S&W 25-2 with .45 Auto Rim

[LAGS]

I recently aquired a S&W 25-2 in .45 ACP in a horse trade deal that it looks like someone has shortened the barrel to 2 3/4".
I like the looks of the pistol, but have yet to fire it.
My question is,
Looking at the loading data in all of my books, the .45 Auto Rim is loaded considerably lower than the .45 ACP.
I had a Webly and a Colt years ago and used the Auto Rim, and I remember that they were not rated for the Modern .45 ACP pressures.
Is the Auto Rim loading data a carry over from those models, or can the .45 auto Rim be loaded the same as the Current .45 ACP.
This pistol looks like it would be great for Steel competition, and may consider trying it at that some day.

[Kosh75287]

I think the cartridge can be loaded to the same ballistics as a .45 ACP, but in a finely tuned revolver like that, I'D be inclined to take it easy when loading it. I like 4.0/Red Dot/200gr. LSWC for light plinking. The same powder and charge weight under a 225gr. TC or 230 LRN also makes for a fine steel plate load. These loads can be duplicated with any number of propellant/projectile combinations. I list these two as examples of "taking it easy" when shooting the classic firearms.

[Char-Gar]

I recently aquired a S&W 25-2 in .45 ACP in a horse trade deal that it looks like someone has shortened the barrel to 2 3/4".
I like the looks of the pistol, but have yet to fire it.
My question is,
Looking at the loading data in all of my books, the .45 Auto Rim is loaded considerably lower than the .45 ACP.
I had a Webly and a Colt years ago and used the Auto Rim, and I remember that they were not rated for the Modern .45 ACP pressures.
Is the Auto Rim loading data a carry over from those models, or can the .45 auto Rim be loaded the same as the Current .45 ACP.
This pistol looks like it would be great for Steel competition, and may consider trying it at that some day.

The 25-2 is a strong revolver and can be loaded with 45 AR ammo to full 45 ACP spec with zero problems. Some even up that a mite. I have had several of these over the years and now own just one. It has the barrel shortened to 4". My most used load these days is the 242 grain 452423 over 4.5 - 5.0 grains of Bullseye. Bullets of .454 diameter or even .455 will work best to match the charge hole throats.

These revolvers were introduced in 1955 as the "1955 Target Model" with a 6.5" barrel. Later it was marketed as the Model 25-2 and somewhere along the way the barrel length was changed to 6".

[smkummer]

At one time, it was recommended to just load identical data in either 45 acp or 45 auto rim case. For some reason late data for 45 auto rim is lower pressure than 45 acp. The original 1917 guns are now approaching 100 years old. I guess it's possible that reloading manuals are mindful that some 45 auto rim is being fired in shaved webleys. Obtained my first 1917 Colt in the 80's and was never worried about the strength firing mostly cast bullet reloads with data from the usual manuals.

[Outpost75]

First thing I would do is pin out the cylinder throats and see how large they are, as some of the Model 25s run quite large, but they shoot well with bullets which "fit."

I like the Accurate 45-240H1 in my S&W .45 Hand Ejector 1917 and also in my Webley Mk.VI, loading either one with 3.5 grains of Bullseye for about 600 fps. Pleasant to shoot, but quick recoil recovery for fast DA and "authoritative" on the steel targets.

I size .455" for both!

206739

[vzerone]

You realize that in modern cartridge pressure testing they use a vent barrel for cartridges that are strictly revolver cartridges. They also feel that there are many "old" 45 revolvers around and caution the data on the safe side.

[LAGS]

You are correct about the cylinder Throats be Generous on the Smith.
A .452 slug drops right thru no problem.
I am going to have to check out the actual barrel Groove diameter and Throat size.
Looks like I am going to have to buy a larger Sizer and cast and load only for this revolver, and keep my .45 ACP load for my Custom Colt 1911 seperate.
The Colt chamber is tight if you use a .452 Bullet in the case, but works well with the bullets sized to .451.

[Outpost75]

You may want to consider Lee .455 Webley dies with an Auto Rim or ACP shell holder, to size,and expand brass properly for larger diameter bullets, and to permit roll crimping your revolver loads. I do this with the Accurate bullet above and it works well for me. Makes it easy to keep the autopistol and revolver loads separate too.

[daniel lawecki]

Yes use the same data I do in mine no problems at all.

