Best bear defense for a woman

[azrednek]

I'm trying to advise a woman for the best defense against bears, black and grizzly. She has had minimul shooting experience. I'm currently attempting to persuade her to professional training. Being an Arizona resident I've encouraged her to look into Thunderbird Acadamy about a two hour drive.

She's currently involved in building a house in rural Montana. Area residents have advised her black bears are common and occasionally a Grizzly. There is also danger from Mountin Lions and even aggressive territorial Elk and Moose during the rut.

She has shoulder problems resulting from an auto accident. A 12 ga was to painful for her. At a recent outing she rapid fired a pump 20ga with buck and slugs, it was painful and she refused to continue. She handled a 44 mag Redhawk with a 7"+ barrel but only managed 3 shots from a 4" S&W 41 and 2 shots from a 4" S&W 44 before calling it quits. Her handgun shooting at 15 yards was all over the target.

She's gotten some bad advice, an Ar-15 and a Montana gun shop almost talked her into a 7" Super Blackhawk for apx $900. I know the key is proper training but she's determined to buy a handgun.

I'm hoping a board member has some actual experience in bear country and can relay some useful advice. Between her and her husband running a business then back and forth from Phoenix to Montana. Spare time for training and most of all practice is tight. Any advice will be appreciated. Her husband also lacks shooting skills or experience.

Edit: Should have mentioned bear spray. Due to the almost constant wind in the area. Locals are weary of using bear spray.

[W.R.Buchanan]

If she isn't willing to get trained and learn how to shoot, then I would recommend some track shoes and only going out in the woods with fat friends.

When you get people who aren't willing to spend the time necessary to learn something that they have no clue about, the best thing you can do is smile and let them find advice elsewhere.

Been there and done that about 500 times and the results are always the same. They never listen and they always have a lame excuse as to why they won't listen.

Randy

[Bzcraig]

If she isn't willing to get trained and learn how to shoot, then I would recommend some track shoes and only going out in the woods with fat friends.

When you get people who aren't willing to spend the time necessary to learn something that they have no clue about, the best thing you can do is smile and let them find advice elsewhere.

Been there and done that about 500 times and the results are always the same. They never listen and they always have a lame excuse as to why they won't listen.

Randy

My thoughts exactly! Or simply don't move.

[kens]

A similar discussion went around the campfire some years ago, except it was not about bears, but rather bad guys.
After a whole evening of talking, and a cooler of beers, the final outcome was quite simple.
One of the simplest guns of all, so simple, even the most modest lady could use it.
Just like in a spaghetti western.
It was a lever rifle, .44mag.
Think about it, .44mag is recommended in revolver for such bears, and the rifle version is even more power, and less recoil, because it is shoulder fired.
Not to mention that a FULL tube is on the order of 14 rounds of .44mag
That is a whole lot of firepower come to think of it. !!!!
If .44mag is still too much recoil, then use .44special.

[RPRNY]

A slow, fat partner.

[texasnative46]

azredneck,

Imo, "bear country" is NO place for the untrained and/or very fearful.
(IF I was going to face an aggressive bear & a 12/20 gauge with buckshot wasn't an option, I'd want my WWI-era Model 1917 S&W revolver with 6 heavy for caliber, lead semi-wadcutter, CBs loaded into the .45Auto Rim case.)

yours, tex

[Greg S]

12ga Binelli M3, 20ga quality auto. Bear spray is restricted to the distance it sprays out to, kinda like letting a guy wielding a knife get within 20 paces. The gas system on the M3 really takes the romp outta slug and buckshot loads.

[9.3X62AL]

Your student's needs--expectations--and willingness to apply herself to the task at hand are not in sync. She should stay in AZ until she gets real. That Benelli M3 x 20 gauge sounds like a fine idea to me.

[Idaho45guy]

I live in black bear country and cougar country and wolf country and go hiking/hunting occasionally in Grizzly country which is about 40 miles East of my house near the Montana border. I bought a Ruger Blackhawk Bisley 5.5" in .45 Colt (my avatar pic) for Grizzly country. For everywhere else, I carry a Glock G29 in 10mm. But I'm 6'2" and just under 300lbs.

Even with my size, I find the recoil of the bear loads in my BH to be punishing. The G29 is much more forgiving. But, it is still a chunky pistol for women.

My dad has a Marlin lever action in .44 Mag that I shot earlier this summer and I was amazed at just how punishing it was to shoot.

My suggestion is for her to get bear spray. I know, I know; guns are more fun, but the facts are that bear spray is more effective. For Grizzlies, that is her best option. For Cougar, wolves, and pesky black bears, then a lever action .357 Magnum. I had a Marlin 1894C and my wife and kids loved shooting it. I'd let them practice with it using .38 special rounds and it was like a .22. Even with hotter .357 Magnum rounds, it was not bad at all and totally manageable by my teens and 5'2" wife.

Plus, cougars and wolves are smart as heck. They recognize that a human with a long gun is not to be messed with.

[lar45]

MY vote is for a double action revolver. Revolvers are simple to operate. Pull the trigger and they go bang.
A buddy of mine has a Taurus Tracker in 41 mag. It's ported, has a soft rubber grip, and is fairly pleasant to shoot. It's light, handy and very packable.
Another option might be the GP-100 in 44 Special.
As a bare minimum, maybe think about a 357 mag loaded with some heavy 180gn hard cast...
With the 357 she could practice with 38 spl to get familiar with the gun as long as she doesn't go afield with the 38's loaded in it.
Make sure that she has some good hard cast bullets. Leave the JHPs alone.
She could practice with some standard velocity stuff that is comfortable to shoot. Then load some heavies for packing. Shoot a couple of them to just make sure that they shoot to point of aim...

