Brass pressure problems in Mauser build

[kfd518]

I posted this in my thread about this rifle build but I feel I might get better answers in a separate thread.

Hornady 200 gr factory ammo rates at 2910 fps was running 3040,3039,3081 fps. Primers flattened.
49 grs of reloader 15 with Speer 250 hot cor, WLR primer was 2360 primers pushed and flat.
When inspecting cases after getting back home and taking measurements I noticed a ring around the casemouth on all fired cartridges reformed from 270 and the hornady factory 35 whelen. This ring mic'd at .3870 the neck below this ring is .3885-3890. I can feel said ring with thumb. Is this a tight spot from reaming the chamber?this is the First time rifle has been fired.
What might have caused this ring?

I cut the chamber myself, bolt closed 2/3 on no go but would not close completely.
Chamber was cut with elk ridge reamer rentals 35 whelen mfd by PT&G.
Brass length 2.4925 hornady and reformed 270 is 2.4795

206449206450206451

[vzerone]

Too bad it was a rental reamer, you could examine the reamer at that point. Primer flatness is not a guaranteed indication of safe and unsafe pressures. The fact alone primers vary in softness tells you this. To really know you need a pressure measure device such as a strain gage.

I wouldn't do anything to the chamber until you thoroughly investigated it and find the cause exactly.

[kfd518]

Yeah and no telling where that reamer is now or if it has been sharpened since then or incorrectly before I had it. Cero safe seems like a good next step i guess. The velocity of the hornady rounds seemed a bit to warm considering the advertised velocity. I believe I will check firing pin protrusion as well. Almost seems as they are getting pushed to far in the chamber somehow looking at how far backed out some of the primers were. That and possibly rougher than I though chamber walls.

[vzerone]

You could do a pound cast too instead of cero safe. If you had a bore scope you could get a good look at it too!

[kens]

is that some leftover bullet crimp??

[MostlyLeverGuns]

What sort of throat did the reamer cut? What is the chamber length, bolt face to end of case neck? A short necked chamber (per kens) or a too short or too tight throat can bump pressure.

[kfd518]

Hornady had a very slight roll crimp but nothing like what that. And did not appear to be any crimp on the reformed re-sized brass. There is not a crimp on any of the other brass.
As I stated earlier it is from elk ridge reamers. It showed to be a finish cut Saami spec reamer.
Looking at the reformed 270 It almost appears that when the firing pin strikes it is sent to far forward, jamming in the throat ever so slightly. When I am home I will measure primer protrusion vs case mouth neck ring depth.

[Larry Gibson]

"Hornady 200 gr factory ammo rates at 2910 for was run 3040,3039,3081 fps. Primers flattened."

A 35 Whelen?

[vzerone]

Get with the program Larry, it's their Superperformance ammo line.

https://www.hornady.com/ammunition/rifle/35-whelen-200-gr-sp-superformance#!/

[vzerone]

Hornady had a very slight roll crimp but nothing like what that. And did not appear to be any crimp on the reformed resided brass. There is not a crimp on any of the other brass.
As I stated earlier it is from elk ridge reamers. It showed to be a finish cut Saami spec reamer.

Looking at the reformed 270 It almost appears that when the firing pin strikes it it sent to far forward, jamming in the throat ever so slightly. When I am home I will measure primer protrusion vs case mouth neck ring depth.

So you're thinking that reformed 270 brass isn't head spacing on the shoulder datum line? If it is it would have to be one heck of a powerful firing pin spring! That Mauser claw would have a hold of the case too.

[kfd518]

I was actually thinking pin pushing all cartridges forward not just reformed. That claw is what has been getting me, because some of the primers are backed out a long way. But what you stated has crossed my mind as not possibly being the case as well. It is a brand new extractor as well. Need to take some measurements of unfired new brass resized and fired.
No pierced primers either which tells me pin protrusion shouldn't be it either. No bends in the rim either

[vzerone]

Strange, the number one thing when you see primer protusion in high pressure loads is exess head space, but that's not it in your case. You would think that the case is pushed back against the bolt face by the pressure and would reseat the primer. Have you fired any cases that were fired once, but neck sized only? That would tell us the case is snug in chamber and eliminate some things we have to thing about.

[runfiverun]

I'm thinking your case mouth is catching at the end of the chamber.

[vzerone]

I was going to ask if you trimmed them to the correct length?

[Multigunner]

Try military spec .30-06 cases, they should have a tougher shoulder.
Before they strengthened the 30-06 case shoulders simply rapid bolt manipulation could shorten the base to shoulder dimension up to .006". In the Marlin MG the action cycled with such force that the case mouth became restricted and caused excessive pressures and blown primers and separations. They set back the shoulder of the chamber to compensate.
Necking the .30 case up to .35 reduces the area of contact at the shoulder quite a bit.
Improper annealing of the neck can soften the shoulder as well. I had that problem with some 7.92 cases many years ago with similar though more pronounced effects.

But I guess you already know all that.
When the .35 Whelen first became popular it was recommended that only mil spec 06 cases be used since these were made stronger for use in autoloaders and MGs.

My .02

Try trimming a few cases about .006 or so below min spec, no shorter though.

[M-Tecs]

When inspecting cases after getting back home and taking measurements I noticed a ring around the casemouth on all fired cartridges reformed from to 270 and the hornady factory 35 whelen. This ring mic'd at .3870 the neck below this ring is .3885-3890. I can feel said ring with thumb. Is this a tight spot from reaming the chamber?

http://saami.org/specifications_and_information/index.cfm

The ring will be from a miss-ground or damaged reamer. Contact the rental company and have them send you a free usage replacement. Normally I have all my reamers custom ground in carbide with oil groove bushing. When I need an a one use reamer I order HSS and use it once and sell on ebay. Not really anymore hassle and normally more cost effective.

[vzerone]

http://saami.org/specifications_and_information/index.cfm

The ring will be from a miss-ground or damaged reamer. Contact the rental company and have them send you a free usage replacement. Normally I have all my reamers custom ground in carbide with oil groove bushing. When I need an a one use reamer I order HSS and use it once and sell on ebay. Not really anymore hassle and normally more cost effective.

I'm glad the poster didn't rent a reamer from 4D Rentals like I did. I had already used the reamer and sent it back and was reading on the internet reviews on 4D how Fred out there calls you and tells you that you will have to pay some on the reamer you just used because he tells you it came back and was in much need of sharpening. They said he has the reamer and there's no way you can inspect it. I goes "Nah" and sure enough later on that week I got a call from him saying what they posted. I just paid him the additional and was polite. That's it for him. From now on I'll just buy a new reamer and do as you said sell it.

I think the OP got some good advice here and should be able to resolve his problem.

