Need load help with moderate charge of lil gun for vaquero....

[Tripplebeards]

Well, from what I’ve read my new model vaquero can be ran up to 23,000psi. My boolit I’m using is a pc lee 255g. The powders I currently have on hand are w296, h110(which are the same), and lil gun. I know the first two are out being they like to be filled to the brim in order to give consistency and would cause too much pressure but how about lil gun? It looked like 19g was around 24,700psi...would 17-18g be in the ballpark? And would it function properly and fps is my goal. It seems like there is no middle load data I am running into. It’s either up to 14,000psi or the opposite....above the 24,000 mark.

Has anybody seen or have any lil gun load data using a 255g cast boolit in the 15,000 to 23,000 psi that they can point me to or share...or maybe lil gun is. Or recommended at lower pressures like h110?

Thanks

[Tripplebeards]

Nobody?

[44MAG#1]

Removed by 44MAG#1

[DougGuy]

John Linebaugh recommends 24 grains of H110 in a Ruger NEW VAQUERO. I have used that load in mine with excellent results. I repeat A NEW VAQUERO. Yes he knows it is the smaller framed Vaquero.


This is an UNSAFE load in that gun and should NOT be posted on the open forum as anyone can google information posted here and it freely circulates the web once posted. Here is what that load gets you, it's very obvious that it is an over pressure load for a gun rated at 23,000psi.

http://i1202.photobucket.com/albums/bb374/DougGuy/Reloading/Hodgdon45Colt260_zpsjxmkfkea.jpg (http://s1202.photobucket.com/user/DougGuy/media/Reloading/Hodgdon45Colt260_zpsjxmkfkea.jpg.html)

[Tripplebeards]

Yep, that load is a recipe for disaster in the new vaquero. I have the above load listings in my manual as well. Thats why I asked the orginal question about a 17g chargw of lil gun. Figured it would be at or under 23, 000psi

[DougGuy]

John Linebaugh is a recognized authority, he also states the S&W 44 cylinder is as strong as a Ruger cylinder, and says the "Ruger Only" loads are fine in a S&W Model 25. Any 3rd grader can measure cylinder thickness and determine the S&W cylinder is THINNER than the Ruger cylinder so what's that telling you? Common sense says to me "Don't go there if you want this S&W to last."

As someone who does machine work on Ruger cylinders, I can tell you that the steel they use in these cylinders is some TOUGH STUFF! They have bars specially made for them by the steel mills, and they haul these 2 1/2" diameter steel rods in by the rail car to make cylinders from. The quality of the metal they use is good, however it is VERY inconsistent! Some of it will machine smoothly, the majority of it will not. It is granular, it will pull and tear out regardless of who makes the reamer, how sharp it is, or how new it is. I can tell you this from years of reaming them. I probably have done a thousand Ruger cylinders by now.

Ruger proof fires their cylinders to proof the design specification of the cylinder, they don't proof each cylinder. When they test fire a gun, they do it with factory supplied ammo that adheres to SAAMI specs for the caliber. They know by design that these cylinders are safe, they know handloaders routinely load them beyond SAAMI specs and sometimes beyond data published in load manuals. They are not worried about lawsuits from kaboom events because the cylinders are THAT tough, this is how they engineer them, and you could likely subject hundreds of medium framed 45 Colt cylinders to 30,000psi loads and never have a catastrophic event. BUT.... As inconsistent as the steel is that they make these from, what are the chances you will get one that for whatever reason might be a little TOO strong, as in brittle, or may have a harder pocket in the steel that just happens to get machined at the thinnest possible place in the cylinder?

OP, the reason you are seeing a void in reloading data for the medium framed gun is this. SAAMI never did and never will adopt a 45 Colt +P data sheet because too many old guns are chambered in this caliber and cannot handle the 45 ACP +P pressure of 23,000psi.