I think the key is to get her something that she can handle, shoot straight and is affordable to practice with regularly.

Here's a crazy thought. Get the 4" 500S&W and load it with Buffalo Bores light 500 JRH with the 440s at 975fps. The gun is heavy, weighs almost 5#, that will help with recoil. It's ported, that will help with recoil. That .500" 440 even at 975fps should make a hole all the way through anything and everything. Galco makes a great holster for the 4" you can carry cross draw or strong side...

[M-Tecs]

While far from ideal an AR15 with 62 grain Barnes solid coppers will do a number on all black bears and mountain loins. Three or four solid hits on brown bear are better than zero hits from a caliber that the shooter is afraid of. Her first gun needs for be something she can handle and is fun for her to shoot.

While this is not what they carry for bear defense I know some Eskimo's that routinely shoot both brown and polar bears with .223's. Same for Caribou and Moose.

[Whiterabbit]

If the woman is anything like my wife, she could use her sharp tongue to cut the bear into shreds. Pretty sure she could make the bear regret he dared cross her path in the woods.

[Hickory]

I think they will be alright.
No matter where you live on this planet, they're are no safe places.
Being observant, vigilant and cautious will go a long way to avoid many potential problems.
They should think of themselves as a young and naive couple living in New York during the French & Indian War, 15 miles from anyone.







I think I forget the purple fonts.

[GhostHawk]

I have to agree with idahoguy.

Better a smaller caliber with less recoil that she will actually shoot enough to become proficient in than a larger caliber that she won't shoot until she has to.

For me I would encourage rifle over pistol.
If she wants to carry, get her a Glock in 9mm. Good enough to pop one off in the air warning the bear to back off. And still leave many ready to go.

But really until they are ready to take the dangers seriously they really should not move into harms way.

[Idaho45guy]

Not familiar with Thunderbird Academy as when I lived in AZ and needed a class to get my CCW, I used Gunsite. For a $125 class fee, they taught everything a new shooter needed to be competent; drawing and holstering techniques, proper grip and stance, and trigger control. They also went over gun safety, gun laws, etc. Instructors were great and the few women in the class had a positive experience. Class included range time as well. At first I was bitter that I had to take a class to get a CCW, but it was a great experience and well worth the fee.

But, since she is intent on getting a handgun and can't handle a handgun that will offer protection against Grizzlies, then she had better learn to avoid Grizzlies. The biggest gun I would recommend for her is a S&W 686 or a Ruger GP100 with a 4" barrel in .357 Mag. That would be fine against cougars, wolves, and black bears, be simple to use, and she can shoot .38 spl in it for practice.

In fact, a friend of mine wanted to buy her husband a pistol for him to use while hiking and riding horses in the woods in Eastern Oregon. They are both novice shooters. I recommended a S&W 686 w/ 4" barrel and that's what they bought. They are both very happy with it.

[Omega]

With adrenalin, she will not even notice the pain. She managed 3 shots out of a 4", in practice, she can manage the rest in an emergency. I'd steer her toward something like a Redhawk or S&W 629, practice with some light .44 specials and a few .44 mags now and then to know the difference. With a nice chest rig, she can walk around with confidence in any environment.

[Lloyd Smale]

if its a handgun and she doesn't want a semi auto and doesn't like recoil id consider a single or double action 44 spec with no longer then a 5 inch barrel and some good keith bullets at about 8-900 fps. I shot a 1000 lb cow buffalo with a 4 inch single action 44 spec ruger clements built for me on an old model 357 frame with a cast 250 grain bullet at 900 fps. It went in behind the front shoulder and came out the other side. Buffalo took two steps and fell over dead. Granted its not a gun id choose to normaly hunt buffalo. I was out at the buddys game farm shooting pigs that he wanted culled and he offered me a buffalo at a price I couldn't pass up and it was the gun I had. Recoil in a 4 5/8s single action or a 4 inch da is milder then a 357 and with MUCH less muzzle blast which is what probably scares more women then recoil. Same could be done with a down loaded 44 mag, 45 colt.

[Bigslug]

A 4" .357 loaded with a heavy solid or soft point is probably going to be her best bet, as it's something she could practice a lot with at lower .38 levels, and "come game time", she wouldn't even hear it go off or feel the recoil from the hot stuff.

The thing she's got to understand is that it's probably going to take a shot through the nasal canal into the brain to keep her shot from being "the last great act of defiance", as any cardiovascular shot is likely to take 10 seconds plus to have any telling effect. A determined bear can do all manner of unspeakable things in ten seconds.

A friend who worked with me in gun shops for several years spent two years prospecting in Alaska and his constant companion was a Mossberg 500 loaded with 1.25 ounce magnum slugs. He'd witnessed these animals firsthand at length, and once when asked about his "ideal" handgun for griz, he explained that a 9mm Glock is light to carry, won't rust in harsh conditions, and is reliable and powerful enough that you can count on it to end your suffering once the pain from the bear mauling becomes too much to handle. He didn't have much faith in even the big handguns for the task...

[725]

Post #2 speaks the truth. She can't buy her way out of the issue. Many good suggestions here, but only if she gets in the game. Fear of the shotgun or pistol is nothing compared to fear she will experience when she faces her mortality. I can only assume her shotgun shooting experience was all from the shoulder fire position. Those things can be fired very effectively from the hip. A good semi, as has been noted, could end the encounter problem she fears. Cut and finish the stock to a convenient length for her size, train with sub-sonic ammo or light field loads, and fill 'er up with the good stuff for the real thing.

