Cast Boolits and my CZ 527 V in 17 Hornet

[rhouser]

SITREP: I have begun testing with the 32gr NOE .172 PB bullet in my CZ 527 17H Hornet.

I have to admit that I am cheating here.

I was looking for aftermarket .17 custom bullet resources and found Reed's Ammunition & Research, LLC. I do not work for them and am not associated with them, so here is the link: http://shop.reedsammo.com/17-Cal-Bullets_c278.htm. They are selling .172 32gr PB and 27gr GC boolits by the 100.

I called them and confirmed that Reed's is selling bullets cast with NOE's .172 molds. These are the same molds I ordered last week and just got in. I admit to ordering 100 of each bullet from Reed's. I am claiming it is to serve as a benchmark for when I begin with my molds.

Back to test plan. I am going begin with Trail Boss and my magneto speed chronograph. I used the .173" .17 cal push-through die from NOE to "clean up" the edges on my purchased bullets (they came fully lubed). I have settled on a COAL of 1.631 using the Hornady comparator .17 cal insert (1.715 raw caliper measurement).

This morning I will take my first 32gr test loads to the range and chronograph them as well as grouping assessment. The JBM calculator says they should be stable down to 600 fps, so, I am hoping for a "no keyhole" test.

I will shoot TB at 1.0gr and 1.7gr (starting at the low end). I have already test fired the 1.0gr in the backyard. Noise is about like a high powered air rifle, but with a 32gr bullet. I picked the 1.7gr as a second point because of a reported success in a 527 with this bullet at this load and frankly, why not. I have a 4.0gr top limit per computing the case to bullet limit, so, I feel I am facing nothing dangerous.

Once I get these over a chronograph and onto paper, I will see where I should be going. I am looking for a non-explosive "dinner round" to add to my pile of 20gr VMAX j-words at 3700 fps. Don't blow up your dinner is a good saying for old guys.

With the long round nose 32gr boolits, they remind me of the MIL SURP 6.5x55 with the 156gr boolits on top. Now if they will just shoot.

thanks to all that make this forum great.

v/r rch

[17nut]

Been there done that with the exact same setup.
My luck ran out around 1900fps and it started to scatter bad.

Sent a couple of hundred to a friend in Texas and he uses them over 1grain of 700X for armadillos.

[Buzz64]

Armadillos...in Denmark...seen as far north as Emporia, KS but the didn’t have to swim much����

OOPS, didn’t see that you sent to TX, my bad😔

[Minerat]

This should be interesting. I have been pondering the same thing. May PC some?

[rhouser]

Back from the range with some interesting results.

1gr TB with the 32gr PB was 2 inches at 50 yards but my Magneto speed errored every shot when set on 11 for sensitivity. On normal, it didn't see a thing. I got an errored reading of 740 fps at one point.

1.6gr TB with the 32gr PB key-holed every bullet at 50 yards (5 rounds). Why would 1gr hit straight and 1.6 key-hole? I haven't got a clue.

Now for the fun part. At 25 yards with 1gr of TB I put 7 shots (all that I had left) into an honest to God dime sized group. it is 3" low using my 100 yard zero but dead on the vertical. I will load a bunch of these and just use my MOA hashmarks to correct for the holdover.

17nut, did your Texas contact say that he was getting effective kills (through and through) on an armadillo? Armadillos would be like shooting a varmint with body armor. Second question, what powder and loads were you using to get up to 1900 fps? I have only used the TB so far, and only the two loads. I do have a supply of SR-4759 which I use in a bunch of my bigger boolit loads.

Minerat, I agree with the PC idea. I see these in "lipstick" red (Harbor Freight Red). It adds a touch of color to your ammo box and also makes it clear as a powder designation. Separate colors for different loads.

thanks to all who responded.

v/r rch

[wmitty]

If you guys are casting and loading.17 boolits my hat is off to you! I thought casting.224’s were tough.

[fiberoptik]

Paper patches maybe?


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[17nut]

If you guys are casting and loading.17 boolits my hat is off to you! I thought casting.224’s were tough.

Yup, not much meat on that bone ;-)
Have to heat the mould constantly or it gets to cold.

