Opinion Request: Best Milsurp candidate(s) for casting?

[PerpetualStudent]

Long story short: I might be looking to buy a milsurp next spring. For shooting rather than collecting.

I've been watching the market a bit. The .303 brit guns seem to be coming down in price as the cheap ammo becomes scarcer. The Nagants have gone up but seem to have stabilized. Both of these take the .311 caliber bullets which are more expensive so (in my mind) good casting candidates. Brass is expensive but both of these calibers are being commercially loaded and have some brass availability. The .303 stuff is a bit cheaper. I've heard that brass lasts a long time for 7.62x54 I don't know if the same can be said for .303. From reading here I've seen that the 6.5x55 is a well loved and versatile caliber but controversial as far as cast goes. And that's about the extent of my knowledge.

I know some of calibers are really hard to source brass for, and that the golden age of cheap milsurp is over. Since I've got a casting setup, it makes sense to choose a milsurp that lends itself to casting and so I thought I'd get some opinions and resources before I'm seriously shopping. Any resources and opinions are welcome.

[curator]

Give some consideration to picking up a Yugoslavian M48 Mauser. The 8X57 cartridge is easy to get/make brass and the .323-.325" bore size is cast-friendly. Most of these rifles never saw service and are nearly new. The rifles are quite accurate as well. I am a big fan of the Lee Enfield in all its varieties and own and shoot several of them. However, my M48 Yugo out shoots them all with cast boolits.

[tranders]

I have been casting for my 1942 Tula Mosin Nagant with some decent results. I use the Lee .312 -185-1R mold with a gas check over IMR 4227 per the Lyman Cast manual.
I also would like to find an Enfield,but prices are more than I want to pay at this moment.

[Maven]

PS, In spite of its reputation, the Swedish Mausers do shoot CB's very accurately, but you have to limit velocity and CB weight. Lee Precision, for ex., used to offer a dandy 6 cav. mold which cast a ~135gr. CB that my Swede shot very well. Two other rifle suggestions: (1) a Finnish Nagant, particularly a Sako, Tikka, or Valmet Mod. 28/30 or Mod. 39. (2) a Swiss K-31. Both are excellent CB shooters, but may be somewhat difficult to find.

[Gewehr-Guy]

My vote is for the 03-A3, because of the usually v-g bores, excellent sights and cheap brass. But they come at about twice the price of Nagants and misc Mausers.

[Kraschenbirn]

Tough question to answer. ALL my modest collection of milsurps are pretty 'boolit friendly' but if I were starting over again, I'd probably go looking for an M98 variant in some sort of reasonable condition. Brass for any of the military Mauser calibers is fairly easy to obtain...either purchased commercial or formed from .30-06...and, one with a decent bore, with a bit of load development, will shoot cast every bit as accurately as milsurp ball.

Bill

[beemer]

I like Enfields and have shot them a lot . They can be a bit fussy to bed properly and are generally not as accurate as a Mauser. The bore size can be all over the place. I have one with a 2 groove barrel that only does fair with cast, the 5 groove seems to be better. With neck sizing and cast bullet loads the brass holds up fairly well even though chambers can on the large side.

As stated by the curator the Yugo Mauser is a fine rifle and does very well with cast. The 8X 57 is one fine round for jacketed and cast.

The Nagants can be a bit rough, sometimes it can be hard to find one with a good bore. All I have tried need the bedding worked on as the barrel was in a bad bind. Although strong enough they are not very refined and have a crude safety.

On the other hand the Finnish M39 is one of the least fussy cast shooters I have. They have a heavy stable stock and good sights with elevation and windage adjustments. It still has that safety but mine is a range gun so it doesn't lay around loaded.

Whatever you decide take your time and find a good one, they are out there it just takes some digging. I take a cleaning rod with me and ask to wipe the bore out if there is a question about it. If the dealer refuses walk on, it's your money and you decide where to spend it. I like a good bore and a little higher price for a nice rifle with a good bore is money well spent.

Dave

[Soundguy]

To decide what firearm to get.. You need to decide what you want to do with it. Are you punching paper? Taking deer? Brush gun for hog? Benchrest shooting?

Different milsurps will be better at some things than others.

I'd use a Swede for benchrest.

Any of them will recreationally punch paper.

Deer? A 8mm mauser variant will give you lots of wiggle room.