[Jedman]

I seethe lady rangers in Yellowstone carrying the large size can of bear spray. I would think it would be more effective than a handgun.

Jedman

[MUSTANG]

Key to the issue as some have cited is acknowledgement of the hazards in the environment and willingness to equip and train with available/selected tools to overcome the hazard.

If the woman wants to live in a beautiful but hazardous environment:

1. and does not want to train with a heavy caliber firearm, then select a lesser desirable caliber that she will train for (AR platforms, .38's/357's, 9mmm etc.. Classic example would be the small calibers popular with the ladies in cities from the 1880' to 1930's. These are not optimum, but if they fit the constraints of the Lady, better than nothing.

2. and does not want to train with firearms, then Bear Spray is an option. In my opinion it is a much lesser option for reasons others have cited plus more. Once again a better option than nothing, but she needs to train to use it. The Bear Spray industry does very well at $30 to $50 per canister - with strong advocacy/requirement by our Environmentally Centrist (Tree Huggers) Park Service, Forest Service, etc...


3. Many packers, campers, etc.. have Bear Spray and assume in a crisis they can use it. If they have not trained with it, in all probability they will freeze up and not use the Bear Spray, or be ineffective in it's use. To translate the same human reaction to a City Condition, a variety of organizations (Red Cross for one ,as I just heard one of their ads on radio) advocate for training family members for reaction to fire alarms and fires and have recurring family drills on how to respond to a fire. In a fire one normally would have a minute to several minutes to react. In the case of a Bear Attack it's going to be a couple of seconds based on most reports (by the survivors, not the arm chair critiques over the non-survivors). Practice and drills result in a reaction based on "Muscle Memory/Habit", not a thoughtful deliberate reaction.

Key to the answer is acknowledgment and acceptance of the environment, selecting a tool/s to address the danger within the constraints, and having the training/practice necessary to use the tool/s should the need arise.

Personally I prefer to carry either my Kimber or Springfield 1911 when out and about in the Woods and feel confident with them should an animal attack (4 or 2 footed); yet I mostly carry a Beretta 32 Tomcat when in the Town/City - not because it's the best caliber for dealing with a problem (2 footed?) , rather because it's small enough to always fit into a jeans/shirt/coat pocket and I have a tool with me all the time, not back in the vehicle or house. I leave the Tomcat at the house when I leave "Civilization" because I have and am willing to use better tools for the environment.

[MT Gianni]

I would advise her to put her money into bear spray and a trained companion dog. It must be large enough and aggressive enough to keep animals away and she cannot be attached enough to value her life over her dogs.

[ReloaderFred]

We live in black bear country, and can't even put the trash out the night before pickup, or they'll get into it and make a big mess. My wife walks the dogs daily, small little yapper critters (Shelties). She carries her Colt Detective Special and one of those cans of compressed air that power an air horn, like small boaters and crazy football fans use. She's encountered several bears on her walks (my knees preclude me going with her on the hills around our house anymore) and the air horn has worked to scare all of them away when they don't run naturally.

The only incident we had when I was still able to go on the dog walks several years ago was one ornery old boar that claimed the ridge we were on as his own. He laid in the brush until we got about 20 yards from him and then proceeded to "posture" back and forth in front of us. "Posturing" is when a bear walks slowly back and forth in front of you, looking over his shoulder at you. He's letting you know you're trespassing on his land. I had a 9mm in my hand, and the more that bear slowly walked back and forth, the smaller that pistol got. He finally went off into the brush after a few minutes and we waited for about 10 minutes more to make sure he was gone, but he wasn't. He waited for us to get within about the same distance as before and started his little routine all over again.

Both times we had slowly backed up to put some distance between us and him, which ended up being about 40-50 yards, and those little yapper critters we were walking stayed behind us and never let out a peep. Anyway, the second time the old boar "postured" for about another 5 minutes or so and then he went off over the side of the ridge and we were able to get back home, which is only about 1/4 mile from where this happened. I started carrying my 10mm after that, but we didn't encounter this particular old boar again. The game troopers suggested going after him with a 12 ga. with slugs, and I would have if he'd continued to be a problem, but like I said, we never encountered him again.

Bottom line is, at least for the black bears we have around here, the air horn has worked several times. I can't guarantee it will work every time, but it has for at least a half dozen casual encounters when they didn't run off.

Hope this helps.

Fred

[atr]

I would recommend her staying out of the woods, or the pepper spray option. It does not sound like she wants to invest the time it takes to become comfortable or proficient with a side arm.
I have encountered lots of bears in my hikes/hunts; blacks, big browns and one grizzly and even with a loaded .357 or .44M on my hip I know that a pissed-off bear will usually come out the winner. It is a whole different ball game when you are standing out in the middle of nowhere eyeballing a bear 50 yds away, not to mention the one that suddenly comes out of the bushes.

[MUSTANG]

In case some reading the thread are unaware of the reality of the topic, a couple of articles below.

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/grizzly-bear-attack-todd-orr-montana-twice-bloody-facebook-video/

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2016/06/30/bear-kills-biker-in-montana-marking-the-seventh-grizzly-death-since-2010-in-the-northern-rockies/?utm_term=.d5f420323d4d

http://www.spokesman.com/blogs/outdoors/2016/sep/28/two-montana-bowhunters-injured-grizzly-bear-attacks/

Wikipedia is always an interesting place to look for data on topics, but not necessarily comprehensive. Note the their report does not list some of the attacks as posted above.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fatal_bear_attacks_in_North_America

[Texas by God]

I have no experience with bears but I would recommend a Trapper 30-30 with a recoil pad.
If she can't hande that then use a 9mm and or bear spray and yell a lot.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

[reddog81]

Start her off with shooting .38 special or maybe even a 22. You can move up from there. There's no need to start with a 44 Magnum even if that is the desired end result.