[Larry Gibson]

Get with the program Larry, it's their Superperformance ammo line.

https://www.hornady.com/ammunition/rifle/35-whelen-200-gr-sp-superformance#!/

Well, duh....no kidding Sherlock......

It was a rhetorical question. The implication being that was awesome performance from a 35 Whelen. Apparently the implication went over your head.

[Larry Gibson]

I'm thinking your case mouth is catching at the end of the chamber.

kfd518

I concur with runfiverun. That's what it appears to me also. Are the formed cases a "crush" fit when chambered or did you just FL size in the Whelen die?

[curator]

A few decades ago, I built two .35 Whelen rifles using M98 actions. I had a lot of problems with headspacing/pressure signs/primer flattening with converted .30-06 brass. I was lucky to get 2 or 3 reloads before signs of incipient head separation would show. Military brass would give a few more reloads but problems would show up anyway. Ultimately, these rifles found new homes and I gave up on the .35 Whelen concept for several years. After seeing an ad for "reamer rentals" in .35 Whelen Ackley improved, I got the bug again and built another using a E.R. Shaw 1 in 14" twist barrel and a late Springfield '03 action. The Ackley Improved version has a sharp shoulder that resists set back. My "new" .35 Whelen Ackley Improved rifle does not have the problems of the older versions. Even reformed .270 Win. brass lasts 10 + loadings, primers look normal. I do fireform "new" cases with a medium load and bullets seated out to require a bit of effort in chambering. The Ackley improved version seems to be the fix for the common .35 Whelen woes, at least for me. The '03 Springfield action also allows for longer bullets/seating depth as well.

[swheeler]

"Brass length 2.4925 hornady and reformed 270 is 2.4795"
That seems awfully short for the formed 270 brass even after firing in the Whelen chamber? When I form 35 Whelen from OF 270 brass, I use three steps 30-8mm-35 well lubed inside neck, the formed brass is right at 2.5 inches and needs trimmed to shorten and true up the face/ mouth, trim length is 2.484. Your load of 49.0 grs RL 15 sounds REAL light to me? I think all you are seeing are the remains of a factory crimp left on the mouth and nothing to worry about.

[vzerone]

swheeler's way of making 35 Whelen brass from other brass, especially 270, is most excellent and the way I'd do it.

[kfd518]

Hornady #1206549
Hornady #2206550
R-p 270 #1206551
R-P 270 #2206552
Swheeler I'm not sure about the forming of the previous 270 brass it was bought from another member here. The hornady factory 35 however has only a very slight roll crimp with no discernible lip to it like what a lee fcd or quite a bit of Winchester brass do. With the primers Being flat and that ring on the hornady plus 130-170+ fps above factory.... I am scratching my head.
I am attaching pictures of said fired cartridges.

Rp 270 charges as follows 00.) 52.0 gr 2,464 fps, 07.) 49.0 gr 2,347 fps, 06.) 49.5 gr 2,368 fps, 05.) 50.0 gr 2,349 fps, 04.) 50.5 gr 2,410 fps
The neck of 00 is noticably cleaner than the neck of 04 which does help to indicate a possible low pressure round for some reason but it has much higher velocity.
The primers of 00 and 05 are noticably deeper in the pocket but 05 indicates a much lower velocity according to the chronograph.

The load data that Alliant currently publishes for reloader 15 in 35 whelen with hotcor 250 is 54 gr max charge. Downloaded by 10% comes to 48.6 gr charge.

[vzerone]

kfd518, most of your primers looks okay to me, except for them not being flush with the case head. Primers are not a great way to judge pressure. With that said if the primer still has a rounded corner, that's good by me. I want to question you to on some of the primers there seems to be a couple of raises lumps for lack of better description. As though there are pits in the bolt face. What are those from?

[kfd518]

kfd518, most of your primers looks okay to me, except for them not being flush with the case head. Primers are not a great way to judge pressure. With that said if the primer still has a rounded corner, that's good by me. I want to question you to on some of the primers there seems to be a couple of raises lumps for lack of better description. As though there are pits in the bolt face. What are those from?

Exactly as you figured as noted in the photo about 4 and 6 o'clock206556

So you figure that even the hornady primers look alright to you?

[vzerone]

Exactly as you figured as noted in the photo about 4 and 6 o'clock206556

So you figure that even the hornady primers look alright to you?

Well that explains it, thanks for posting that.

[kfd518]

http://saami.org/specifications_and_information/index.cfm

The ring will be from a miss-ground or damaged reamer. Contact the rental company and have them send you a free usage replacement. Normally I have all my reamers custom ground in carbide with oil groove bushing. When I need an a one use reamer I order HSS and use it once and sell on ebay. Not really anymore hassle and normally more cost effective.

I missed this while reading replies yesterday in between calls. This is exactly my fear honestly!

[kfd518]

Alright, a few minutes with no toddlers at my feet and some time to measure and measure some more. Some time to look very closely at the hornady cases, and unfired cartridges without being able to measure that ring it feels that is indeed a crimp remnant by thumbnail gauge. I'm assuming at this point the protruding primers were low pressure charges. Alliant still stands firmly by their word that the new charge weight is plenty hot...... will run a new ladder load up and see how it goes next time at the range. Just trying to figure out why those hornady rounds are running so hot. Velocity doesn't come free and I would like to know where it is coming from! I surely tried to make a tight chamber but dang that's a bit excessive.
This is resized and blacked out to show off once fire hornady 35 whelen brass. 206580

[vzerone]

kfd518 I'm going to give you some reloading data links for that 250 grain bullet using RL 15. Just look and don't try these especially since Alliant told you your load was hot. Again just view and don't try them. According to the data your load is low.

http://loadswap.com/display.php?action=view_load&table=Rifle_Data&bullet_weight=250&cartridge_id=13

http://www.reloadersnest.com/detail.asp?CaliberID=75&BulletWeight=250&LoadID=10151

http://www.reloadammo.com/35whelenload.htm

http://stevespages.com/358_2_250.html

For your information RL-15 burn rate is similar to IMR 4064. Now that's in a close bomb burn rate test. Powders burn differently in different shape cartridges, different calibers, different weight bullets, and different barrels.

[vzerone]

I want to ask you if you know what the bore and groove dimensions are of your barrel? What brand barrel do you have?

[vzerone]

Here's a website for you http://35cal.com/

[kfd518]

kfd518 I'm going to give you some reloading data links for that 250 grain bullet using RL 15. Just look and don't try these especially since Alliant told you your load was hot. Again just view and don't try them. According to the data your load is low.

http://loadswap.com/display.php?action=view_load&table=Rifle_Data&bullet_weight=250&cartridge_id=13

http://www.reloadersnest.com/detail.asp?CaliberID=75&BulletWeight=250&LoadID=10151

http://www.reloadammo.com/35whelenload.htm

http://stevespages.com/358_2_250.html

For your information RL-15 burn rate is similar to IMR 4064. Now that's in a close bomb burn rate test. Powders burn differently in different shape cartridges, different calibers, different weight bullets, and different barrels.

