Marlin model 60 accuracy

[fatelk]

I've always liked the Marlin model 60. I helped a friend with his a while back, got it all cleaned up and shooting well. It shoots nice little nickel-sized groups at 25 yards.

I have two of them myself, but never really sat down with sandbags to see how they do. I started tinkering with one, and found accuracy seriously lacking, like 2" to 3" shotgun patterns at 25 yards. I tried several different types of ammo, checked everything I could think of, no better. Then I pulled out the other rifle for comparison and the groups from it were just as bad!

2" @25yards is ok for plinking tin cans across the yard, but I really expected better. It's funny, I do a google search and find all kinds of threads and such, but mostly I find people talking about how their rifle will shoot "minute of angle all day long with bulk ammo". Now I know talk like that is exaggerated baloney, but what kind of real accuracy should a person expect from a cheap .22 rifle?

[too many things]

you have a major problem some place
mine will do dime at 50yds anytime
ammo could be problem they like federal and rem gold , wildcats and the HV cci it dont like , cci reg is good too. or the reg super X win

[Traffer]

+1 on the Ammo. There are serious differences in quality and accuracy of ammo. Generally you want something under 1100fps. The fast shooting stuff in my experience is not accurate. Especially for longer range. (breaking the sound barrier and then back under it again) Also I have found that Remington Golden Bullets are all over the place. Sorry I can't recommend what would be best in your gun. The folks over at Rimfire Central are always talking about accuracy and what kind of ammo to get. You may want to check them out.

[fatelk]

I've tried several different types of ammo; CCI Minimag, Winchester M22, Federal Automatch, even some old Winchester T22. I even mounted a Leupold scope on one, though I can usually shoot inside of 2moa with iron sights. If they need some special ammo other than that I'm just going to get rid of both of them.

I'm confused because my friends identical rifle shoots nice little 1/2" groups at 25 yards. I've cleaned them and checked everything mechanical that I can. Next time I go out I'll try fiddling with them a bit more. To me a rimfire that will shoot 2" at 100 yards is pretty good. I know a match rifle with good ammo will do way better, but for a regular rifle with regular ammo I think that's good. 2" at 25yards is not.

If it's just an ammo problem I don't want them around. I won't have a rifle that requires it's own special little diet to work properly. I want something that will shoot at least moderately well with most anything.

[sigep1764]

Have you checked the barrel to stock alignment? If the barrel is pressing hard up against the stock crooked-like in the channel, that could cause problems. How about checking the action screws torque setting? Start at 15 inch lbs and move up to 23 to 25 inch lbs. Any more than that and you run the risk of crushing the wood. Also, some 60's have fore and aft play in the stock when you loosen the action screws. Make sure when you loosen them the action is set all the way to the rear of the stock, then retighten.

[Traffer]

Have you checked the barrel to stock alignment? If the barrel is pressing hard up against the stock crooked-like in the channel, that could cause problems. How about checking the action screws torque setting? Start at 15 inch lbs and move up to 23 to 25 inch lbs. Any more than that and you run the risk of crushing the wood. Also, some 60's have fore and aft play in the stock when you loosen the action screws. Make sure when you loosen them the action is set all the way to the rear of the stock, then retighten.

Yes, I have a Remington 514 that had a stock alignment issue. It is a big deal for accuracy.

[fatelk]

I think you guys might have something with that. Stock issues are my next area for attention. I didn't see anything obvious but I think I need to study up.

[Gtek]

Crown damage?

[Petrol & Powder]

Crown damage?

/\ that would be where I would start. The Marlin 60 is cleaned from the muzzle, a likely area to get damaged.

After that, I would look at the stock.

If the OP has a scope, that could also be the source of his trouble. Even if the mounts are tight the scope could still be the issue. I've seen a LOT of inexpensive scopes that would not hold a zero, even on low recoiling rifles like a .22 RF.

I don't think the Marlin 60 is a target rifle by any means but it should do better than that.
And once the groups shrink, then I would go in search of the particular cartridge that rifle likes. Every .22 rimfire rifle I've ever encountered would show a strong preference for a particular type of cartridge. You can often reduce group sizes by half just by finding the brand and type of cartridge the rifle likes. However, there's no sense in going on that journey until the problem is found.

