 brass. Hodgdon lists that as a max powder charge in 38 cases and a minimum powder charge in 357 cases.

[BOSCHLOPER]

Don't forget Trail Boss.

[JBinMN]

Don't forget Trail Boss.

Don't think I would reduce those loads though, getting pretty small in amounts for that case volume & it may cause issues. Not sure & I don't use TBoss, but it sure is an economical powder for that caliber. Thanks for sharing the suggestion, BTW. I have not seen it around the stores I check, but I think I may order somenext time I make a primer/powder order, just to check it out.
:)

Here is the data from hodgdon themselves, and the link to go check is below.:
:)

BULLET WEIGHT
158 GR. CAST LSWC
Starting Loads Maximum Loads
Powder Bullet Diam. C.O.L. Grs. Vel. (ft/s) Pressure Grs. Vel. (ft/s)Pressure
Trail Boss .357" 1.610" 3.2 754 16,500 CUP 4.2 865 20,400 CUP

Source: http://www.hodgdonreloading.com/data/pistol

[Low Budget Shooter]

LuckyDawg,
158 grain bullet over 4.0 grains Red Dot in 357 brass yielded very good results for me in the velocity range you mentioned. Below is data from my 19-3 6" Barrel:
4.0 gr Red Dot average 823 fps
4.5 gr Red Dot average 901 fps
5.0 gr Red Dot average 978 fps
If you want to use Bullseye instead, velocities will be similar for like charges. Under a 158 gr bullet, Bullseye is about 20 fps faster than Red Dot in 2" barrel, about 20 fps slower in 6" barrel, and very close to the same in 4" barrel, at least in my tests.

[LUCKYDAWG13]

Thank you all for your help I do appreciate it

[daleraby]

Don't forget Trail Boss.

That was my thought as well.

[Hick]

4.0 grains of Titegroup with just about anything (I use it with 358156 SWC, 358140 SWC, Hornady 140 grain Cowboy bullets and a few others). They all run about 900 fps or just a little more with nice gentle recoil and fine accuracy.

[derek45]

3.5CLAYS or 4.5win231/HP38 with 125gr

[Larry Gibson]

Any 38 special and add 10%

OP doesn't say with what bullet(?). dannyd's answer is correct except I would add to use the Bullseye or Red Dot the OP is going to get. For years I've used 3 gr BE under 150 - 158 gr cast for such loads.

[LUCKYDAWG13]

OP doesn't say with what bullet(?). dannyd's answer is correct except I would add to use the Bullseye or Red Dot the OP is going to get. For years I've used 3 gr BE under 150 - 158 gr cast for such loads.

yes i did forget to say what bullet I have a few boxes of some Copper Plated Bullets from X-Treme 158gr SWC that i wish to use in my 686 6" barrel a friend has a
indoor range in his house so i don't need or want magnum speed or noise This is why I'm looking for a light load and yes i do have Bullseye / reddot
thank you all for your suggestions the load of 4.5 / 5gr of reddot look about were i want to be

[JBinMN]

yes i did forget to say what bullet I have a few boxes of some Copper Plated Bullets from X-Treme 158gr SWC that i wish to use in my 686 6" barrel a friend has a
indoor range in his house so i don't need or want magnum speed or noise This is why I'm looking for a light load and yes i do have Bullseye / reddot
thank you all for your suggestions the load of 4.5 / 5gr of reddot look about were i want to be

Glad that you have found what ya wanted & decided.
:)
That range should put ya into the lower end of the suggested min. to max. spread from the Lyman 49th for cast in that weight range(155-160gr) & since you are using plated, at 4.5-5.0gr. R.Dot , I think you will be around 30-35% below min for a jacketed 158gr. (using the BE or RD), but still fine if you believe that plated is good at cast load min/max ranges.
:)


I am still going to do the reduced loads I mentioned before, since I want them for the reason(s) I explained earlier.
:)

G'Luck!
:)

[LUCKYDAWG13]

JBinMN pleases post your test results I would think that they should work for me as well using plated I'm intrested in your findings

[JBinMN]

Sure. Likely Wed. still, as I had planned. Look like the weather may cooperate. As long as it is not wet & windy or both. I will go then.
:)

[BAGTIC]

I'm looking for a light 357 load just a target load and trying to keep the noise level down and no I do not want to use 38 brass if possible would like to
stay under 900 FPS

900 fps in what length barrel?

