Is it possible?

[greywuuf]

Other than either the vent hole or the nipple showing too much blowback/by.....is it possible to closely duplicate the performance of some of the early black powder cartridge gun performance with a muzzle loader?....with an appropriate barrel and twist I can not see a lot of difference between a muzzy and say a 45-70 (or other straight walled case) . As long as your barrel was appropriate for say a 4-500 grain paper patched bullet (very similar to what idahoron was doing)...I mean I realize it is not easy .. but come on ....muzzle loaders are regarded as 100 yard guns ....and the sharps competes in 600-1000 yard matches ... What is the technical difference?


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[country gent]

It should be possible and fairly straight forward, with a barrel with the correct twist. A 1-18 or 1-16 twist 45 caliber barrel 30" long a 500 grn bullet possibly even Paper patched over a charge of powder to give 1150-1200 fps. This would duplicate the 45-70 BP loads.
On a side note back in the day there were matches for muzzle loaders out to 1000 yds. Creedmore was started with muzzle loaders. Some were almost team matches though with a shooter and a loader, saving the shooter getting up to load after each shot.

[DIRT Farmer]

It is very doable . My first long range muzzle loader was a T/C with a i-18 Green montain barrel. 85 grains of Goex ffg one 1/8 felt wad, one hard card and a paper patched 535 slick. It did fairly well at 500, was limited by the shooter. I now have a Pedersoli Gibbs simular loads run out to 1200 yards by good shooters.
The Lyman bullet for the 43 Spanish will shoot well within hunting requirments loaded as above and patched with heavier paper in the fast twist 45 barrels. Just be aware nipples will not last long without the platinum lined nipples

[waksupi]

https://www.americanrifleman.org/articles/2012/10/31/the-rigby-match-rifle-creedmoor-more/

Yes indeed, the old Creedmore matches between the US and England are legend. 1000 yards was what sorted out the men. I seem to recall in the finals of a match, one of the Brits accidently shot the wrong target, sending the win to the US. Lots of stories of the old days floating around. Harry Pope and the boys used to do some pretty good shooting, too. I believe there is a group in the midwest that hold some major matches with the old Rigby's and similar rifles.

[carbine]

They did a lot of long range 300+ yard BP shooting in the NMLRA. Friend was highly involved

[Bent Ramrod]

Pedersoli makes reproductions of the Gibbs and Volunteer muzzleloading rifles. They are the equivalent in range and accuracy of .45 black powder cartridge rifles.

[bedbugbilly]

If you can find a copy of "The Muzzleloading Cap Lock Rifle" by Ned Roberts, get it and read it. I had a copy and read it probably fifty years ago - loaned it out an never got it back. I recently bought a copy off of "fleabay" to read again. It will really open your eyes up to what was done when the cap lock rifle was in its heyday as far as target shooting, etc.and what was able to be accomplished. It will give you a good understanding of all the aspects of the cap lock rifle. what dpi;d be achieved and is well worth reading.

In years past, a trip to Friendship for the Nationals was never complete until I went down and watched the bench rest shooters. These guys/gals were all a "club" of their own (I mean that in a good way) and it was amazing to watch some to the shots and distances that they could shoot and what they could accomplish.

Your question has already been answered above but, "yes", I personally think it is very "doable" - regardless of whether it is flint or percussion. And, I believe there are some on here who have proven it very well.

I have shot mostly "traditional" for 55 years - i.e. rifled muskets, round ball, etc. About ten or fifteen years ago, I bought a partially finished "project" - lock stock and barrel that a guy was making a lighter bench rest gun out of. The barrel is 1 1/8 Octagon and weighs between 8 land 9 pounds. I was going to make a lighter bench rest out of it just for play but never got around to it so I decided to sell the barrel - sold it on "flabby" to a guy down in Tennessee. It was a beautifl .45 caliber barrel with a 1:22 twist. I regretted it afterwards. A month ago, I saw it listed on fleabay by the guy I had sold it to at a buy it now price. I couldn't resist and I bought it back. Both he and I laughed about it. It is my "summer project" to build a heavier rifle for bench rest for fun - I won't be shooting competition with it but sure want to see what I can do with it with a paper patch conical. I never thought I would be "in to" that type of shooting but my inspiration for wanting to build the rifle and giving it a try to see what I can accomplish with a decent barrel and a patched conical out of it has been the results of some on here who have had very good results with even the most basic of front stuffer. Given the right barrel/bore/twist/boolit and load combination, I think a good muzzle loader could easily give a similar bore BP cartridge rifle a run for the money.

