'91 Argentine production dates

[Mr Peabody]

After looking for production dates for the '91 Argentines I'm stumped. Does anyone know when a rifle made with the N prefix and 4 digit serial number was made?

[Moleman-]

I've got an "F" marked one from 1893. Seems like a bunch of the links I used to find out the manufacture date no longer work. There is a list on this page partway down. http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/archive/index.php/t-387920.html N**** looks to be 1896.

[Mr Peabody]

Thanks! That helps a lot.

[Dutchman]

1896 from N0000 to O4999. There were 15,000 total made in 1896 and that was the last year rifles were made by Ludwig Loewe. The name changed to DWM after this batch.

They all have 4 digit serial number as they were numbered in blocks of 9,999 with a letter prefix.

Mine is a C-prefix made in 1892 and is 100% matching down to the cleaning rod.

https://media.fotki.com/2vjimokxH3Es.jpg

[vzerone]

1896 from N0000 to O4999. There were 15,000 total made in 1896 and that was the last year rifles were made by Ludwig Loewe. The name changed to DWM after this batch.

They all have 4 digit serial number as they were numbered in blocks of 9,999 with a letter prefix.

Mine is a C-prefix made in 1892 and is 100% matching down to the cleaning rod.

https://media.fotki.com/2vjimokxH3Es.jpg

Does that apply to the various carbines too Dutch? It's insteresting to know that Loewe was Jewish. Later on it caused problems for the company.

[Adam Helmer]

In July 1961, a gun shop in Lewistown, PA had a barrel full of MINT condition M1891 7.65MM rifles for $16.88 each. My twin brother and I each bought one. Mine was L16XX with a short upper handguard and my bother's was M72XX with a long upper handguard.

The 7.65MM is a fine cartridge. I have several M1909 rifles and all are fine cast boolit arms like the original M1891 rifle.

Adam

[Mr Peabody]

Hummm, where would N8099 fit in?

[Wayne Smith]

1896 from the numbers Dutch gave.

[Adam Helmer]

In the early 1960s, every local PA gun shop had many military surplus guns and I wanted them all. I was 15 years old mowing lawns for $1.00 per hour and cut all the grass I could and bought many guns which I still own. The Gun Control Act of 1968 ended those Glory Days of gun collecting and we are all now much safer? I guess San Berdanino, Orlando and Las Vegas were not affected by GCA 1968?

Only honest gun collectors are hindered by "Good Laws", I suppose.

Adam

[Dutchman]

Does that apply to the various carbines too Dutch? It's insteresting to know that Loewe was Jewish. Later on it caused problems for the company.

Does what apply to carbines?

Dutch

[vzerone]

Does what apply to carbines?

Dutch

Those serial number ranges you posted?

[Dutchman]

Those serial number ranges you posted?


Carbines have their own serial number ranges.

Dutch

[vzerone]

Carbines have their own serial number ranges.

Dutch

That's what I thought. Do you happen to have those too Dutch? If you do I'd like to see you post them.

[Dutchman]

That's what I thought. Do you happen to have those too Dutch? If you do I'd like to see you post them.


What's the serial number of the carbine and I'll look it up.

Dutch

[vzerone]

What's the serial number of the carbine and I'll look it up.

Dutch

Dutch sorry it took me a while. The number is C 08##. Early one?

Vince

[vzerone]

I found this in meantime. Does my carbine serial number match what is listed here, which is 1892?

Model 1891..Long Guns..........Carbines
1892.........A0000-C4999
1893.........C5000-F9999........A0000-A4999
.........................................B0000-B4999
1894.........G0000-L4999
1895.........L5000-M9999........A5000-A9999
.................BU00-BU199
.................EM00-EM124
.................EN00-EN74
1896.........N0000-O4999

M1891 DWM

1899.........O5000-T7999........B5000-C5999
1900.........T8000-V3999........C6000-C9589
1901.........V4000-W9999........E5540-8039



M1909 DWM

................Long Guns............Cavalry Carbine.....Engineers Carbine
1909.........A0000-A2999
1910.........A3000-K4999........A0000-B1999.........A0000-A5999
1911.........K5000-M9999........B2000-C3999
1912.........N0000-P9999......................................A6000-A9999

[Dutchman]

Looks like 1899 for a carbine.

Dutch

[vzerone]

Looks like 1899 for a carbine.