Brush/hog gun? A m38 mosin carbine moves easily in the brush, and the powerful 7.62x54r will take any north American hog if you do your part.

[PerpetualStudent]

Fair question soundguy.

I definitely want to take deer with it. It'll be my first full size rifle. My shotgun can take care of close range, I need something to shoot longer range. With more authority than an intermediate cartridge. We're making the jump to home ownership so my budget got shrunk. Realistically it'll mainly punch paper and fill deer tags.

I hadn't thought about the 8mm. That does seem to be worth consideration.

[Soundguy]

I hate to say this, but if on a budget, you can get a new savage axis in 270 or 30-06, with scope, for what a like new M48a will go for.

[texasnative46]

To All,

About a decade ago, I bought six M48 Mauser rifles "for peanuts" (about 118.oo each), using my C&R license. = Despite the varied conditions externally, that graded from VG to MINT, they all shot VERY WELL with surplus FMJ, factory JSP/JHP & my homebrew GCCB.

The Yugo Mausers are hard to beat, imo.

yours, tex

[Soundguy]

Yes they are.. I have a few in near mint conditions with perfect bores that shoot like a loser hunting bolt action. However.. They have steadily gone up in $$.. Even Turk mausers are almost never seen under 250$.

[Jeff Michel]

A 1911 Schmidt-Rubin or K31

[Texas by God]

You did say milsurp so I'll go with the 8x57 Yugo. I saw a M48 for $300 dollars locally and it hasn't sold in 3 weeks so far. 8x57 will kill any thing big enough to die.

[funnyjim014]

For hunting and paper I would go with a 8mm something or other with good bore. If your looking for cheep and ultarian I would not rule out a old sporterised mouser. My first mil surp was a gew 98 that was cut down and in a cheesy fajin stock that cracked at the wrist after a summer of cheep surplus turk ammo. Then was a plastic cheep stock. Now it is Franken mouser in military dress carbine with a mix of parts. It's still a tack driver and it's all my personality, it's not worth much buts I'll never part with it

[Hamish]

BEST milsurp for cast?

.30/40 Krag with its proprietary 311284, of course.

Well, maybe a Sharps in .45/70?

Honestly? IMO, none of them are to be excluded from consideration unless an individual rifles bore is trashed beyond all hope.

Personally, it's the K98k in 7,92x57, but that's just because it was the first rifle I carried deer hunting as a kid.

As has been said, consider your goals and budget and remember this thread later when your casting for your third or fourth milsurp,,,,,,

[RogerDat]

I am a real fan of the 303 British Enfield. And the ability to cast to the bore can make a huge difference in accuracy. That said the 8x57 mauser with a bore rider bullet profile is a fun to shoot accurate rifle.

303 brass if neck sized and kept with same rifle can have good case life and it does offer a variety of load possibilities from 160 grain to 200+ grain cast lead. The 8mm brass can be made from 30-06 which can save some money. But neither one is going to burn through brass and both have commercial brass available. A couple hundred cases should last a long time.

I would personally lean toward a good bore, good condition rifle in military stock and configuration in whichever one you can find a good one for at a good price. I wouldn't turn my nose up at a sport version model either if it wasn't too bubba. You can still find those around for sub $200 prices and pick up a poly stock for between $70 and $175 with scope mount and no name scope. You can also just buy the stock, scope mount, and scope for the Enfield but that gives you a ballpark. What would you pay for a poly stock 30 caliber bolt gun? My guess is at least as much.

My own preference is for still in military configuration but the poly stock sporter is certainly an option.

[dverna]

I hate to say this, but if on a budget, you can get a new savage axis in 270 or 30-06, with scope, for what a like new M48a will go for.

My thoughts as well. A new gun that can easily be scoped. In something like .308. Cheap brass. Great accuracy. A mil-surp neds to be in the $200 range to make sense.

[samari46]

I squinted, peered and looked down the bores of just about every mil surp rifle you could think of since WWI. Would rather have a truly nice bore without pitting or corrosion. Which most if not all my mil surps have. Strangely enough I usually found the ones with the nicest bore usually are in pretty nice shape on the outside. The one I like the most is a Finn model 27 moisin nagant made in 1935. Got that one in a one for one swap over 30 years ago. Since I have had it, it has never seen a jacketed bullet. I use Lyman's 314299 with 20 grs IMR 4759 in Hansen Cartridge cases which at the time were the only boxer primed cases outside of Norma. Next up is a 1898 Krag that was cut down from a rifle. Nice bore and have yet to slug the barrel for cast boolits. I've probably ticked off a bunch of gun show dealers asking they remove the tie wraps so's I can check the condition of the bore. I carry a few extra tie wraps to replace theirs. Only had a couple refuse so say thanks and move on. Frank

[longbow]

I was wondering if anyone would mention .45-70. It is a milsurp and easy to cast for. That would get my vote... except for a Trapdoor Springfield. That one never did anything for me.

