Who's right and who's wrong? Wheel gun boolit sizing...

[Tripplebeards]

I have watched several videos in the last week on boolit sizing for wheel guns. Some say to size a boolit so it will and can be firmly pushed through the cylinder with a finger for best accuracy and to keep from leading.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=bdj6cldgNzw

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=WCxFAjtlQPc



Then I watch some more videos that say to size .001 over cylinder diameter or I will get leading and poor accuracy.....

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=8VNjn9aIlWY

So which way is correct???

[9.3X62AL]

I load most of my revolver castings at .001"+ throat diameter, some are right at throat diameter. I can't see much difference in downrange accuracy, and haven't leaded a bore for several years. FWIW.......a week ago I was firing a new-to-me S&W in 38 S&W using Lyman #358477 @ .359" (to match my Colt Police Positive's specs) over 3.0 grains of Unique. 50 rounds, zero leading, decent accuracy (the sights are a bit of a challenge for 62 year old eyes), and it ran very well. Yesterday I sat down to clean the little jewel, and also pin-gauged the throats. All 5 will pass a .361" pin, but not a .362". In short, the bullets were .002" undersize, and in this low-pressure environment I was able to get away with undersized bullets. I suspect as the pressure gradient rises the size issue becomes more critical in terms of leading prevention, but in this instance WW-metal bullets .002"- did the right things.

[shooting on a shoestring]

In most cases, those are guidelines only and not hard requirements. Fit your boolits at a firm push fit or up to a couple of thousandths over, then shoot them and see if you like it. Adjust from there as needed.

If you shoot long enough, you’ll find some exceptions that defy understanding. When that happens to me, I give up on understanding and shoot what works.

[Hick]

Good question-- wish I knew the one and only true answer. I have a S&W Model 64 in 38 Special +p. I size all my cast bullets for it to 0.358, because that's the only sizer I have. Never checked to see what the throat is. Never had any leading.

[tazman]

Since I have revolvers that have throats anywhere from .356 to .359 I just size everything at .358 and call that close enough. As it happens, none of my revolver lead with this sizing. All shoot accurately and function is perfect since this will fit in the chambers of all the guns.

[Drm50]

The only thing I can tell you for sure if your throats are smaller than your bore it won't make a
difference, you are out of bussiness. If this isn't a issue you have to experiment on gun to gun
basis to find the diameter that works best in your gun.

[DougGuy]

As others have said, sometimes things just work and you don't understand why because the math certainly does not come out right, but they work well with no leading.

It is a known law of physics that if you shove a larger boolit through a tighter throat, resistance will increase exponentially with size over throat diameter. This increased resistance against getting shoved through a smaller hole will increase pressure. That part, IS written in stone. You won't change that fact. That's the only real downside about sizing greater than throat diameter, because one way or the other, that boolit will leave the throat at throat diameter come hell or high water. This part, is also written in stone. Your cylinder will act as a multi-port sizing die.

I can't see any logic in sizing a boolit a certain diameter, and then knowingly firing it through a smaller die (the cylinder) before it gets to the barrel.

[ShooterAZ]

Sizing to .358 for 38SP and 357Mag works fine for me for ALL my revolvers and Contenders in that caliber. The problems for me rear their ugly heads with 44 Magnum and 45 Colt and mostly (but not always) with the Ruger revolvers I own. Love them, but I have more sizing dies for 44 Cal than any other calibers that I own. Each gun has a preference. The other problem is having molds that cast smaller than desired, but that is a whole other topic.

[JSH]

One good thing about wheel guns, they all come with a 5-9 hole cartridge checker!
Go .001 over on some and then figure some spring back, I would not load a whole pile of them and then only to find you have chambering issues.

[tazman]

I can't see any logic in sizing a boolit a certain diameter, and then knowingly firing it through a smaller die (the cylinder) before it gets to the barrel.