Dutch

Wouldn't that pull it out of the Antique class? It was sold and bought as an Antique. What do you think of the other chart I put up? It's not saying it's an 1899.

[lefty o]

yes an 1899 is not an antique by the AFTE's definition.

[vzerone]

yes an 1899 is not an antique by the AFTE's definition.

According to the chart I found and posted mines an 1892.

[Moleman-]

vzerone, who made yours? If it was Loewe you're good as they were reformed into DWM in 1896.

[vzerone]

vzerone, who made yours? If it was Loewe you're good as they were reformed into DWM in 1896.

Mines a Lowe

[Moleman-]

Mine had been sporterized long before I got it. Since I couldn't use it in the DNR zone I'm currently in since it was chambered for a bottleneck cartridge, I made an octagon barrel for it in 44x1.8".

[vzerone]

Very nice looking rifle.

[Dutchman]

According to the chart I found and posted mines an 1892.

You said s/n is C08xx yes? And its a carbine, yes?


M1891 DWM
(rifles) (carbines)
1899.........O5000-T7999........B5000-C5999 <------ yours fits in here.

Dutch

[vzerone]

Dutch, Dutch, Dutch, what am I missing. My carbine is a LOEWE not a DWM!

[swheeler]

If I'm reading it right yours has a long rifle, not carbine, Loewe serial number?

[vzerone]

If I'm reading it right yours has a long rifle, not carbine, Loewe serial number?

According to the chart I posted yes. My carbine is the Engineer carbine meaning it has the bayonet attachment bands. It's a definite 100 percent carbine not a cut down rifle. Also clearly marked Loewe on left side of the receiver. In doing more research there is a debate over when Loewe became DWM did they move their factory or did they just change the name out front? Some think that when it became DWM that DWM used up the existing Loewe receivers to finish them off before manufacturing new receiver with their DWM trademark. German and Belgium records were pretty much destroyed in WWII, but Argentina's records were not. There is talk to that all rifles and carbines made by DWM are not antiques.

I can see by the chart that my carbine is confusing.

[swheeler]

If only Ludvig Lova was alive to tell you!:drinks: I knew a guy who used to post here had one just like that, your bore just like new?

[vzerone]

If only Ludvig Lova was alive to tell you!:drinks: I knew a guy who used to post here had one just like that, your bore just like new?

Scott right?, well you know all the 91's and 1909's I have looked at the bores are different between the two. The 91 bore is a mirror and the groove is .313. The 1909 bore, which was new, is .311 and the rifling appears (grooves actually) appear deeper. What's your take on it. Like I said the carbine is mint and all matching including the bayonet bands, magazine, and bolt of course with 90 some percent finish. Crest and lettering is sharp. I actually prefer the Cavalry carbine because it doesn't have the ugly bans on it. Oh, you know who I weaseled it out of! [smilie=1:

[Dutchman]

According to the chart I posted yes. My carbine is the Engineer carbine meaning it has the bayonet attachment bands. It's a definite 100 percent carbine not a cut down rifle. Also clearly marked Loewe on left side of the receiver. In doing more research there is a debate over when Loewe became DWM did they move their factory or did they just change the name out front? Some think that when it became DWM that DWM used up the existing Loewe receivers to finish them off before manufacturing new receiver with their DWM trademark. German and Belgium records were pretty much destroyed in WWII, but Argentina's records were not. There is talk to that all rifles and carbines made by DWM are not antiques.

I can see by the chart that my carbine is confusing.


Pictures. That's what we need. Both sides of the receiver and a couple showing overall the entire carbine. Ain't no way around it we need pictures.

I have the Webster book on Argentine Mausers. Sucker cost $80 and has an IMMENSE amount of information including production dates by mfg et al. Forget about the bayonet issue as it has nothing to do with this. We need pictures.

We have a lot of information about Ludwig Loewe and DWM by virtue of the 1893 South African models and 1895 Chilean models. 1896 was the last year for Loewe-marked production, so sayeth the Webster book which is based on Argentina gov't records. Forget what the internet experts say or argue about. If it isn't in Webster's book it didn't happen.

You get pictures and I'll review (read) the entire section in Webster's book on carbines. That's a lot of reading!

Dutch

[vzerone]

Pictures. That's what we need. Both sides of the receiver and a couple showing overall the entire carbine. Ain't no way around it we need pictures.

