Low velocity round ball

[megasupermagnum]

I've been busy punishing myself with these 770 grain slugs, and hopefully I can have some real numbers up later on the results.

This week I have a special project, a bit of a contradictory. I want to load a full bore round ball (about 1 3/8 oz), but keep recoil down. As low velocity as possible is good, 800-1000 fps is the goal. No load data exists for low recoil 1 3/8 oz loads, for good reason. I'm considering using a faster powder, like universal, but I'm hoping to get away with a reduced load of either hs-6 or 800x. I'm leaning to hs-6, which seems to have limited 1 3/8 oz data, and hopefully will still have adequate pressure to reduce to the levels I want. Has anyone else tried to download to subsonic levels like this?

[Mr_Sheesh]

It'd help to know in what cartridge / if it's BP or whatever but I'd bet it's been done; That's a big lead round ball, 1-3/8 oz is about 600 grains so over 0.690" (which'd be 480 grains or so)

[megasupermagnum]

It is 12 gauge, smokeless only. The reason is that a standard load is uncontrollable in the gun I'm loading this for. I could go to a smaller slug, but I'd rather run low velocity with a full bore diameter slug. The gun is an H&R tracker (rifled barrel, slug gun single shot), which weighs about 5.25 pounds. The balls are .735", and run around 580 ish grains, but I just call it 1 3/8 oz.

[JonB1]

HI,

Just a thought, I've been experimenting with full-bore (or near full-bore) balls using small steel ball bearings and also glass beads as "fillers". The balls stay the same size but weigh a fair bit less, making them suitable for lighter loads. The balance of the ball does change as the fillers tend to float when they're cast.

[Finster101]

Try this thread, http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?337564-12-Gauge-Subsonic-Loads .

[725]

Just a little related info for you to consider: I load for my H&R ultra (10ga. frame with a heavy, rifled, cylinder barrel). Had Jeff Tanner cut a single cavity mold for a .702 round ball. With that 511 grain pure lead ball, I use 33 grains of Blue Dot in a CH123 hull. I load a Claybuster 12S3 wad with a 1/4" 20 ga. cork wad under the ball. I have to trim the unused hull to 2.775, push the load down onto the powder and then use a fold crimp. This assembly won't drop into your (my) chamber. I have to thumb them in to close the action. If I were to do it again, I'd probably ask for a .700 mold. Any load attempt greater than 33 grains of Blue Dot damaged the wad. For my shotgun, 33 grains was just right. Again, this is in a cylinder bore. I'd never use anything but the cylinder bore with this load.

Shot a few this weekend to zero the gun for the season and had about a 3" group at 100 yards. Good enough for my purposes. Couple of deer last year fell to one shot, DRT. Recoil is very manageable even throwing such a heavy ball. Have not chrony'd the load.

[megasupermagnum]

This is not for my ultra slug hunter. I'm shooting those giant 770 grain slugs in that. The Tracker only weighs 5.25 pounds, even a target load kicks good in it. All I want to do is shoot a 580 grain slug 800-1000 fps. It looks to me that HS-6 would be a blooper before I get below 1000 fps. Looking now, the Hodgdon website lists a 1 1/4 oz load with the exact components I want to use, and uses Universal powder. 23.3 grains at 10,400 psi and 1,220 fps. I'm thinking i should be able to down load this to 1000 fps.

[longbow]

Easiest answer is likely BP or a sub though they would be dirty. Those would be easy to get the velocity you want without worrying about bloopers. BP cartridge loading data could be used as a basis.

Second best (I think) is Unique. Ross Seyfried loaded 21.5 grs. of Unique under his 740 gr. Paradox slugs in his bore gun and achieved velocities of around 1000/1100 FPS. I'd have to look up the article to be sure but pretty low velocities. Unique seems to be very tolerant in light loading even with heavy projectiles. Not sure but I think the faster powders might be trickier to load for especially if there is little to no load data... unless you have pressure testing equipment. And slow powders present the risk of bloopers if pressure gets too low.

I'll take a look and see if I have any data for low velocity heavy payloads. I did look up some subsonic info but I don't recall a payload as heavy as 1 3/8 oz.