[Drm50]

I got a couple 25-2s that I shoot nothing but WC cast target loads in 45AR brass. The problem with 25s is under spec throats in cylinder. Bullet gets "undersized" by the chamber , smaller dia
than bore. The only thing you can do in this situation is have throats opened up.

[square butte]

Both of my 25-2's had oversize throats - not undersize throats. Mine ran .456-.458. I'd like to find a 25-2 with undersize cylinder throats. That cylinder would be off and sent to Doug Guy faster than Jack Spratt.

[Char-Gar]

You are correct about the cylinder Throats be Generous on the Smith.
A .452 slug drops right thru no problem.
I am going to have to check out the actual barrel Groove diameter and Throat size.
Looks like I am going to have to buy a larger Sizer and cast and load only for this revolver, and keep my .45 ACP load for my Custom Colt 1911 seperate.
The Colt chamber is tight if you use a .452 Bullet in the case, but works well with the bullets sized to .451.

The various Smith and Wesson DA revolvers made before the late 80's had cylinder throats in the .456 - .4565 area. The barrel groove is pretty consistent at .452. For an expander for larger bullets in the 45 ACP case, I use one from a Lyman 310 die set in 45 Colt. These are .454 and do well with .454 to .456 bullets.

I have a Smith and Wesson 625 made in 1989 that has .453 throats and it is a jewel to shoot.

[LAGS]

My revolver is of 1984 vintage.
And it has the .456 cylinder throats with a .452 barrel.
I will load up some ammo with the 45 AR cases and see how it does.
But for Steel at close range, I think it will be plenty accurate with the .452 slugs for now.
Especially with such a short barrel

[Kosh75287]

The 25-2 is a strong revolver and can be loaded with 45 AR ammo to full 45 ACP spec with zero problems. No argument, but any tuning or fitting that has been done in than name of enhancing accuracy gets battered harder and diminishes faster, when heavier loads are used. It's kinda like buying a match-grade Gold-Cup, set up for loads that throw 185gr. SWCs at 750 f/s, and feeding it nothing but military ball. Eventually, that match-grade accuracy will diminish.

[35remington]

Nevertheless, the point made earlier that the 25 can take a lot of full power 45 ACP equivalent is quite correct. The 25 isn't "tuned or fitted" but rather amply stout for 45 ACP. There is no need to worry or advise that full power 45 ACP will take the gilt edge of accuracy away quickly, because it won't.

[Outpost75]

Nevertheless, the point made earlier that the 25 can take a lot of full power 45 ACP equivalent is quite correct. The 25 isn't "tuned or fitted" but rather amply stout for 45 ACP. There is no need to worry or advise that full power 45 ACP will take the gilt edge of accuracy away quickly, because it won't.

Just don't try that in a "shaved" Webley, because eventually the gun WILL fail, read the "sticky."

Been there, done that, got the T-shirt.

[35remington]

I did not mention the Webley at all. Only the Smith 25.

[texasnative46]

LAGS,

Fwiw, the original/factory load from PETERS was exactly the same ballistics as the Model 1911, 230 FMJ load for the Colt's GM.
(I'd "back off some" IF loading for a Webley Mk VI.)

yours, tex

[denul]

In Handloader number 254, August / September 2008, Brian Pearce makes a convincing argument that current revolvers in good condition will tolerate 45 ACP + pressures, even though SAAMI specifies a much lower pressure, apparently not out of deference to 1917 revolvers but rather to a possibility of leading with the very soft lead bullet Factory loads offered by Remington until being discontinued in 1997. He does advise caution regarding seating depth and increasing pressures when giving loads for the 280gr cast 270-SAA. My 625s are overdue for a trip to Dougguy but I have used loads from the above article without issue in these as well as a 1917.
Another source of loads that should almost certainly be abandoned is in the old Speer number 8 Manual that included some 4756 and 2400 loads that were well into to what would now be considered Magnum territory. I still like 4756, and really regret its discontinuation, but my use of my fortunately ample (hoarded?) supply these days is in much milder loads. Speer abandoned all of those in the subsequent number 9 manual, but even when I foolishly used some of those in my youth they apparently did not harm a model 55 Target after about 1,500 rounds. Not at all a recommendation, just an observation, and limited to and by my own experience only .