[oldracer]

I started shooting black powder cartridge 45-70 Sharps and an original Rolling Block and since our range only goes to 300 yards that was as far as I shot. They all 3 shot about 1 to 2 MOA and could have shot better if I was better. I switched over to muzzle loaders and sold those 3 to a fellow in TN. It took me several years to get a used Pedersoli Gibbs and it shoots as well at 300 yards. I have made 3 additional fast twist rifles, one a 1 in 18 under hammer, one is a 1 in 18 copy of the Gibbs and the latest is my gain twist 1 in 18 to 1 in 15 monster that weighs about 20# or so. All three of those shoot the same as the 45-70 rifles did. They are bore rider 540 grain grease groove bullets and the powder load is higher that the 45-70's which used 68 grains and the muzzle loaders use 80 grains if no wind and 90 if windy. So I guess you could say they can shoot the same after doing the work.

[charlie b]

Read up the posts by idahoron and his stickies on paper patching.

A few others as well have had good luck. The key is the barrel, specifically the rate of twist.

Yes, with the right barrel you can get MOA performance at several hundred meters from a muzzle loader, even the 'old style' side locks or under hammers.

[wills]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whitworth_rifle

http://targetx.boardhost.com/

[oldracer]

With side lock percussion rifles the speed of the hammer hitting the percussion cap once the set trigger is touched is paramount. A fellow named Ron Long who lives or lived in Denver made some of the fastest ones ever. There is a new one called the Schuetzen side lock is about as fast. The twist rate of the barrel is really important as noted above and it depends on how long and heavy the bullet is. My Pedersoli has 1 in 18 which many feel is okay. The latest one I put together has gain twist ending at 1 in 15 but I don't know who made it. One thing I noted is the barrel on my Pedersoli gets really hot and doesn't cool off much during a cease fire?

[Chill Wills]

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?346637-Pedersoli-Gibbs-Rifle

This is one of our current threads..

A note or two.
Creedmoor is spelled without "more" on the end of it. There is no "more" in Creedmoor. It is a place. The first place / range where the American team (NOT) shooting muzzle loaders as suggested above, but rather breachloaders held our first hosted international match in 1874. The American team, as a condition of the challenge from the Irish Team ( not English) had to use American made rifles. In 1871 the Irish proposed they shoot 800, 900,and 1000yd match against the Americans, but we (USA) could not have or use any of their longrange muzzleloader rifles to compete with. We (USA) excepted the challenge and had until September 1874 to build a range, build rifles, create a team.

Remington and Sharps agreed to provide rifles, Match rifles for the long range competition. Nothing like them existed here before from our manufactures.
Long story, short. We did it all and, in the end won the first LR match held on American soil. But just by a squeak!


You can read the story of Creedmoor. It is a good one. It is also the reason we have an American NRA!

[Chill Wills]

David, If you don't mind, I am posting a link to your great internet sight for backround on all things Creedmoor.
All, ...this is hands down, the best source of info for Black Powder Muzzleloader and Breechloader era longrange target shooting.

http://www.researchpress.co.uk/index.php/marksmanship/creedmoor

[Good Cheer]

After jacking around with GM barrels and makes and models of muzzleloaders I wanted rifles that were
a) correctly sized to use commonly available off the shelf molds
and
b) had twists and rifling geometry to suit my intended medium weight (for the bore diameter) boolits.

The carbon footprints on my path have led to .400, .458 and .520 bore diameters. But gee golly I'd really like to have a GPR specifically for paper patched .41 magnum molds. And those .476 revolver molds look sooo good!
Uh, maybe I should simmer down and go play with .58 minie ball molds for a while.

[ResearchPress]

David, If you don't mind, I am posting a link to your great internet sight for backround on all things Creedmoor.
I'm please you did post and thanks for the kind words.

From the first NRA Annual Rifle Meeting (http://www.researchpress.co.uk/index.php/marksmanship/nra) in Great Britain, on Wimbledon Common in 1860, there were muzzle loading matches out to 1000 yards.

