Rossi 92 rechambering?

[The Lord Flashheart]

Bear with me on this one chaps as I appreciate it will sound mad to most of you...

We have some rather restrictive gun laws in the UK which allied with the range rules at my rifle club mean that I have a rather strange set of requirements which I am exploring options for.

We have to apply to the police for each and every rifle on a case by case basis giving the cartridge that we want it to be chambered for and the use to which we will be putting it, establishing what is called "good reason" in law. This means that if one is applying for a rifle to be used for target shooting and/or hunting you have to provide evidence you have somewhere where you have somewhere to shoot targets as a member of a rifle club and/or somewhere to hunt.

This means that if a chap wanted a lever action carbine to hunt and shoot targets with, it would have to be both legal to hunt in terms of minimum muzzle energy for the species
sought and also be suitable for the range template at the club he is a member of.

The minimum energy level and calibre for a rifle used for hunting deer in the UK, ranging from 10kg Muntjac does to 200kg Red stags, is 1700 ft/lbs at the muzzle and at least 0.240" in bore.

The maximum calibre permitted at the range at my club is 0.455" and maximum muzzle energy is 500 ft/lbs.

They permit hand loads but do not permit reduced loads in rifle cases as there have been incidents of "mix ups" where people have shot full power loads "by accident" through their rifles on our indoor ranges...

With these boxes to be ticked it seemed to me that the .454 Casull filled the brief as it could be used with full throttle loads for hunting and 45 Colt ( or downloaded to equivalent) loads for indoor use.

The problem is that Rossi seem to be the only people to make a handy lever action in this chambering and further that with the UK being such a tiny market none of them have been or are likely to be imported here.

There are plenty of 45 Colt examples about however.

How feasible is it to have a gunsmith rechamber one to 454 Casull?

Would it feed?

[markX]

Texhnically it is easy...lengthen the chamber with a reamer...assuming the rifle will let you load and cycle with the longer cartridge. Issue would be pressure. The 454 really cranks it up. If the lever action is only built for 45 cowboy loads for example it wouldn’t be safe with casull pressures.

I know it’s not a lever action, but TC makes an encore in 460 sw. This would allow you to shoot 460, 454, and 45 colt easily interchangeable.

Other consideration would be find out if the lever is approved for 45 colt +p+ type loads like from buffalo bore, or grizzly. I shoot them out of my 45 colt revolvers and they approach 454 performance. From a carbine barrel they would maybe equal the 454 from a handgun.

Good luck!!!

[Petrol & Powder]

I don't know if it's available or in your price range but I would consider the Marlin chambered in 44 Mag over the Rossi in 45 Colt.

The 44 would give you the option of 44 magnum or 44 Special.

[phonejack]

An Encore would be a much more practical choice.

[The Lord Flashheart]

Texhnically it is easy...lengthen the chamber with a reamer...assuming the rifle will let you load and cycle with the longer cartridge. Issue would be pressure. The 454 really cranks it up. If the lever action is only built for 45 cowboy loads for example it wouldn’t be safe with casull pressures.

I know it’s not a lever action, but TC makes an encore in 460 sw. This would allow you to shoot 460, 454, and 45 colt easily interchangeable.

Other consideration would be find out if the lever is approved for 45 colt +p+ type loads like from buffalo bore, or grizzly. I shoot them out of my 45 colt revolvers and they approach 454 performance. From a carbine barrel they would maybe equal the 454 from a handgun.

Good luck!!!

Hi Mark,

I understand that the Rossi is factory chambered in 454 Casull and hence my interest in this particular model over, say, a Chiappa or Uberti 1892.

Is it reasonable to assume that the guns themselves won't be any different save for the chambering?

[The Lord Flashheart]

I don't know if it's available or in your price range but I would consider the Marlin chambered in 44 Mag over the Rossi in 45 Colt.

The 44 would give you the option of 44 magnum or 44 Special.

Price isn't really an issue but those muzzle energy limits and thresholds are.

Would a 44 magnum make 1700 ft/lbs from a 20-22" barrel?