I have the Webster book on Argentine Mausers. Sucker cost $80 and has an IMMENSE amount of information including production dates by mfg et al. Forget about the bayonet issue as it has nothing to do with this. We need pictures.

We have a lot of information about Ludwig Loewe and DWM by virtue of the 1893 South African models and 1895 Chilean models. 1896 was the last year for Loewe-marked production, so sayeth the Webster book which is based on Argentina gov't records. Forget what the internet experts say or argue about. If it isn't in Webster's book it didn't happen.

You get pictures and I'll review (read) the entire section in Webster's book on carbines. That's a lot of reading!

Dutch

I will do that so give me some time. I appreciate it.

[Dutchman]

Serial number of this 1891 Argentine carbine is A9715 made in 1895 by Ludwig Loewe.
There were 5,000 made that year with numbers A5000 to A9999.

https://media.fotki.com/2vDaz5RnxH3Es.jpg

https://media.fotki.com/2vDazNSFxH3Es.jpg

https://media.fotki.com/2vDaz5WNxH3Es.jpg

1891 rifle serial number C0231 made in 1892 by Ludwig Loewe.
There were 25,000 rifles made that year with numbers A0000 to C4999.

https://media.fotki.com/2v2unTQdjxH3Es.jpg

https://media.fotki.com/2v2unTQroxH3Es.jpg

https://media.fotki.com/2v2unTQzUxH3Es.jpg

https://media.fotki.com/2v2unTbidxH3Es.jpg

[swheeler]

Yep, I think we need to see a couple pictures of it!

[Larry Gibson]

Interesting information. Two of my M91s are Loewes and three are DWMs. The M91 Rifle and M1909 are both in very good to excellent conditions with perfect bores....both are great cast bullet shooters also. The other three were commercial "sporterized". One of the Loewes has been rebarreled to 35 Remington. The other Loewe was converted to a scout configuration and the DWM was D&T'd for a receiver sight as the front sight ramp was already there.

207977

According the chart;
The DWM M1909 was made in 1912

207978

The DWM M91 Rifle was made in 1899

207979

The DWM M91 "sporter" was made in 1899 also

207980

The Loewe M91 "scout" was made in 1894

207982

The Loewe M91 35 Remington was made in 1894

207981

[vzerone]

Yep, I think we need to see a couple pictures of it!

The issue has been resolved Capt Morgan. It involved two rifles actually and Dutch and I figured it out by pm's. Dutch knows this stuff better then good. So go have a couple of beers on me. :drinks: they're healthy for ya!!

[swheeler]

The issue has been resolved Capt Morgan. It involved two rifles actually and Dutch and I figured it out by pm's. Dutch knows this stuff better then good. So go have a couple of beers on me. :drinks: they're healthy for ya!!

What's this Capt Morgan stuff? personal attack< hum.

The top Loewe was sporterized when I got it, 1893(by that I mean the fore stock and barrel were sawed off, I D&T, welded on RCE bolt handle and jeweled bolt)
the full length rifle shows 1892, first year production if not mistaken
207986

[swheeler]

It looks like my 1909 is a 1910 manufacture, it's a 35 Whelen now

[alamogunr]

I've only got the one lonely 1891 but, according to the info posted by vzerone, with ser # W 09xx it is a 1901 DWM mfg. I would like to have a 1909 but every time I have the cash, something else comes along that I'm sure will never be available again. LOL

That is a beautiful rifle that the Dutchman posted. I still remember all the ads for surplus rifles back in the late 50's and early 60's. I was in high school and college then. After graduation I completely got away from guns, got married, raised a family and now that time is short, I have to be very discerning and think about who will inherit these guns or will they sell(auction) them for 10¢ on the dollar.

[vzerone]

I've only got the one lonely 1891 but, according to the info posted by vzerone, with ser # W 09xx it is a 1901 DWM mfg. I would like to have a 1909 but every time I have the cash, something else comes along that I'm sure will never be available again. LOL

That is a beautiful rifle that the Dutchman posted. I still remember all the ads for surplus rifles back in the late 50's and early 60's. I was in high school and college then. After graduation I completely got away from guns, got married, raised a family and now that time is short, I have to be very discerning and think about who will inherit these guns or will they sell(auction) them for 10¢ on the dollar.

I have to give Dutchman the credit. I can't think of anyone that knows more about Swedes and Argentines, and a whole bunch of others. I had found that chart on another forum and it's very possible Dutch may have been the one they got it from.