Here is my logic for that.
I have 5 different revolvers that will shoot 38 special cartridges. The throat sizes are all over the place as I described in a previous post. Fortunately the barrels all slug the same or smaller than the cylinder throats for each individual gun. The chambers on all the guns will accept the ammunition sized for the largest throat dimension.
Shooting this "oversize" ammo through these revolvers hasn't had any noticeable effect on the accuracy of the guns. They all shoot better than I can. None of them lead the barrel with it.
I see no need to load 4-5 different sized boolits and try to keep them all segregated for each revolver. I can grab any of my loaded ammo and go to the range knowing I will get excellent results from whichever revolver I have with me that day.
I have the same issue when using jacketed bullets in them. Nearly all 38 special bullets are sized .357(though many are actually .358). A couple of my revolvers have throats smaller than .357. It never seems to effect the results much if any.
Maybe I am all wrong and so far I have just been lucky. Several years and several thousand rounds of ammo would beg to differ with that.
By the way, thank you for the excellent job you did for me when throating my 1911 45ACP barrels. They work a treat now.

[waco]

As others have said, sometimes things just work and you don't understand why because the math certainly does not come out right, but they work well with no leading.

It is a known law of physics that if you shove a larger boolit through a tighter throat, resistance will increase exponentially with size over throat diameter. This increased resistance against getting shoved through a smaller hole will increase pressure. That part, IS written in stone. You won't change that fact. That's the only real downside about sizing greater than throat diameter, because one way or the other, that boolit will leave the throat at throat diameter come hell or high water. This part, is also written in stone. Your cylinder will act as a multi-port sizing die.

I can't see any logic in sizing a boolit a certain diameter, and then knowingly firing it through a smaller die (the cylinder) before it gets to the barrel.

I have cylinders that need your attention.....

[Forrest r]

I've shot/owned a lot of different revolvers in several different calibers over the decades. IMHO accuracy has more to do with the lead bullets design and the alloy hardness. The other thing I found is that the less you swage your bullets down when fired in the cylinders the more accurate the bullet will be.

For what it's worth:
Used to have to match up a cast bullets alloy & lube to get a combo that was accurate. Had a s&w 586 that would shoot bugholes with a load using 38spl brass, fed primers, 3.2gr of ww452, a plain based h&g #50 wc cast with 9bhn (+/-) alloy using a soft lube (nra 50/50) with only the bottom 2 lube grooves filled and sized to .357". Change the lube or fill the 3rd lube groove, bad things would happen. Change to a bevel based h&g #50 or sized those bullets to .358, bad news. If I used a harder alloy the groups would open up.
For me powder coating bullets has opened a new world for me accuracy wise with revolver loads. I've owned a beater 629/44mag for decades along with several different 44cal molds. I've tested a lot of different bullet/powder/ladder tests over the decades looking for a load that would do minute of golfball/nra bullseye (1 1/2") @ 25yds. I came up with 3 bullet/powder combo's that would hold the x-ring on a nra target @ 25yds. I started pc'ing my bullets years ago and found I could use 8bhn/9bhn range scrap for anything I cast for the every revolver/semi-auto/contender bbl I own in the pistol calibers (9mm/38spl/357/44spl/44mag/45acp). I went back and re-visited the same bullets/loads with that beater 629. The only difference this time is that I'm using the same bullets but they are pc'd. At the end of the day I ended up with 13 loads that would hold the x-ring @ 25yds with the pc'd bullets.
13 vs 3 is huge
Same firearm/dies/press/bullets/powder/primers/bullet size (everything is sized to .430")etc. The difference is the lack of a specific lube/pressure combo that is needed with traditional cast/sized/lubed bullets. A soft pc'd bullets takes all of those things out of play.
https://i.imgur.com/BAyAIIY.jpg

Recovered 44cal bullets. Not my picture. Several years ago I had a discussion with another member on this website about round vs square lube grooves and bullet base compression. He sent me this photo showing recovered 44cal bullets. If you look close you can clearly see the bottom lube groove has different lengths/bullet base compression from the different loads/pressures that were used on them. Get the alloy/obturation/lube/pressure all correct and you have an accurate load when using traditional cast/lubed bullets. Powder coating doesn't follow the same rules.

https://i.imgur.com/M8QJ3DM.jpg

Myself I like to have the bullets sized so they slip thru the cylinders with either no force or a minimal force at most. I've never gotten excellent accuracy with lead bullets that had to be pounded with anything to get them to go thru the holes on the cylinders on any revolver. Now the oal of the load is another thing all together. And has proven to have a lot more to do with accuracy in revolvers then the bullet/cylinder fit. I like to load the bullets so they are out into the taper of the cylinder enough so they start straight when fired. A couple plinking loads for the 38spl's/357's. As you can see the bullets are loaded long, mihec's 640's and h&g #50's.
https://i.imgur.com/Daxlniz.jpg

Those long loads pictured above did these targets pictured below. They are not cherry/hand picked targets by any means. They are nothing more than the actual targets used to test those loads.
https://i.imgur.com/vrmI4za.jpg

I was looking for a load for nra bullseye @50ft that could also double as a shotgun shell load for the bowling pin table. We setup 12ga shotgun shells on the bowling pin table instead of bowling pins and shot them with the same rules as bowling pins except we shoot them @50ft.