[The Lord Flashheart]

An Encore would be a much more practical choice.

But a single shot, sadly.

We shoot level action rifles in gallery rifles as a sort of poor substitute for pistol shooting over here, same events as practical and IPSC pistol but shot with a rifle, and so it has to be a repeater.

[KCSO]

You can safely load the Rossi to an effective hunting round in 45 Colt without any change to to the gun. See Paco Kelly's load data on Levergun.com. No need to change anything. If a 250 grain bullet at 1550 or better from the 20" Rossi won't do it nothing will.

[texassako]

Price isn't really an issue but those muzzle energy limits and thresholds are.

Would a 44 magnum make 1700 ft/lbs from a 20-22" barrel?

Looks like .44 Mag is close. http://www.ballisticsbytheinch.com/44mag.html

[The Lord Flashheart]

Looks like .44 Mag is close. http://www.ballisticsbytheinch.com/44mag.html



Sadly even that hydrashok load only makes 1450 ft/lbs.

I have no doubt it kill deer, I hasten to add, just that we have to jump through these hoops and if it doesn't make the energy level they will only give it to me for target work. :/

[RobS]

http://www.leverguns.com/articles/paco/45coltlevergun.htm

[The Lord Flashheart]

You can safely load the Rossi to an effective hunting round in 45 Colt without any change to to the gun. See Paco Kelly's load data on Levergun.com. No need to change anything. If a 250 grain bullet at 1550 or better from the 20" Rossi won't do it nothing will.

I looked up Mr Kelly's load data, wow...

Isn't 454 caull brass stronger than 45 colt brass?

[The Lord Flashheart]

http://www.leverguns.com/articles/paco/45coltlevergun.htm

So... reading between the lines there is not as much difference between the 45 colt and the 454 casull as long as one is a handloader?

[KCSO]

How will your game warden determine the exact muzzle energy of your rounds? Do you have to submit a sample prior to hunting submit loading data? Here our game warden looked at the rifle and looked at the round and I told him how it was loaded and he said" That should do it".

As to the 454 the first 454's used Colt brass albeit not as stout a load as some now. Hence Paco's loads for the Colt in MODERN STRONG rifles, not for the 73's.

[RobS]

So... reading between the lines there is not as much difference between the 45 colt and the 454 casull as long as one is a handloader?

Yep.......if one is a sound, responsible handloader. The 454 Casull will push more velocity of course due to the longer case (case volume) and higher pressures however most applications for hunting in which a 454 Casull lever action was intended can be done with a properly handloaded 45 Colt in a strong/modern firearm. I use to have 454 Casull revolvers, now I only own a Ruger Redhawk 45 Colt and load it to Ruger Only pressures (30K) and call it a day. I use the same loads in my Rossi 454 Casull and clean the chamber out each time to prevent the carbon buildup at the end of the chamber due to using 45 Colt brass. I do have some 454 Casull cases for the just in case situation that would/will probably never happen.

[The Lord Flashheart]

How will your game warden determine the exact muzzle energy of your rounds? Do you have to submit a sample prior to hunting submit loading data? Here our game warden looked at the rifle and looked at the round and I told him how it was loaded and he said" That should do it".

As to the 454 the first 454's used Colt brass albeit not as stout a load as some now. Hence Paco's loads for the Colt in MODERN STRONG rifles, not for the 73's.

Unfortunately its not the game warden at point of hunt I have to worry about but the police licensing authorities at the point of applying for permission to acquire the rifle.

If I write to them and say "I would like a 45 Colt for range use" they would reply back with "Certainly sir" but if I were to say I wanted it for hunting deer they would consult COTW and come back with something along the lines of the "The 45 Colt does not produce enough muzzle energy for your stated purpose and therefore we are declining your application".

So I would never get hold of it in the first place. :/

If I apply for a 30-30 or a 45-70 the opposite would hold as they know the range energy limits.

Fun eh?