[quail4jake]

"The .30-'06 is never a mistake"-Col. Townsend Whelan. So...I would recommend a pristine, magnaflux negative M1917 with Al Nelson's recommended NOE boolit. Right! now something budget friendly; A #4 Enfield, pound slug the throat and call NOE with the results or send the slug to Veral Smith for a custom mould. This is my advice for a first milsurp with the goal to eliminate headbanging[smilie=b: and please, don't reinvent the wheel just refer to Cast Boolits for advice and enjoy your success! Save the 6,5 Sverge until you cut your teeth, great rifle and ctg for cast boolits but requires tweaking, tapered long throat etc. BTW, it is my goal to have a M1917 shooting well with a cast boolit along with a full US expeditionary forces uniform sometime in 2018! Won't you wish me well?!

[PerpetualStudent]

My thoughts as well. A new gun that can easily be scoped. In something like .308. Cheap brass. Great accuracy. A mil-surp neds to be in the $200 range to make sense.

I honestly hadn't realized that the savage can get down to <300, depending on sales. Though oddly, in WI armslist at least, used savages are about as expensive as used 8mm Mauser.

My leaning towards milsurp is 2 fold.
1. Watching the .303 rifles come down in price I was/am hopeful that people who don't cast and form their own brass will get rid of good guns because no cheap ammo. While casting can keep it in business longer 2. I do trust the milsurp to stand up to sustained fire (God forbid it becomes necessary) better than an entry level hunting rifle. If I didn't have in the back of my mind, "If I ever need..." I'd probably just start looking for a savage.

I appreciate all the replies and information. I'm also a big believer that fit is king so I'll start peering down bores and hefting rifles to see if I find one that feels good for the right price. And I'll make sure to heft a savage or two as well.

[dverna]

PS,

When I suggested the Savage, it is not because I own one. I nearly bought one but decided the Howa was a better gun and I found one on sale at a price I could not walk away from. I still think the Savage is one of the best buys out there.

I am an old man. I remember when years ago the mil-surps had their place, but the price was right (.303's were going for $15 and M98's for $50 back then!). Most are not easy to scope, and the triggers are not good. Brass for some is not cheap. They are heavy etc etc. Not much appeal unless the nostalgia factor is important to you.

I doubt a modern gun will give you any issues with "sustained fire". A bolt gun is not the best choice in that scenario anyway, but that is a different topic.

BTW, a couple of years ago I bought a new HB Model 700 for under $400 during a Black Friday sale. It was the basis for my "sniper" rifle. Keep on the lookout at places like CDNN for good deals on new guns.

Cold hard logic is conspicuously absent from most gun purchases. I know...I am guilty of it. In the last few years I have sold over 20 guns that at one time I "needed". All were good guns, some were shot very little, some not at all, none were really needed.

One last thought. Give some thought to a .30/30 lever action. For sustained fire it will be faster than a bolt gun, brass is easy to get and it will deliver about as much ballistics with cast as most mil-surps. It can be topped up during lulls in firing without the need for magazines or stripper clips. It does not yell tacti-cool, or militia, but it is a decent "assault" rifle and it is easy to carry/handle. It is about as accurate as most mil-surps as well. I have three of them LOL. The bulk of my "cheap" rifle shooting is done with .357 lever actions. It is nice to run hundreds of rounds at a time on a progressive and use a few grains of pistol/shotgun powder per round.

Good luck with your quest!

[bob208]

even though I have 6 .303s I would shay away from one because brass can be hard to get plus they can be hard on brass. I would say a 8mm mauser a 7.64 mauser 03 springfield 1917 enfieldone of the indian enfields in .308. I have and shoot all of them with cast .

[Soundguy]

I honestly hadn't realized that the savage can get down to <300, depending on sales. Though oddly, in WI armslist at least, used savages are about as expensive as used 8mm Mauser.