[Bazoo]

I aint ever bagged a model 60. I sighted my current 22 rifle, a model 60 from the setting position, irons. I got it good enough to hit a shotgun shell at 50 yards off my target board. I cant see past bout 50 yards so, its cool with me.

I have bagged a marlin 15 though. It did a small ragged hole at 25 yards with federal bulk and a scope.

I had a remington 41 targetmaster that, with irons and good light and a rest, I could hit an empty 22 case at 25 yards or a bit more with federal bulk. And the wife had a crickett that I could do the same with but it liked winchester 333 bulk. Did pretty good with federal. Both of those I used to shoot off the top of my car across the yard to the fence.

I've had several 22s that would only do 2" or so at 25 yards, one was a different 41 targetmaster. I mostly shoot offhand. But even off hand, I can hit a shotgun shell at 25 yards with a 22 rifle.

[fatelk]

Well dangit. I got serious today,my son and I loaded up a bunch of .22 rifles and headed to the range. The only bays available were pistol bays so I was shooting at 25 yards, carefully and with sandbags.

I shot my old H&R Leatherneck. It kept them within about an inch with iron sights. Not very good but not terrible. Then I put the Leupold scope on my grandfather's old Mossberg 151 that he gave me when I was young. It did best with Mini-mags, making those nice tiny dime-sized groups that we all like. In a ten shot group about half of them went through the same hole! That convinced me it wasn't the scope or mount.

I then proceeded to put the scope on one model 60 then the other. The first one consistently hovered around 2" with any ammo I put in it. The other one I had tinkered with the stock bedding, to raise it up to where the stock was solidly contacting the action and not the barrel or tube. It was terrible, throwing bullets far and wide, maybe 4" plus. There is a clue.

I have the darn thing completely apart in front of me right now. Once I pulled the tube and was down to the bare barrelled action, the problem became obvious. The stinking barrel is loose in the receiver! It's held in by a pin but otherwise rattles slightly! :) I haven't torn the other one apart yet to see if it has a similar problem.

How to fix this? I'm thinking some careful peening/knurling of the barrel shank, and epoxy it in place?

[Multigunner]

Try glass bedding compound. A friend had one that someone had deliberately tried to destroy by swinging it like a ball bat at a tree. The stock was broken and the barrel was very very loose in the receiver.
After fixing the stock using accraglass as glue I put some on the barrel shank and drove an oversized cross pin in. It was tight as it could be after that and printed tight groups.
Since the cross pin hole was also ovaled a bit I used a small rod needle file to true it up first.



Only other way would probably be to bore out the receiver opening and rethread for an adapter, I don't see that as being worth the effort.
To be feasible one should also turn down the barrel shank and thread it into the adapter, to insured sufficient wall thickness without removing too much metal from the receiver. That's really more work than these are worth. Though if you have the proper tools it might not be that difficult. Keeping everything lined up is the hard part.

I've never run across one of these or the parent design that had any accuracy problems other than that single badly abused gun.

I usually got 1.25 MOA firing at 100 yards using Winchester T22 with my first Glenfield 60, and the 99M1 I have now is probably at least as accurate though I've not really put it to the test yet.

[fatelk]

I took the barrel out, sharpened up the knurling on the shank with a sharp chisel (carefully), then drove it in with some epoxy on it. It's curing now. I also did a little bedding on the stock. We'll see how that works.

The other rifle is a bit of a mystery. The barrel is solid as a rock on that one. If the first one shows significant improvement on accuracy maybe I'll try some stock bedding with it too.

It always impresses me when I hear of someone shooting around that magical 1moa with a .22lr. I have several centerfire rifles that will do that or better, but have never been able to do it with a rimfire, with any ammo. The best I could do was when I put a heavy barrel on my 10/22 and bedded the stock, around 1.5 moa with good ammo. I haven't had much luck with 10/22s out of the box. Generally not terribly accurate in my experience.