So. We as handloaders have to seek out articles like those written by Brian Pearce which I think I posted to you in another thread, *IF* we want to trust his data, which brings us back to the question of do we trust John Linebaugh or any of the gun writers for that matter? John has a great shop and can build anything he wants to build, custom, stock, the only limitation besides his imagination and experience, are the steels themselves. I for one don't have that luxury and not many on this board would either. We value things like eyes, ears, fingertips, all the stuff that might get damaged in a Kaboom, so we adhere to posted and published data from powder manufacturers, or we find loads that have been accepted and proven safe over the years that we can trust not to create an over pressure event.

I did work up loads for my medium framed Vaquero in 45 Schofield brass, which is shorter than 45 Colt brass, using H110 under a 250gr LBT WFN boolit ans WLP primers I was able to satisfy the case density that the powder requires and also stay under the 23,000psi pressure ceiling that the gun is rated for. I came up with an accurate, safe load that is fun to shoot and runs that boolit to 1200fps out of a 5 1/2" barrel. I worked up several other good loads using QuickLoad that yielded workable 45 Schofield +P loads in Starline 45 Schofield brass. Again, this is a smaller case than 45 Colt, and so the goal was to match a cartridge to the gun and the middle length rimmed 45 Schofield is perfect for these medium framed Rugers.

Back to your situation, I found that LilGun and 2400 could be downloaded into the 75% ~ 90% power band of the 45 Colt and be safe and accurate at the same time. HS6 is also a great powder to work with and I think you'd be good with up to 10.7gr under the 255gr boolit.

I don't currently have QL on this computer if I can get it on here I can look for some data for LilGun and 2400.

[Tripplebeards]

Thanks, emailed hogden on lil gun load recommendations a few minutes ago asking for 19, 000 to 23, 000 psi loads. The article you posted for me were for 280g cast. Guess I should have bought that mold instead. Imsure they won't get back to me till the middle of next week so if anyone has a chance to run quick load data I would be appreciative. Thanks

[DougGuy]

I'm gonna put this here just for the record, these are John Linebaugh's 45 Colt loads. You can look them up by powder mfgr's data and see how much pressure they develop but they are UP there! None of these should be used in the medium frame Ruger revolver.

http://i1202.photobucket.com/albums/bb374/DougGuy/Reloading/Linebaugh45ColtFor%20SampW25-5_zpsmro32esb.jpg (http://s1202.photobucket.com/user/DougGuy/media/Reloading/Linebaugh45ColtFor%20SampW25-5_zpsmro32esb.jpg.html)

[44MAG#1]

Removed by 44MAG#1

[NSB]

Promoting over pressure loads on the internet is a recipe for disaster. You get two eyes and ten fingers if you're lucky when you're born. Some people like to gamble with them, I don't. If the books say to not use them, don't. You gain almost nothing by hot rodding any firearm. Internet advice is worth exactly what you paid for it........

[Tripplebeards]

I don't plan on blowing up myself. If I wanted to shoot ruger only loads I'd go buy an old vaquero today. Just trying to get the proper pressured load data for the application. I sure hogden will provide me with the data I'm looking for. If not they will tell me what powders will work. Must not be to many lil gun/45 colt users out there

[DougGuy]

You need to talk to John. He's has had pressure tests done and I believe him. Just like people are afaid of the Keith load.

Ruger paid an agency I can't recall the name now, to blow up some BH and SBH cylinders. They took 60kpsi to destroy them. I have no doubt the medium framed cylinders will stand the 30,000psi Ruger Only loads 'til the cows come home. I have no question they will stand the Linebaugh loads for the life of the gun. Full size Ruger cylinders will stand the 45,000psi Win Mag loads all day in fact Ruger USED to convert cylinders for the Win Mag cartridge if the customer sent their cylinder in. The medium frame cylinder walls are thinner, so where do we determine the KB level is, 45,000psi? 50,000psi? 36,000psi?

I am not knocking John Linebaugh's loads, I am stating that if we observe 23,000psi as a safe pressure ceiling for the medium frame Ruger 45 caliber SA revolver, NONE of his loads are below this safe pressure ceiling and therefore should not be used in the medium framed 45 caliber Ruger revolver.