If I find anything useful I post it.

Longbow

[megasupermagnum]

Thanks for that, I've heard about using unique before. I have no pressure equipment. I have a feeling I could safely get 800 fps with something fast like 700x, but I'm not going to risk it. I feel good about unique.

[longbow]

There's lots of Unique load data for 1 oz to 1 1/8 oz slugs and mid range shot loads but you don't tend to see it listed for anything 1 1/4 oz. or heavier except for some of the old Paradox load info.

Like I said Ross Seyfried used it under his heavy Paradox slugs and I believe I have a load or two listed for bore guns using Unique as well.

There are Likely other powders as good but I am familiar with Unique and trust it. I've used it for light to heavy loads in .44 mag (though the "heavy" loads aren't in the same category as the slower powders), light loads in .303 under 200 gr. boolits, birdshot and slug loads in 12 ga. (though nothing as heavy as 1 3/8 oz). I downloaded 1 1/8 oz. birdshot loads using Unique so my 10 year old son could shoot a 12 ga. for grouse hunting and no problems. I didn't chronograph but they were pretty light loads with no issues and good patterns.

I'll see if I can find that Ross Seyfried article which I have as a hard copy and I have to reload my back up files on the PC as I am sure I have a similar listing from another source for heavy bore gun boolits/balls.

Longbow

[megasupermagnum]

I managed to dig this thread up, but those pressures seem way too low for what those are. Especially the bluedot. I just shot 34 grains of Bluedot behind those 770 slug (which weigh 786 grains with 20:1 alloy), and they are certainly not 6000 psi. I forgot my chronograph last time, but they are stout. Funny how they list Clays. Maybe 700x wouldn't be a bad choice after all? Tomorrow I'll hopefully be picking up some Unique, and loading. I'll probably start at 16 grains and go up a grain at a time. I'm using Federal 209A primers, and with a very deep fold crimp I will hopefully avoid a blooper, but not a big deal in a single shot. I'm thinking 18-20 grains will be the sweet spot. During searching it does seem Unique is rather tolerant of low pressures.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/archive/index.php/t-184815.html

[longbow]

Hah! I believe the info that Carl posted is the info I was referring to and I read it here! I am pretty sure I copied the same or very similar info from Nitroexpress.com or doublegunshop.com too.

I dug up the Ross Seyfried article "Holland & Holland Paradox, A Reloading Miracle". He used a 750 gr. Paradox boolit over 21.5 grs. of Unique, 1 x 0.135" card, 2 x 1/4" felt wads producing around 1000 FPS.

Bear in mind that this was in a Paradox gun with mostly smooth bore and slip fit of boolit so little barrel friction.

Yeah... I loaded 0.735" RB's over 36 grs. of Blue Dot and they were hardly light loads. While the load data I was using went to .44 grs. Blue Dot for a 610 gr. slug I stopped at 38 grs. under a 585 gr. round ball because recoil was stout to say the least. I'd want a heavy gun with bull barrel and a thick recoil pad if I was to try 44 grs. under a 610 gr. slug!

Watch with the Federal 209A's as they are "hot" primers. I doubt you will get a blooper with Unique. I had a couple of "foosh!" loads with Blue Dot and relatively light slugs with moderate loads of powder. I think there was not enough pressure for proper burn. Most of the rounds shot pretty well but lots of unburned powder left in the bore.

All this slug talk has got me itching to get to the range. It has been a while but I am getting closer. I'm making a sizer so I can knurl up then size back to bore diameter to see if that helps accuracy. My home made mould casts about 0.001" under bore diameter like the Paradox boolits. They shoot okay but I want to compare at different size.

Longbow

[megasupermagnum]

Yeah, Bluedot is not a dink around powder, it loves pressure and payload. It is my favorite powder by far. I have loaded those round ball slugs. My MEC was having a real hard time getting a fold crimp. I finally got it with an overshot card, and I've loaded 16-22 grains. I'll probably shoot them Saturday. With the Federal 209A, and a .090" deep crimp, they should do well. I loaded in FGM hulls, and the wadding is a Federal 12S4 with petals cut off, 2 nitro cards, and a BPGS (recommendation from this forum) to hold the ball well.