[egg250]

Interesting. I'm surprised it made it past quality control, but everybody puts out a lemon from time to time. The epoxy is probably fine for .22LR. Another fix would be to turn the barrel shank down or bore out the receiver (or both) and shim the barrel in the receiver, sizing it to a press fit. You'd have to be sure to check headspace before drilling for the retaining pin.

[fatelk]

The one with the loose barrel is an old gun, and it looked like someone had monkeyed with it before at some point. The barrel pin appeared to have been out before, and the barrel shank looked a little funky, so who knows. When I sharpened the knurling it was actually pretty tight. I think between that and the epoxy it should be ok.

The other rifle is of the same vintage but looks to have been shot very little. It still has a factory sticker on the stock. It actually belongs to my son. A family friend gave it to us before he was born and it's his when he's old enough, which won't be for a few more years. I guess I can't get rid of that one, and will need to put in the effort to try to make it shoot a little better. I just don't see any obvious problem. The barrel is solid. The stock looks good. The sights, mount, and scope are good. The rifling and crown look good. I'll figure it out eventually, unless the barrel is just a lemon.207608

[Petrol & Powder]

.........

It always impresses me when I hear of someone shooting around that magical 1moa with a .22lr. I have several centerfire rifles that will do that or better, but have never been able to do it with a rimfire, with any ammo. The best I could do was when I put a heavy barrel on my 10/22 and bedded the stock, around 1.5 moa with good ammo. I haven't had much luck with 10/22s out of the box. Generally not terribly accurate in my experience.

I had a Remington 541T with the standard barrel (thin barrel profile) than would easily hold less than 1 MOA. Like a complete idiot, I traded it during a purchase of a heavy barrel 541T. That rifle shoots just as well as the old one but no better than the old one. It of course weighs considerably more than that old standard barrel model.
An acquaintance has a CZ and an Anschutz target rifle (can't recall which model) and the CZ shoots AS good as the Anschutz!

As for the 10/22, out of all of the semi-auto rimfire rifles, the 10/22 is my favorite. With the right setup and ammo, they can be 1 MOA guns. The 10/22 is incredibly reliable and they have proven to be durable as well but I don't think the design lends itself to extremely fine accuracy. By the time you get a replacement barrel with a tight enough chamber to start seeing smaller groups, the reliability starts to drop off.

ALL rimfires will show a preference for a particular type of ammo. Finding the ammo your rifle likes is the single best method to gain results in terms of accuracy.

Standard velocity .22 rimfire target ammo that starts subsonic and therefore stays subsonic, will almost always yield better accuracy than the high speed rounds that go transonic before they reach their target. Obviously range plays a factor in this.

[popper]

HV in it will kill th buffer. The receiver must be pushed back all the way. Fire one, eject the next and look for nose damage. Do not crank down on the rings to receiver to keep the scope in place. I jbwelded a couple roll pins in the grooves to hold it. I also put a washer above the wood on the front screw. I'd check the crown too.

[fatelk]

Thanks guys. I've gotten lots of good suggestions from this thread. It will be a while before I can get out to the range again, but I've got it back together now and will see how it does when I can. The crown is in the photo above. I looked at it carefully under light with a loupe. I really don't see any problems with the crown. I've seen worse that shoot better.

I appreciate the advice on precision shooting, and I do enjoy precision, but for these rifles I'll be happy with good enough. It's a kids gun that will be used for shooting tin cans so if I can get it to shoot 2 or 3 moa with bulk ammo I'll be happy.

[egg250]

Here's another suggestion. While squirrel hunting, I found I couldn't hit anything with my Marlin 60. Heading back to the range I determined I was hitting about 1.5" below point of aim and shooting about a 1" group at 25 yards. Looking at the gun, I noticed the stock was contacting the barrel in several places and the action screw had been compacting the wood stock.