I had seen the 3 loads at reloaders bench and steves pages. Won't let me see load swap info. I hadn't seen the reloadammo info due to it not listing rl15

I originally had my ladder set up from 52.5 gr to 57 gr since most info I had read stated 57-59 gr 2500-2600+ a few. I re did my ladder at 49-54 gr after speaking with Alliant even though their data says only 2300 or so fps with that max load.

I have read many times that any rifle should handle 57 gr in that load but most of those post were before or shortly after Alliant had changed their data. Same as the ages of most of the loads you have listed.
I have thoroughly read his research on .35cal, that page is mostly why I went w the hotcor plus the price. I recall one forum hammering him due to his old notes and he subsequently went in and did some educating. I can't find the link now. If I find it later I will edit this post to add it. It was a very interesting thread though.

I will get dimensions tomorrow I'm heading to bed now. It is a midway green mountain 24" barrel though.

[tomme boy]

That brass looks stretched in the second and 4th pics. See the ring. Are you sure your chamber is straight and not wallowed out on one side? Did you hand ream it?

[swheeler]

I'd say working up from the 52 gr load you fired will be fine, the primers will re-seat when you create enough pressure. I would say that the firing pin blow isn't moving the shoulder back, but instead the force of the primer gases acting against the primer pocket is what causes it, the reason some drill the flasholes larger for low pressure rimless loads. my.02

[kfd518]

That brass looks stretched in the second and 4th pics. See the ring. Are you sure your chamber is straight and not wallowed out on one side? Did you hand ream it?

I did hand ream the chamber and measuring the cases they appear to be .4680-.4685 resized cases at same spot are .4660. It is possible I got some side play I attempted to keep as straight as I could.


I'd say working up from the 52 gr load you fired will be fine, the primers will re-seat when you create enough pressure. I would say that the firing pin blow isn't moving the shoulder back, but instead the force of the primer gases acting against the primer pocket is what causes it, the reason some drill the flasholes larger for low pressure rimless loads. my.02

Thank you kindly for the insight.

[kfd518]

I want to ask you if you know what the bore and groove dimensions are of your barrel? What brand barrel do you have?
Bore and groove .3505, .3590 midway green mountain f34 contour 1-14 twist

[swheeler]

Let us know how you come along with this project please, thanks.

[vzerone]

You look okay on those bore dimension and as we discussed a tad large on the groove. You shouldn't get any pressure problems because of that bore/groove.

[kfd518]

You look okay on those bore dimension and as we discussed a tad large on the groove. You shouldn't get any pressure problems because of that bore/groove.

Hornady rep just said.... sounds like you've got a fast barrel. Guess we will see.


Let us know how you come along with this project please, thanks.
I most certainly plan on it, I am pretty sure what you said about primer gas pressure being the case.

[The Lord Flashheart]

I'm thinking your case mouth is catching at the end of the chamber.

This----^

High pressure is evidenced by the speed the load chronographed at and the neck of the cartridge is coned in as if it had formed against the leade. As the go/no go gauges have no case neck, they wouldn't have picked this up. Perhaps the reamer was of the sort that needs following up with a throating reamer to machine truly custom chambers?

Out of curiosity, what does the neck of a loaded hornady round measure?

[vzerone]

This----^

High pressure is evidenced by the speed the load chronographed at and the neck of the cartridge is coned in as if it had formed against the leade. As the go/no go gauges have no case neck, they wouldn't have picked this up. Perhaps the reamer was of the sort that needs following up with a throating reamer to machine truly custom chambers?

Out of curiosity, what does the neck of a loaded hornady round measure?

If it was catching the end of the chamber, in other words the case is too long, he's have LOTS of pressure because the case mouth wouldn't expand enough to release the bullet and the feel there would be a more obvious ring around the case mouth. But his cases are the right length and he used the headspace gages to measure when he reamed the chamber so it has to be the right length too.

[swheeler]

This----^

High pressure is evidenced by the speed the load chronographed at and the neck of the cartridge is coned in as if it had formed against the leade. As the go/no go gauges have no case neck, they wouldn't have picked this up. Perhaps the reamer was of the sort that needs following up with a throating reamer to machine truly custom chambers?

Out of curiosity, what does the neck of a loaded hornady round measure?

Should be easy enough to tell, size about 1/16th of the neck, insert a flat based bullet backwards(nose inside the neck) and seat it with the bolt then carefully withdraw the dummy from the chamber. Or you can buy a chamber length button from many places including NOE, might have to sacrifice a case though. Anything is possible but remember not too many years ago the starting load from Alliant with 250 grain was 54.0 grs. of RL15. I know, I know new ways of testing chamber pressure, blah-blah-blah, mostly I just think new attorneys!:drinks: AND WE ALL LOVE ATTORNEYS[smilie=l:

[vzerone]

If he flared the case mouth on empty case and chambered easy and slow he could tell if it catches the end of the chamber. Most chamber ends (right in front of where the case mouth set...I know you trim your cases shorter) have an abrupt shoulder. The 6.5 Japs don't as those buggers go right into the throad and then leade in. I sectioned a chamber on a take off barrel and was shocked to see that. Then I examined more 6.5 Japs and they were the same. Don't have to worry about case length LOL

As said his cases are the correct length so I don't think that is it.

I think he needs to bump up his load swheeler, believe you mentioned that too.

[kfd518]

This----^

High pressure is evidenced by the speed the load chronographed at and the neck of the cartridge is coned in as if it had formed against the leade. As the go/no go gauges have no case neck, they wouldn't have picked this up. Perhaps the reamer was of the sort that needs following up with a throating reamer to machine truly custom chambers?

Out of curiosity, what does the neck of a loaded hornady round measure?
I don't have one available at the moment but I did identify a substantial taper crimp on the hornady rounds. When I posted this originally I didn't recall that much crimp. I need to cast the chamber before I go back to load testing. But elk ridge states on their web page that it is a Saami spec. 35 whelen finish reamer.

https://www.reamerrentals.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=35Wh%2Ef

[kfd518]

Should be easy enough to tell, size about 1/16th of the neck, insert a flat based bullet backwards(nose inside the neck) and seat it with the bolt then carefully withdraw the dummy from the chamber. Or you can buy a chamber length button from many places including NOE, might have to sacrifice a case though. Anything is possible but remember not too many years ago the starting load from Alliant with 250 grain was 54.0 grs. of RL15. I know, I know new ways of testing chamber pressure, blah-blah-blah, mostly I just think new attorneys!:drinks: AND WE ALL LOVE ATTORNEYS[smilie=l:
They didn't seem to like it when I questioned a change of ownership at close to the time of the data being changed!