[9.3X62AL]

Monday mornings were (and are) trash days at the big mobile home park my Mom now lives in north of Beaumont. About 2 A.M. every Monday morning, the calls would start coming in to our dispatch center about "Bears making a mess" or "Bears chasing my pets" during the time I worked as a patrol deputy in that area (mid-1980s). Spotlight, light bars, or car horns didn't faze them much. What DID run them off was opening & closing the mic button on the PA system a few times. THAT bugged them, for some reason. John Muir's description of bears as being "Shaggy freebooters" has always seemed apt to me.

[Kosh75287]

12ga Binelli M3, 20ga quality auto. Bear spray is restricted to the distance it sprays out to, kinda like letting a guy wielding a knife get within 20 paces. The gas system on the M3 really takes the romp outta slug and buckshot loads. This.

If she insists on a sidearm, find the most powerful caliber that she can empty into a gallon milk-jug at 7-10 yards. Load it with cast SWCs, as close to 950 f/s as she can tolerate. The S&W .41 Magnum you mention that she shot, so loaded, might be tolerable for her. If she gets one into an agitated bear's skull from underneath, the bear's time on earth is limited.

[Thumbcocker]

Spray or a SXS shotgun with a sling. Simple to load and unload, safe, many options on ammo, much easier to learn than a handgun, potent at short range.

[texasnative46]

To All,

IF she can handle it, I recommend a SxS double-barrel shotgun loaded with 0/#1/#4 buckshot for bears, puma & other 2-footed or 4-footed predators.
(The DB is EASY for a neophyte shooter to master & is really versatile as a firearm for many purposes. = MOST new shooters will be fully competent with a DB with 2 or less hours of professional training/range time.)

just my OPINION, tex

[44MAG#1]

A GlockM20 10MM would be good. Even with the enhanced FL's the recoil is not bad. 16 rounds. Easily packable. Loaded with Buffalo Bore or Underwood 220 gr hardcast would be good.

[Kestrel4k]

[...] Her handgun shooting at 15 yards was all over the target.
Quoted above is what I feel is the most significant issue. My initial thought was a .357 revolver w/ the Buffalo Bore 158gr HC .38Spl 'Outdoorsman' loading as a lower choice coming down from their 180gr HC .357, i.e. obtaining the absolute minimum in recoil.

But if she's not absolutely committed to a comprehensive, extensive regimen to work on handgun proficiency, I really think that a .357 or .44Mag lever action rifle is the only viable firearm alternative.

If she won't obtain a substantial improvement in shot placement from a handgun, all the handgun commentary is unfortunately moot.

[Kosh75287]

BTW, ANYone who thinks humans are incapable of natural chemical defense have never smelled me after being chased by a feral animal, nor after I've almost stepped on a rattlesnake!

[Whiterabbit]

I know the key is proper training but she's determined to buy a handgun.


I rather think this is the most significant issue. Motivation is everything.

I think my suggestion would be to regularly visit a rental range and try a series of firearms. Starting with 38 special and moving up until she finds a large diameter caliber she can shoot comfortably. Going with the largest she's comfy with. Not sure if I would advise a speeding smaller cal over a large diameter slower bullet. For example, 357 mag over 45 acp? I'd probably take the 45 acp if shooting comfort were the same.

Anyways, once she has identified the "biggest" she is comfortable shooting, both in caliber and in cartridge, I would advise she buy a gun she likes in it. Wouldn;t matter to me if she liked a single action revolver best, DA, or a semi-auto. Again, she's gotta pick what she is comfortable with.

If you or anyone else harrangue her into getting some 44 mag or whatever semi-auto when she wants X-Y-Z DA revolver (for example), then she's not gonna shoot it, not gonna carry it, and your (not you personally) attitude will turn off her motivation, and that can't be allowed to happen.

After she picks her gun of choice, it's practice practice practice. Sooner or later her own motivation will guide her to get training. But if that doesn't happen for years, at least in the mean time she will have a gun she wants, in a cartridge she is comfy shooting, that she knows is the biggest she can handle, and has been shooting it for awhile developing a nice muscle memory for when she needs to fall back on that experience in a panic.

That's my true advice.

[jetinteriorguy]

I think Kestrel4K is on to something. A Lever in 44 mag or even 454 Casull would probably work for her with an extra recoil pad for comfort. I have a Henry BBS in .41 mag and even with full house loads it's very pleasant and accurate, so even though the bigger magnums would be more recoil, I would guess they would be manageable.

[dbosman]

Ruger .44 carbine. Yes, hard to find.
Elmer Keith's classic .44 mag load, adjusted for todays, Alliant 2400.
Minimal recoil for a .44 mag. Extreme accuracy for such a light, low recoil rifle. With no lever to get in the way of things. The only comment I'll add is for those concerned with lead in the mechanism, clean your guns.

[bob208]

first she has to get her mind around a gun and using it.

I would say try a 20 ga. semi-auto with a rubber recoil pad. also remind her when she has to use it she will not feel the recoil. If she insists on a hand gun then the only way is a .357. heavy loads for real shooting. .38 spl. for training. mainly for price I don't think she sounds like a hand loader so she will be using bought ammo only. the .38-357 can be bought anywhere.

[Multigunner]

If a shoulder injury prevents firing a shotgun try the other shoulder. If that doesn't work try firing from the hip.
At close range one can keep their rounds pretty well centered, especially on a large target.
I'd use rifled slugs only.