[LUCKYDAWG13]

out of a S&W 686 -3 with a 6" barrel I bought it back in the early 90's shot it a few hundred times and put it away I just pulled it out of the safe last week with
a new interest in it getting tired of picking up brass

[Grmps]

this site has a lot of lite loads
http://www.gmdr.com/lever/lowveldata.htm

[LUCKYDAWG13]

this site has a lot of lite loads
http://www.gmdr.com/lever/lowveldata.htm

Thanks for the link I appreciate it

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

I was experimenting with weak 357 Mag loads, back when I first started casting...I don't remember the specifics, so I had to look it up in my books. I would have guessed, off the top of my head, that I used the Lee 358-125 RF boolit...but I would have been wrong, I used a Heavy SWC? I wonder why?

Anyway,
here are the specifics: I used a NOE copy of the lyman 358429, that weighed 175gr with a alloy of 50% COWW and 50% Pure. I used 4.0 gr of Bullseye and my notes say they were about 800fps, shot in a 5" S&W Mod 27.


PS: with 4 gr Bullseye in a 357 case, watch very carefully, so you don't double or triple charge the case.

[LUCKYDAWG13]

Thanks John for the reminder of a dubbel charge

[Grmps]

http://www.handloads.com/loaddata/default.asp?Caliber=357%20Magnum&Weight=All&type=Handgun

[robg]

Lee 158 gr pb boolits work well with 7gr true blue for a medium load in my win94 trapper.

[JBinMN]

Gonna try tomorrow afternoon or Wed. morning, but Thurs is now more likely, due to the weather forecast changes. This is our forecast as of right now.:
-------

Tuesday - A slight chance of drizzle. Widespread fog, mainly before 9am. Otherwise, cloudy, with a high near 47. South wind around 10 mph.

Tuesday Night - A 40 percent chance of rain before midnight. Cloudy, then gradually becoming partly cloudy, with a low around 36. South southeast wind around 10 mph becoming west after midnight.

Wednesday - Mostly sunny, with a high near 40. Breezy, with a west northwest wind 10 to 15 mph increasing to 15 to 20 mph in the afternoon. Winds could gust as high as 30 mph.

Wednesday Night - Partly cloudy, with a low around 24. West northwest wind 10 to 15 mph becoming northwest 5 to 10 mph after midnight.

Thursday - Partly sunny, with a high near 39. Northeast wind 5 to 15 mph becoming southeast in the morning.

-------------
Not going to do it if the wind can knock the chrony over, &/or it is gonna get wet, for obvious reasons. I will do it though, as soon as the weather & time allow. I will post the results, when I have them.
:)

[LUCKYDAWG13]

No problem I'm in ILL have the same weather as you this week

[JBinMN]

Went out this afternoon, even though it was colder than I liked & I had no gloves to wear when shooting. Plain forgot them. It was overcast with a wind from 10-15 SE, so I went up into the woods a bit, to block it. I decided to start with the 4.1gr. loads first then work down. Bad thing was that I forgot to turn the START button on for the first shots, so that spread has only 2 entries. But what is there should give ya an idea anyway. The rest went pretty well. (I made up 7 rounds for the 4.1gr. & 6 rounds for the rest each. (31 total - one was supposed to be a test first to see how the Chrony worked at that temp. but as I said, I forgot to turn it on.))

There was one or two instances where the Chrony did not pick up a shot & I think there was 1 or 2 errors also. I would have to go look at the test results again, as I just scanned them quickly before I posted them here. The tests are below. You folks will have to draw your own conclusions from the data. I will draw mine.

The only thing I will say is they are definitely reduced loads with minimal recoil, as far as I am concerned. They may not be what you, or any others want, but they are reduced my missus & her hand issues & I am sharing for those who want to know about such loads and may be interested in trying them out themselves..

NOTE - Anyone who loads & shoots these loads is doing so, At Their Own Risk. I hold no responsibility to others who may try this sort of load range. It will be on the reloader that makes these loads & shoots them, if there is any issue.