[longbow]

My best results with full bore round ball came with using an over the powder plastic gas seal, a 1/2" hard card wad then a couple of 1/8" nitro card wads. I tried cushion legs with petals cut off, fiber wads under the ball and a couple of combinations but the solid wad column did best for me using Blue Dot.

I concur with your Blue Dot results and enthusiasm. I've heard criticisms of Blue Dot being hard to ignite in the cold but so far I've had no trouble and it is my favourite powder for slugs/balls but... I'm running out and there is no more local supply.

Longbow

[prs]

BPI publishes roll and fold crimp for the approx 1 1/4oz full bore balls. Their loads appear to be in the 1200fps area using PB, Universal, and such. I would stay away from the really fast 700X or quicker, but would consider Green Dot or Unique for light loads to work down to 800fps range. Roll crimp seems to give slightly lower velocity and pressure, yet good ignition.

prs

[megasupermagnum]

Thanks a lot guys, Unique works great. Even at 16 grains, it burned nice and clean. I settled on 18 grains, which provides the best accuracy, and recoil is not bad at all, even in the light gun. Velocity at 18 grains is 950 fps at 8' (just under 1000 fps muzzle velocity). Accuracy was not phenomenal, but more than good enough for the job. 2.75" at 50 yards.

[megasupermagnum]

Just a follow up, I tried them in both my ultra slug hunter and mossberg 500 (smooth bore with rifle sights). The USH shoots about the same as the H&R tracker. I managed a 2.5" 4 shot group at 50 yards. The Tracker shoots about 3", but has open sights. The Mossberg actually shoots them quite well considering its a smooth bore. 4 shots were right at 3", but a 5th was a flyer, opening it up to about 5". Maybe me, maybe bad luck. Either way, these are adequate at 50 yards, and are soft shooting. They cast super easy too.

[Blood Trail]

Longbow,

I'm gonna have to smuggle you some blue dot. I too love some BD, but so far, 800X has been the most consistant powder I use, with Steel not far behind. I really like the velocity I get out of Steel and 800X.

[Mr_Sheesh]

Hmmm how much does powder smuggling pay? :kidding:

[longbow]

I haven't looked recently but last time I asked there had been no "Dot" powders available for some time here and little else including 800X. I did pick up a couple of lbs. of Unique and IIRC that cleaned them out out Unique.

I like the way you think though!

I should check and see what else may be in. Locally guys in the gun club get together and buy a bunch to minimize the HAZMAT fee and order direct from a powder distributor back East. I am not out of powder yet but I am almost out of Blue Dot and running low on SR4756... but having said that I have been shooting so little lately its lasting.

The bigger cities might have better selection but certainly not here.

Now should you show up at my door with a keg of the good stuff we'll have to discuss the "smuggler's pay".

Thanks for thinking of me!

Longbow

[Lonegun1894]

Excellent thread. I have a H&R Tracker 2 that I put into a synthetic stock trying to see how light I can make it to have a very lightweight gun that gets carried a lot but shot just a little at hogs. It ended up being just under 4 1/4 pounds, but I’ve been using 20grs Unique under a .690” RB. Y’all have me thinking I need to put that .735” RB mold to use.

[longbow]

How are you loading that 0.690" ball? What sort of accuracy are you getting?

If you accuracy is good nothing wrong with the 0.690" RB. I have never had success with them myself, too small naked and too large for most shotcups, pinch petals in the shotcups I've tried. Donut wads or the inverted gas seal trick is probably a better approach. That I have not tried.

The disadvantage of the 0.735" RB is weight. They are about 1 3/8" oz. so not a lot of load data available. Okay if you want to use birdshot load data or download which I guess is your goal anyway.

The advantage is weight if you want low velocity and mass. They are also pretty easy to load and I found easy to get accuracy with. I got best results using a plastic gas seal then hard card wad column.

I like round balls and I got very good results using the 0.735" RB in my gun, but then I've gotten good results with 0.662" RB and 0.678" RB too.