[kfd518]

If he flared the case mouth on empty case and chambered easy and slow he could tell if it catches the end of the chamber. Most chamber ends (right in front of where the case mouth set...I know you trim your cases shorter) have an abrupt shoulder. The 6.5 Japs don't as those buggers go right into the throad and then leade in. I sectioned a chamber on a take off barrel and was shocked to see that. Then I examined more 6.5 Japs and they were the same. Don't have to worry about case length LOL

As said his cases are the correct length so I don't think that is it.

I think he needs to bump up his load swheeler, believe you mentioned that too.


the Saami whelen drawing below shows a tapered chamber end I will tell you by feeling with a long chisel edged matchstick that I can feel this taper. There are no sharp stops in that chamber.
206765
I plan to go back to the 52 gr load as a starting point when I get back to load development.

[vzerone]

the Saami whelen drawing below shows a tapered chamber end I will tell you by feeling with a long chisel edged matchstick that I can feel this taper. There are no sharp stops in that chamber.
206765
I plan to go back to the 52 gr load as a starting point when I get back to load development.

Most, not all, bottleneck cartridge chambers have a tapered neck. That's normal. Military calibers definately do. Don't believe that has anything to do with your problem. You should at least load one or two rounds up with a new bumped up load and test them first before going to the trouble to do a chamber cast. If you use Cerosafe you have to mic it within a certain time period. A pound cast you don't.

[runfiverun]

48.5 grs of RL-19 and a 250gr bullet gives me about the same velocity [2325 or so] as your getting.
only I'm using a 358 win and a cast bullet.

the reason I mention the case mouth catching is I am thinking your driving the round forward with the firing pin.
it's basically stopping about when the ejector grabs it,,,, but... that's also when it's hitting the end of the chamber.

[kfd518]

This----^

High pressure is evidenced by the speed the load chronographed at and the neck of the cartridge is coned in as if it had formed against the leade. As the go/no go gauges have no case neck, they wouldn't have picked this up. Perhaps the reamer was of the sort that needs following up with a throating reamer to machine truly custom chambers?

Out of curiosity, what does the neck of a loaded hornady round measure?

.3760

In doing more research and measuring the hornady brass head to shoulder length fired vs unfired is the same length within .0005
Neck length grows approx .0040 but is still within max length @ 2.4935

Those re formed that were sized in full length lee sizer have not had the shoulder touched at all. This as well as being freshly anealed I believe may be allowing the forward movement either from primer pressure or firing pin strike. The formed cases before firing are 1.9775 to the shoulder. The fired are 1.9660 to the shoulder

Bushing size used to measure is .420

[kfd518]

Most, not all, bottleneck cartridge chambers have a tapered neck. That's normal. Military calibers definately do. Don't believe that has anything to do with your problem. You should at least load one or two rounds up with a new bumped up load and test them first before going to the trouble to do a chamber cast. If you use Cerosafe you have to mic it within a certain time period. A pound cast you don't.

My reference wasn't to the neck itself but the end of the chambe showing a 30* angle instead of a 90* at the end of the chamber.

Belled case mouth brass a.390 trimmed to 2.494 gives no sign of increased resistance closing the bolt.

[vzerone]

There's nothing wrong with that 30 degree angle. Eventually a 90 degree angle is going to get rounded from powder erosion.
Do you think that maybe your firing pin spring is a little too strong? Most military rifles have strong firing pin springs. I believe you said your action is a Mauser...military Mauser?

[swheeler]

Measure the 00 52.0 gr case for shoulder position after firing, is it set back .011" like the rest, the picture of it looks like a flush seated primer after firing? What about the Hornady ammo, shoulder would be farther forward I'd guess after firing(since the ammo will be sized to min spec to fit all chambers). If you have a die with .375 expander run 5 cases through it to create a false shoulder, size just enough in your 35 Whelen dies to get the bolt to close with a slight interference fit, load at 49-50-51-52-53, fire and measure location of shoulder again, 53 stayed where it should be?
I believe the 98 mauser was supposed to have an 18-19 pound mainspring, All mine are 22# Wolfe(including the Whelen) except one 308 that has a 30# and you can tell it when you lift the handle to cock.

[swheeler]

48.5 grs of RL-19 and a 250gr bullet gives me about the same velocity [2325 or so] as your getting.
only I'm using a 358 win and a cast bullet.

the reason I mention the case mouth catching is I am thinking your driving the round forward with the firing pin.
it's basically stopping about when the ejector grabs it,,,, but... that's also when it's hitting the end of the chamber.
The ejector doesn't grab anything, it pushes on the case head the last 1/16" of bolt travel to the rear.

[swheeler]

I don't remember if it has been mentioned above but use you calipers as a depth gauge and measure pin protrusion, .060" should be fine.

[kfd518]

Measure the 00 52.0 gr case for shoulder position after firing, is it set back .011" like the rest, the picture of it looks like a flush seated primer after firing? What about the Hornady ammo, shoulder would be farther forward I'd guess after firing(since the ammo will be sized to min spec to fit all chambers). If you have a die with .375 expander run 5 cases through it to create a false shoulder, size just enough in your 35 Whelen dies to get the bolt to close with a slight interference fit, load at 49-50-51-52-53, fire and measure location of shoulder again, 53 stayed where it should be?
I believe the 98 mauser was supposed to have an 18-19 pound mainspring, All mine are 22# Wolfe(including the Whelen) except one 308 that has a 30# and you can tell it when you lift the handle to cock.

Well I reloaded at 52 gr and at the request of another lightly oiled the cartridge before firing. Results were a case of my previous lot after firing shoulder to head length of 1.9815. No pinch mark at case mouth. Primer is still seated. .0025 increase over the hornady length.

I have not fiddled with the spring at all but it does appear in pretty good shape for an 87 year old spring.....

Don't recall what I measure pin protrusion at but it was good.

[swheeler]

.3760

In doing more research and measuring the hornady brass head to shoulder length fired vs unfired is the same length within .0005
Neck length grows approx .0040 but is still within max length @ 2.4935

Those re formed that were sized in full length lee sizer have not had the shoulder touched at all. This as well as being freshly anealed I believe may be allowing the forward movement either from primer pressure or firing pin strike. The formed cases before firing are 1.9775 to the shoulder. The fired are 1.9660 to the shoulder

Bushing size used to measure is .420

Sorry missed that on the Hornady fired brass. So here's the way to find the problem...........
1-Resize the Hornady OF brass-MAKING SURE TO NOT TOUCH THE SHOULDER-if you do touch it call .001 good
2-load as you did before with 49.0 gr RL15-fire
3-If the shoulder is shoved back you know it is a light load, if the shoulder is in original position you know to dump the reformed 270 brass. :drinks:

The explosive force of the primer acting against the bottom of the pocket is always trying to shove the brass forward, smaller the shoulder to stop it more it moves it(35 Whelen) unless the cartridge develops enough pressure to push the brass back reseating the primer.