My leaning towards milsurp is 2 fold.
1. Watching the .303 rifles come down in price I was/am hopeful that people who don't cast and form their own brass will get rid of good guns because no cheap ammo. While casting can keep it in business longer 2. I do trust the milsurp to stand up to sustained fire (God forbid it becomes necessary) better than an entry level hunting rifle. If I didn't have in the back of my mind, "If I ever need..." I'd probably just start looking for a savage.

I appreciate all the replies and information. I'm also a big believer that fit is king so I'll start peering down bores and hefting rifles to see if I find one that feels good for the right price. And I'll make sure to heft a savage or two as well.

I just went to RKguns.. savage axis in range from 243-6.5 creedmoore to 30-06 for 300$ no sale, and 350$ scoped. no sale. Sales come along often.. and I know I have seen that gun for 259$

Mossberg patriot bolt rifles are regularly 275$ not on sale, as well.

Mossberg 4x4 are 257$ on sale, and thompson /center/compass 30-06 are 285$ on sale

[bedbugbilly]

I have no dog in this fight as I'm sure there are lots of different milsurp rifles out there that would fit the bill for what yo are looking for.

I've owned probably 3 or 4 8 X 57 Mausers through the years. They were great deer guns. The only reason I'm adding anything to this is to also state that the only thing I shoot now out of the only Mauser I have left - a GEW98 - 1907 Danzig - are "cat sneeze" loads. I have a NOE mold that is a .326 (my bore is .323) that throws a 130ish grain flat nose boolit. Over about 8 grains of Red Dot it is a great plinker and lays them right in there at 50 yards. I was limited to 50 yards so don't know about 100 yards but I think it would do very well at that range as well.

My point - a 8 X 57 Mauser has a lot to offer in terms of light loads for plinking and as far as standard loads for taking deer, etc. The plus is that you can easily refer 30-06 brass to 8mm if you can't find the 8mm brass at times. A "plus plus".

But, a 30-06 rifle should offer the same things and brass is easy to come by and lots of molds out there to play with as well.

While I've owned probably a half dozen .303 Enfields, I never shot any of them so can't speak to them.

I'm an old fart and when I was younger, a Nagant was considered a "junk rifle". No offense to anyone who enjoys them. That's just the way it was but then they only cost around $18 or so at the time - a far cry from today but then a whole different generation as well. The same with the Arisaka, but then most of the "prejudice" against them was voiced in my day by those that had been on the receiving end of them in the Pacific. Today, it's a different story and they have many fans.

While price may be an issue for the rifle, I would probably (myself) look at the availability of brass and the variety of available molds along with what I wanted to do with it to help make a decision. Whatever you end up with you'll have lots of fun working out loads and boolits and that's all part of the fun! Good luck!

[Soundguy]

A nagant wouldn't be my choice for a deer rifle, unless it was a sniper/ex sniper, fin, or one checked and had a tight bore. I've seen too many nagants made during war tin expediency that had large side of generous spec bores. They were a great gun to mass produce and put in the hands of a multitude of unwashed, untrained masses, and be servicable for 50-70 years and 3+ wars... In a pinch, the ling 1891 & long pointy bayonets make a great emergency spear. :)

For a 50 yard hog/ brush gun? ( shorty M38 ) Sure, couldn't miss with a smooth bore at that range, and the muzzle flash and report will momentarily stun the porcine anyway :)

[Outpost75]

Coming late to the discussion. I have owned and shot with cast just about all the rifles mentioned, except the K31.

If I were to boil it down to one rifle for cast, hunting, target and utility, it would be the 03A3 Springfield, with a clean US M1917 coming in a strong second choice. The .30-'06 is never a mistake,

[alamogunr]

PS,

When I suggested the Savage, it is not because I own one. I nearly bought one but decided the Howa was a better gun and I found one on sale at a price I could not walk away from. I still think the Savage is one of the best buys out there.

I am an old man. I remember when years ago the mil-surps had their place, but the price was right (.303's were going for $15 and M98's for $50 back then!). Most are not easy to scope, and the triggers are not good. Brass for some is not cheap. They are heavy etc etc. Not much appeal unless the nostalgia factor is important to you.

I doubt a modern gun will give you any issues with "sustained fire". A bolt gun is not the best choice in that scenario anyway, but that is a different topic.

BTW, a couple of years ago I bought a new HB Model 700 for under $400 during a Black Friday sale. It was the basis for my "sniper" rifle. Keep on the lookout at places like CDNN for good deals on new guns.