Three of the gunmakers closely associated with long range muzzle loading are:
Joseph Whitworth (http://www.researchpress.co.uk/index.php/firearms/gunmakers/whitworth)
George Gibbs (http://www.researchpress.co.uk/index.php/firearms/gunmakers/gibbs)
John Rigby (http://www.researchpress.co.uk/index.php/firearms/gunmakers/rigby)

I have a few short articles on long range muzzle loading that are linked from this article: Historical Background & Shooting Today (http://www.researchpress.co.uk/index.php/marksmanship/lrml/long-range-muzzle-loading)

If you're on facebook, have a look at my page (http://www.facebook.com/ResearchPress/) and associated long range group (http://www.facebook.com/groups/researchpress/).


Hope all the links are OK - but there's lots of reading on the subject for you all! :)

David

[ResearchPress]

In 1871 the Irish proposed they shoot 800, 900,and 1000yd match against the Americans, but we (USA) could not have or use any of their longrange muzzleloader rifles to compete with. We (USA) excepted the challenge and had until September 1874 to build a range, build rifles, create a team.
A small correction if you don't mind.... The Irish Challenge didn't come until 1873, by which time the NRA had been founded and Creedmoor was already built.

The NRA was founded in late 1871, and in 1872 a site at Creed's Farm, Long Island, was found for a range. Creedmoor opened in spring 1873. Ireland beat England and Scotland in the Elcho Shield match at Wimbledon, Great Britain, in July 1873. This was the first win for Ireland, who in November issued a challenge to the riflemen of America to decide the championship of the world. The invitation first appeared in the columns of the New York Herald on 22 November, the Irish apparently not aware of the NRA in America. The Irish invitation was accepted by the Amateur Rifle Club, of New York City, on behalf of American riflemen.

David

[Ballistics in Scotland]

There are a lot of variables involved. Black powder is an exceptionally consistent and easily-ignited propellant. Jacketed-bullet cartridge rifles were around a long time before they equalled the accuracy of the Pope-style scheutzen rifles, with a cartridge case but with the bullet either breech-seated separately or loaded from the muzzle with a false muzzle.

A lot of British long-range regulations, aimed at being closer to military condititions, prohibited cleaning, which the bore between shots. In these circumstances the muzzle-loader had an advantage, in that a patched, flat-based bullet tended to scrape off some of the fouling on its way down.

The Glasgow Art Galleries and Museum at Kelvingrove have Martini-Henry rifle number 1, which was presented to Alexander Henry of Edinburgh, and also the rifle he submitted to the separate trial, independent of action types, for the barrel design. It iygos a heavy match rifle with a short forend and no ramrod hole - and a muzzle-loader! He profited by the above advantage, and won with his own rifling type, polygonal with a sharp ridge in each corner, which was nowhere near state of the art at the time. They are probably doing the same with things the layman doesn't know about.

[sharps4590]

I'll give a hearty second to bedbugbilly's recommendation of the Roberts book. Until I read it I had no idea what was done back then, pretty amazing. We did win the 1876 match at Creedmoor but only because one of the Irishmen, who shot Rigby muzzleloaders, put a round on the wrong target. Even had we lost it would have been a good showing by American shooters and rifle makers as the final score was very close.

I'd like to have a long range muzzleloader but heck, I don't shoot my Sharps much these days. I have no range long enough to stretch their legs.

[pietro]

Other than either the vent hole or the nipple showing too much blowback/by.....is it possible to closely duplicate the performance of some of the early black powder cartridge gun performance with a muzzle loader.

What is the technical difference?





The only practical difference would be the slight power loss back through the ignition channel of a muzzleloading rifle - easily overcome by a slight increase in the powder charge, like from the .45-70's 70gr charge to (say) 85gr in a like-bored frontstuffer.


.

[Squeeze]

The only practical difference would be the slight power loss back through the ignition channel of a muzzleloading rifle - easily overcome by a slight increase in the powder charge, like from the .45-70's 70gr charge to (say) 85gr in a like-bored frontstuffer.


.

Exactly. no case size powder limitations. I have several ML made from breechplugged 45/70 barrels. I dont see any drawbacks in performance from any .45/70 case shooter. I can sling big lead, and fullbore modern jacketed.