Here is the test data from today:
-------------------------------------------------------
Set: 12
Created: 16/11/17 16:15
Description: 357M TL358-158gr SWC 4.1gr Red Dot
Notes 1: Ruger LCR snubnose Win. SPM primer
Notes 2: *I*cases
Distance to Chrono(FT): 10.00
Ballistic Coefficient: 1.000
Bullet Weight(gr): 158.00
Temp: 31 °F
BP: 30.10 inHg
Altitude: 0.00
# FPS FT-LBS PF
2 785 216.23 124.03
1 790 218.99 124.82
Average: 787.5 FPS
SD: 3.5 FPS
Min: 785 FPS
Max: 790 FPS
Spread: 5 FPS
Shot/sec: 0.2
True MV: 788 FPS
Group Size (in): 0.00

--------------------------------------------
Set: 13
Created: 16/11/17 16:19
Description: 357M TL358-158gr SWC 4.0gr Red Dot
Notes 1: Ruger LCR snubnose Win. SPM primers
Notes 2: *I* cartridges
Distance to Chrono(FT): 10.00
Ballistic Coefficient: 1.000
Bullet Weight(gr): 158.00
Temp: 31 °F
BP: 30.10 inHg
Altitude: 0.00
# FPS FT-LBS PF
6 767 206.43 121.19
5 775 210.75 122.45
4 763 204.28 120.55
3 795 221.77 125.61
2 800 224.57 126.40
1 781 214.03 123.40
Average: 780.2 FPS
SD: 14.9 FPS
Min: 763 FPS
Max: 800 FPS
Spread: 37 FPS
Shot/sec: 0.1
True MV: 781 FPS
Group Size (in): 0.00

--------------------------------------------
Set: 14
Created: 16/11/17 16:22
Description: 357M TL358-158gr SWC 3.9gr Red Dot
Notes 1: Ruger LCR snubnose WIN SPM primers
Notes 2: *I*cartridges
Distance to Chrono(FT): 10.00
Ballistic Coefficient: 1.000
Bullet Weight(gr): 158.00
Temp: 31 °F
BP: 30.10 inHg
Altitude: 0.00
# FPS FT-LBS PF
5 718 180.89 113.44
4 745 194.75 117.71
3 698 170.96 110.28
2 689 166.58 108.86
1 776 211.30 122.61
Average: 725.2 FPS
SD: 35.6 FPS
Min: 689 FPS
Max: 776 FPS
Spread: 87 FPS
Shot/sec: 0.1
True MV: 726 FPS
Group Size (in): 0.00

[1 shot did not register at all out of the 6 in this set. I do not know why.]
--------------------------------------------
Set: 15
Created: 16/11/17 16:24
Description: 357M TL358-158gr SWC 3.8gr Red Dot
Notes 1: Ruger LCR snubnose WIN SPM primers
Notes 2: *I*cartridges
Distance to Chrono(FT): 10.00
Ballistic Coefficient: 1.000
Bullet Weight(gr): 158.00
Temp: 31 °F
BP: 30.10 inHg
Altitude: 0.00
# FPS FT-LBS PF
6 740 192.15 116.92
5 687 165.61 108.55
4 758 201.61 119.76
3 679 161.78 107.28
2 671 157.99 106.02
1 770 208.04 121.66
Average: 717.5 FPS
SD: 43.5 FPS
Min: 671 FPS
Max: 770 FPS
Spread: 99 FPS
Shot/sec: 0.1
True MV: 718 FPS
Group Size (in): 0.00

--------------------------------------------
Set: 16
Created: 16/11/17 16:27
Description: 357 mag TL358-158gr SWC 3.7gr. Red Dot
Notes 1: Ruger LCR snubnose WIN SPM primers
Notes 2: *I* cartridges
Distance to Chrono(FT): 10.00
Ballistic Coefficient: 1.000
Bullet Weight(gr): 158.00
Temp: 31 °F
BP: 30.10 inHg
Altitude: 0.00
# FPS FT-LBS PF
4 658 151.92 103.96
3 688 166.09 108.70
2 ERROR 3
1 742 193.19 117.24
Average: 696.0 FPS
SD: 42.6 FPS
Min: 658 FPS
Max: 742 FPS
Spread: 84 FPS
Shot/sec: 0.0
True MV: 697 FPS
Group Size (in): 0.00

[2 shots did not register at all out of the 6 in this set. I do not know why.]
--------------------------------------------

I will mention that I bolded the best SD( Standard Deviation) in test #13(2nd test run). It is the best of the lot for SD reading. I will have to retry the 4.1gr in test #12(1st test run) to see where that one is, sometime in the future.