[LAGS]

I ordered a Lee 255 grain .452 mold and a .454 sizer.
All my other Lee molds cast a little wider.
But if it doesn't cast to .454 , I will just lap out the mold a little.
Now , does anyone have any suggestions on powders or loads for the heavier bullet in cast ?
The only powder I am out of is Red Dot, but I mostly use Unique in my handgun loads

[Char-Gar]

I ordered a Lee 255 grain .452 mold and a .454 sizer.
All my other Lee molds cast a little wider.
But if it doesn't cast to .454 , I will just lap out the mold a little.
Now , does anyone have any suggestions on powders or loads for the heavier bullet in cast ?
The only powder I am out of is Red Dot, but I mostly use Unique in my handgun loads

In your 25-2, 4.5/Bulleye or 6.5/Unique both max.

[LAGS]

Thank you.
I have both powders

[dbosman]

Section some "modern" .45 Auto Rim cases, .45 ACP cases, and a modern .44 mag case. I have some old .45 AR cases that are not so thick.
Compare the thickness of the metal in the web, and at the base of the case above the web. The article in "Handloader" was spot on for .45 AR and Smith revolvers. Also, the cylinder is long or deep enough for longer and heavier bullets. Even when seated long.

[LAGS]

I was able to get to the range yesterday andd fire the 25-2 for the first time.
I was shooting a box of Blazer 230 gr .45 ACP.
I could not even hit the target at 50 yards.
The front sight is so low, that the pistol was hitting 2 1/2 feet high at 50 yards.But it was closer at 100 yards.
The rear sight blade was also staked to the windage screw wrong, and the sight moved side to side after each firing.
Well, I am going to fix all that.
I have a new windage screw, and I will mill the front sight off since it was made for this gun as one piece with the ramp.
Then I will mill the slot into it for a standard S&W front sight blade that is .060" taller for starters.
Now I know why my friend wanted to Horse Trade it away, but he had got it in some trade deal also.
I still think I got a good deal and otherwise like the pistol.

[Drm50]

I have a couple 25-2s and a Colt NS 45acp. I have no doubt they will handle 45 GI ball type ammo
safely. I use the for Wadcutter Target loads and would not put hard ball through any of mine. It
is just fact that Jacketed bullets put more wear on forcing cone and bore than cast. My 25-2s are
old enough to have pinned front blades.

[LAGS]

My pistol was built in 1984, and I do not know if the original barrel had a pinned front sight blade, but bet it did.
But when it was shortened it looks like someone made an intragal Ramp and front sight and attached it into a shallow slot milled on to the top of the barrel.
But if I grind off the front blade sight, I can mill in the recess for the Factory blade and pin it like the other N frames that I have.
But before I go to grinding, I will fix the rear sight windage adjuster.
Then I will make the front sight taller with a form like I use to do Red Inserts in pistol sights.
Build it up with JB Weld with Black Dye added.
That way I can test fire it, then File it down to the height I need, then order or make the new front blade to the height I need for the rear sight set at the elevation I desire to get full adjustment to my needs.
That way I will have a sight set up to be at Mid point adjustment, and be Zeroed on a target set at 50 yards.
I should be able to lower the rear sight to be zero at 25 yards, and maybe be able to raise it up fully for a close to 100 yard zero.
But that is all predicated on the trajectory of the .45 ACP or Auto Rim loadings.
Yes, I like shooting handguns at longer distances then the standard 7 ,11 or 25 yard range for handguns.
And I dont shoot off a rest. ( It just takes practice )

[RJM52]

Sounds like it is an interesting piece...

As to the front sight being pinned....probably not. About half way through 1980 Smith started milling the entire front sight as one piece. I had an early 1980 and a late 1980 vintage 57s and the early one had the blade pinned to the base and the later one was one piece. Shortly thereafter they went to the non-pinned to the frame barrels. Apparently done as a cost cutting move, no one at Smith probably ever thought of the fact that a damaged front sight blade milled as one piece of the barrel would require a whole new barrel to be put on... Not sure when but Smith did go back to the pinned on front sight sometime after...

As to .45 ACP revolvers, have been shooting them since the 1970s. Loads with SR-4756 had to be seen to be believed...they easily matched .45 Super loads.

Most accurate bullet used was the 225 grain Speer JHP...