It's more than likely it's just me. But I've found that a bullets alloy and how straight it starts when in the cylinders has more to do with accuracy them it's initial diameter compared to the cylinders. That's why the same bullseye loads tend to work in countless different firearms. How many times have you seen a post with a reloader/bullseye shooter putting out the the same xxx bullet loaded flush/xxx oal with xxx of this powder for their target load. That's telling me that that is a good pressure/bullet/lube combo for that load.

Sorry, not really what the op asked. But at least it's an answer.

[Tripplebeards]

Thanks Forrest, great information, I like show and tells.. I PC my boolits as well. Id like to see some PC boolit groops either at cylinder size (yours) or .001 over besides which way is the correct to cylinder size boolits. From what I'm seeing either way works long as your bore is the same size or smaller than your cylinder measurements...but with sizing to make your boolit fit firmly into the cylinder will give you tighter groups and better accuracy.

My pistol cylinders are all .451 and the bore .4505. I slugged the bore the other day and could push the slug through my cylinders with my finger. I will be sizing a few of my boolits at .451 with the Lee .451 sizer to see if they pass through firmly like the bore slug and test my groups and check for leading. If my groups are wide and I have leading I'll try sizing at .452 and test again. My guess .451 is going to be optimal for tighter groups and I will have no leading.

[str8wal]

If the groove diameter of the barrel is larger than the throats it won't matter what you size your bullets. Slug your barrel and then see if that slug will easily pass through your throats. If so, then you can start to experiment with bullet sizing.

[9.3X62AL]

Doug Guy--my rationale for sizing +.001" over throat diameter has to do with uncertain outcomes of bullet diameter once seating into a case mouth is accomplished. My 38 Spec/357 Magnum expander spud mics in the .3565" ballpark and .358" bullets get the call. .0015" of radial compression should not reduce diameters of WW or 92/6/2 alloy bullets, but brass age and springback variances enter the picture. The small extra diameter is a "fudge factor" I artificially introduce in the interest of leading prevention. So far--so good.

[robertbank]

There is one advantage of being, in my prime, an average shot. Discerning the effect on accuracy due to improper sizing is problematic at best. I may have slipped a bit since my days in my prime.

There is something to herding ones efforts when it comes to reloading and reloading home cast bullets in particular. By that I mean, with three different 38spl capable guns sizing all .358 makes sense to me. No leading, suggests something is working and my groups are pretty consistent from one gun to another so I have concluded nothing I am doing (casting, sizing, lubing) is affecting the outcome of my shooting.

I apply the same logic, if one can use that term in this context, to loading for my 9MM. Out to 15 yards all my handguns manage to shoot 2" groups off a rest. Beyond that they all manage to shoot within six to twelve inches to 20 yards. Between 15 and 20 yards the bullets have a tendency to yaw off course for reasons unknown to me as the trigonometry and the results just don't add up. Beyond 15 yards that blury thing at the end of the barrel tends to blot out the target if you get my drift.

Take Care

Bob

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

Warning: Information on the interwebs can often contradict itself

I like to size my boolits to "about" .001 over throat size...sometimes it works out successfully.

[HeavyMetal]

"every gun is a rule unto itself"!

Can't be any plainer than that, as for me when I shoot revolver, I now own three, an older pinned and counter bored Model 29 S&W nickel 8 3/8s barrel, a 1950's Colt police positive special in 38 special and a New Flattop Ruger Bisley in 44 Special.

Each of these is loaded with cast boolits that I can just push through the cylinder throats. No leading in my Model 29 which I bought used in 1974, it and the other two revolvers shoot better than I can but I can scare the living daylights out of a Gallon Milk jug at 100 yards with the Model 29!

