SMLE in .45-70

[richhodg66]

I've become pretty enamored with the .45-70 of late. I also have a badly bubba'd Lee Enfield that the action is sound on, but isn't good for much. Gibbs imported something similar to what I'd like, but they are hard to get ahold of.

More trouble than it's worth?

[richhodg66]

Oooops. Meant to post this in special projects, can someone please move it where it belongs?

[elk hunter]

If you're talking repeater the hard part will be the magazine. I believe Gibbs used a single stack one in order to get their rifle to feed.

If you're planning a single shot it shouldn't be a big problem to blank off the magazine well and single load.

[firebyprolong]

I have one of the Gibbs / navy arms 45-70 carbines on a number 4 action. It's a fun rifle. You have to open up the left side of the action and do some ramp work but they will feed. Thd 45-70 rim is just enough bigger to be a pain. You have to slightly under cut the extactor to get it to grip rims . The mag is just a single stack with two tabs that center the round being fed. I would think I guy could modify a pro mag and it would work. Mine is in pieces right now ready to go into the blueing tank. Navy arms built them on really rough actions and powder coated the actions to hide the pits. The more I shot it the more powdercoat flaked off. finally got sick of it and decided to fix it.

If your interested sarco has some actions already opened up for the 45-70 for less than it would cost to have them done.

[richhodg66]

I just spent some time looking around on Sarco's site and couldn't find ones that had been opened up. Could you post a link to where you saw them?

[curator]

Google Richard @ Special Interest Arms for Lee Enfield conversions. Or look for him on http://www.enfield-rifles.com in the "after market Enfield" section. His company does all kind of Enfield conversions

[Texas by God]

Kind of returning the Lee to its pre Enfield roots. I like it.

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[firebyprolong]

http://www.e-sarcoinc.com/barreled-receivers-and-receivers-for-3-and-4-enfield-and-308-2a.aspx
That's as close as I could get on the sight. They had them listed in there shotgun news ad last months as "a few left" let me see if they still have a them listed on paper. If they do I'll add the product number so you can call them about it. They kinda half *** there customer service just so you know.
Last time I checked special interest arms was completely out of the enfeild building business, kits no longer made. Just not enough actions laying around anymore to make it pay.

[marlinman93]

I have a gunsmith friend who built one using the .444 Marlin cartridge. So even the bolt face and extractor worked as is. That might be a better choice for a rework if you wanted to save some machine work. I believe his uses the box magazine to feed, but can't recall for sure?

[firebyprolong]

I just looked and I can't find those actions in sarcos paper ad either. They must have sold out, I'd seen them listed for so long I just figured they would still have them. My apologies all around.

[richhodg66]

No problem. I might just restock it and figure out some decent sights and leave it a .303. I could probably find a Gibbs or one of the Siamese Mausers if I really wanted a bolt gun.

[Spooksar]

I have one built by a local gunsmith in BC, he has acquired magazines after not having them fOr a few years, next time I'm up his way I'll ask.

[Traffer]

I have a gunsmith friend who built one using the .444 Marlin cartridge. So even the bolt face and extractor worked as is. That might be a better choice for a rework if you wanted to save some machine work. I believe his uses the box magazine to feed, but can't recall for sure?

I don't want to change the subject too much here but the 444 Marlin option sounds like a winner to me. I have heard that the .444 Marlin is versatile reloading round if the twist rate is changed. Which would be logical to do if converting a Lee Enfield.

[richhodg66]

Would save a lot of gunsmithing work too. I'm sure JES could do the rebore.

[richhodg66]

I'm kind of liking the .444 idea now. I have a Lyman mold that casts good, 300 grain SWCs I use in my inline. Especially with Ballard rifling, that could be a winner in the .444.

I remember someone discussing a .375 .303 British at some point?

[marlinman93]

We were shooting my friend's in .444 at a 18" steel plate 250 yds. distance, and it was no problem hitting it every time. A fun gun to shoot with cast .44 mag bullets! His is equipped with a old Lyman receiver sight, and globe front sight.

[kens]

Would it be easier to do it in .458x2" American??
That way the rim should fit the boltface straightforward.

