Dacron filler..How much is to much?

[PDshooter]

Q. I'am loading 06 springfield rounds. 25gr of IMR-4227 with a 183gr FPGC bullet(Lyman 311-41). I'am also using dacron filler about a 1/2in Dia, When do you know it's right? :-?

[StarMetal]

My dacron is in a 1/2 inch thick sheet. I cut 1/2 wide strips, then snip off how much I need and that is how much it takes to fill the space from atop the powder to just inside the neck. That way when you seat your bullet it is pushing against the dacron. You want to use a little tool fashioned from anything from a nail, allen wrench, to small screw driver to start the dacron in and seat it. Here's what you do, stand the dacron on top the case mouth and with your tool grab the end touching the case mouth and start it into the case and push it down towards the powder. You want to drag the rest of the dacron in behind it. You DO NOT want to just stuff the dacron into the case. If you weigh the piece you've cut it shouldn't weigh more then 1 to 2 tenths of a grain, maybe slightly more. Thing is don't compress it and make sure it fills the space between the top of the powder and the base of the bullet.

Joe

[beagle]

I'm using about the same amount that Joe uses. When I start seeing unburned tufts, I cut back.

I use just enough to take up the space between the powder and bullet base. It's hard to judge starting out but after a while, you get a feel for what's "right".

I don't think it's actually burning but it definitely blows apart to where you can't see it and that seems to be about the right point.

I use to shoot with a fellow and it looked like he had a shedding sheep in front of his bench. He never had any problems with what I considered too much but his accuracy wasn't the greatest either./beagle

[StarMetal]

beagle,

BruceB claims he has found dacron puffs laying on the ground in front of his shooting bench. Said they were darken by the powder but otherwise intact. I'll be dang if I can find hide or hair of mine, even after a long shooting session. I just see the shreds at the shot like you do.

Joe

[Buckshot]

............If you see any floating around after firing the shot it's too much, unless the load is very light. Otherwise it should all be consumed in firing, or such a small amount escapes the muzzle it shouldn't be readily visible.

..............Buckshot

[BruceB]

Gents;

Actually, I think what I reported was SEEING tufts blowing past me on the firing line at one of the Nevada CB Shoots. I'd never seen that before, and thought it was worth mentioning.

A great deal of my shooting is done from Der Schuetzenwagen's benchrest, and I often find many tiny shreds of dacron littering the bench when shooting into the wind. These bits don't show any signs of melting, but they are almost all very short....much shorter than when installed in the case. It would seem that the individual threads are breaking in the process of firing the shot.

As mentioned many times previously, I use the loose bagged dacron, not quilt sheets, and just enough to comfortably fill the empty space without much compression at all.

[44man]

I think the condition of what is left of the dacron hinges on the caliber and velocity. Each gun will do something different. I use a small tuft in my 45-70 revolver with 317 gr boolits at 1535 fps. I am using 4759. I find little balls of it out front that are the same size as what I put in to start with. They did not shred or burn, just dirty. It doesn't matter if there is a little more or less in the case either, just so it is close. Only want to hold the powder down. It also doesn't seem to matter if a little powder migrates into the dacron. Chrono readings stay consistant.

[David R]

I am sure this is wrong :( . I finally got some better accuracy from using only a small square of dacron in my '06. I tried filling the case. Ballistics were MUCH better, but accuracy went down the tubes. I re read the Lyman book and it said a .5 grain piece, so I cut my 1/8" sheet into 5/8" squares. I placed them over a case with 22.5 grains of 2400. I pushed down on the center of the square to the powder. There IS an air space between the powder and boolit. The dacron just keeps the powder in one place. I got smaller groups. Never did check with the crony, but smaller groups are what I am after. If te dacron doesn't go in right, I pull it out and try again. 1/2" squares are too small, they don't consistantly land on top of the powder. The end up sideways or standing up on the side of the case.

