9mm Luger Bad Loads

[DonMountain]

I am trying to load some 9mm Luger rounds to shoot in a Norinco Model 213 for my wife. Factory Winchester rounds with 115 grain round nosed jacketed bullets shoot just fine, with the firing pin leaving a normal dent in the primer. I am loading these same Winchester cases and 115 grain round nosed jacketed bullets after the normal sizing, belling and bullet seating/crimping using really old CCI-500 small pistol primers with a price of $9.99 on the box that my brother gave me from a purchase he made from a club member's widow to get a shotgun reloading press. I am using 5.2 grains of W-231 powder in a metal can with the 1" diameter metal screw cap from the same source. I have used this powder in 45 ACP loads with modern Winchester primers successfully. When I fire the Luger rounds, about a third of them don't go off initially, and some of them go off on the second time by recocking the hammer. When they do fire, the primers are flat across the firing pin dent, like they are over pressured or something, and the pressure ironed the primer hole back out flat with some crinckles showing where the firing pin hit. If I load less powder the gun won't cycle. I haven't tried some new primers yet, but I have never seen the primer pin holes ironed out flat like this. Anybody have any ideas what the problem is?

[35remington]

Primers not seated deep enough.

[roysha]

A couple of things come to mind.

Are you possibly crimping too much and thus allowing the cartridge to be driven forward by the FP causing the case to slam back into the breech face upon firing?

Many years ago I got into a fuss with CCI and quit using their products. However I had several 100 primers of various sizes which just sat around in a drawer for long time. I was working with one of my FALs and decided to load some "friends and family" ammo, you know the kind for folks that just want to say "oh yeah, I've shot one of those" and figured that would be a good way to get rid of some of the CCIs. Loaded up a 100 or so using the same load I have been using for years with either WIN (my first choice) or FED LR primers. Virtually every CCI primer pierced. Pulled the ammo apart and reprimed with WIN. NO PROBLEM! Now, I'm a firm believer in "waste not, want not" but ALL those CCIs went in the trash.

I would suggest trying your load with either WIN or FED primers.

Oh yeah. I HATE 231. Had some bad luck with a batch of it 30 years or ago and will throw rocks before I ever use it again.

[ReloaderFred]

Your primers aren't seated all the way, and your load is over maximum in both the Lyman and Hodgdon manuals. You also don't mention the OAL of the loaded rounds, so if you've seated these bullets excessively deep, that reduces the case volume of an already high pressure round, which in turn increases the pressure even further.

According to the Lyman 48th, which is what I keep near my computer, and the Hodgdon manual, you're from .3 to .1 grains over the maximum for those bullets.

Any time a primer detonates on the second or third strike, it means the primer wasn't seated to the bottom of the primer pocket. If not seated all the way, the anvil isn't set into the primer pellet correctly. The first strike finishes seating the primer and the second sets it off.

Hope this helps.

Fred

[6bg6ga]

Your primers aren't seated all the way, and your load is over maximum in both the Lyman and Hodgdon manuals. You also don't mention the OAL of the loaded rounds, so if you've seated these bullets excessively deep, that reduces the case volume of an already high pressure round, which in turn increases the pressure even further.

According to the Lyman 48th, which is what I keep near my computer, and the Hodgdon manual, you're from .3 to .1 grains over the maximum for those bullets.

Any time a primer detonates on the second or third strike, it means the primer wasn't seated to the bottom of the primer pocket. If not seated all the way, the anvil isn't set into the primer pellet correctly. The first strike finishes seating the primer and the second sets it off.

Hope this helps.

Fred

Or it can also mean a light strike

[ReloaderFred]

A light strike doesn't normally set the primer off on the second strike, but I suppose it could. He said the factory rounds go off every time, so primer seating is usually the indication when reloads are introduced into the equation.

Hope this helps.

Fred

[dubber123]

Winchester primers are softer than CCI's which are quite hard compared to some, it could be a weaker mainspring, or that the primers aren't fully seated as mentioned by the others that is causing the misfires. I tend to think its a seating issue, as unless it has been monkeyed with, those Norincos usually whack a primer pretty hard.

[6bg6ga]

Well Fred I have experimented with my AR-15 300 blackout and 5.56 triggers and have come up with this. I ALWAYS set my rifle primers and pistol primers ALL the way in period. Primers need to be seted all the way in. In playing with my spring tensions I was able to come up with this 100% of the time. To verify this condition I used my tool to remove the bullet and powder on a number of FACTORY rounds just to test this condition. The results WERE repeated.

When spring rate was increased the primers always fired the first time so yes you can strike to soft and be able to touch it off on the second time around.

[HeavyMetal]

switch primers load same brass same powder see what happens, but double check both powder charge an OAL from a manual first.

[kmw1954]

Used to be that I would agree with high primers until I obtained a Pistol that absolutely hates CCI Small Pistol primers. It will only fire about 60% of the time yet I can take those exact same loads from the same batch and every one of them will fire in another gun. Then looking at the primers coming out of the gun that did not fire the strike is so light it barely makes a dent. This same gun also will fire any other primer or factory load.

[6bg6ga]

This second strike condition is easily repeatable for anyone that owns a Glock and has changed the firing pin spring. Been there done that. Have had lighter thn stock springs in a Glock and have had to fire rounds two times to touch them off. Changed back to the STOCK Glock firing pin spring and no problems. Yes, I fully seat everything.