[The Lord Flashheart]

Yep.......if one is a sound, responsible handloader. The 454 Casull will push more velocity of course due to the longer case (case volume) and higher pressures however most applications for hunting can be done with a properly handloaded 45 Colt in a strong/modern firearm. I use to have 454 Casull revolvers, now I only own a Ruger Redhawk 45 Colt and load it to Ruger Only pressures (30K) and call it a day. I use the same loads in my Rossi 454 Casull and clean the chamber out each time to prevent the carbon buildup at the end of the chamber due to using 45 Colt brass. I do have some 454 Casull cases for the just in case situation that would/will probably never happen.

Sounds reasonable.

So the 45 Colt cases are just as strong as the 454?

I ask as, for example, privi brass has the same internal volume as Lapua in my 3006 but the lapua brass can take much stiffer loads.

[vzerone]

Sir the 45 Colt brass isn't as thick in the web as the 454 brass. The 45 Colt can be loaded to higher pressure as long as the brass fits the chamber without much slop. For example you can use the 45 Colt brass in the stout revolvers chambered for the 454. Think of cartridge brass as a gasket to seal the breech end of a barrel. On an automobile engine if your head bolts are loose your gasket will leak! One of our famous gun magazine writers, Layne Simpson, was answering a question where a gentleman wanted to rebarrel a Browning made 1892 leveraction in 44 Magnum to 454. This is before any company come out with 92's in 454. Mr Simpson told him a firm no as the action wasn't designed for the pressure. Those Rossi 454's may have different steel and heat treatment then the other calibers. We have the problem over here with the 38 Special S&W. Some think you can just ream the cylinders to 357 Magnum. Smith & Wesson says no they are heat treated differently. Somewhere inbetween lies the truth. Unfortunately the TC Encore in 460 S&W seems the way for you even though it's a single shot. It's too bad it's not a good idea to shoot 44 Special or 44 Magnum from a 444 Marlin or it may have sufficed for you.

[RobS]

No not quite as strong due to the head of the brass having a large primer vs a small primer however one would not be pushing 454 Casull levels either. It has been proven that modern 45 Colt brass is just as strong 44 Magnum and loads from Paco Kelly show this as does John Linebaugh's information and testing. Here is another nice read regards to upper 45 Colt development and there is a section talking about the case strength later on down in the article.
https://www.johnlinebaughcustomsixguns.com/writings


In reality it comes down to the chamber of the revolver or rifle as it relates to the brass life. Some 45 Colt chambers are rather large so the brass can be worked pretty hard. I have both a 454 Casull Rossi (Puma imported by LSI not the current Braztech models) and then a Rossi 45 Colt (Braztech) and the chamber of the Braztech 45 Colt is very sloppy in comparison.

[earlmck]

There are plenty of 45 Colt examples about however.

How feasible is it to have a gunsmith rechamber one to 454 Casull?

Would it feed?

For your purposes you need to be able to use factory 454 ammo to make the hunting power factor and cowboy level 45 colt factory at the gun club. So yes, you need the re-chamber to 454. You will need to cut back the cartridge-stopping bump on the lifter to accommodate the longer 454 rounds (which may or may not result in 45 colt not feeding great). And be aware that Rossi now (after the first rifles failed) threads the magazine tube into the receiver because the recoil of the 454 will eventually cause the regular-style magazine tube to come dis-attached. So maybe don't use a whole bunch of 454 level loads?

[vzerone]

Just so you know it recoil in a light 92 with a full house 454 is noticeable!! LOL

[Speedo66]

Word is that the Rossi .454 has different heat treating and a .45 model is not the same. Go to www.rossi-rifleman.com for everything you ever wanted to know about Rossi's.

[vzerone]

Word is that the Rossi .454 has different heat treating and a .45 model is not the same. Go to www.rossi-rifleman.com for everything you ever wanted to know about Rossi's.

That's what I suspected all along.

[pirkfan]

My understanding is that there are differences in the tubular magazine on the 454 vs 45 colt (threaded into the receiver vs an extension of the magazine plug screw holding the magazine in place, and has a removable inner magazine tube in addition to the receiver loading gate.) Even with the 45 colt carbines there have been issues with recoil causing the magazine to jump the magazine plug screw which acts as a retainer pin at the end of the barrel and sliding out of the fore grip. This could be a significant problem with a 454 conversion. The 454 buttstock also has a recoil pad unlike the 45 colt, and for good reason. I don't own a 454 casull Rossi, but do own a Ruger super redhawk 454, and can tell you that the difference in recoil between even hot 45 colt loads and 454 casull loads is significant, very significant in that handgun.