Bob

[LAGS]

Thank you RJM52.
I am going to use this pistol with Cast PC'ed boolits for the time being in the .45 Auto Rim cases.
That way I can seat them out further, and eliminate some of that Jump to the barrel from the case mouth.
I just cast up some Lee 255 FN , sized them to .454 and ECPC'ed them with Smokes Signal Blue.
Going to load them up today and probably shoot them next weekend.
I am going to start off with Unique, and found out that SR-4756 is one pouder I do not have any longer.
Got plenty of SR 4759 for my rifles.
The Rib in the barrel shoundnt be that hard to mill the slot in for a factory pinned sight, if it does come to that.
But If I ever replace the barrel, I will install a longer 4" barrel because this is the Round Butt Model and It would look better with the short barrel rather than the 6" that originally came on the pistol.
But that too would be another Custom Barrel job.

[KCSO]

Going back in my data to 1974 I find that I was using a full 45 acp load in all my auto rim cases. This is straight from the lips of Elmer lord of the hand gun. Mine was a 6" and I shot it a lot.

[sixshot]

I also like the #452423 bullet, unsized & powder coated using either WST or 231 powder. Jackrabbits don't care for it.

Dick

[smkummer]

If that was my smith 25-2, it would get a new barrel. A snub 45 is intimidating without a shot being fired but it's a bit big carrying hidden. A buddy of mine has a 1989 model with a 5" barrel and that gun is a tac driver and wonderfully balanced.

[LAGS]

I would love to rebarrel this one if I can get a barrel at a good price.
My preferance in barrel lengths is 5"
But they never made one in .45 ACP or .45 LC
I have two S&W Victory models in 5" one in 38/200 and the other with a spare .38 Special cylinder , ( not the Bored thru version) and a S&W 27 with one of the last 5" barrels made after they discontinued them.
The Victory with the .38 Cylinder shoots pretty good if you use "as cast" and powdercoated .359 boolits.
Hay, I am old.
I still prefer a revolver even though I own a bunch of Semi Autos

[azrednek]

Going back in my data to 1974 I find that I was using a full 45 acp load in all my auto rim cases. This is straight from the lips of Elmer lord of the hand gun. Mine was a 6" and I shot it a lot.

I recall some 70's data saying 45AR loads used in the 1955 Target model could exceed ACP data slightly but warned not to use the same loads or data in 1917 models. I'm going on memory and could be wrong, 5.5 Bullseye with 230gr hardball.

[LAGS]

I took the 25-2 out today.
Last weel I changed the rear sight blade from the factory .146 to a .196.
Well, that was too tall.
I was hitting 12" high at 15 yards, and 3 feet high at 75 yards, with the rear sight screwed all the way down.
I had ordered a .160 White Outline blade at the same time.
I will change out the blade and see how it prints.
My intention is to have the pistol sighted in at 15 Yards with the rear sight all the way down.
That way I have full UP adjustment to hopefully get out to 100 yards with no hold over.
The pistol grouped good at 15 Yards with a 230 gr Lee Tumble lubed cast RN with 5.5 gr of Unique.
The load was light, and will be increased when I start shooting this gun at longer distances.
I also shot some of the Auto Rim cases loaded with Lee 255 gr and Unique.
They were sized to .454 for the cylinder, and one chamber you have to force them in when loading.
That one might need some reaming to match the other chambers to make loading consistant.

But with the three rear blades, it gives me the option to find the one that is just a Smidge too Tall, and then file it to meet my sighting requirements.

[MostlyLeverGuns]

The 25-2 is a 45 ACP revolver designed to use the 'moon' clips, half, full, third so any REASONABLE (not +P?) 45 ACP cartridge can be used in the modern revolvers. The 1917 Colts and S&W's should be fine, the Enfields and Webleys were not built for the 45 ACP and should be loaded very conservatively. I too had a 25-2 with cylinder throats of .456, hard to find bullets and/or molds that would work so said good-bye, that was in the 80's.

[LAGS]

I will Lap out a Lee Mold to the desired Diameter I need and Lap a Lee .454 push thru sizer to size them.
But as cast and powdercoated they measured .455 and shot pretty good.
Just that one chamber has a tight spot in the throat that makes it a little hard to drop the round in without adding just a little thumb pressure.
I will change out the sight blade , ream the chamber a little and redo the Red ramp insert on the front sight .
Then I will give an update.
But this is more of a Combat Revolver than a target revolver like it was originally called.
So I am not expecting 1" groups at 25 yards no mater what I do to it.
Remember, the barrel was shortened to 2 3/4 by someone else.