Just occurs to me that you could probably use the Metro Gun load data. That is all subsonic and it seems to me they listed some heavy payloads. Its worth looking into. Maybe that's already been mentioned. I didn't read back to refresh my old memory.

Longbow

[Lonegun1894]

Longbow,
You’re going to want to choke me, but I have to admit having spent too much time shooting muzzleloaders. I use the cheap bulk pack birdshot shells that Walmart sells for around $23/100 around here for dove hunting, and save the empties. Reprime, load 20grs of Unique, then use 4 cards I punch out of cardboard with a .715” punch directly over the powder, and then patch the RB in cloth like you do for a muzzleloader. Then fold crimp it shut. I usually get 3-3.5”@50 yards, but this opens up to 6-7”@75, and over a foot at 100. I seriously don’t think I am getting a good gas seal, and recovered RBs do not show the rifling engraving on the RB, so the cloth is probably not doing anything except centering the RB. The shell gets thumbed into the chamber with very light pressure, but will not just drop in like a factory load will. These shells usually do 6-7”@50yards with my smoothbore shotguns with sights, and for some reason, do even worse in my rifled Mossberg 835 which has a scope. I’m still trying to figure out a load that thing likes tho that isn’t store bought.

Now to be fair, I have two Mossberg 500s that shoot both factory Winchester rifled HP slugs and .678” RB in a shotcup into 5-6”@100yards, but I often carry this H&R instead due to the much lighter weight and that most of my shots are usually at 20-40yards on hogs.

[longbow]

Aaaahhhh... good to see some comments on 0.678" balls in shotcups in rifled gun. I get excellent results with 0.678" RB's in my smoothbore giving 3" to 4" groups at 50 yards. I was wondering how they would do in rifled gun. 5" to 6" dependable accuracy at 100 yards would do me just fine.

As you say, round balls from smoothbore can do quite well to 50 yards or so but groups do tend to open up well before 100 yards and frequent fliers become the issue.

You might want to pick up a 3/4" (0.750") punch. 0.750" wads should seal better but even then in my experience there is a lot of gas leakage past even nitro card wads and hard card wads without a plastic gas seal. It could be the gas leakage that is holding your patch in place though. Once out of the hull and through the forcing cone it should be good but the first part of the journey opening crimp and sliding out of a rough hull then jumping through the forcing cone must be hard on a patch.

I patch 0.662" RB's the same way you do but into a shotcup. That works slick and the the patch is protected by the shotcup so no issues. It is just a spacer to give snug fit. I doubt fit would be good enough for rifled gun or that the ball would be spun up to rifling twist. Works well in smoothbore though.

You know what... TRG3 posted that he uses 0.690" RB's in shotcup in rifled gun and his trick is to cut 2 opposing petals off the shotcup so only two hold the ball. Now don't ask why this should work because I don't know. It doesn't change the fit of ball and petal to bore but he says he gets really good accuracy that way. I'd just go with the 0.678" ball in shotcup and if it isn't quite tight enough put a wrap of paper in first.

Lots of ways to skin a cat (gruesome analogy, makes you wonder where that came from and just how many ways there are... and who figured that out!).

Longbow

[Lonegun1894]

You know, you’ve got me thinking about the gas seal. In some of my muzzleloader smoothbore loads, I’ve experimented with a couple of cards, about a 6” length of jute twine frayed into a fiber nest, and then a couple more cards. The idea is that the compression of the jute fiber nest between the two sets of cards creates a better chance of a gas seal. I may have to try this with shotgun shells, but no promises as to if it’ll work or be a waste of time.

[megasupermagnum]

I have not tried a round ball in a shot cup, but I could see where that would be nice. I will say I really like these .735" round balls. They just plain shoot. Super easy to cast, no messing with lube, and I am truly impressed with their short range accuracy. Since I started this thread, I've shot quite a few with 18 grains of Unique, and they are pleasant to shoot in all guns. They barely move my 10 pound ultra slug hunter, and are easy to handle in the 5.5 pound tracker.

[longbow]

Lonegun1894:

You might be better off using a scoop of COW, or for you Southern folks I'm told grits, between those cards but even then I doubt you'll get a good gas seal.