I tried a whole sheet of toilet paper, it looked like a snow storm when I fired the gun. I tried enough dacron to fill the space between the powder and boolit. With each accuracy was worse.

David

[StarMetal]

Davidr

Yup that's wrong alright. We'll be seeing pictures of your blowed up rifle someday or you telling us about the bulge you have in you chamber or barrel.
It's been written out plain and simple here not to leave an airspace. Perhaps your best avenue is not to use a filler at all. You're flirting with danger, this time you escaped and damage. It's only a matter of time before you have an accident experimenting with fillers the wrong way.

I'm harsh on you here because I don't want to see you get hurt or ruin your rifle and most of all don't want you to get others started on an unsafe practice. DO NOT LEAVE AN AIRSPACE BETWEEN THE TOP OF THE POWDER AND THE BULLET.

Joe

[JDL]

What Starmetal said in Spades.
I remember reading an artical by Ross Steyfried in which he was loading something big and British with cast. He was using a lot of polyester, like 3 grains, which would be perferable to leaving and air space but, not reccomended. -JDL

[RDub]

Hiya..

Just reading through some posts and stumbled across this one and was wondering.. if y’all ever tried Accurate Arms 5744 with your cast bullets loads?

AA5744 is truly some amazing stuff. You don’t need to use a filler with it. It will ignite under any position very well. I know some that use it for cast bullets with good results, however my only experience with it is developing some mild loads in a .300H&H and .300 WInni, using Jacketed 170gr 30-30 bullets. In both rifles I was successful in finding accurate loads with these bullets in the 2200 fps range. The groups were under 1-1/2” at 100 yds and the velocity spreads were very tight. These loads made these rifles truly ‘versitile’..

The technical staff with Accurate Arms were very eager to help out for me and I’m sure they can answer any questions you might have. http://www.accuratepowder.com/

Anyway if you have already tried AA5744 please excuse the intrusion.. [smilie=f:

[beagle]

I read that articlesas well and even though Ross is suppose to be a "guru" when it comes to loading, I kind of read that with questsions on my mind. I personally thought it was too much but you get back to the old addage, "You can't f- - - with success."/beagle


What Starmetal said in Spades.
I remember reading an artical by Ross Steyfried in which he was loading something big and British with cast. He was using a lot of polyester, like 3 grains, which would be perferable to leaving and air space but, not reccomended. -JDL

[David R]

Rdub,

I think 5744 comes in a 12 oz can and costs as much as a 16 oz can. I'm sort of thrify (el cheapo).

I am now using surplus powder. So far, so good, but it takes some learning.

David

[swheeler]

XMP5744 comes in 1 pound cans and 8 pound jugs.
I think maybe the question should be Filler, how much is not enough?
The filler I use is 1/2 inch sheet batting,(WM polyester), I cut it into approx. 1/2 to 5/8 inch squares, when you cut it it automatically fluffs up substancially. I call them poly wads, although they arenot a wad, nothing wadded about them. As to weight, mine weight almost 1.5 grs+or- . I use this same size wad in almost all cartridges of the 06 approx. size, in the 223 I pull one in half, these create a fluff of dacron from the top of the powder into the neck. Sometime back I tried using the "Halloween spider webs" for filler, it worked but I just didn't like pulling off the chunks until I got enough, also figured that I got more consistant weights by cutting the sheets. I have never seen any of it exit the muzzle, never found any on the ground, or seen evidence of it being left in the barrel- therefore I assume the amount I use is being consumed during combustion of the propellent. I have found that in some cases it dramatically improves internal ballistics with reduced loads(7383+846), and a few where it actually hurt. Picture is of 30/06 casing and a 5/8 wad cut from sheet, wad standing on end expands to about 1 inch high on its own after cutting, just handling it to get it ready to put in the case makes it fluff even more. The one standing weights 1.3 gr the one laying down weights 1.5 grs, maybe this stuff comes in different densities? I'm not going to start weighing every wad!