[kfd518]

Sorry missed that on the Hornady fired brass. So here's the way to find the problem...........
1-Resize the Hornady OF brass-MAKING SURE TO NOT TOUCH THE SHOULDER-if you do touch it call .001 good
2-load as you did before with 49.0 gr RL15-fire
3-If the shoulder is shoved back you know it is a light load, if the shoulder is in original position you know to dump the reformed 270 brass. :drinks:

The explosive force of the primer acting against the bottom of the pocket is always trying to shove the brass forward, smaller the shoulder to stop it more it moves it(35 Whelen) unless the cartridge develops enough pressure to push the brass back reseating the primer.

I believe I created a bit of confusion those cartridges that I had resized were all the rp 270 brass and those are the ones that didn't have the shoulder touched.
POST#55 was also rp 270

[swheeler]

Well I reloaded at 52 gr and at the request of another lightly oiled the cartridge before firing. Results were a case of my previous lot after firing shoulder to head length of 1.9815. No pinch mark at case mouth. Primer is still seated. .0025 increase over the hornady length.

I have not fiddled with the spring at all but it does appear in pretty good shape for an 87 year old spring.....

Don't recall what I measure pin protrusion at but it was good.

Sounds like you got it, go to 53. and ditch the oil, too light a load.

[vzerone]

Sounds like you got it, go to 53. and ditch the oil, too light a load.

The lightly oiled light charge was by request of me. I felt he was initially loading a light charge and the firing pin was driving the case forward and it obturated in that forward position and backed the primer out. Lightly oiled prevented the case from obturating and expand to fill the chamber, a method that many use in fireforming cases with a filler, not a bullet. We both are very aware of cases are to be oil free along with the chamber upon firing them.

You know that runfiverun meant the extractor claw not the ejector. :drinks:

[kfd518]

Gentlemen thank you for all your assistance, now to get the rest of these formed up. Will keep everyone up to date on the final conclusions after formed and performance level determined.
From my conversation with hornady they did not seem to worried about the extra velocity and they have to be aware that this stuff is being used it over the hill actions. The rep did say they actually figure on getting I believe 85 fps faster than what they label as. Kind of curious to see what it's leverevolution clocks in my 30-30.

[swheeler]

Enjoy the Whelen, it's a good cartridge!

[vzerone]

Gentlemen thank you for all your assistance, now to get the rest of these formed up. Will keep everyone up to date on the final conclusions after formed and performance level determined.
From my conversation with hornady they did not seem to worried about the extra velocity and they have to be aware that this stuff is being used it over the hill actions. The rep did say they actually figure on getting I believe 85 fps faster than what they label as. Kind of curious to see what it's leverevolution clocks in my 30-30.

That leverevolution really works. Larry Gibson did a big test on it one that I remember. You could search for here.

[runfiverun]

did I really write ejector?
slap.. eh I ain't fixin it.

[vzerone]

did I really write ejector?
slap.. eh I ain't fixin it.

Now had it been a more modern push feed you'd been right runfiverun :drinks:

[swheeler]

Lamar the Devil made me do it!:drinks: I had a really good idea what you meant, sorry man.:kidding:

[runfiverun]

was probably half thinking about the Bergara rifle I been talking Waco into buying for a couple of days now.
he finally bought it, so we should be seeing some pretty small group pictures from him shortly.

[kfd518]

That brass looks stretched in the second and 4th pics. See the ring. Are you sure your chamber is straight and not wallowed out on one side? Did you hand ream it?
I know this is response #2 to this post but in investigating this further, I've determined that swollen spot is where the claw extractor pushes the round against the chamber. I've measure this spot over and over on several cases and it comes up to .4680 all the way around multiple cases. Now this being bulged out where it is I'm able to locate where it is in relationship to the extractor due to the little divots my bolt face leaves in the primer. But the measurement tells me the chamber is round within .0005"

[vzerone]

I know this is response #2 to this post but in investigating this further, I've determined that swollen spot is where the claw extractor pushes the round against the chamber. I've measure this spot over and over on several cases and it comes up to .4680 all the way around multiple cases. Now this being bulged out where it is I'm able to locate where it is in relationship to the extractor due to the little divots my bolt face leaves in the primer. But the measurement tells me the chamber is round within .0005"

I thought it was an optical illusion more or less.

[kfd518]

Well one side is a smooth line head to shoulder extractor side is bulged out from being pushed over by the extractor against the chamber wall. But the measurement is concentric

[vzerone]

Well there goes out the window for controled feed lovers over the push feed with their ejector pushing the cartridge to one side in the chamber and not helping in accuracy. Appears the Mauser claw might do that too!!!

[kfd518]

Well yeah when you rotate the bolt to close it the opening in the face rotates to the left side of the receiver. Only way to have something dead center in the chamber is a falling block with an extractor that rises up when the block falls. Even then unless perfectly reamed chamber has perfectly formed brass it's not going to sit dead straight. Whoever said a controlled feed doesn't push a round against the left even slightly only has semi controlled feed. The extractor should move about .004" out when a cartridge is fed under it . The only way around it is a deeper extractor groove in the brass and then once again its only semi controlled. If you stop the bolt it will fall out on extraction if it does not have enough tension.

[vzerone]

Well yeah when you rotate the bolt to close it the opening in the face rotates to the left side of the receiver. Only way to have something dead center in the chamber is a falling block with an extractor that rises up when the block falls. Even then unless perfectly reamed chamber has perfectly formed brass it's not going to sit dead straight. Whoever said a controlled feed doesn't push a round against the left even slightly only has semi controlled feed. The extractor should move about .004" out when a cartridge is fed under it . The only way around it is a deeper extractor groove in the brass and then once again its only semi controlled. If you stop the bolt it will fall out on extraction if it does not have enough tension.

Or neck size only!!!

[kfd518]

Neck size only won't help this situation, you can't control the body orientation of the brass when it loads in the chamber unless loading one at a time. Neck can only support it so much.... the bulge is still on one side of the cartridge but even all the way around. Hopefully I'm making sense.

[vzerone]

Neck size only won't help this situation, you can't control the body orientation of the brass when it loads in the chamber unless loading one at a time. Neck can only support it so much.... the bulge is still on one side of the cartridge but even all the way around. Hopefully I'm making sense.

When you're talking of the bulge do you mean the case expansion near the web? Here's what a bulge is to me, it's protusion at some point not uniform with the rest of the case expansion. Case is not even all around.