Here with a 45 ACP

207947

[17nut]

17nut, did your Texas contact say that he was getting effective kills (through and through) on an armadillo? Armadillos would be like shooting a varmint with body armor. Second question, what powder and loads were you using to get up to 1900 fps? I have only used the TB so far, and only the two loads. I do have a supply of SR-4759 which I use in a bunch of my bigger boolit loads.
v/r rch


He shoots a 17VHA (4.6x30 necked down from .18 caliber) and uses 1grain of 700X for a good subsonic load. No through-thtough so they wont scatter into the neighbours garden. Kills them quite dead he told me, leprosy spreaders. Cast 94/3/3

I used Vihtavuori N105 (@ 4grains) to get to 1900fps (150000+ rpm)
Similar: Blue Dot, Longshot, WAP

[Minerat]

17nut,

I'm on the fence right now about casting for the 17 but have a questions. It seems that most factory loads are limited to 20-25 gr for the HH. How is that 32 gr NOE shooting? Is it considered "Heavy for Caliber"?

[17nut]

Noooo it's a no check bullet and you have to push it carefully or it will strip the rifling.
My loads was in 22LR territory and under 16kpsi

Trailboss is a very fast and agressive powder suited for light loads, not for finding max. speed.

As i said try: Blue Dot, Longshot, WAP from 2 to 4 grains. That will get you from slightly over supersonic to scatter.
Mind you 1900fps in a 1:9 barrel is 150000rpm and quite fast for a cast bullet.

[Minerat]

I think you misunderstood. I am only wondering if the 32 gr boolit shoots OK since the factory bullets are usually 8 to 12 grains lighter. Is it accurate enough to handle shooting tree rats at 22 LR ranges?

[17nut]

It's shorter than a 25grain V-MAX and weighs more so it's plenty stable even below 1000fps.

208177

[rhouser]

It's stable at 715 FPS (1gr Trailboss). In my CZ, the 32gr NOE with 1gr TB is grouping under an inch at up to 30 yards. The JBM calculator shows the 32gr NOE to be stable down to 600 fps (low as it goes).

I had to do some fiddling to get my chronograph to read the cast lead .17's. I called MagnetoSpeed customer service. They knew what steps I needed to take. Here is what I have so far.


1.0gr TB = 716 FPS AVG with 32gr NOE. In my CZ it is grouping sub moa at 30 yards and under.
2.0gr TB = 1230 FPS AVG with 32gr NOE. In my CZ this looks like a shotgun pattern at 50.
2.5gr TB = 1410 FPS AVG with 32gr NOE. In my CZ this is settling down nicely at 50 but not there yet.

Not discussed yet. NOE 26gr GC at 27gr with the GC. I only loaded 5 and picked 2.5gr because my measure was already set.

2.5gr TB = 1536 FPS AVG with 27gr NOE. In my CZ this grouped 1.2 inch at 35. I will need to work the loads, but, this boolit shot a nice group.

This is it for now. I do like my 32 NOE + 1.0gr TB at 716 fps. Sounds like a strong air rifle and shoots to point at 30 yards. I am going to do some .1 gr bumps and see where the velocity vs accuracy goes. I tried a 1.5gr TB load with the 32gr NOE in my first attempts with the boolit and it was not good. 2.5gr looks like another area to explore in my gun, but, I am back supersonic.

Thanks to all.
rch

[Minerat]

Thanks guys, that's just what I wanted to know. Looks like I'll be one step closer to the $1000 club this time next week.

[rhouser]

Sitrep:
I am getting 10 shot dime groups with the 32gr NOE at 50 yards with 2.8 gr TB and a Rem 6 1/2 SRP. AVG VEL 1557 fps. SD not great at 26.3 but not terrible either. I will reshoot with a Rem 7 1/2 just to see how it effects things.

I have not moved to the 100 yard range yet. The 1 gr loads are still working perfectly at 25 yards (.5 in) grouping. I need to do some penetration tests just to see. These are exiting the barrel with authority at 700 fps. It sounds like a high power air gun. Believe it or not, my gun likes the 32gr NOE at 1.0gr of TB better than 1.2gr.