I was test firing a lightweight Remington autoloader once and just cut loose five rounds at a nearby tree point shooting from the hip. The strikes were all close to the centerline, each a few inches about the other. That many 12 ga slugs hitting that close together in a couple of seconds would be devasting to anything that breathes air and walks on land.

[Mr_Sheesh]

Why 4" barrel on wheelguns instead of 6"? Just wondering because of more moment of inertia (so more accuracy if she's aiming, instead of flinch-yanking the trigger, which could WELL be going on here) and more sight radius; Also the "Bang!" is 2" further away from her which could help.

When I was up around Chicken / Tok AK I was carrying the old Ithaca M37 with BRI saboted slugs and 00 buck, the sow we had by us knew we were there (and left the occasional calling card in our camp while we were out), but never messed with us; The white-footed assassins (killer micro gnats) and camp robber Jays were the real pains / threats. But around this state I'd at least carry a Commander or Ruger SBH, something in case a black bear has a BAD ATTITUDE day and decides to pick a fight. Happened to someone I know, they were "treed" up a rock wall for an hour or so...

Autoloader shotgun could also work well, but if she wants a handgun (which IS nice because you can always carry it holstered, no sling, no "It's in the way so I'll just set it down for a minute here") help her test drive a bunch and see what she likes and keep searching for a good answer for her? 44 Mag can be downloaded (handloaded softer), definitely, if she finds one she wants; Same for other calibers. Start her out easier, get her practicing and used to it, go from there?

[Bzcraig]

I would advise her to put her money into bear spray and a trained companion dog. It must be large enough and aggressive enough to keep animals away and she cannot be attached enough to value her life over her dogs.

Great suggestion!

[Ramjet-SS]

A man....................ok just kidding 20 gauge with slug-00buck-slug slug slug in a defensive shotgun with tactical sling

[RoyEllis]

Given the terms of the situation including her lack of skill & poor desire to improve said deficiency....I'd go with both the 20ga auto and track shoes recommendations. First 2 loads #9 trap followed by 3 slug loads....blind him, pray a slug accidentally finds it's mark and track shoes to run like hell when the gun's empty. JMHO......

[Minerat]

A slow, fat partner.

and a .25 acp to slow him down.:grin:

[lar45]

If we go back to the original post, then I think we need to look at a few things.
First is that she was encouraged to get some training. This is wonderful, but it doesn't say anywhere that she has refused to do so.


I'm trying to advise a woman for the best defense against bears, black and grizzly.
She has had minimal shooting experience.
This says to me that she will need a very simple to operate gun. So a double action revolver would be my choice. Pull the trigger and it will go bang. Yes a semi-auto handgun could put more rounds down range in a hurry, but if she limp wrists it she could get a jam which could put her out of the fight if she hasn't been trained on how to clear a jam in a hurry...

She has shoulder problems resulting from an auto accident. A 12 ga was to painful for her. At a recent outing she rapid fired a pump 20ga with buck and slugs, it was painful and she refused to continue.
Her physical limitations keep her from being able to fire a shotgun from the shoulder. Firing from the hip takes more skill and practice, so I think that a shotgun is out of the running.

She handled a 44 mag Redhawk with a 7"+ barrel but only managed 3 shots from a 4" S&W 41 and 2 shots from a 4" S&W 44 before calling it quits.
The 41 and 44 mag from a regular revolver appear to be way more than she can handle at her current level of skill and practice.
So we need something that is a little less intimidating. It would be nice to have her try a 357mag; with 38s and 357s; a 44 special, 45acp, and a 45 Colt.
Someone had a great suggestion of going to a range to rent and try some different guns. If you have anything smaller than the 41 and 44 mag for her to try, you could save her a little money, but if not, then the rental range would be a great next step.
There was another great suggestion of starting her with a 22lr and slowly move up from there.

Her handgun shooting at 15 yards was all over the target.
Maybe move her up to 7 yards until she gets some practice and confidence, then move her back to 15 and 25 yards.

I know the key is proper training but she's determined to buy a handgun.
If she is determined to buy a handgun, then lets help her to get something that she will actually be able to use and protect herself with.

Her husband also lacks shooting skills or experience.
My thought here is to have them get 2 of the same gun, caliber, model, and barrel length...
That way if one of them has to use the others gun, they will be totally familiar with it.

So what should they get? How about a pair of stainless 357 mag double action revolvers.
Stainless will probably hold up better to not being cleaned and oiled on a regular basis, which the new gun owners may not do as much as the rest of us.
357 mag would give them 3 different power levels to practice with, 38 spl, 38 +P, and 357mag. Maybe 4 levels if we include some Buffalo Bore 180 LFN https://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_list&c=162

[Plate plinker]

I would suggest a short legged fatter friend who is slow of foot.


Now really she needs practice and a good dog or two. A shotgun on a sling for walks in the forest or what ever revolver she can handle. The bigger the better.

[mozeppa]

teach her to throw hand grenades....and hit the deck.

[Mr_Sheesh]

On thinking more - Showed her a Hi Standard model 10B shotgun? Bullpup and sorta Mac-10ish format, semi auto so it should absorb some of the recoil; Not in production, sadly, and NOT free; But carries a fast 5 rounds in the tubular magazine iirc. (Not owned one; Sorta wanted one since I knew they exist tho LOL)

http://www.imfdb.org/wiki/High_Standard_Model_10

[retrobass]

A man...................

Scroll through three pages to find somebody beat me to it!

[TCLouis]

With all the restrictions/roadblocks to adequate protection, I think her best bet is a fat slow companion!

[azrednek]

Idaho45guy, I stand corrected. Gunsite is what I had in mind. I believe Gunsite is located on Cooper's Thunderbird Ranch.