[The Lord Flashheart]

For your purposes you need to be able to use factory 454 ammo to make the hunting power factor and cowboy level 45 colt factory at the gun club. So yes, you need the re-chamber to 454. You will need to cut back the cartridge-stopping bump on the lifter to accommodate the longer 454 rounds (which may or may not result in 45 colt not feeding great). And be aware that Rossi now (after the first rifles failed) threads the magazine tube into the receiver because the recoil of the 454 will eventually cause the regular-style magazine tube to come dis-attached. So maybe don't use a whole bunch of 454 level loads?


You have it exactly right, thank you for the information. We can't even get spares over here for Rossis and so the chances of ordering a 454 lifter are slim to non-existant.

I will let the gunsmith know about the magazine issue but in the meanwhile would be extremely grateful if anyone has a photograph or drawing of the two lifters for comparison purposes?

[The Lord Flashheart]

Word is that the Rossi .454 has different heat treating and a .45 model is not the same. Go to www.rossi-rifleman.com for everything you ever wanted to know about Rossi's.

I searched that forum but couldn't find a reference to the heat treatment, it sounds unlikely that a production line facility like Braztech would go to the trouble but it is possible.

Is there an reference to this?

[Speedo66]

Here is an excerpt I pulled from an old thread here on Castboolits.

"When the Puma .454 arrived, the first thing I did was to call Glen Ruh at Legacy Sports International to ask him how Rossi had been able to adapt the 1892 design to the hot Casull cartridge. Ruh explained that the metallurgy and heat treatment had been modified to handle the high pressure and that the carbine had been thoroughly torture tested by H.P. White Laboratories using standard factory ammunition."

There's also an article on Gunblast Magazine where Paco Kelly says he heard the .454 had different heat treating, but that he didn't believe it.

Who really knows except Rossi themselves? Maybe if you got the right customer service rep on the phone they could tell you for sure.

[The Lord Flashheart]

Here is an excerpt I pulled from an old thread here on Castboolits.

"When the Puma .454 arrived, the first thing I did was to call Glen Ruh at Legacy Sports International to ask him how Rossi had been able to adapt the 1892 design to the hot Casull cartridge. Ruh explained that the metallurgy and heat treatment had been modified to handle the high pressure and that the carbine had been thoroughly torture tested by H.P. White Laboratories using standard factory ammunition."

There's also an article on Gunblast Magazine where Paco Kelly says he heard the .454 had different heat treating, but that he didn't believe it.

Who really knows except Rossi themselves? Maybe if you got the right customer service rep on the phone they could tell you for sure.


I saw that but thought it would make more sense to do that for all 92 rather than pull a few off the production line and re-heat treat them especially.

Calling Rossi sounds like a labour in vain, especially this side of the pond.

Have any of you guys tried?

[denul]

Winchester made their model 94 in 45 Colt which handles very heavy 45 Colt loads easily, and with an action already designed to take longer and higher pressure Factory cartridges, the conversion to 454 Casull would probably be much easier, perhaps as simple as reaming the chamber. I'm guessing that all of these caliber converting options are more easily achieved than starting your own club with cartridge limitations designed to meet the needs of hunters.

[pietro]

Is it reasonable to assume that the guns themselves won't be any different save for the chambering?





Sorry, but no, it's not.

The .454 operating pressures are much higher and the cases longer than those of the .45 Colt.

For that reason, Rossi takes extra measures with their Model 92's chambered for the .454 Casull.

To wit:

The receivers are especially hardened to handle the .454's higher pressures over time - also know as: you may be able to re-chamber a .45 Colt to .454, and actually shoot it, but you'll never know when the time suddenly comes when the standard receiver can no longer tolerate the higher pressure to your detriment.