My old buddy calls BS every time we go to the range cause he claims the barrel on the 29 is already half way down range, LOL!

HM

[DougGuy]

Doug Guy--my rationale for sizing +.001" over throat diameter has to do with uncertain outcomes of bullet diameter once seating into a case mouth is accomplished. My 38 Spec/357 Magnum expander spud mics in the .3565" ballpark and .358" bullets get the call. .0015" of radial compression should not reduce diameters of WW or 92/6/2 alloy bullets, but brass age and springback variances enter the picture. The small extra diameter is a "fudge factor" I artificially introduce in the interest of leading prevention. So far--so good.

Like I was saying..


As others have said, sometimes things just work and you don't understand why because the math certainly does not come out right, but they work well with no leading.

[Outpost75]

Something the bullet sizing advocates forget is that a ternary alloy Pb-Sb-Sn bullet will not emerge from the sizing die being the exact size of the hole through which it was forced, depending upon as-cast diameter, and the amount of reduction which takes place in the die. The sizing die you have which pins out .454" exactly, will probably yield wheelweight + 2% tin bullets which emerge from the die at .455". The die makers know this, and if you take a .452" marked sizer die, the actual hole will probably be .451ish. If you run a wheellweight .456" bullet through an actual .454 pin verified sizer, bullets will likely emerge .455", push the same .456 bullets through a .452 pin verified sizer and it will probably emerge .453-.4535, which is normal.

Binary, dilute tin-lead alloys such as 1:40 or 1:30 do not exhibit this behavior and their sized diameter will stay consistent within +/- 0.0002" over time.

When the bullet is sized, plastic deformation takes place, and the grain structure of the bullet is disturbed and as the strain in the grain structure is relaxed overaging the bullet will change size, usually GROWING in diameter, so a wheelweight + 2% tin bullet which you size to exact throat diameter today, which can be pushed through the throats with light finger pressure, will be an interference fit six months from now.

The mechanism we are talking about is cellular precipitation.

THAT is why you want to size cast bullets to 0.0005 to 0.001" under throat size, not to exact fit!

[DougGuy]

so a wheelweight + 2% tin bullet which you size to exact throat diameter today, which can be pushed through the throats with light finger pressure, will be an interference fit six months from now.

The mechanism we are talking about is cellular precipitation.

THAT is why you want to size cast bullets to 0.0005 to 0.001" under throat size, not to exact fit!

I have said often, that in a perfect world, the boolit needs to be .001" to .002" over groove diameter, and cylinder throats need to be .0005" to .001" over boolit diameter.

That is exactly why I size throats .4525" ~ .4528" when I size for .452" boolits, and I tell my customers to size to .452" and nothing over. Lee .452" sizer dies I have pinned have been .4515"

The longer the boolit? The greater the growth as they age.

500 S&W boolits a customer sent were sized .500" and 6mo later when he sent them to me, they were already .5015" and would not fit in the throats.

For the 475, the 480, and the 500 I do not recommend sizing larger to accommodate age hardened boolit growth, as this presents an even greater resistance at the forcing cone, and a sharp rise in pressure to accompany this interference. I recommend sizing cylinder throats .0005" to .0015" over groove diameter, and sizing boolits within a couple of weeks before they are used. You can't put up a ton of heavy for caliber ammo for these calibers and store them on a shelf, they simply will grow too large as they sit to fit in the cylinders.

[Grmps]

Something the bullet sizing advocates forget is that a ternary alloy Pb-Sb-Sn bullet will not emerge from the sizing die being the exact size of the hole through which it was forced, depending upon as-cast diameter, and the amount of reduction which takes place in the die. The sizing die you have which pins out .454" exactly, will probably yield wheelweight + 2% tin bullets which emerge from the die at .455". The die makers know this, and if you take a .452" marked sizer die, the actual hole will probably be .451ish. If you run a wheellweight .456" bullet through an actual .454 pin verified sizer, bullets will likely emerge .455", push the same .456 bullets through a .452 pin verified sizer and it will probably emerge .453-.4535, which is normal.

Binary, dilute tin-lead alloys such as 1:40 or 1:30 do not exhibit this behavior and their sized diameter will stay consistent within +/- 0.0002" over time.