A recent conversation with her father revealed she is open and even somewhat enthusiastic about professional training. Her father and I have been close friends for about 60 years. We are both avid gun people but admittingly piss-poor shooting instructors.

Her father and I with some disagreement have narrowed the handgun choices down to three. Ruger Alaskan, the new five shot S&W 44 mag and I recently added fuel to the fire by suggesting a 10 mm. She is a petite women but very headstrong and somewhat a workaholic. What ever she decides, hopefully with a competent instructor's input. I belive with her determination she will master whatever hand cannon she decides.

THX!! for everybody's input and advice.

[gray wolf]

She has had minimul shooting experience

She has shoulder problems resulting from an auto accident. A 12 ga was to painful for her. At a recent outing she rapid fired a pump 20ga with buck and slugs, it was painful and she refused to continue.

handled a 44 mag Redhawk with a 7"+ barrel but only managed 3 shots from a 4" S&W 41 and 2 shots from a 4" S&W 44 before calling it quits. Her handgun shooting at 15 yards was all over the target.

Sometimes we just have to walk away from foolishness, and this sounds like total foolishness. Some folks have an unrealistic vision of reality.
Put 10 horses on a desert, give them a water troth and the one that don't drink---dies.

[44MAG#1]

Sometimes we just have to walk away from foolishness, and this sounds like total foolishness. Some folks have an unrealistic vision of reality.
Put 10 horses on a desert, give them a water troth and the one that don't drink---dies.

I agree. Help until you see to many excuses or resistance and then write off the person as one to help.
Like someone asking for help when they see you possibly knowing more on a subject than them and then they want to argue with you on everything. If they know enough to argue with you then they don't need to be asking questions.

[MOA]

Ok, here is my two cents worth.
1. Lg can of bear spray.
2. S&W model 629 in 44 mag with a 8-1/8" barrel.

Two handed practice with 44 specials. As mentioned a quality chest holster and spray holder on a belt should work fine. I have shoulder impairment of 15 percent from a job working in a mill, but this revolver is heavy enough with the full lug to be steady and is very easily to shoot with one hand with almost no muzzle rise. The only downside to this caliber if she learns to shoot it is after two or three rounds of full load 44's unless she is planning on being outdoors and wearing ear protection her ears are really going to hurt something aweful.

[Hickory]

Yesterday, I stopped at my friends house. Before pulling off the road and into the drive I could see him cleaning leaves out of the gutter and his wife holding the ladder at the bottom.
I got out of my truck and walked to where they were working. When I got next to Mrs.G. I scared her so bad she turned and screamed and hit me 4 or 5 times before she got control of herself.
Now, if I can scare a civilized person who knows and trusts me, think of what a wild grizzly bear would do to someone if you scare them!

[Finster101]

A .410 pump with slugs would be better than a handgun that she can't hit anything with.

[robertbank]

I would advise her to put her money into bear spray and a trained companion dog. It must be large enough and aggressive enough to keep animals away and she cannot be attached enough to value her life over her dogs.

Good advice here. Bear spray in some quarters is better than a gun that misses. Besides Grizzlies take to long to bleed out. A barking dog and a can of bear spray would be all she really needs. A heavy handgun is not going to be any use for her and a smaller one just might make the situation worse. She would be well advised to take some training on how to use bear spray. When out and about it pays to let the critters know where you are. Gives then a chance to get out of your way.

Take Care

Bob

[44MAG#1]

Everyone turns and twist away from a Glock M20 10MM but if she has the strength to rack the slide it would be a good carry gun without heavy recoil.
Carrys well inside the waist band or out side carry either one.
Do people,have some kind of adversion to a 10MM or just an adversion to me?
If it is me, I couldn't care less, but don't let your disdane for me bias you from a great cartridge with decent power. Buffalo Bore 220 gr hard cast or Underwood in the same would be okay. The same brands of ammo in the 200 gr XTP at around 1250 would be good too.
And 16 rounds too for those that believe in laying down a line of fire.

[Walkingwolf]

I seethe lady rangers in Yellowstone carrying the large size can of bear spray. I would think it would be more effective than a handgun.

Jedman
That is so they can find the bear scat to track the bear. Just look for scat with seasoned with pepper.

Bear spray is limited to under 35 feet, much too late on a charging bear. I second the lever rifle in 44 mag suggestion, and a emergency boat horn. If those are out of the question then a pair of rottweilers.

[robertbank]

That is so they can find the bear scat to track the bear. Just look for scat with seasoned with pepper.

Bear spray is limited to under 35 feet, much too late on a charging bear. I second the lever rifle in 44 mag suggestion, and a emergency boat horn. If those are out of the question then a pair of rottweilers.

I guess it depends where you live. Up here the bush is so thick 35 ft maybe more than you will have before you would even see the bear. 'That said most Black's are pretty timid/shy and are more live and let live.
Don't confuse bear defense with hunting bear. A real short trapper length lever gun will get you maybe one shot off if you are lucky. Bear spray and noise are probably your two best friends in bear country. Failing the spray a .357.44mag in a revolver <4" barrel might be your best last chance. The ones I have encountered either beat a hasty retreat or just wandered off once they got a sense they were in no danger. Lots of good info out there on bears. A little common sense and noise goes a long way in keeping everyone on the same page.

A short barreled 12 gauge with slugs is what I field on the rare occasions I decide to go hiking. Not an option for the gal mentioned here though.

Take Care

Bob

[Three-Fifty-Seven]

n! ;)

[Grmps]

It sounds like she wouldn't be able to handle what would be effective in the short time she had to use it.
A 50AE would be my first choice for a hand carry but you know how it kicks. A revolver won't get enough lead out there fast enough if she's attacked and doesn't get a perfect shot off.