[firebyprolong]

Is your rifle a #1 mk3 or a # 4. We are dealing with two different pressure limits here. The other thing to consider is that your still going to need to fit a new tube. There is just not enough meat in one for a rebore.
I would consider a stub in a 45-70 but not a 444. I don't consider the 444 a low pressure round. I would be consider a 444 on a #4 but not on any of the # 1s. 444s are lower pressure than the 303 but not by much and there both a lot hotter than a 45-70. That is unless your trying to turn one into a 458 win mag.
We are dealing with actions that could be up to a century old here. I do think a 444 sounds neat and would alleviate some of the machine work and probably feed better. I've got a couple of actions laying around too and I'm already feeding a marlin 444 anyway. I might have to play with this idea some. I'll see if they want to feed from a flat bar 45-70 mag this evening.

[Texas by God]

What is the largest calber the .303 can be necked up to?

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[firebyprolong]

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?318920-375-303/page2
Here's one of the 303-375 threads. I think the 375 is as far as you can go on the 303 case, but I'm getting to far into the tall grass here to be of much help. I thought I was walking on the wild side building one in 30-30 and reworking a 45-70. Man, did I underestimate the some of the real gun cranks here.

[longbow]

.303 brass can be cut to suit .416 for sure and I have an old article on the .44 Rhino which was a long cylinder revolver using cut off .30-40 Krag brass so .303 brass should do the same. I can't recall if the brass was reamed after trimming or not.

I was considering the Lee Enfield in .444 Marlin some time ago but never got to it. If I were to build one now I'd go .45-70 or cut off .30-40 Krag or .303 British for a wildcat round mostly because .444 is expensive and not common here and brass even less common but .303 is readily available. Of course things may be different where you are.

Another option is the .444 rimless based on .308/.30-06 brass head size. Likely need a different extractor in a Lee Enfield action though.

Not that there us anything wrong with the .303-.375. For me, I have lots of .44 moulds so I'd lean that way.

Different strokes.

Longbow

[marlinman93]

I use .303 British brass as donor material for my Rolling Block in .40-50SS. All .303 brass is not equal, and even inexpensive as it is, not all will easily expand out to .40 caliber, let alone .44 caliber!
I had several boxes of once fired .303 brass that was given to me, and lost nearly all of them during expansion process. Most simply split at some point, even though I expanded them in 5 steps to make it gradual. I tried to lightly anneal some to make expansion easier, but then shoulders set back and crumpled during expansion. I finally bought 100 brand new Remington cases and never lost another case expanding them to .40 caliber!
So beware what brass you use in .303 if you plan to use them as donors for larger calibers.

[Col4570]

206785
This is a 1871 Mauser single shot Rifle in 45.70 black Powder.It was an action and furniture that had been hanging about my workshop for a while.The barrel is 1in 20 twist.

[richhodg66]

Col4570, very nice rifle!

[longbow]

Did you anneal the brass before expanding? Just curious. I know what you mean about not all brass being created equal though. There is good and bad.

Also, there is a difference between expanding the .30 cal. neck to .40 or .44 than for that Rhino cartridge which was cut off at the neck so certainly some difference there.

I wonder if fire forming would be easier on necks?

[marlinman93]

Did you anneal the brass before expanding? Just curious. I know what you mean about not all brass being created equal though. There is good and bad.

Also, there is a difference between expanding the .30 cal. neck to .40 or .44 than for that Rhino cartridge which was cut off at the neck so certainly some difference there.

I wonder if fire forming would be easier on necks?

I started without annealing and got splits. Then annealed some and shoulders collapsed as I tried pushing in the expander dies. No way to get annealing to allow expansion, and not have the shoulder collapse too. Using the new Rem. brass as it came worked perfect! No splits, and no shoulders damaged.

[2152hq]

A tapered expander works a lot better to expand case necks than using the expander button on a FL Sizer die.
The latter may often be just too blunt and either splits the neck or collapses the case.

I made a simple tapered expander from an old 45acp expander. I needed one to expand from 30cal to 41cal,,making 401WSL out of 7.62x39mm.
I took the orig 45acp expander and turned it down to a taper of just under 30cal tapering to 41cal. Nothing fancy. Polished smooth.
The annealed AK cases can be simply expanded in one step from 30 to 41 cal with no loss.
If I had needed it at the time, I probably could have tapered it from 30 to 45 with the same results.