For example, I was shooting a lot of 0.735" round balls and needed gas seals so cut gas seals off some of my wads leaving the shotcup. I wound up with a lot of shotcups and I had bags of nitro card wads and 1/2" hard card wads so decided to try a wad slug in the shotcup sitting on a card wad column of two 1/8" nitro card wads then a 1/2" hard card wad then shotcup with slug.

Accuracy was horribly, the boom was kind of hollow and recoil lighter than same loads with a plastic gas seal. I recovered some shotcups and found out why. The card wad column didn't seal well enough and the shotcups were all gas cut and stretched. I was quite surprised but I am guessing slow powder (Blue Dot) and not good enough seal. Maybe not as much of an issue with faster powders but certainly an issue with my loads. These were all factory card wads which are a tight fit to bore too.

megasupermagnum:

I am in agreement! Round balls are easy to cast and easy to load. I like 'em! There is just something appealing to that big 'ol simple sphere.

I shot my 0.735" RB's without lube and had no leading issues at all in both smoothbore and a borrowed rifled gun. The rifled gun didn't see much shooting but the smoothbore did. If leading was an issue tumble lube or a lubed wad under the ball should take care of it.

Longbow

[BAGTIC]

"Lots of ways to skin a cat ..."

Perhaps that reference was originally applied to a cat-fish.

[Ginsing]

I believe this phrase is ment to express being prepared with back-up plans to deal with contingencies.

[longbow]

But what does one do with all those cat skins?

[megasupermagnum]

That saying is definitely derived from catfish, not a household cat.:redneck: It simply means there are a ton of ways to the same outcome.

I'm not a big catfisherman, but I feed guts to the chickens. They will eat anything.

[Blood Trail]

That saying is definitely derived from catfish, not a household cat.:redneck: It simply means there are a ton of ways to the same outcome.

I'm not a big catfisherman, but I feed guts to the chickens. They will eat anything.

I️ thought it was from when they used cat guts for instrument strings.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Ginsing]

http://www.worldwidewords.org/qa/qa-mor1.htm
Here is what I could find on the origin of the phrase.

[longbow]

To follow BT's line... and surgical sutures. While the catfish thing could be, I think it does mean a household cat. People had somewhat different views of animals and their uses not that long ago.

Wait a minute... weren't we talking about round balls?

[Lonegun1894]

Well, a cat is a fur ball, which has potential for a gas seal... wonder what gauge that would be? And just what are the aerodynamic properties of the average house cat anyway? :)

[Mr_Sheesh]

Depends entirely on the cat. Also relevant: How much blood are you willing to lose, trying to force said cat into the barrel?

[Lonegun1894]

You know, I’ve bled for things I thought were worth it in the past, and willing to do so again, but, um, uh, stuffing a cat down a pipe in the interest of science just doesn’t rise to that level for me. Thank you for bringing me to my senses. I’ll stick with lead RBs.

[MusicMan]

Off topic but just remembered this;
I worked with a woman that was a cat fanatic and I had note paper made up with the first line on the top and the 2nd line at the bottom, and sent all communications to her on them. You could hear her holler through out the building every time she received one of my notes.

1st line = Well you know how I like cats.







2nd line= BBQed!

[megasupermagnum]

I just came across some load data that I thought was interesting. It is an IMR manual from 2003, and in it, there are numerous field loads for 1 1/4 oz with none other than 700x powder at a respectable velocity. I was really surprised. At some point I'm sure I'll be trying it with round balls, backed off a couple grains. It's on page 35.

http://stevespages.com/pdf/imr_reloading.pdf

[dsh1106]

megasupermagnum - I'm interested in this idea, are the components you used with the 18 grs of unique listed in post #16 or did you use something different?

thanks
Scott

[megasupermagnum]

I used a Federal 12S4 wad with the petals cut off, then a 1/8" nitro card on top, followed by a BPGS (gas seal down). I used the BPGS because someone else had had luck with it. It does fit the ball well. Another option is to punch out the center of a nitro card. I've got a lot of ideas to try this winter, I'll keep updating.

[dsh1106]

awesome !! I'll have to give this a try.

Thanks
Scott