I would second a couple of dogs. (they will detect a bear/aggressor long before she would and it becomes a problem) and they can slow most anything down!
With dogs distracting/engaging the aggressor she would have time to get to safety or drop the aggressor with a firearm she could handle.

Had to get my 2¢ worth in.

[Three44s]

My nod even in this case goes with a .44 mag or .45 Long Colt firing revolver.

Handload for practice and then for business.

In the .45 clambering I would insist on a revolver strong enough to handle +P loads .... the Redhawk comes to mind.

Personally I load for and pack a 44 Mag Smith Mountain gun. I can and do load it for several different power levels.

I believe it was John Linebaugh’s son who hunted for and bagged a large Northern bear, grizzly or larger and downed it with a 45 Ruger with a cast boolit traveling at a sedate 1000 FPS

I have had a number of gals shoot my MG with boolits of similar weight to what Linebaugh used at around that power level and they all found it quite useful. I think that one willing to venture into “bear country” who is concerned with personal safety and wants to rely on a gun ought to consider a packable revolver of a caliber of 44 or larger and loaded with fairly heavy lead at a power level that they can handle.

It will take practice and hard work and at times .... pain but could reap big dividends If there is an encounter.

Three44s

[bassnbuck]

I would be against having a free running dog in bear country. They can quickly get in over their heads and bring the bear (or wolves) right into your lap. Not talking about trained bear hounds or even coon hounds. A local woman had this happen with wolves and spent a halve hour backed up against a tree til hubby came to the rescue. The happy ending=before the incident she was a pacifist anti gun lib. and after she bought a revolver.

[warboar_21]

I bought my wife a Remington 870 youth 20ga. She is 100 pounds on a good day. She shoots it just fine but when she shot my 12ga Beretta A300 recently she said it had less recoil than her pump. I have to agree with her observation after comparing the two.

Another option would be an AR in 450 Bushmaster, 458 Socom, or 50 Beuwolf. I have shot the 50 and the 458 and find the recoil to be similar to a 20ga.

As far as handguns go I think a 4" 357 mag would be the lightest I would carry or want my wife carrying. 180gr wfn pushed hard. Practice with 38 wadcutters until she builds up the confidence and shooting skills.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Mr_Sheesh]

Semi Auto shotguns seem to absorb some of the recoil upon firing - Helps for those of us not in the Yeti size class :grin:

[tazman]

LOL I'm not a Yeti, but I suppose I'm more Oragutan or very small gorilla. Never the less, I appreciate the reduced recoil offered bu the semi auto shotguns.
My arthritis complains about recoil enough that I am all over ways to reduce it.

[robertbank]

Bison Charge

If you guys get to it go here:

https://www.theweathernetwork.com/ca/videos/gallery/heartwarming-reunion-with-alberta-dog-found-1200-km-away/sharevideo/5643036281001

and watch the video about the fellow who got charged by a Bison up in the Yukon. He survived the Bison did not. Most of the action appears to have involved less than 10 yards.

Take Care

Bob
ps the video may not be up if you are reading this post after a day or two.

[tazman]

That guy was really shook and justifiably so. It didn't say what he shot the bison with though.

[robertbank]

That guy was really shook and justifiably so. It didn't say what he shot the bison with though.

No. Sounds like a hunting party and that would make it a rifle for sure. Those Wood Buffalo or Bison are huge animals and would be the last animal I would want to butt heads with. We have none around here. I have seen a herd of them run, and I mean run, through 5" of snow with no apparent effort on their part over in Wood Buffalo National Park just west of Ft. Smith, NWT. Fascinating when you are in your car 100 yards away. Folks who carry large heavy long barreled handgun will never get them in action before they are doing a hand to hand dance.

Take Care

Bob

[Rcmaveric]

Put 10 horses on a desert, give them a water troth and the one that don't drink---dies.

Can I steal that quote? Sounds better than mine "Can lead a horse to water, but cant make him drink. I sure as hell can drown him though."

[murf205]

Stay in the kitchen! ;)

Or as my wife says, "A woman's place is in the Mall"

[Green Frog]

OK, four pages of dancing around looking for a way to tell someone unwilling and unable to deal with the danger she perceives as possible that she shouldn't go there... so if she really wants to go, a Humvee with a gun tub mounting a Ma Deuce is probably her only choice... either that or a bunch of slow, fat, expendable companions. She needs a reality check, but then again, that may be JMO. :kidding:

[codgerville@zianet.com]

ok, four pages of dancing around looking for a way to tell someone unwilling and unable to deal with the danger she perceives as possible that she shouldn't go there... So if she really wants to go, a humvee with a gun tub mounting a ma deuce is probably her only choice... Either that or a bunch of slow, fat, expendable companions. She needs a reality check, but then again, that may be jmo. :kidding:

amen!!!

[David LaPell]

With my wife, I would be more concerned about the bear's safety.

[scattershot]

A man with a big gun, or a slow hiking buddy. Sorry, couldn’t resist.[smilie=1:

[MT Gianni]

Most of us are gun people, we shoot, practice and read about them. We should not give advice to those who have no interest in them other than the one time they might keep someone alive. That person will neither practice nor carry on a regular basis. In order to stay protected one has to want the protection bad enough to overcome all inconveniences.

[gray wolf]

Most of us are gun people, we shoot, practice and read about them. We should not give advice to those who have no interest in them other than the one time they might keep someone alive. That person will neither practice nor carry on a regular basis. In order to stay protected one has to want the protection bad enough to overcome all inconveniences.
Bravo poster--

I can say with a high degree of certainty the above post was about all that was
needed as an answer.