FWIW, I have a 35-303, actually two of them. One a LeeSpeed Sporter that I bought that way. The other a Watson Bros marked Martini Sporter that was a 303 and I had JES rebore to 35-303. Both are excellent shooters. Light loads w/ 357/38cal pistol bullets are fun with them too.
303 to 35cal gives no problems necking up with the use of a 35Remington FL sizing die. I use the 35Rem seater die for that purpose also for the caliber.

[arlon]

I have a Danish Krag converted to 45-70 but the bolt face is just a tiny bit to small for the 45-70 rim. I had to turn down the rims on a bunch of 45-70 brass a tiny bit to fit. Kind of a pain but no problem once it was done. It chambers, feeds and shoots pretty darn well once you get the brass working.

[Traffer]

206785
This is a 1871 Mauser single shot Rifle in 45.70 black Powder.It was an action and furniture that had been hanging about my workshop for a while.The barrel is 1in 20 twist.

She is a beauty. I bet it is a joy to shoot also.

[Col4570]

She is a beauty. I bet it is a joy to shoot also.
Yes it shoots good.65 grains 3f and a 405 grain Hollow base bullet.

[marlinman93]

A tapered expander works a lot better to expand case necks than using the expander button on a FL Sizer die.
The latter may often be just too blunt and either splits the neck or collapses the case.

I made a simple tapered expander from an old 45acp expander. I needed one to expand from 30cal to 41cal,,making 401WSL out of 7.62x39mm.
I took the orig 45acp expander and turned it down to a taper of just under 30cal tapering to 41cal. Nothing fancy. Polished smooth.
The annealed AK cases can be simply expanded in one step from 30 to 41 cal with no loss.
If I had needed it at the time, I probably could have tapered it from 30 to 45 with the same results.


A tapered expander works well IF the taper is gentle and the expander length is long enough. I have Lyman M dies in both Short and Long, and several dozen expander plugs to chose from, so I can take smaller steps to get to the end size I want. The expanders I like best are Lyman's rifle length expanders as the body of the plug is longer. They have a nice rounded end that slips into the case mouth easily if I keep the plug lubricated. I use Hornady spray case lube on the plug and also inside the case mouth.

[richhodg66]

Beginning to think in terms of making this one a .35 or .375. I cast for both bore sizes with good hunting bullets.

Could a .303 barrel be rebored to .375/.303? Does anyone make dies for this cartridge? Is load data available?

[longbow]

Check out JeffinNZ threads. I think he mentions both. It seems .303 Wildcats of larger than .303 are pretty common in both New Zealand and Australia.

Oddly not so in Canada... in my experience anyway.

IIRC I've read that a Lee Enfield barrel can be rebored to .35... okay, just checked and JES rebores Lee Enfield to .35-.303.

Check out this old thread too. Turns out Jeff has a .38 Hawkins (.375-.303).

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/archive/index.php/t-257771.html

A quick internet search hasn't told me that rebore to .375 is doable. Either one would be nice though and .35 is doable.

Keep us posted. Interesting project whichever way you go.

Longbow

[marlinman93]

Might consider making it a .40-50 Sharps Straight, like my old Rolling Block is chambered in. Same bolt face, rim diameter, but with a .410" bore. Simply open the .303 brass up, and cut the length to about 2" and load them up!
A wonderful little cartridge that does very well with smokeless or BP, due to it's small case volume. Very similar to a .38-55, but with a heavier bullet.

[Traffer]

Might consider making it a .40-50 Sharps Straight, like my old Rolling Block is chambered in. Same bolt face, rim diameter, but with a .410" bore. Simply open the .303 brass up, and cut the length to about 2" and load them up!
A wonderful little cartridge that does very well with smokeless or BP, due to it's small case volume. Very similar to a .38-55, but with a heavier bullet.
Would a 40-60 Maynard be based on the 303 case?

[marlinman93]

Would a 40-60 Maynard be based on the 303 case?

Yes, from the info I can find the Maynard could be made on the same .303 brass. But length will be an issue. .303 brass is around 2.2" long, where Maynard is 2.3" long. So your cases will all be short in the chamber.

Made an error on case length for the .40-50SS I make. It's 1.76" long, not 2" long.