Bullet help 45/70

[bearboy1066]

I have reloaded for 50 yrs and have always been able to develop accurate load for center fire rifles. I have met my match in a Pedersoli 1874 Sharps. Kelley Soule rear ,hooded front with aperture inserts and level. Groups best at 3 in. 538 gr cast,500 gr cast 405 gr jacketed. Varget, 4198,5744. Sand bag and bunny ears.
i am not the shot i once was but still do well with aperture sights on 03 Springfield and 94 Winchester as well as scopes.
Gotta be loads or rifle . Bought the Pedersoli after reading about barrel quality so that leaves bullets or powder. Everyone says 5744 is the way to go for 45/70. That leaves bullets. Any help appreciated.

[NSB]

I owned three Pedersoli 45-70s and each of them shot the Rem 405g JSP exceptionally well. They would shoot 1moa with Rel7, 4198, 2400, or 5744. I also own a Win High Wall and it does the same. This caliber is the least fussy caliber I've ever loaded for. Just about everything shoots well in it. I can tell you that this type of gun is very prone to POI movement due to any downward pressure put on the stock while shooting the gun. Cast bullets must be the correct size for the bore or they will not shoot. Your Pedersoli will have to have .459-.460 bullets in order to shoot well. Using .458 or less will result in poor accuracy. Make sure you're using an aperture front and rear for best accuracy.

[MT Chambers]

There are many 500+ grain molds for long range work, Lyman makes a nice Postell design, Saeco, P. Jones, Hoch, Boomer, Brooks, etc. cast 20-1 with a good bp lube and a case full of real Black Powder.

[country gent]

On the cast bullets cast 20-1 or so lead tin 16-1 or 10-1 may work also. Size to .460 with a good lube SPG, or emmerts improved work well in this cartridge. Load to around 1150-1200 fps range with the bigger bullets. Overall length should put the bullet just off the rifling to start .005-.010 makes for easier loading. This should shoot well for you.

My Pedersoli long range sharps in 45-70 has a 34" 1-18 twist half round barrel. I shoot Black Powder thru it ( Olde Ensforde 2F) a compressed load with the 535 grn Lyman postell bullet or a old west 550 grn bullet and both loads are very accurate. More than capable of cleaning rams at 500yds. The 550 really rocks them LOL. I haven't done a lot of work with Smokeless powders in 45-70 but they will perform with just a little work and testing.

[Larry Gibson]

bearboy1066

Obviously your not looking at BPCR loads with smokeless powders so I suggest a GC bullet or cast your PB's ones out of a good ternary alloy such as 94/3/3 to #2 alloy. Best will be to use a GC bullet though if you push above 1400 fps if best accuracy is wanted. Even then the GC'd bullet at lower velocities most often give the best accuracy.

[marlinman93]

Very hard to say what to size the bullets to in your Pedersoli without slugging the bore! I sure can't tell from my computer, but I can tell you that I've had good luck going .001" over whatever the bore slugged at.
I've not found one alloy to be more prone to leading than another. I've fired everything from 30:1 to 15:1 sized the same .001" over and not gotten leading or accuracy issues if the bullet fit the bore. Only exceptions have been old bores that are less than perfect, and that's always an issue.
I would try a very tight oiled patch down the bore slowly pushed through end to end, so you can feel if there is any restriction in the bore anywhere. A restriction can create a choked area and after passing through a restriction the bullet may immediately begin to lead up the bore as it travels through the larger part of the bore.
Unsure of the twist rate that your Pedersoli bore has, but if it's slower than 1:18" those heavy bullets might not be the best choice. Might consider a cast bullet in that same 405 range.

[NSB]

Slugged all three of my Pedersoli's and they were all .4575". Uncanny how they were held to such tight tolerances, but Pedersoli has all state-of-the-art CNC equipment in their plant and are known to produce exceptionally high quality barrels. Slugging it won't hurt, but I'd be surprised if you got a different number.

[Bad Ass Wallace]

Having worked with my collection of Pedersoli Sharps for over 20 years, including competing at World Creedmoore matches, I feel that I have squeezed the best out of them.

Firstly, slugging the bore tells you very little, other than you should have used a cerrosafe chamber cast instead. Pedersoli barrels are well made BUT also have progressive depth rifling; that is, the bore is 0.450/458" with rifling that is 0.004" deep each side except at the chamber it is only 0.00325" deep, tapering 0.0015"over the length of the barrel.

I have a Paul Jones 545gn x 0.459" boolit that was made for my Pedersoli rifle from a chamber cast. Most factory loading dies have neck expanders of 0.454" and you need one at least to match your boolit size. I use a 0.459" expander from CH4D

https://i.imgur.com/6KviTv1.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/E7vhjh2.jpg

[1Hawkeye]

Bearboy, I agree you might need to slug your bore and correct the bullet diameter but here are a couple of other things to check.
Does the front sight insert move around in the sight? this can cause larger groups and make you think you got a wandering zero.
The other thing to check is the rear sight is it moving in recoil this could do the same thing.
A couple of other powders you could try just in case your barrel is powder finicky are imr 3031 and if you can find some sr 4759.
The Pedersoli I had wasn't picky it would shoot anything from a 300gr to a 535gr postel.
Good Luck

[Soundguy]

I also bet a GC design, and something in a Lyman #2 alloy might fly better.

[725]

I'd probably keep it down to upper trap door loads with 3031 (my favorite). GC'd even thought it might not require it. (Seat 'em square). Lubed with Ben's Red and finish off with Ben's LL has always worked for me. We had a group buy many moons ago for a 460-420 mold. It's a dandy. Has a big meplat, but if you keep it at a reasonable distance, it, again, has worked for me. Good luck.

[bearboy1066]

I have been using .458 bullets 20:1 spg lube. Bullets seated just short of rifling. I touch only the butt stock and have the set trigger adjusted to about 1 lb. The front insert is tight the rear sight, Kelley, will move in recoil.
So far 5744 at about 25gr has been most accurate 3 in .Have ordered 5 bullet weights sized .459 from 405 to 535. The only powder mentioned I don't think i have is R7 . Intend spending Sunday afternoons after church finding the best loads. For some reason I have preferred the heavier bullets. Perhaps some 405s with 2400 or unique would be fun. Thanks for all the help.

[bearboy1066]

207136 10 shot groups

[marlinman93]

Your attachment comes up as "invalid link".

As for a Cerrosafe cast telling more than slugging the bore, I sure haven't found that to be true myself. I do a Cerrosafe cast of every gun's chamber to ensure the chamber is as marked, and see what the transition from chamber to rifling looks like. But a Cerrosafe casting wont tell me what the bore or groove size it a few inches down the bore, let alone near the muzzle.
A combination of a Cerrosafe casting, and slugging the bore will tell me everything I hope to know about a rifle, so I can properly size the bullet.

[Ramjet-SS]

I have fantastic results from an accurate 460 grain CG WFN over a dose of Unique. 1.5" at 100 yards from a Encore 45-70 rifle Barrel.

[Bigslug]

While not strictly traditional, the RCBS 405 FN gas check is probably a good "control" bullet that seems to shoot well for just about everybody out of just about everything.

[bearboy1066]

I appreciate all the suggestions. I used 5 bullet weights in.458 from 405 gc to 545 Postell with 5744,26 and 27 gr. Best group 1.77 at 1257 fps to 1280 with 26 gr and 500 gr bullet. All 27 gr charges shot larger groups up to 3.240. I will next use 24.5 and 25 gr charges and fine tune from there . I have never been content with a rifle that will not shoot sub M.O.A.