I have seen the wanting results without the interest or the desire to do the work attitude
many times, I have questioned myself and quietly questioned others--as to why the headlong pursuit. Is it to prove something to our-self ? when it's often obvious to many others the quest will accomplish nothing.
no desire = no results

[Texas by God]

Hike with a pike.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

[Grmps]

She could hike with a bang stick (like divers use), she may still get scratched but it might save her life?

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?342494-Why-they-carry-guns-in-Alaska!

If she doesn't want to protect herself and still wants to do this, buy her a Bible and suggest she makes her peace with God

[Mr_Sheesh]

Flame thrower could do the job?

[44MAG#1]

A Glock 10MM COULD TOO.

[Grmps]

Flame thrower could do the job?

I thought of maybe a very small, lite weight one with adjustable flame
propane would be easy BUT doesn't shoot the flame very far. on the other hand, if you created a big enough flame the attacking animal would most likely try to avoid/get away from it
Only problem, if you catch the woods on fire ...... house ......

[pmer]

A flaming bear might be bad PR for the hunting community.

How about a spear.

[fastdadio]

Well, I did a speed read through these 5 pages. Read one suggestion for the AR in .450 bushmaster. IMHO, excellent choice. Personally, I'd go M1 Garand, but doubt that's gonna happen in this case. So, here's my next best recommendation after a big bore AR;
The Mectech 10mm
https://video.search.yahoo.com/search/video?fr=mcafee&p=mechtech+10mm+hickock+45#id=1&vid=d6584e10a42c5b1b5533448e8ccea44c&action=click

[leeggen]

she should invite her ex husband along. use him as her defense, oh she will need a small cal. Pistol to shoot him in the foot. While she exits the area.
All jokes aside that is a hard question sense you don't know what bear she will confront. I would think as big as she can handle so go to a range and rent a couple different ones for her to shoot and see what fits.
CD

[pmer]

That Mectech 10mm looks pretty fun.

[fastdadio]

That Mectech 10mm looks pretty fun.
With the high cap mag, it would make for some serious close in bear medicine too. I want one in .45 acp. Wonder if it will take a steady diet of +p's

[Mr_Sheesh]

They make it for the 1911 as well; Oh joy, ANOTHER thing to put on the "Buy some day" list LOL

I've thought of making a Mauser or something into a .45 ACP or 9mm carbine, bolt gun one of those'd be fun for plinking; The semi-auto would probably be more fun though? Hmmmmmm...

[pmer]

The Rifleman had a dope bag article on the 45 ACP version. I couldn't find it in hurry but it had a positive review and did very good at 100 yds for accuracy.

But back on topic, hopefully the lady can find something that will let her get in the woods and feel reasonably safe. I have a load for my 44 Alaskan that shoots H&G 503 clones just over 1000 FPS.

[Grmps]

You think a flash-bang grenade would work?

[Mr_Sheesh]

It should, bur would be hard on her hearing too (And a 3 second delay between throwing it & it going off would be a LONG time if the bear is already charging her?) Might make as much sense to carry a blank gun as that's faster to first noise. But - Neither is guaranteed to stop the bear if it's inviting you to be its' next meal...

[Mr_Sheesh]

It should, bur would be hard on her hearing too (And a 3 second delay between throwing it & it going off would be a LONG time if the bear is already charging her?) Might make as much sense to carry a blank gun as that's faster to first noise. But - Neither option is guaranteed to stop the bear if it's "inviting you to be its' next meal"...

[Grmps]

that's where the dog (s) come to play, advanced warning system.

[AkMtnRunner]

If not already, advise her to read Stephen Herrero's book about avoiding bear encounters and attacks. Folks living in bear country can decrease their risk of bear attacks much more with proper food and waste management than anything else. It should be required reading for anyone who thinks they need a bear gun.

[charlie b]

I'm trying to advise a woman for the best defense against bears, black and grizzly. She has had minimul shooting experience. I'm currently attempting to persuade her to professional training. Being an Arizona resident I've encouraged her to look into Thunderbird Acadamy about a two hour drive.

She's currently involved in building a house in rural Montana. Area residents have advised her black bears are common and occasionally a Grizzly. There is also danger from Mountin Lions and even aggressive territorial Elk and Moose during the rut.

She has shoulder problems resulting from an auto accident. A 12 ga was to painful for her. At a recent outing she rapid fired a pump 20ga with buck and slugs, it was painful and she refused to continue. She handled a 44 mag Redhawk with a 7"+ barrel but only managed 3 shots from a 4" S&W 41 and 2 shots from a 4" S&W 44 before calling it quits. Her handgun shooting at 15 yards was all over the target.

She's gotten some bad advice, an Ar-15 and a Montana gun shop almost talked her into a 7" Super Blackhawk for apx $900. I know the key is proper training but she's determined to buy a handgun.

I'm hoping a board member has some actual experience in bear country and can relay some useful advice. Between her and her husband running a business then back and forth from Phoenix to Montana. Spare time for training and most of all practice is tight. Any advice will be appreciated. Her husband also lacks shooting skills or experience.

Edit: Should have mentioned bear spray. Due to the almost constant wind in the area. Locals are weary of using bear spray.

Considering the above I'd tell her she's better off without a gun. Sounds like she won't be able to do enough training to be able to use one in self defense.

If she persists, then recommend she meet with a professional guide from the area to train her for several months, if not longer. If she can only fire a couple of rounds at a time it will take a LONG time. Let her and her trainer pick a firearm for her.

Recommending a gun to her at this point is not a very smart thing to do.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PExlT-5VU-Y&feature=youtu.be