AFAIK, the .45 Colt cartridge lifter would have to be either altered to handle the longer .454, or replaced with a .454 lifter.

The magazine tube of .454 Model 92's are threaded into the front face of the receiver, ILO simply held in place with a few crosspins - which translates to the fact that a non-threaded/standard .45 magazine tube will shortly work it's way forward under recoil, thereby turning the lever-action repeater into a jam-o-matic single shot.

FYI, a standard .45 Colt Model 92 is suitable for both your purposes, supposing that high-performance .45 Colt loads (like Cor-Bon or Buffalo Bore) are used for hunting; and lower-performance "Cowboy" loads are used for target shooting.

.

[RPRNY]

A 454 Casull case is 1/10" longer than a 45 LC case, not because the extra 1/10" case capacity allows loads that deliver velocities like 250 grs at 2200 ft per second in a 20" rifle, but to stop people chambering such loads in a firearm designed for the 45LC.

SAAMI Max Pressure for the 454 Casull is 65,000 psi. Do not lengthen the chamber on a Rossi in 45 LC and fire 454 Casull loads in it. You and the rifle will be injured.

There are those who will tell you that because the R92 is also chambered in 44Mag with a SAAMI max pressure of 36,000 psi, you can safely shoot 45 LC loads labelled in manuals as " Ruger and Freedom Arms Only" loads. I am not telling you that. But if you were to look at such loads using H110 (or its available UK equivalent) and were to find a load delivering less than 36,000 psi that met the 1700 ft/lbs muzzle minimum for deer (an absurd requirement unless stalking in Scotland) and were to only use such loads for hunting, then there are those who would say you were not running any undue risk

But I don't know that we have achieved anything. An R92 in 45LC will not, under CIP specs, meet your deer minimums and a 454 Casull will exceed your range maximums.

What about the 444 Marlin? Straight walled case, takes .429 " bullets. Delivers plenty of killing power and can be loaded down to range levels. Would it pass muster with the authorities? Pedersoli offer a couple of different models of the 1886 Win in 444 Marlin.

What about black powder loads? Winchester or Browning have done several runs of 1886 lever guns chambered in 40-65 and so has Pedersoli, so possibly available in the UK. Loaded with Black Powder or smokeless and 260 grs + lead bullets gets you the requisite 1700 ft/lbs at the muzzle, but loaded down with BP, filler (cornmeal) or wads, or a load of pistol powder like Unique, and a light bullet, gets you under your range max. Worth a thought.

[MT Chambers]

I wouldn't feel confident with a Win. 94 operating at 65000psi, even an "AE" or Big Bore.

[The Lord Flashheart]

Thanks for the further replies, certainly enough to give pause for thought.

Sadly no downloaded rifle rounds like the .444 as the range won't allow them.

The idea behind the casual bit is to satisfy the legislative requirement for x ftlbs from a factory cartridge, there is no need to necessarily load it to the 65k psi level on my part. ;)

[RPRNY]

Thanks for the further replies, certainly enough to give pause for thought.

Sadly no downloaded rifle rounds like the .444 as the range won't allow them.

The idea behind the casual bit is to satisfy the legislative requirement for x ftlbs from a factory cartridge, there is no need to necessarily load it to the 65k psi level on my part. ;)

But what I don't grasp is how you meet the requirements for range and hunting use. If you apply for a license for the 45 Casull chambered Rossi, then they will grant you a license for hunting use but deny it for range use. If you were to apply for a license for an R92 chambered in 45LC, they would deny you hunting use. I don't understand how you propose to get around this. If you are granted a range use license for an R92 chambered in 45 LC, and then lengthen the chamber by 1/10" would you not then have to reapply for a hunting use license, at which time presumably they would pull your range use license?

[The Lord Flashheart]

On the basis that the rifle is actually chambered for both the 45 colt and the 454 Casull, in much the same way as our we apply for 38 Spec./357 magnum or .44Spec/.44 magnum for the respective lever action rifles otherwise we would not be able to buy the type of ammo not specified if we went for one or the other.