If the 32's will group at 100 yards with the 2.8 grains and 1550 fps, I should stop here. I have always thought that 1600 fps is a good stop point for PB boolits. I am now confident that I will be able find a working 100 yard cast boolit load using the 32gr NOE in my CZ 17 HH.

v/r rch
v/r rch

[3leggedturtle]

This is cool topic. Glad some one shows this is possible and practical.

[Minerat]

rhouser,

It's all your fault.:kidding: after reading your last post, I bought both 0.172 NOE molds (3 cavity), the top punches, gas checks and sizer. Fortunately I got my wife to pay for it as a Christmas present.[smilie=w:

The fun begins after Christmas.

[rhouser]

Welcome to the insanity Minerat. My 17HH CZ is turning out to be a very good cast boolit shooter. At 32gr per boolit, math says I can get is 218 boolits to the pound.

There is something about it that is fun to me.

Lessons learned:
1. Remember to lightly inside chamfer the cases. Sharp edges cut lead.
2. I am sizing the 32 gr boolits using the .173 ring in my NOE push through sizer.
3. I am using the .173 NOE case neck expander (installed in my Lee Expander die) to size the necks.

These boolits are a dream to seat and they are shooting really well at the 50 yard line with 2.8 gr of Trail Boss. I will load some more and shoot the 100 this weekend.

I still have the 26gr GC to work on, but, the 32gr is a hoot.

rch

[Minerat]

I kinda have to wait for Christmas the wife got them and said santa had control now. I wan to try PC'n some too. I learned the hard way on the inside chamfer and expander using J words after crushing a couple of those tiny necks.

Steve

[rhouser]

I will be interested to see how your PC goes. It would eliminate the lube step and does keep everything clean. Still haven't gotten to the 100 yard range with the 2.8 grain loads, but I will soon.

Keep me posted on how your 32's are going.

v/r rch

[Minerat]

rhouser,

Well the fun begins. I have PC,d the first 30 (smoke's traffic orange 32gr and yellow26gr gc) and just cast another 100 of both. I think I'll use the same loading scheme you are so we are testing similar loads with the only difference being yours are lubed and my are PC'd. I try to get my chrono to cooperate, sometimes in the winter I don't get good contrast across the screens at my range since the mountain on the south side of the range leaves us in shadows. I'm draining the swamp the next 2 weekends so it may take a while for me to have some results. But as soon as I do you'll know.

[rhouser]

Minerat, did you ever get to shoot some of your PC's? Any update?

v/r rch

[Minerat]

I did but haven't had time to get the data together to be able too file a coherent report. Got chrono data on PCd 26 & 32 gr noe's with Trail boss and some 26 gr with blue dot but the battery on the chrono died before I could get the rest. I'll try to get what I have together tomorrow and post a report. TTFN

steve

[Minerat]

For inquiring minds. This is the data I collected at the range a couple of weeks ago.
Firearm: CZ 527 Varmint w/ Nikon PROSTAFF 5 3.5-14X50 BDC
Caliber: 17 Hornday Hornet
Boolits: NOE 172-26 GC and NOE 172-32 sized to 0.172 after coating. The alloy was ½ range – ½ COWW
Cases: New Hornday brass w/ CCI 400 SR primers
I used Smoke’s powders to double coat the boolits

Powder\load (gr)\Boolit\Wt (gr)\Velocity @ 10 ft.
Trail boss\1.0\172-26\26.5GC\694
Trail boss\1.6\172-26\26.5GC\1053
Trail boss\2.5\172-26\26.5GC\1415
Trail boss\1.0\172-32\33\685
Trail boss\1.6\172-32\33\1000
Trail boss\2.5\172-32\33\1340
Blue Dot\2.0\172-26\26.5GC\935

I have not included group numbers because of some technical issues that the reloader operator [smilie=1:caused when crimping the boolits (slight shoulder swelling) that probably affected the accuracy. While all rounds chambered some were harder then others due to the slight swelling . This may have had an effect on the case not being centered on the bore so I discounted the group sizes and decided on collecting only the velocity this time. No boolits were recovered as there was about 2 foot of snow behind targets and I could not find them. There was no leading in the barrel either.