[tomme boy]

Most every Ruger and Mauser does this. I was always under the assumption that it was from a oversized chamber and the extractor pushing on the case head seemed to always show this.

I put together a few mausers that showed this issue. I set the chamber back and it went away. I have picked up thousands of pieces of brass at our local range. And I could always tell what the gun was when I seen brass like this and it was always a Ruger or a mauser. And another thing I noticed was that Win brass seemed to do this more than other types. The base of the brass in front of the extractor groove was always a little smaller than other makers. Next it was Federal.

With that smaller brass and a loose chamber this is what happens

[runfiverun]

that might be why some Guy's under cut their claw type extractors.

[tomme boy]

Could be. But I think it is more of a brass manufacturer issue too. US manufacturers use a too small case head on some of the European cases. They were using the US based head of .470'' instead of whatever 6.5 Swede called for. And 303 Brit is WAY too small compared to MIL brass.

Measure some case heads right above the extractor grove and see what you get. I bet it will be around 0.460". I have not measured any in a few years so please let me know what you find.

[vzerone]

Could be. But I think it is more of a brass manufacturer issue too. US manufacturers use a too small case head on some of the European cases. They were using the US based head of .470'' instead of whatever 6.5 Swede called for. And 303 Brit is WAY too small compared to MIL brass.

Measure some case heads right above the extractor grove and see what you get. I bet it will be around 0.460". I have not measured any in a few years so please let me know what you find.

That's why when you have an undersize case such as you mention the first time you fire them you wrap a 1/8th inch wide strip of Scotch Tape around the head right in front of the extractor groove. You make the strip of tape long enough to insure a snug fit in the chamber. These must be finger seated and it's a beat, but it lets the case sweel evenly all the ways around.

[kfd518]

Could be. But I think it is more of a brass manufacturer issue too. US manufacturers use a too small case head on some of the European cases. They were using the US based head of .470'' instead of whatever 6.5 Swede called for. And 303 Brit is WAY too small compared to MIL brass.

Measure some case heads right above the extractor grove and see what you get. I bet it will be around 0.460". I have not measured any in a few years so please let me know what you find.
I agree 100% all diameter dimensions are smaller than what I would like to see but that is most likely due to lawyers wanting things to be just so, for liability problems these days. Most cartridges nor are made in the bottom half of the allowances. Combination of lawyers wanting things their way and the pockets to be filled not wanting to loose a penny due to a cartridge not "fitting" a chamber that was teamed with a reamer that should have been reground or replaced long before it was. Loads and load data have decreased by leaps and bounds for most cartridges for what I feel is the same reason.

[kfd518]

Well I switched powders on my load I went with power pro 2000 mr starting load of 60 gr and worked up to 63 gr at 2625 fps with SD of 12.5 fps. This was only a 3 shot group. I will load more of this load and see if the SD holds. Making progress now.

[vzerone]

Well I switched powders on my load I went with power pro 2000 mr starting load of 60 gr and worked up to 63 gr at 2625 fps with SD of 12.5 fps. This was only a 3 shot group. I will load more of this load and see if the SD holds. Making progress now.

What you are looking for is single digit SD'S.

[swheeler]

Well I switched powders on my load I went with power pro 2000 mr starting load of 60 gr and worked up to 63 gr at 2625 fps with SD of 12.5 fps. This was only a 3 shot group. I will load more of this load and see if the SD holds. Making progress now.

That should work on everything the lower 48 has to offer, actually Alaska too. That powder has to be in H380 or even closer to H414-W760 speed with those load densities, excellent velocity BTW. I would worry about actual accuracy on multiple targets before I looked at SD#. .02

[vzerone]

So you're telling us that ES's and SD's should be eliminated from ballistics because all that matters is the accuracy huh Mr Wheeler?

[swheeler]

That should work on everything the lower 48 has to offer, actually Alaska too. That powder has to be in H380 or even closer to H414-W760 speed with those load densities, excellent velocity BTW. I would worry about actual accuracy on multiple targets before I looked at SD#. .02

Never said that

[kfd518]

In most hunting situations many loads have been developed that are accurate to 3-400 yds with horrible sd, es figures but are quite accurate. Not that these two figures don't matter but matter much less at "normal" hunting ranges and accuracy. These two figures help to determine possible accuracy of a load if I remember correctly? May not truely show the capability of it though. Especially if not in a velocity window the rifle likes?

[kfd518]

Alliant claims it is slower than rl15. Max on that load says it pushes around 2700....
accuracy verification as well as temp sensitivity will be next

[vzerone]

They also tell you how efficiently of how your powder is burning.

[swheeler]

In most hunting situations many loads have been developed that are accurate to 3-400 yds with horrible sd, es figures but are quite accurate. Not that these two figures don't matter but matter much less at "normal" hunting ranges and accuracy. These two figures help to determine possible accuracy of a load if I remember correctly? May not truely show the capability of it though. Especially if not in a velocity window the rifle likes?

Very good summation. If you are like me most of your game will be taken under 300 yds and at those ranges your Whelen will be an excellent performer.

[kfd518]

They also tell you how efficiently of how your powder is burning.
Please educate me on determining the efficiency with these two numbers. What would be acceptable vs unacceptable? I know the aim is single digit but how do I determine efficiency with them?

[kfd518]

Very good summation. If you are like me most of your game will be taken under 300 yds and at those ranges your Whelen will be an excellent performer.
34 yds w 308 yesterday morning......that is the second shortest shot so far for me.

[vzerone]

Please educate me on determining the efficiency with these two numbers. What would be acceptable vs unacceptable? I know the aim is single digit but how do I determine efficiency with them?

You pretty much hit your own nail on the head. Yes the goal is single digits and lower single digits. When you get those low single digits you will often see duplicate readings on your chrono. But, there is more then how the powder is burning. Neck tension and crimps play a lot with it. So does internal case capacity as does bore fouling and temperature. If everything is the same on those things mentioned then each bullet should be doing near the same velocity.

I've agrued the fact a lot when you're looking at a data chart of loads and accuracy that you often see the most accurate load had the lousy ES and SD figures. Then on the other hand you see some extremely accurate groups with very low ES and SD figures.

In messing with surplus powders with booster loads that in the beginning you'll find unburned powder in both the bore and inside the case. The ES and SD figures will show high for those. So you keep adjusting the main charge and booster charge (and crimp) and when you you start to see lower figures you'll see less and less powder in the bore and case. Eventually you will have a clean bore and case and the figures will be low. Generally with cast bullets the accuracy does improve.

[vzerone]

This is a good explanation.

http://precisionrifleblog.com/2015/04/18/how-much-does-sd-matter/

[swheeler]

34 yds w 308 yesterday morning......that is the second shortest shot so far for me.

That means you are a good hunter or very lucky, me I'll take luck any day! LOL Your going to love putting the "smack down" on them with the Whelen!