I shelled out the $152.00 price of admission for a copy of QuickLoad so I could develop 23,000psi max loads in the medium frame Ruger Vaquero that I own, but I did it in 45 Schofield brass which I reamed a 45 ACP cylinder to 45 Schofield. There is no +P data for the Schofield because there are no guns chambered in this caliber that are safe at 23,000psi. It's an old cartridge, SAAMI isn't going to take any interest in loading for it in modern guns so it's up to the individual to develop loads that suit their interests and are safe.

The medium frame Ruger is in the same boat as the Schofield. I thought having a smaller case would make more sense for what *I* wanted to accomplish with mine and it worked great. For MY interests. It is a fun gun to shoot, and I got a 250gr LBT WFN to 1200fps which makes it lethal on deer. Probably good for black bear and pigs too. I didn't hunt this year, might hunt next year, and the 45 Schofield will be tasked with filling the freezer with Bambi which I have no question it will gladly do if I do my part.

Ruger gave us a DANGED fine mid level, "tier2" revolver, fine enough that it needs dedicated tier2 loads tailored to it's size and strength, and I set out to take a mid level cartridge and tailor it to the job at hand. Ruger should chamber the Flattop and NMVaquero in 45 Schofield. Lipsey's limited edition convertible 45 with 3 cylinders. Santa would indeed be busy hauling these to dealers.

[Moonie]

John Linebaugh recommends 24 grains of H110 in a Ruger NEW VAQUERO. I have used that load in mine with excellent results. I repeat A NEW VAQUERO. Yes he knows it is the smaller framed Vaquero.
I even asked about the RCBS 270 SAA bullet and he said 24 GRAINS H110 is okay and he uses WLP primers.
He recommends HS-6 for a medium load.
Power Pistol is great in a 45 Colt too. It is in the books.
You may have to spring for a more suitable powder if you want lower medium loads or higher low loads.

Do you have a link to this information from John Linebaugh? All I've found about these medium frame revolvers limit them to 23Kpsi loads

[44MAG#1]

Removed by 44MAG#1

[DougGuy]

I ran this through QL using 2400, and it is likely the best powder for tier2 loads with that Lee RF boolit.

Excuse the attachment, PhotoGarbage is not working properly so the pic will be a little small..

This is for the Lee C452-255-RF boolit @ 1.600" COA in a 5.5" barrel, with a max of 23,000psi set for pressure in QL. Powder is Alliant 2400.

206952

Would be nice to have John Linebaugh's pressure chart to go along with those loads. According to QL, 24.0gr of H110 is not a dangerous load with the Lee C452-255-RF @ 1.600" COA.

It SHOULD be noted that this is not the same boolit that is listed in the Hodgdon data as being near 30,000psi and it is not the same boolit as listed in Linebaugh's data as a 260gr Keith boolit.

[44MAG#1]

Okay, okay let's drop this. I am wrong, John Linebaugh is wrong.
As was said in the thread "Load Data Error", just a few days ago by Larry Gibson, that is now made a sticky in Cast Bullets section, any data, even your Quickload and John Linebaugh and Elmer Keith can be can be in error. We all know this.
I am sorry I even posted what I did.

[DougGuy]

Oh I don't intend for this to be a "who's wrong who's right" thread by any means.

44MAG#1 I have respected your opinions and posts for a long time here and I didn't set out to prove you wrong. That was never my intent. I posted for cautionary reasons first, because I did find a conflict with JL's load and what is posted at Hodgdon.

Many of our favorite time tested loads are no longer published because it is lawyer happy territory and companies like firearms manufacturers, powder and component manufacturers have to back it down so that there is no chance they will face litigation because someone took their product and read on the internet somewhere that XX number of grains of powder is a great load for killing 9' Kodiak bears with a Model 17 revolver.

Snowflakes have wetted down every corner of the world we know.

[44MAG#1]

"Many of our favorite time tested loads are no longer published because it is lawyer happy territory and companies like firearms manufacturers, powder and component manufacturers have to back it down so that there is no chance they will face litigation because someone took their product and read on the internet somewhere that XX number of grains of powder is a great load for killing 9' Kodiak bears with a Model 17 revolver."