I will say that as the powder charge of Trail Boss increased the groups began to tighten. All shots were fired at a 50 yard target, using 14 power and the set trigger option on the gun, The 1 gr groups tended to be around 4 inches low from aiming point, the 1.6 gr load were 3 inches low and the 2.5 gr groups were 2.0 inches low. All loads were weighed. All velocities ware based on 5 shot groups. I also had some Blue Dot loads ready but the battery in the Pact Professional Chrono died after the first Blue Dot loads were fired. The BD loads were 2.0 gr & 2.5 gr with each boolit. I may test the Blue Dot to 4.0 gr.

I plan to fix the case shoulder issue on the remaining rounds, reload the 2.0 gr BD and the 1.6 & 2.5 gr TB loads and test for accuracy. I’ll measure the velocities again to confirm these numbers.

Some might call out the use of a standard CCI primer as being the grouping problems but I used those when working up my first J word loads and got consistent sub- half inch groups at 100 yds out of this gun.

Questions?

[rhouser]

Minerat, Bump the TB to 2.8 and give it a try for 50 yards. That is the sweet spot for 50 yards with my CZ. I had grouping issues with the 1.0 gr TB at 50 yards. Not enough powder. At 25 yards the 32gr was a real eye opener. My CZ will shoot the 32 gr 1 grain load into "dime" groups at 25 yards. This makes a low noise sub sonic load which is useful to me. For 50 yards 2.8 grs does the trick.

v/r rch

[reed1911]

I've found that 3.0 of HP-38 shoots just wonderfully with the 32g

[softpoint]

Dang...Sprue hole bigger than the boolit?....

[Minerat]

Minerat, Bump the TB to 2.8 and give it a try for 50 yards. That is the sweet spot for 50 yards with my CZ. I had grouping issues with the 1.0 gr TB at 50 yards. Not enough powder. At 25 yards the 32gr was a real eye opener. My CZ will shoot the 32 gr 1 grain load into "dime" groups at 25 yards. This makes a low noise sub sonic load which is useful to me. For 50 yards 2.8 grs does the trick.

v/r rch

Maybe if I can learn not to mash the case when seating I can check accuracy. I'll fore go the 1.0 gr and try the 2.8 next at 50 yds. Then go back to the 1.0 later. Thanks

Softpoint. Kinda weird, right. Try handling them with fat fingers.:bigsmyl2:

[fiberoptik]

Paper patch!! [emoji405]


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[softpoint]

Paper patch!! [emoji405]


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I can hardly imagine casting and handling those tiny boogers. There have been a few people paper patch .22's though. Not me...lol

[Minerat]

Paper patch!! [emoji405]


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Not me! I have enough trouble getting them seated, to fight wrapping paper around them too. LOL

[reed1911]

No need to patch them, just like every other cast bullet use alloy/lube/GC for proper speed and everything goes well.

[richhodg66]

I bought a nice TC Contender Carbine in .17 HMR a few years ago, at the asking price, it was simply too good to pass on. Good rifle and accurate, but it's a cartridge I don't have much use for and I'd rather have something I can reload for.

Was contemplating having it rechambered to .17 Hornet since it's a factory round now. Not sure if I'd cast for it, but I coach a JROTC air rifle team and last year we were mandated to use lead free pellets. OK, there were some growing pains, but we've been using some that are advertised as a "tin alloy" whatever that means. I do know they are very hard and ten to bounce way out of the pellet traps which were designed for lead.

These are the flat nosed, wadcutter types, so energy transfer should be good. Since they are obviously much stronger than traditional lead pellets, I was wondering if they might load well in a .17 and make a decent squirrel round.

Does anyone know if the bore size, rate of twist, etc., on the .17 HMR would work for .17 Hornet?

[Minerat]

Its been awhile but my past 8 months has been mostly j word shooting in the 17 hh. But what has changed is I now have the NOE .173 sizer insert and .173 expander. I finally have some empty cases, a # of Cfe blk, a bunch of 26gr PC'd gc'd and 32gr PC'd ready to start loading again. I fixed the battery problem with the chrono so I don't have to deal with the battery dieing. Will start with 6.5 gr Cfe and work to 7.5 with both boolits, then work from 2.5 to 4.0 with blue dot and try the 2.8 gr Trail boss like Chad is using. Oh, I fixed the crushed cases and got a factory crimp die to stop that. Maybe I'll have something by Christmastime but once I do I'll post the results.