[kfd518]

That means you are a good hunter or very lucky, me I'll take luck any day! LOL Your going to love putting the "smack down" on them with the Whelen!
I was highly blessed yesterday. That 180 gr flopped it over in the dirt at that range I can't imagine what the whelen would have done to it. Sitting on the ground in a fence corner 2 min before sunrise. Legal hrs here are 30 min before and after. No other cover just a cedar tree to my right. He saw me raise the rifle or my scent finally hit his nose and stopped long enough to get the shot. That was the hardest I have watched one go down. But enough about that.

[vzerone]

The Whelen will kind of be like the 45-70 getting hit with a plank! Another cartidge in just about the same league as the Whelen is the 358 Winchester. Both it and the Whelen are great cast calibers. After you get settled out with the Whelen you'll have to buy a mold for it and start shooting cast. I'm sure you'll be surprised.

[M-Tecs]

Please educate me on determining the efficiency with these two numbers. What would be acceptable vs unacceptable? I know the aim is single digit but how do I determine efficiency with them?

There is no direct correlation. Low SD and ES don't become a factor until the yardage gets long for that cartridge and target size small.

A simple example is 308 in match rifles. At 200 &300 yards group size is my primary concern since poor SD and ES have very little effect on holding elevation or wind. Even at 600 the affects of poor SD and ES are limited. Moving back to a 1,000 yards poor SD and ES will cost you points.

With high velocity jacketed bullets unless the numbers are really bad I don't worry about them for 300 yards and under.

[swheeler]

There is no direct correlation. Low SD and ES don't become a factor until the yardage gets long for that cartridge and target size small.

A simple example is 308 in match rifles. At 200 &300 yards group size is my primary concern since poor SD and ES have very little effect on holding elevation or wind. Even at 600 the affects of poor SD and ES are limited. Moving back to a 1,000 yards poor SD and ES will cost you points.

With high velocity jacketed bullets unless the numbers are really bad I don't worry about them for 300 yards and under.

Exactly right! All this internet hoopala of single digit ES and single digit SD are being regurgitated by internet experts that very seldom shoot or post targets, and when they do post targets they are cropped, and we all know about that.[smilie=l:

[vzerone]

M-Tecs You're pretty close there about what you said. Bryan Litz said that at those further distances most of the misses are from wind rather then vertical dispersion. He said that the percent of improvement between high ES's and SD'S and very low ones are a very small percentage. None the less there are no ballisticians that will tell you that low ES's and SD's don't matter.

[M-Tecs]

vzerone. We will have to disagree on that. I have shot with Bryan and a couple of other ballisticians. None of them will pick a load with low ES's and SD's that does not group well over a load that groups well with relatively poor ES and SD numbers. As the yardage increases lower ES's and SD's do become more important since it is required to hold elevation. Until you get to longer ranges than most people shoot low ES and SD simply don't correlate to small groups.

[vzerone]

vzerone. We will have to disagree on that. I have shoot with Bryan and a couple of other ballisticians. None of them will pick a load with low ES's and SD's that does not group well over a load that groups well with relatively poor ES and SD numbers. As the yardage increases lower ES's and SD's do become more important since it is required to hold elevation. Until you get to longer ranges than most people shoot low ES and SD simply don't correlate to small groups.

That's fine M-Tecs and you said so politely. I appreciate that. Now read that link I put up in post #92 Bryan Litz is partly responsible for input to that. Near the bottom you'll see where he himself said what I posted in post #98. I'm going to hang with him. I respect his knowledge a lot.

[runfiverun]

you guys both/all know that wide swings are bad.
the not mentioned thing here is it can generally be fixed by a few details.
quite often the problem is the powder ignition is inconsistent.
not where the bullet comes out the barrel in a node.

[M-Tecs]

That's fine M-Tecs and you said so politely. I appreciate that. Now read that link I put up in post #92 Bryan Litz is partly responsible for input to that. Near the bottom you'll see where he himself said what I posted in post #98. I'm going to hang with him. I respect his knowledge a lot.

It's not a matter of who respects who. It's a matter of properly understanding what the variables do.

NRA match rifles tend to have 28+" barrels so the velocity used below is normal for them.

Using a 308 using Serria 175 lets look at the numbers for 2,750 fps verse 2,800 fps out to a 1,000 yards. At a 1,000 yards total wind drift for a 10 mph full value wind is 91.3 inches

At 300 yards the 50 fps difference is 0.8683" in drop or about .289 MOA
wind drift is 0.1648" difference or .054"MOA

At 500 yards the 50 fps difference is 2.739" in drop or about .547 MOA
wind drift is 0.5059"difference or 0.101 MOA

At 600 yards the 50 fps difference is 4.2224" in drop or about .703 MOA
wind drift is 0.7636" difference or .127" MOA

At 1,000 yards the 50 fps difference is 15.7287" in drop or about 1.57 MOA.
wind drift is 2.4091 difference or .24"MOA

I have loads with single digit numbers that will not hold 1 1/2 MOA group at 300 yards. I have other loads that the numbers are not very good that will hold 1/2 MOA at 300 yards.

Which load should I be using at the 200 and 300 yard line????????

Unless the ES is very large it's not a factor for most people shooting under 300 yard with a 308 class rifle.

The link you posted was written by Cal Zant and not Bryan Litz. He does quote Bryan Litz but Cal Zant WES pics are flat wrong. It appears they are showing total wind effect not the effects of something like a 50 ES will give you for drift at a 1,000 yards.

[vzerone]

It's not a matter of who respects who. It's a matter of properly understanding what the variables do.

NRA match rifles tend to have 28+" barrels so the velocity used below is normal for them.

Using a 308 using Serria 175 lets look at the numbers for 2,750 fps verse 2,800 fps out to a 1,000 yards. At a 1,000 yards total wind drift for a 10 mph full value wind is 91.3 inches

At 300 yards the 50 fps difference is 0.8683" in drop or about .289 MOA

At 500 yards the 50 fps difference is 2.739" in drop or about .547 MOA

At 600 yards the 50 fps difference is 4.2224" in drop or about .703 MOA

At 1,000 yards the 50 fps difference is 15.7287" in drop or about 1.57 MOA.

I have loads with single digit numbers that will not hold 1 1/2 MOA group at 300 yards. I have other loads that the numbers are not very good that will hold 1/2 MOA at 300 yards.

Which load should I be using at the 200 and 300 yard line????????

At those distances, for that load, the vertical dispersion isn't showing up as much as it would at much longer distances. How doe that load shoot at 600 yards? at 1000 yards? As compared to the low ES's and SD's.

We both know that velocity differences are what cause vertical dispersion. Someone once told me that you can't really tell what your load is doing until you shoot it at distance and observe what it's doing. Believe it or not that person said for him the minimum distance is 300 yards. Exactly what you are shooting that load of yours.