When the bullet is sized, plastic deformation takes place, and the grain structure of the bullet is disturbed and as the strain in the grain structure is relaxed overaging the bullet will change size, usually GROWING in diameter, so a wheelweight + 2% tin bullet which you size to exact throat diameter today, which can be pushed through the throats with light finger pressure, will be an interference fit six months from now.

The mechanism we are talking about is cellular precipitation.

THAT is why you want to size cast bullets to 0.0005 to 0.001" under throat size, not to exact fit!

What you are saying, (and it makes a lot of sense!)
We need a different sizing die for each different alloy we size

from LASC
https://i.imgur.com/QtNXl4E.jpg

[robertbank]

I think we should go back to the notion:

Cast
Size
Lube
Shoot

repeat frequently.

This could look a lot like work. (Body shakes, then retreats to a tremble followed by copious amounts of perspiration). Ends with a hangover headache.

Take Care

Bob

[tazman]

There is one advantage of being, in my prime, an average shot. Discerning the effect on accuracy due to improper sizing is problematic at best. I may have slipped a bit since my days in my prime.

There is something to herding ones efforts when it comes to reloading and reloading home cast bullets in particular. By that I mean, with three different 38spl capable guns sizing all .358 makes sense to me. No leading, suggests something is working and my groups are pretty consistent from one gun to another so I have concluded nothing I am doing (casting, sizing, lubing) is affecting the outcome of my shooting.

I apply the same logic, if one can use that term in this context, to loading for my 9MM. Out to 15 yards all my handguns manage to shoot 2" groups off a rest. Beyond that they all manage to shoot within six to twelve inches to 20 yards. Between 15 and 20 yards the bullets have a tendency to yaw off course for reasons unknown to me as the trigonometry and the results just don't add up. Beyond 15 yards that blury thing at the end of the barrel tends to blot out the target if you get my drift.

Take Care

Bob

I understand whereof you speak since I am in much the same boat. In the majority of my handguns, jacketed bullets shoot the same groups size for me as my cast boolits. My 9mm pistols would be the only exception to that. Still more than good enough for practice and self defense if required.

[robertbank]

tazman get yourself a CZ 75B /SP-01 series and tune the trigger up. The guns are amazingly accurate when using 124/125 gr bullets. The 147's are too heavy in my opinion though they work well for their intended purpose as a sub sonic round. The =<115 gr go quick but I have never found them to be much for accuracy in my hands. By accuracy, I mean minute of pie plate at 20 yards. Hard bullets seem to work best in the 9MM. God bless those who can shoot sub 6 inches at 25 yards.

My Beretta CX4 Storm reaches out to 120 yards against a 12" plate but a longer barrel and the red dot sight helps.:grin: From a rest of sorts my handguns will make a ding about 30 - 50 percent of the time. Even ugly girls get lucky once in awhile.

Take Care

Bob

[Hans Gruber]

The reason the newly emerging .44 Special cartridge quickly eclipsed the .45 Colt is quite because of chamber size variation on the part of the .45.

The .45 Colt is a direct descendant of the original .44 "black powder" using a .454" round ball. When COLT decided to introduce the .45 Colt, they kept the .454" diameter and built the case around it.
Not long after, S&W, decided to keep the early case size and introduce the ".44" which actually measures .429" due to case size. The original Colt .44-40 was actually a .427" bullet.

As time went by, the .45 Colt revolvers ended up with chamber throats as large as .457" down to .451". In the day of soft-swaged, hollow-based slugs this didn't matter much, but when it came time to CAST solid-base bullets that could not "flare out" to seal whatever diameter they found themselves in, problems began. Then came Colt's own changeup when they introduced the .45 Auto with a .451" bullet. For many years the "rule" for .45 revolver shooters was to size their slugs to match chamber throat size....001" over is fine and will NOT result in any sort of additive leading.

Over the last 100 years the reason the .44 chambering became favored was due to accuracy secondary to a better "standardization" of chamber mouth sizes than with the .45. Even today one can easily buy a .45 Colt revolver with a .451" bore and .454" or larger chambers. Clearly .451" bullets making the transition from case to chamber mouth will be somewhat "upset" and for this reason for many decades "serious" .45 Colt owners did their own casting and loading to ensure bullets fit their chambers.

So, the bottom line is, if your slugs match chamber mouths or slightly larger, they should shoot just fine...and this is WHY, 150 years later, many who favor the .45 colt still load with cast lead boolits.