[CLAYPOOL]

I bought one that had a "Finger Print" near the end of the barrel. Light. Surplus, used threw Zanders. Bought all the reloading stuff for the barrel MARKED , .45 COLT. Imogen my surprise when I loaded 5 rounds and dropped the first shell into the cylinder and it didn't go in all the way. I looked at that shell for a couple of minutes. Tried again. Now I have been reloaded since lead shot days for me. I looked again. i sat and wondered what I had did wrong. Couldn't see a thing. All of a sudden a light came on. I went and got a .45 ACP. perfect. HMmmnnn. I remembered a "STORY" somewhere in all that reading years ago about some being ordered for Police Dept. in .45 ACP. i then wondered where that extra Cylinder was , IF AT ALL.. It is now with my Daughters father - in - law, to only be given to his son and mine when hes gone or done with it. All of my stuff is going to those 2 and their gals. Hopefully their kids will appreciate what they have coming down the road. he has one arm, but all ways wanted one. It now has MOON clips and .45 Auto rim shells.

[CLAYPOOL]

Boys i could see the ridge in the cylinder and i kept thinking. "Boy that sure ain't very far down in there".

[LAGS]

When I first got my hands on this pistol, I thought about taking it out to .45 LC or looking for a spare cylinder for it in .45 LC.
But as short as this barrel is, all it would do is make more Noise and Flame then the .45 ACP or AR.
I have a worn copy of the Original First issue of Handgun Magazine stashed around here somewher from way back in like 1976.
It has in the very back an article about converting .45 ACP or .455's to .45 LC.
It shows which models can be done, and what you have to do to make it work.
I should have kept that copy of the magazine in mint condition.
That might have been worth some money.

[kens]

I did not mention the Webley at all. Only the Smith 25.

I believe the soft loadings in the manual reflect the so-called 'shaved Webleys'.
since you are asking about the model 25, the 25 will handle all the 45acp/autorim loadings in your manual
I have a 1917 S&W and I shoot 45acp straight up, it will headspace on the mouth and shoot, as well as autorim.
I have tried some 'hot' autorim, and there just isnt much to gain - it is what it is.
What you can do with the autorim, is shoot bullets other than naturally feeds in an autoloader. you can choose revolver profile nose and weights.

[35remington]

You can shoot revolver nose profile and weight bullets from ACP cases in Auto Rim revolvers as well. No need for Auto Rim cases for that purpose. Now, if you feel the need to roll crimp in a crimp groove then yes, Auto Rim cases are more appropriate for that.

[Drm50]

I don't think a 25-2 barrel would be hard to find. Brownells had after market target barrels in
stock. I have a good many K & N frame S&Ws. I don't believe in firing heavy loads in any of
them. There is no question they will handle these loads but why beat up a precision revolver
for no reason. I have Ruger S/As that I shoot heavy loads to hunt with. I do hunt with a 25-5
loaded about factory level for 250 cast and find it is more that enough for deer out to 100yds.
I've never shot one that far , 50yds is about my self imposed limit on deer with handgun.

[azrednek]

. I too had a 25-2 with cylinder throats of .456, hard to find bullets and/or molds that would work so said good-bye, that was in the 80's.

I used to have a 1917 Brazilian surplus like that. Despite having a large pit in the bore. Using castings from the Lee mold intended for the Ruger Old Army was like a night vs day improvement. Without looking I believe the mold is supposed to drop .456.

[Uncle Grinch]

I’ve got a 1917 S&W military revolver that was made in 1937. It’s still a decent shooter with ACP ammo, but shoots better with Auto Rim and RCBS-45-250 Keith style cast. I need to work up more loads, but I only have about 15 pieces of brass.

[LAGS]

I picked up 200 Starline cases in .45 AR.
I heard Years ago when I had a Colt 1917 that they were going to stop making the .45 AR ammo, And I had sold all my brass with that pistiol since I didnt have a pistol for it anymore at the time

[LAGS]

I took the 25-2 out yesterday after i replaced the rear sight blade with a .160 height blade.
The pistol shot 9" high at 25 yards with the sight adjusted all the way down.
My goal is to have the rear sight blade set up to ne in the Full Down adjustment or ( maybe only two clicks up) and be Zeroed at 25 yards.
The original blade was .146, and shot way too low, at the lowest setting.
So it looks like I may have to rework the .160 blade and reduce the height to somewhere around .155 in height to get what I am Aiming for.