I relieved the barrel channel, ensuring no contact with the barrel was occurring. I made a pillar and epoxied in the stock so the action screw would bear against steel instead of crushing the wood stock. My group size shrunk to about .5" at 25 yards, but I noticed the barrel was being pulled to the left and was contacting the stock again. My next project on this will be to remove the magazine tube and epoxy bed the front part of the action and first inch or so of barrel. I'll leave a business card to shim the barrel while the epoxy cures to ensure the action will be true in the stock. I hope this will further reduce my group size. I will also look at installing some type of shim for the rear part of the action to bear against which should also help.

[fatelk]

Well, I give up, at least for now. I can't decide whether to get some satisfaction by feeding these two rifles through a wood chipper, or save them for the next "buy back" I hear about. No, not really. I'll just shove them back in the safe until I feel like messing with them again. I've wasted too much time and ammo on them already for now.

I fixed the loose barrel on the one, thought that might do it, and carefully did some basic stock bedding on both of them. Absolutely no change in accuracy, for either one. I'm sure someone here has some magic bullets or super secret benchrest technique that would make tack drivers out of them, but for now I'm through.

It's not the sights or the scope. I've ruled that out thoroughly. It's not my shooting ability. I get nice little groups with my old Mossberg .22 using the same scope, and today I was getting nice little groups with my old Romanian trainer .22 with iron sights. I was even getting better groups with my ratty old Ishapor Enfield and untested cast loads!

I don't think it's the bedding or the crowns. I'm not a gunsmith or really any kind of expert, but I've been doing this kind of thing for decades and am not a newbie. The one rifle was given to me for my kid from a friend. At the time he mentioned that it would be an ok kids gun but he didn't really like it. I suspect now because it's not very accurate. The other was a gun show junker I got cheap long ago, maybe because it's a lemon? I have seen barrels that just plain won't shoot straight for no apparent reason. I know, there's got to be a reason, but I just don't see it. I'm done fiddling with these lemons for now.

[kungfustyle]

I taught my daughter to shoot with a 60. Even took it out to 100 yards with an 6" steel gong She hit it 12 out of 15 rounds. Great little gun, we were using Federal Match.

[Scorpion8]

you have a major problem some place
mine will do dime at 50yds anytime
ammo could be problem they like federal and rem gold , wildcats and the HV cci it dont like , cci reg is good too. or the reg super X win

Ditto. Both of mine shoot nickel-sized groups at 50-yards with Remington Golden Bullet or Thunderbolt. The Marlin 60 is really a very accurate rifle, so start digging deeper into yours. Perhaps the action screw is too tight?

[fatelk]

The average Marlin 60 is typically quite accurate, but I can tell you that these two specimens are not. I've had them apart and back together checking everything I can think of a dozen times. Logically it seems there has to be something I'm missing, but I've come to the conclusion they are just junk with poor barrels. I've dug as deep as I can stand troubleshooting, wasted a huge amount of time and ammo messing with them. It's not fun anymore and I'm done with them.

No offense towards the average model 60 which I'm sure shoots like a laser, but these two are junk.

Sorry, I'm just a little irritated right now.

[crappie-hunter]

I can relate to your frustration. I have two Norinco,yes Chinese rimfires ,the one shoots nice tiny groups at 50yds,the other would shoot a pattern like a shotgun.Did everything I knew to do.even had a smith run his bore scope down the barrel,nothing look bad to him.

Finally in desperation, I decided that this gun was of no value to me the way it was, so I sawed 4" off the muzzle with a hacksaw,yea I was upset with this one, re-crowned the best I could ,test fired and no change. Back to the vise and saw again and took 2" more off,and when I ran a cleaning rod with a patch on in from the breech I immediately noticed a tight spot right at the muzzle where I just made the cut,immediately the light bulb came on,there had been a tight spot in the rifling about 6" from the muzzle that was sizing the bullets smaller, and as they went the last 6" down the barrel and exited the muzzle they were wobbling all over the place as they went down range. I may be just lucky ,but I just squared the last cut up with a file as best I could and chucked a 30cal bullet in a battery drill and some valve grinding compound and smoothed up the inside of the cut to resemble somewhat of a crown. Now this Norinco is just as accurate as the other, and is my favorite because of the short barrel. I often pick it over the two Ruger americans that sit beside it in the safe.