It's a real pain in the ****, not to put too find a point on it... :/

Thank god for the second amendment chaps, or this ******** would be familiar...

[RPRNY]

Got it, thanks. Yes, rather a bother. Best of luck.

[pietro]

On the basis that the rifle is actually chambered for both the 45 colt and the 454 Casull, in much the same way as our we apply for 38 Spec./357 magnum or .44Spec/.44 magnum for the respective lever action rifles otherwise we would not be able to buy the type of ammo not specified if we went for one or the other.

It's a real pain in the ****, not to put too find a point on it... :/

Thank god for the second amendment chaps, or this ******** would be familiar...


I cannot imagine the Cor-Bon high-performance (+P) .45 Colt factory ammo (1300fps/1126fpe) not fulfilling the hunting portion of your laws, and factory Cowboy ammo (706fps/220fpe) meeting the target requirements - all in the same .45 Colt chambered rifle.

https://shopcorbon.com/Handgun-Calibers/45-Colt/HT45C300JSP-20

https://www.midwayusa.com/product/577710/magtech-cowboy-action-ammunition-45-colt-long-colt-200-grain-lead-flat-nose-box-of-50


.

[ulav8r]

Rossi hasn't passed on the information to anyone that has passed it on to the public, but it is a possibility that they use a more expensive alloy for the 454 that gives more strength than the metal used for 45's and 44's. Since they make more rifles in all other calibers than in 454 it is easy to believe their bean counters make them use the better alloy only for the 454's.

[seetrout]

What am I missing here?
If your "gun seller" sells Rossi in .45colt, .44mag etc he has to order them from somewhere.
Why can't he order you one in .454?!?

[BigEyeBob]

My understanding is that there are differences in the tubular magazine on the 454 vs 45 colt (threaded into the receiver vs an extension of the magazine plug screw holding the magazine in place, and has a removable inner magazine tube in addition to the receiver loading gate.) Even with the 45 colt carbines there have been issues with recoil causing the magazine to jump the magazine plug screw which acts as a retainer pin at the end of the barrel and sliding out of the fore grip. This could be a significant problem with a 454 conversion. The 454 buttstock also has a recoil pad unlike the 45 colt, and for good reason. I don't own a 454 casull Rossi, but do own a Ruger super redhawk 454, and can tell you that the difference in recoil between even hot 45 colt loads and 454 casull loads is significant, very significant in that handgun.

Had the same magazine problem with my Rossi 92 in 357 with very stout loads . I fixed the issue by machining a larger screw and retapping the magazine plug to suit , and drilling the locating hole deeper . I was able to achieve this because of the thick walled octagonal barrel.

[BigEyeBob]

On the basis that the rifle is actually chambered for both the 45 colt and the 454 Casull, in much the same way as our we apply for 38 Spec./357 magnum or .44Spec/.44 magnum for the respective lever action rifles otherwise we would not be able to buy the type of ammo not specified if we went for one or the other.

It's a real pain in the ****, not to put too find a point on it... :/

Thank god for the second amendment chaps, or this ******** would be familiar...

We have similar laws here in Australia ,but they vary State to State . The laws inhibit those who are law abiding and do the right thing .The criminals dont abide by the laws and just continue to get away with thier crimes and the law abiding are crushed even further.

[pietro]

What am I missing here?

If your "gun seller" sells Rossi in .45colt, .44mag etc he has to order them from somewhere.

Why can't he order you one in .454?!?




What you're missing is that the OP resides in the United Kingdom (aka: England - not New England or Kalifornia) - where the laws/permits regarding buying and/or possession of ANY firearms are quite different than in most US states.

.

[The Lord Flashheart]

What am I missing here?
If your "gun seller" sells Rossi in .45colt, .44mag etc he has to order them from somewhere.
Why can't he order you one in .454?!?

The importer informs me that there are two chances of getting a rossi 454, Bob Hope and no hope.

Bob Hope is dead and so that leaves...

As a friend who works for one of the major US arms companies told me, there are single gunshops in Texas that order more shooting bits from them in a year than the whole of the UK, it seems we are down the pecking order somewhat...