Cold hard logic is conspicuously absent from most gun purchases. I know...I am guilty of it. In the last few years I have sold over 20 guns that at one time I "needed". All were good guns, some were shot very little, some not at all, none were really needed.

One last thought. Give some thought to a .30/30 lever action. For sustained fire it will be faster than a bolt gun, brass is easy to get and it will deliver about as much ballistics with cast as most mil-surps. It can be topped up during lulls in firing without the need for magazines or stripper clips. It does not yell tacti-cool, or militia, but it is a decent "assault" rifle and it is easy to carry/handle. It is about as accurate as most mil-surps as well. I have three of them LOL. The bulk of my "cheap" rifle shooting is done with .357 lever actions. It is nice to run hundreds of rounds at a time on a progressive and use a few grains of pistol/shotgun powder per round.

Good luck with your quest!

I believe it was Frank Marshall in The Fouling Shot that referred to the lever action rifle as the Appalachian Assault Rifle.

[mac60]

Generally, I'm not seeing the prices for any milsurp rifles coming down. Look what Classic firearms is listing No. 4 mkI rifles for.

https://www.classicfirearms.com/enfield-rifle-4-mk1-bolt-action

The last Mosin 91/30 I bought - I paid $79.95 for. Look what J&G is listing Mosin 91/30 rifles for.

http://www.jgsales.com/mosin-nagant-91-30-round-receiver-rifle,-7.62x54r,-1941-izhevsk,-g-vg,-c-r,-used.-p-100661.html

The last Vz24 I bought - I paid $179.95 for. J&G again.

http://www.jgsales.com/mosin-nagant-91-30-round-receiver-rifle,-7.62x54r,-1941-izhevsk,-g-vg,-c-r,-used.-p-100661.html

I'm just not seeing the prices on milsurps going down at all.

[Soundguy]

Agreed... I used to buy Turk mausers for 40$, now... A savage axis is cheaper than a good+ m38

[mac60]

Agreed... I used to buy Turk mausers for 40$, now... A savage axis is cheaper than a good+ m38



Ah - those were the days. 5 fers $150.

[Soundguy]

Yup, mosins too

[Earlwb]

I would think that any of the old black powder cartridge guns were the best for cast bullets. Mainly because they used lead bullets with no jackets. So casting bullets and using them would be no problem. Plus there are many different examples and calibers to choose from too. The 11mm Mauser, .43 Egyptian, 45-70, etc. But in the 1880's on to the early 1900's there were quite a few different kinds of rifles around 8mm caliber that worked pretty good with cast bullets and black powder too. The old 8mm Steyr using the 7.92x57 cartridge is one example or the 8mm Kropaschek is another.

[Soundguy]

Its been mentioned a few times, but 45-70 is fun ti shoot, you can load it down if wanted with trail boss or others, and its super easy with cast lead.

[junkbug]

I will put my vote for Yugoslavian Mauser with the best bore you can find. It really doesn't mater what variation. They are fairly affordable, and 8mm brass is not too expensive.You can also fashion it from 30-06 brass.

If you can actually see and compare bore conditions and the way the crown looks, Turkish Mausers are also a good value.

[beemer]

I looked at the Mauser page on the J&G site, the prices are unbelievable. Are these rifles really selling at this price ? A plain old used Enfield at $700 is unreal, not long ago one in the wrap didn't bring that much. I really suspect that they are fishing.

If this is the case a Savage Axis looks pretty good even if they are uuugly. I am sure they shoot good and would outlast me.

Dave

[john.k]

There seems to a collectables craze sweeping the nation.If you think gun prices are steep,hows a $1000 for a old Harley headlight grab ya......on ebay.Or $1000 for a weathered speedo ,or $400 for a pressed tin toolbox.Enough of that,whatever you buy for cast make sure it has a mint barrel.Im also inclined to recomend 8mm,cause its easier to have success with cast in a bigger bore.Add the two,Yugo Mauser.The Mauser type rifling works better with cast than 5 groove enfield.If I had my druthers,Id pick 8mm in a 30" barrel.One gun that fits and doesnt bring much is the Portugese 8mm.Vergeuro.Usually in nice condition,no interest to Mauser types,usually cheap.

[fa38]

03A3 Remington because of the rear sight and long neck on the 30-06.
Next would be South American Mausers in 7x57. Smaller case and a long neck.