[6bg6ga]

switch primers load same brass same powder see what happens, but double check both powder charge an OAL from a manual first.

Been there done that and have been loading almost 50 years now.

[Kosh75287]

Get different primers. Disassemble, clean and oil all the articulating surfaces within the pistol. Leave the barrel out and check your reloaded rounds by dropping them into the chamber. They should drop in with only gravity, and the rim should be flush with or slightly under the "lip" of the barrel. If your reloaded rounds drop in such that the cartridge rim is noticeably forward of the barrel "lip", you are either loading them too short, or you may be over-crimping when you seat the projectiles.

Before you commence reloading, drop your powder charge to 4.7/W231/115, and work up. You may also find that using a slower-burning powder, like Unique or AA#5, will result in better operation of the action.

[Plate plinker]

Follow post #4 by Fred. Your load seems a bit on the hot side to me, please check your book. 231 is fairly fast powder and I have used it with success under 124 gr lead rn boolits.

[roysha]

Winchester primers are softer than CCI's which are quite hard compared to some, it could be a weaker mainspring, or that the primers aren't fully seated as mentioned by the others that is causing the misfires. I tend to think its a seating issue, as unless it has been monkeyed with, those Norincos usually whack a primer pretty hard.

I find that statement quite interesting in as much as the ONLY slam fires I have ever experienced in my FALs and detonation while primer seating, is with CCI LR and LP.

As for the idea of not fully seated primer, the difficulty of seating the primer fully was part of the issue I had with CCI, actually it was there attitude when questioned about that, sent me down the road.

[6bg6ga]

I find that statement quite interesting in as much as the ONLY slam fires I have ever experienced in my FALs and detonation while primer seating, is with CCI LR and LP.

As for the idea of not fully seated primer, the difficulty of seating the primer fully was part of the issue I had with CCI, actually it was there attitude when questioned about that, sent me down the road.

Its pretty easy to check to see if your primer is seated all the way. I generally pull out my depth mic and check it. Anyway in my case my primers ARE seated all the way.

With respect to the use of WW231 powder. I've used this powder in anything from 380 to 45acp with absolutely no problems. The thought of it being too fast a burning powder nd this is causing problems is almost laughable in my opinion. I've used everything from mouse loads to maximum loads with bullets from 124gr to 160 gr and absolutely everyone has worked.

Slam fires in my FAL? Never experience any period. Again my primers are seated fully but also all my lower parts are either original or re-manufactured US parts. No light springs in this baby its ready to rock and roll when things ever hit the fan.

Its very easy to tell if your experiencing a light strike. Simply load something with a harder primer like CCI or a Tula. Light strike and she won't touch off. Switch back to a different primer I use Winchester myself and the thing fires.

[reddog81]

Where did you get your reloading data from? All the published data I see has lower maximum charges, this includes Lyman and Hodgdon's own website.

Regarding the primers - I'd just try some of more recent manufacture and see what happens. Also make sure they are all seated correctly.

[6bg6ga]

Where did you get your reloading data from? All the published data I see has lower maximum charges, this includes Lyman and Hodgdon's own website.

Regarding the primers - I'd just try some of more recent manufacture and see what happens. Also make sure they are all seated correctly.

If your asking me where I arrived at the 160 gr load for 9mm itss a roduct of trial and error. There is no data for the 160 gr bullet.

[reddog81]

If your asking me where I arrived at the 160 gr load for 9mm itss a roduct of trial and error. There is no data for the 160 gr bullet.

My question was directed towards the original post.

I've loaded the 158 grain Lyman 358311 using old load data. The problem I've had with those bullets is that the internal taper of the case swags down the base of the bullet. I was able to get the loads to function but accuracy was only so so.

[Forrest r]

My question was directed towards the original post.

I've loaded the 158 grain Lyman 358311 using old load data. The problem I've had with those bullets is that the internal taper of the case swags down the base of the bullet. I was able to get the loads to function but accuracy was only so so.

https://i.imgur.com/p7ulEx6.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/aFsP8TI.jpg

Lyman 35870's (fn hb) that are just as long as the lyman 358311's. A 10-shot group @ 50yds with a mn 1911 chambered in 9mm.
https://i.imgur.com/77VoPsa.jpg

The lyman 35870 (.695" long/red) next to a mihec 125gr (.595" tall/green) hp for the 9mm. Both loaded to the same oal
https://i.imgur.com/V87WlTN.jpg

Shot countless 1000's of 358311's in 9mm cases decades ago. Used to fit 6" 9mm bbl's in our 1911/38supers and run the 160gr 358311's in them.

Not saying anything about the ww231/9mm load. Just putting out there that any published load doesn't mean squat if the oal's are changed.
Ramshot put this graph out in their reloading manual
https://i.imgur.com/UlcjxB5.jpg

quick load data
https://i.imgur.com/iVohJkW.png

Back in the day bullseye used to be the bad boy on the block. A lot of kabooms from the bullseye/148gr wc's/38spl combo. Alliant (hercules) back them used to put this out trying to save a couple s&w 14's I guess.
https://i.imgur.com/uIUZpPE.jpg