BTW,... I am very particular when doing these tests & load these individually & double check the amount of powder to prevent overcharge, plus I seat & crimp the bullet immediately to prevent double or even triple load overcharges. The volume of these loads is very small, compared to the total volume of a 357 mag case. It would be quite easy to overcharge if one gets distracted.

I warn anyone who does load up these loads to use extreme caution when doing so. If you are using other than a single stage press, like I did, one bullet/boolit at a time, then I will also mention that I think even more caution may be in order that one does not get distracted during the time loading the powder to prevent an over powder limit. Although I would think that since you are seating right after the powder drop step, it may not be a problem, but if one gets distracted at the time of throwing the powder for some reason & double charges before seating there is likely gonna be some issue(s)...
The doubling of even the minimum I used, will be over Max. for that Red Dot powder & the 158gr weight boolit I used.

G'Luck to ya! Be safe!
:)

------------------------------------
P.S.- I do not shoot for accuracy when using the chrony. I do not want to think about that part of my testing, as I do not want to hit the chrony. So, I make a run of the 2 sets that have the best SD & then test them again at a later time for accuracy. That is how "I" do things... YMMV... ;) In case anyone wonders...The area covered on this target was about the size of my hand with one in the 3" Bull & the others to the left. The target was at approx. 15 - 20 yds away from my sandbagged "tripod". I was concentrating on being in the center of the chrony more than on the target. Using a snubnose and not concentrating on the Bull I thought it was just fine. ;) Once again, YMMV.

[P Flados]

Double post, see # 32

[P Flados]

With a big case and a small dose of Red Dot you get a high percentage of empty space.

In addition to thinking about low SD, you probably need to think about powder position.

I ran tests on both Promo (lower cost version of Red Dot), and a powder that was promoted as consistent regardless of powder position.

With 2.8 gr of Promo behind a Lee 110 RN in a "extra low recoil" 38 special load fired out of a 3 inch LCRx, I got a 22% increase (636 fps vs 519 fps) in velocity with "barrel tipped up" just prior to firing as compared to "barrel tipped down".

The other powder, TightGroup, was actually a little worse with a 24% increase (683 fps vs 55 fps with 2.5 grs of powder).

I did similar testing in a 4.2 inch SP-101 in 327 where I got similar results.

Surprisingly, these loads all shoot pretty good with no vertical stringing even when I make no effort at getting a consistent powder position.

[JBinMN]

Yes, I agree that powder position can play a part. Good that ya mentioned it.
:)

When I was testing, I was sitting down with the test rounds to my left on the ground & the Iphone for the data readings sitting on an ammo can to my right. The revolver was loaded pointing down at the ground & brought up to level at the sandbag (chest high while sitting). So I would be starting in a powder Fwd(boolit end) position, due to the handgun pointing first down while loading, then brought to level as I set on the sandbags. Once lined up thru chrony & on target, as I shoot I try to keep positioned on the sandbag without lifting or lowering the firearm. Thus, it is likely that the powder is "jolted" by the recoil & does not stay at Fwd(boolit end) position but migrates towards center. In these tests I did not ever point the firearm up, so there should be no reading from powder in the Rear(primer end) position.

Most of the time I practice shooting, I am coming from lower holster(hip) out to low ready or pointing to the target to shoot. Muzzle starts down, then transitioning to level coming up to target. With a shoulder holster,then out & either to a low ready or transition to level to shoot. Both keep the muzzle down & then progress to level. Rarely going to high ready, then back to level to shot. So the powder is likely going to be Fwd or migrating towards level. Even on a reload, this situation usually remains the same.

I am not sure how many folks use the high ready to go to level to shoot, and there are times I think it is appropriate depending on what someone is doing( "covering" & "moving" for example(s)). But, I am thinking that most folks use their firearm with muzzle pointing down, then bringing it up to level to shoot, so IMO, the tests having the powder Fwd to level is more likely to be translated to "real life", than powder to Rear to level. Of course I may be wrong, but that is how I see it right now.
:)

I would agree that it would make a more complete testing series to test with muzzle down and muzzle up both, and even keeping level if someone wanted to try it, but for these tests it was basically muzzle down to level.
:)

[Mr_Sheesh]

You could always add a little bit of kapok or dacron to these if powder positioning is critical (I do that in reduced rifle loads used for small game etc.) - Just a thought :)

[P Flados]

My post was really intended to be more along the lines of:

1. When using a chrono, care is needed in regard to powder position. Just one slip up with a gun repositioning can shift powder and cause that round to be 100 fps or more "out of the group".