[swheeler]

30/06 and dacron

[35remington]

The amount of dacron I've used in my cast loads has become less and less over the years, mostly because I started seeing the effects of using too much, and due to the realization that a little really does go a long way.

Proper amounts, for me, in most cartridges are a few tenths of a grain or maybe slightly more in the really big cases; when loading something like my .25-20 with a very small charge of W321 (3.1 grains from the AutoDisk) I use about a tenth grain. That doesn't look like much, but it fills the case adequately. Powder doesn't shift around, even when the case is slammed against the loading bench, neck down.

The problem with using dacron in large amounts is that, at least with the fast powders, it tends to upset the bullet somewhat, and seems to promote obturation in general. That may not be a bad thing in some instances, but with the fast powders it doesn't seem to do the bullet any good. I can show pictures of bullets that were fired over just the powder charge vs. lead bullets that were fired over cases containing an excessive amount of dacron. The bullet will show more upset, and that doesn't seem desirable, accuracywise.
And no, this wasn't due to greater pressure with the dacron, as the charges with and without dacron showed virtually the same velocity.

The "wad" of dacron may also be causing some problems as the bullet leaves the muzzle if it is overlarge. Make sure you get the lubricant off the bullet base so it doesn't stick after the bullet leaves the barrel.

I guess my advice would be to experiment ever lower with the amounts of dacron that you use; you may be surprised at how little is needed to truly immobilize the powder charge. The small amount of dacron still prevents gascutting and helps protect the bullet.

I have found bits of dacron in front of the shooting bench, but that was when I was using too much. If you can find wads of it on the ground, I believe you are using more than you need in most situations. FWIW, the fast burning powders might make a slight fused area in the dacron, but most of it is still fluff, just a dirty gray. My .35 Remington, when I used too much, would have a little flat disk of fused dacron on part of the recovered wad that perfectly conformed to the base of the bullet. I use much less now and feel that I have better results because of it.

[Pilgrim]

I just pull a tuft of the stuff off of a loose wad, like the dacrn that comes ready to stuff pillows. I'd guess all expanded after I pull it free, it's a bit smaller than the size of a walnut (.308 based case, powdewr roughly 1/2 of case volume). I don't weigh it, but do try to make each of the tufts about the same. I push it down on the powder, all of it, and it expands to fill the case up to the neck. I only use it if it helps accuracy, and that is pretty easy to determine...just look at your targets. Obviously larger cases take a bigger tuft than does smaller cases. I do not recall ever trying dacron in cases larger than the .35 Rem or .358 Win. In straight walled cases (.375 Win & .45-70) I don't recall any appreciable improvement in accuracy with dacron vs. without, but I need to do more testing with low velocity loads in both cartridges. Up to now I've focused on "high velocity" loads for both the .375 Win. and the .45-70 (~2000 fps for both). If powder fill is ~80% or more, I look for a slower powder rather than use fillers. If powder is 12 or less, then fillers are worth trying. IMO. Pilgrim

[Buckshot]

"..............I just pull a tuft of the stuff off of a loose wad, like the dacrn that comes ready to stuff pillows. I'd guess all expanded after I pull it free, it's a bit smaller than the size of a walnut (.308 based case, powdewr roughly 1/2 of case volume). I don't weigh it, but do try to make each of the tufts about the same. I push it down on the powder, all of it, and it expands to fill the case up to the neck."

...........Ditto what Pilgrim said. Beats typing it all out again :D

............Buckshot

[David R]

Well, you guys helped again. I am using the wrong stuff.

I will get some pillow stuff instead of the 1/8" sheet.

Thanksabunch
David

[StarMetal]

David

No, no,no, that 1/8 sheet stuff is still Dacron, it will work. I'm using 1/2 in thick sheet stuff. Personally I wouldn't like the loose pillow stuff. I just cut an appropiate rectangle piece and stuff it in, in the correct manner that is.

Joe