That all is well and good. But it has gotten to the point that everyone tries to be everyone's protector. I am "old school". If anyone Googles, Yahoo!'s, Foxfires, etc. any loads they should always know to be careful. I hold children's hands and elderly people hands for safety. Not everyone hands to protect them from themselves.
It has gotten ridiculous. People have used loads previously published over the years and small amounts of people have had trouble, people still have trouble even today. Double charges, reading data wrong, setting their scales wrong. What do we suppose to do for goodness sake. Remember the load Col. Jeff Cooper recommended for the M36's using Red Dot that people raised Cain over. People raise Cain over the Keith load. That what people do. They raise Cain.
I'll say this. I have reloaded since I was roughly 17.5 years old. I am now 65. I am no dummy or imbecile. I would have never used Linebaugh's load if I though for one minute he didn't know what he was talking about.
I even pressed him on if he was Talking about a NEW VAQUERO. He was. Did you know while the inside cylinder walls of a NEW VAQUERO are thinner than a Smith N frame Mountain Gun the outside wall are thicker? I have both and can read a dial caliper.
I have a letter from Hercules that you need to read to scare you even more about 2400 and the Keith load for the 44 Mag. I am not going to go through a photo hosting site to post it. Lest it start something on there.
If you would like to read it send me a way to get the picture to you other than this forum. It was a Keith load I sent them to test.

[Tripplebeards]

Thanks for running that Doug. Looks like I can run up to 20g of 2400 and stay under 23,000psi and almost hit 1,200fps using my Lee 255g FN .I'll have to see what hodgen says about lil gun when they email me back or I'm going to have find someone who sells 2400. That's plenty horse power for my whitetails, black bear, and anything else on the planet or in my neck of the woods.

[DougGuy]

The pressures with H110 don't look so scary either, but it doesn't burn very much of the powder and the push just isn't there like it is with 2400. About the same with LilGun. Maybe I should run it with AA#9 since it is often very comparable to 2400 in performance, not charge weights.

I run H110 under the 250gr LBT WFN-PB, the LBT WFN-GC, and the LBT OWC in 45 Schofield brass. 21.5gr gets me 1200fps with either of those three in a 5.5" NMV like yours. From those tests and load development with QL, Case length is .185" shorter, 41.6gr water capacity for the 45 Colt, and I think 37gr for the Schofield, it seemed like the amount of H110 for the 45 Colt was a MUCH larger difference than the comparisons of case length and capacity. This was sorta alarming, but it did the same thing with LilGun. it would seem to me that the differences in charge weight ought to be more in line with the differences in case length and case capacity, because we are talking about roughly the same boolit weight so why so much more H110? That's why I didn't post the QL results for H110 because it just doesn't L@@K right.

Almost 40yrs ago an old white haired port engineer in the shipyard was inspecting bow thruster piping I had installed in a boat, he passed it, and he said something that I have YET to prove wrong. He said "Son, if it don't look right, it AIN'T right." That has stuck with me since that day. The H110 charges just don't look right.

44MAG#1 sure I will PM you an email to send that letter to.

[Tripplebeards]

Yeah, ill stay away from h110 for now, I was getting 1675fps in my 77/44 with a 265g devistator using 19g of h110. ..21.5g seems like a way over pressured load and dosent sound right to me as well.

[DougGuy]

21.5gr H110 is what I used in 45 Schofield brass. That wouldn't be an overload in 45 Colt brass but it may be under the recommended minimum charge for that boolit weight, and you know not to download H110/W296 I presume..

With H110, there is a LARGE difference in QL data and Linebaugh's loads, and what Hodgdon data says for pressure.

[ddixie884]

This is very interesting......