It's physics M-Tecs, less velocity variation is going to equal smaller groups. You can't get around that.

I see you made an edit so I'll do likewise. What you added is something I was more or less saying in other posts. That there isn't much of an improvement in group size, but it is really there, that's going to make a big difference unless said person is cutting hairs. The shooter and other negative influences are going to make the group larger rather then the velocity dispersion.

[swheeler]

M-Tecs, myself and Creighton Audette all agree, that's good enough for me![smilie=l: Come on guys think about it, you know the ladder test, hum could one get any larger extreme spreads:drinks:

[kfd518]

Gentlemen,
I believe the important part in this conversation is the range at which THIS particular load will be fired. 300-400 yds is about the tops I trust to shoot an open sight rifle accurately enough to humanely take an animal. This may change over time but the fact is the chosen cartridge is for the most part done past 450 yds, it has already dropped 5 feet by this time with a 100 yd zero which I likely change to 200. But it is also getting a bit slow by this point for reliable expansion. This has gotten way off track. Partly by my asking further information on what was posted. It has frankly gotten to a pissing match that has been argued many times over. I appreciate the input and agree that both sides have their merit and both sides can back up the accuracy of the loads they have worked for the purposes they were worked for. Theoretically lowered ES AND SD does mean a tighter group but many targets at shorter ranges show very well that in short and mid ranges it simply is not as much of a factor as are shooting form, control and plain practice with the rifle being shot at the time.

[vzerone]

Gentlemen,
I believe the important part in this conversation is the range at which THIS particular load will be fired. 300-400 yds is about the tops I trust to shoot an open sight rifle accurately enough to humanely take an animal. This may change over time but the fact is the chosen cartridge is for the most part done past 450 yds, it has already dropped 5 feet by this time with a 100 yd zero which I likely change to 200. But it is also getting a bit slow by this point for reliable expansion. This has gotten way off track. Partly by my asking further information on what was posted. It has frankly gotten to a pissing match that has been argued many times over. I appreciate the input and agree that both sides have their merit and both sides can back up the accuracy of the loads they have worked for the purposes they were worked for. Theoretically lowered ES AND SD does mean a tighter group but many targets at shorter ranges show very well that in short and mid ranges it simply is not as much of a factor as are shooting form, control and plain practice with the rifle being shot at the time.

Yeah you're right and I apologise for my part in it. I'd be mighty proud of you if you plugged a deer at those distances you mentions and I'm hoping you do. Will watch in the future for you to shoot cast from it.

[kfd518]

I will most certainly keep folks up to date but this guns intended purpose is a ways off for this young man.

[M-Tecs]

No pissing match here. The numbers are the numbers. Easy enough for anyone to run on any of the free ballistic calculators to see what effect there ES and SD do for their situation.

Assuming very low ES and SD will produce the tights groups is a mistake. If that were the case we wouldn't need to shoot groups we could just shoot over a chrono. The vibration nod of when the bullet exists the rifle barrel is one of the more significant factors that we have control over. I have never kept track of the % but a surprising high numbers of loads with very low SD and ES don't group that well.

At longer range good ES and SD become a necessity to hold elevation but again they have to group well in addition to having good ES and SD.

[swheeler]

No pissing match here either. I always look for accuracy FIRST in any load, cast loads in the 35 Whelen are 300 yard max for me, and that would be stretching it. I was just giving a suggestion to look for accuracy first, the other banter was someone trying to put words in my mouth that were never spoken. .02:killingpc

[kfd518]

No pissing match here either. I always look for accuracy FIRST in any load, cast loads in the 35 Whelen are 300 yard max for me, and that would be stretching it. I was just giving a suggestion to look for accuracy first, the other banter was someone trying to put words in my mouth that were never spoken. .02:killingpc

I got to big for my britches playing with the chronograph. Was playing speed game instead of just shooting for groups...

[kfd518]

No pissing match here either. I always look for accuracy FIRST in any load, cast loads in the 35 Whelen are 300 yard max for me, and that would be stretching it. I was just giving a suggestion to look for accuracy first, the other banter was someone trying to put words in my mouth that were never spoken. .02:killingpc

I got to big for my britches playing with the chronograph. Was playing speed game instead of just shooting for groups...

[tomme boy]

I shot a 11fps ES on WOLF steel ammo for 20 shots. It grouped 4.5" at 100 yds. No thanks

[Larry Gibson]

I shot a 11fps ES on WOLF steel ammo for 20 shots. It grouped 4.5" at 100 yds. No thanks

That is the crux of the matter. We can have poor quality bullets or bullets unsuited to the barrel twist with excellent ES and SDs yet give poor accuracy. Conversely we can have good or excellent bullet and "high" ES and SDs that give excellent accuracy at short range. What we don't see is the best accuracy, especially at longer ranges with good/excellent bullet in good/excellent barrels with high ES and SDs.

Using the info in M-Tec's post #102 a 1.5 moa additional drop at 1000 yards will drop you out of the 10 ring into the 9 ring on the NRA HP target. The 10 ring is 2 moa and the X ring is 1 moa. Given 1000 yard matches (Palma or NRA) are won or lost by X count these days I doubt you'll find any serious competitors using any loads with high ES or SDs because they shot well at close range or in a "ladder" test.

In context with the OPs 35 Whelen with a 300 yard max range if his ES is in the 50 to 70 fps range and the SD is in the 15 to 20 fps range given 10 shot test strings that holds accuracy out to 300 yards, he has a pretty darn good load. Of course 5 or 3 shot tests will almost always have lower ES and SDs.

[vzerone]

Larry, I think that was a dang good post! I see that you really do understand ES and SD. You even explain it in a number of different ways by juggling the bullets around. You said better what I was trying to say.

[plainsman456]

All i got to say is just go shoot that thing and work for the best groups you can get.

Mine is good for 300 yards with the 200 grain bullet as well as the 250 grain.

If i remember right the sd's and ad's were in double digits and at 200 yards shot in the 3/4 range.

I have used rL-15 before but settled on IMR-3031 and it has not let me down.
The first deer was shot at a measured 125 yards and it appeared that the deer had wheeled and run off.
It was found facing the other way and on it's belly.
The Whelen is a fine large critter getter and with some of the lighter pistol bullets can be a fun coyote rifle combo.

[KenT7021]

Back in the 80's I had problems with two rifles I had barreled.One was a .35 Whelen,the other was .280 Remington.They appeared to have excessive headspace.The headspace was held to a minimum on both rifles.They had one other thing in common.The ammo used for testing was handloaded with factory new Remington cases.The new cases were defective.The headspace of the cases was short.I believe that the Whelen cases had a recall on them some time later.