I'm not recommending you take such drastic action,but clean the bore really good then run as tight a patch down the bore as you can get, and see if you can detect a tight spot somewhere between the breech and the muzzle.

[smkummer]

I can keep hitting a golf ball until it's almost too far to see. Finally when the front sight completely covers the small white ball, then the hits get erratic. If I had a scope on it, that range would increase.

[mac1911]

I recently received a email from marlin.
Been having accuracy issues with the XT22. They replied to my question
We use remington golden bullets for testing and the XT 22 accuracy is acceptable at 2" group at 50 yards.

I would think the M60 standards are not any better. The big question is how many and how often do they bother to test.

[tazman]

Two inches at 50 yards is simply not acceptable. A squirrel's head is smaller than that.
Since squirrel hunting is the majority of my 22lr use besides shooting paper, that would limit my shots to 25 yards or less. I won't keep a 22lr that shoots that poorly.

[egg250]

When you decide to pick it up again, before cleaning, use a bore scope to check the condition of the bore. There may be lead or carbon fouling build up or imperfections in the bore. If the bore is fouled, scrub it clean. It may take lots of time and elbow grease. While cleaning, pay attention to tight spots in the bore (already been suggested above). Once you get it absolutely clean, bore scope it again checking for rough spots, imperfections, etc.

Bore scopes can be very expensive, but I picked up a 5mm usb camera for about $20 off amazon. It isn't high definition but you can see fouling, rust, nicks, pitting, etc in the bore.

Headspace might also be an issue or, more likely, too much jump between the bullet and the rifling. If bullet has a chance to enter the bore cocked to once side or another, it can lead to accuracy issues as well.

[Der Gebirgsjager]

I can't specifically address your issue(s) without seeing your rifles, but can offer the testimonial that many years ago (late '60s) I had a friend who purchased a Ruger 10/22. We went hunting and the fellow was shooting grey tree squirrels out of walnut trees with head shots. I just had to have one, but kept putting it off until the early 1980s, and when I did get one I was badly disappointed in it's accuracy. At the same time the Marlin was being offered at great prices in the chain sporting goods stores and around 1982 I bought one of the Glenfield versions with the acorns and checkering impressed into the stock. The Glenfield shot so well that I immediately sold the Ruger. Yes, I know that there are a myriad of after market accessories with which to make the Ruger a tack driver (less so at the time), but the Glenfield was one right out of the box and I've remained very happy with it over the years. I had several Marlin Mod. 60s come through my shop for repair, and usually they had been owned for many years and never cleaned "I mean really, a .22? Who bothers to clean them?" Usually all they required was disassembly and immersion of the trigger group/firing mechanism in a bucket of solvent and then a good scrubbing with a toothbrush and blowing out with compressed air to be put back into service. Marlin discouraged gunsmiths from working on the trigger group, and there were at least three different versions during the rifle's production span. It is an interesting mechanism, made like a sandwich with the functioning parts between two pieces of sheet metal and pinned together. I did take several apart and replace parts as needed, and in a couple of instances had to cannibalize the parts from models of the same vintage. They're like a Timex wristwatch.....you know the saying. I've got my Glenfield "until death do us part." But, something I was aware of throughout my gunsmithing career was that Marlin's Q.C. was sometimes spotty. I used to get in brand new 336 models with runs and drips in the finish, sometimes a small scratch on the side of the receiver, etc. So I can believe that it is possible that yours went out their door with substandard barrels. Possible. If that is the case, then you might as well get rid of them to someone else, because about the only way you will get a satisfactory barrel is to take one off another rifle, and whether or not the two you have are tack drivers they are merchantable as-is. So, sell them and find a couple that shoot better.

[mac1911]

Two inches at 50 yards is simply not acceptable. A squirrel's head is smaller than that.
Since squirrel hunting is the majority of my 22lr use besides shooting paper, that would limit my shots to 25 yards or less. I won't keep a 22lr that shoots that poorly.

I agree but its obvious by marlins standards that its perfectly ok . I cant see them doing anything more than batch testing a handful per thousand made. so if you get one that shoots nice your way ahead.