[quail4jake]

Oh boy, this is making me nervous! I own a 2008 New Vaquero 7 1/2" "cavalry model" that groups very well with 250 gr LFP and 5 gr Titegroup. I wanted to make a 250 gr JHP HV load so I called Ruger and was told that the New Vaquero can safely fire any .45 LC load right up to the published top without danger or damage. Sooo...I loaded the Hodgdon published 24 gr of Lilgun behind a Hornady 250 gr XTP with incredible grouping and chrono @ 1420 fps SD 12. This is my favorite deer hunting load but I wear a glove to shoot it and hold my teeth right, the muzzle flash at dusk is bright white about 12" ball of flame. I just didn't want to be abused that badly so I've dropped back to a Longshot load at 1225 fps SD 7 that groups as well but treats an old fella kinder. Now I wonder if I was taking a risk, anyway to answer the question....don't reduce Lilgun, drop back to Longshot following Hodgdon data. Best wishes!

[DougGuy]

Oh boy, this is making me nervous! I own a 2008 New Vaquero 7 1/2" "cavalry model" that groups very well with 250 gr LFP and 5 gr Titegroup. I wanted to make a 250 gr JHP HV load so I called Ruger and was told that the New Vaquero can safely fire any .45 LC load right up to the published top without danger or damage. Sooo...

Usually all Ruger will tell you is that they are safe with any factory ammo, and they MEAN factory 45 Colt, as in the standard 14,000psi loading. You say you spoke to Ruger and they said it was good to the published top? Were they specifically meaning ANY published data for 45 Colt? Even the Ruger Only loads?

Does your Vaquero have a 2 digit or 3 digit prefix in the serial number?

[quail4jake]

I'll look at the SN. My call to Ruger was almost 10 years ago and I don't know who I talked to but I made it clear that I was talking about "Ruger only" handloading data. Anyway, I'd like to update that with you and others on this forum and adjust my practices accordingly because I think the more reliable information is here. Thanks, I will check on that SN prefix.

[Tripplebeards]

Usually all Ruger will tell you is that they are safe with any factory ammo, and they MEAN factory 45 Colt, as in the standard 14,000psi loading. You say you spoke to Ruger and they said it was good to the published top? Were they specifically meaning ANY published data for 45 Colt? Even the Ruger Only loads?

Does your Vaquero have a 2 digit or 3 digit prefix in the serial number?

The last time I called them they wanted to make sure I wasn't shooting "reloads" through it so I would assume they were referring to factory loaded "published" ammunition.

[quail4jake]

Usually all Ruger will tell you is that they are safe with any factory ammo, and they MEAN factory 45 Colt, as in the standard 14,000psi loading. You say you spoke to Ruger and they said it was good to the published top? Were they specifically meaning ANY published data for 45 Colt? Even the Ruger Only loads?

Does your Vaquero have a 2 digit or 3 digit prefix in the serial number?
SN is 510-23xxx

[DougGuy]

SN is 510-23xxx

That's what I thought when you said 2008. That definitely IS the medium frame gun, the cylinder is shorter, smaller in OD and the cylinder walls and webs are thinner than the older 2 digit prefix full size original Vaquero. Even though Ruger called it (the full size one) the New Vaquero as well, which is stupid because they never made an old model (3 screw) Vaquero, and it is quite confusing at times. So now we have the New Vaquero (Original large frame 2 digit prefix serial number) made 1993 to 2005, and the New Model Vaquero (medium frame gun with 3 digit prefix serial number) made 2005 to present

That's the gun we commonly associate with the 23,000psi pressure ceiling. The logic behind this is that Ruger chambered these in 45 ACP and they openly stated the gun was safe with 45 ACP+P pressure, which is 23,000psi. The cylinder walls and web thicknesses are the same for the 45 Colt cylinder as they are for the 45 ACP cylinder so it would only be logical to deduce that both cylinders are basically the same strength if you associate strength with thickness of the walls and webs. That is how this came about.

I can't see Ruger admitting or even alluding to this gun being safe with "published" loads and including ALL published data (Ruger Only and T/C as well as standard 45 Colt) I think they must have intended this conversation to mean "All published standard 45 Colt loads." It would be interesting to get them to clarify what they meant at that time. Keywords: at that time.

Is yours a case colored model? Off topic but I'd like to buy one of those, case color frame 45 with 7 1/2" barrel..