2. You probably should test at least a few with both powder forward, and powder to the rear.

3. You prbobably should do some offhand testing to see if changing powder position causes vertical stringing.

FYI, I have tried filler a couple of times. It just never seem to improve accuracy at all for any of my guns.

[JBinMN]

You could always add a little bit of kapok or dacron to these if powder positioning is critical (I do that in reduced rifle loads used for small game etc.) - Just a thought :)

I have considered that & may do some testing for that in all of the loads I have tested for reduced loads in Red Dot, but I must locate a source for the filler. Even Cream of Wheat has crossed my mind with a paperthin "wad of cigaratte paper to hold them separate & avoid mixing has been thought about. I will do mor research before I go into that sort of testing.

Thanks for the mention of fillers though!
:)

[JBinMN]

My post was really intended to be more along the lines of:

1. When using a chrono, care is needed in regard to powder position. Just one slip up with a gun repositioning can shift powder and cause that round to be 100 fps or more "out of the group".

2. You probably should test at least a few with both powder forward, and powder to the rear.

3. You prbobably should do some offhand testing to see if changing powder position causes vertical stringing.

FYI, I have tried filler a couple of times. It just never seem to improve accuracy at all for any of my guns.

Points taken & Thanks! Although I do not think I had that much variance between shots(100fps) there was a bit of variance that I noted in review of the data. I do not have an explanation for that variance for sure, since I reloaded these carefully one at a time with no changes other than powder load amounts. I test in .1 gr. not .2 & I triple checked the powder weights each load. They were all crimped the same, and the cases were all the same once fired *I* brass.The only thing that I did not weigh was the boolits I used, but that difference should not have much effect on the tests, and I am pretty sure they were close enough each to the 158gr weight. I weighed 5 of them for comparison before starting just in curiosity with little difference in weight, & they all came from the same date of cast & same lead lot.
:)

BTW...I do know that it was only about 31 deg. F outside & that may have been a factor, but the rounds & revolver were all exposed to the same ambient temp. so I do not think that would be a factor to change anything in regard to variance between shots

Maybe on Monday if I have time, I will run some re-tests.... It is supposed to be in the upper 40's, but the forecast can change. Otherwise, I will be likely not to do anymore testing until next Spring. I will keep your points in mind if I do go out & try to do a series with both pointing up & pointing down first. I still think the powder will migrate , so I will have to test 3 times I think. With one test shaking the powder /handgun before each shot to spread the powder along the bottom of the case. That way, all of the positions should be accounted for.

I will do these tests just for the sake of testing, as the loads are within what "I" was looking for in regard to the missus hand issues & besides,they have shown thus far to not be within the parameter of 900 fps that the OP was searching for earlier, so the tests would be for my own use unless someone else is interested. I have not seen anyone say that they are, so I will likely keep the result for myself for future reference.

Thanks again for your suggestions..
:)

[Mr_Sheesh]

Dacron filler - Buy at fabric stores. Kapok - Get at the usual suspect auction place or the like. Not too hard to get :)

[JBinMN]

Dacron filler - Buy at fabric stores. Kapok - Get at the usual suspect auction place or the like. Not too hard to get :)

Thanks! The missus likes to sew things, so I will ask her to get some Dacron for me. I hope there are not different type of it. That will complicate things.. If I get some, I will try it.
;)

[Mr_Sheesh]

I think they just make different thicknesses of the woven batting on Dacron, thinner ones for warm quilts and the far thicker ones for Arctic conditions :) Kapok is a natural fiber, I bought about a cubic foot off yon auction place for something under $10, I am guessing that will last me a LONG time :) COW would raise pressures more, if you use it (I use it for fire forming though) where Dacron or Kapok just position the powder and are nearly weightless, in case anyone hasn't used those. Still in organization mode, close to starting some working up test loads soon - Looking forwards to it!