Wondering about BHN hardness in Skeeter's 44 Special loads

[GSSP]

SS Bisley 44 Special with 4-5/8" barrel. Cast up some 255 gr LBT WFN-PB using straight WW about 4 months back; BHN of 12-13. Now, siting for 4+ months later, the BHN is 15-20. The typical 7.5 gr load of Unique won't shoot. Need to bump the charge to 8.5 gr before groups shrink. Could it be the harder bullets are not obturating/bumping up to fill the bore, at the lower pressures, due to the harder/older BHN/bullets?

7.5 and 8 gr charges, groups running 4-5" where the 8.5 gr is between 1.25" and 2.5" for 5 shots at 25 yds.

Thanks,

Alan

[pjames32]

Probably harder than you need. I shoot for 13-14bhn for my mid range loads, 14-16 for the faster pistol stuff.

[44MAG#1]

First off Skelton didn't use an LBT WFN PB bullet. If your LBT bullets are shooting well at 8.5 gr Unique what is wrong with that? Have you chronoed them yet?
If they are sized groove diameter why would they have to be obturated to fit? They already fit.
Stop and think about it.

[GSSP]

At 7.5 and 8 gr they are not shooting well.

7.5 gr....963 fps, 7 SD (which I like), 5" groups
8 gr...... 1006 fps, 7 SD (again, I like) but 5" groups
8.5 gr....1056 fps, 13 SD (awesome) 1.25-2" groups

I was hoping the 7.5 gr charge would be a good plinking, daily carry load. Five throats measure .431" and the 6th, .432". Bullets, sized with RCBS .431" size die and lubed run 430". Neither RCBS nor Lyman make a .432" size die. Best I can tell, using Hornday .433 round balls, driven through a clean/oiled bore, my grooves run .429.

I'm thinking the .430" bullets are not obturating in the .431" and .432" throats at the two lower powder charges, thus the poor accuracy. Also, I need to lap the new SS bore. I believe I have a .001" choke at the frame/thread junction over the barrel. I cast up 300 new bullets yesterday and took the worst 100 to coat with lapping compound, load over about 3 gr of Bullseye and go shoot today.

Alan

[44MAG#1]

The bullets should be groove diameter at .430". Or extremely close to it. Why would you want to size to size them larger just to be sized down to fit the groove diameter when they go into the barrel.
If you just stop to think about it you will see the situation.
If you are getting "AWESOME" groups with what you are doing where is the problem?

[chutesnreloads]

For crying out loud.....if you must have a load that light try changing powders and/or lube....for now you know what shoots that bullet/lube combo best with that powder

[GSSP]

This might answer both your questions. Handloader magazine, #236, Aug-Sept 2005, article by Brian Pearce, pg 96, he's talking about the Keith SWC....."allows the bullet's base to obturate, or slug up, and fill chamber throats. This last feature was important for revolvers that had throats measuring larger than bullet diameter - at least as long as bullets were not cast too hard. (Some current commercial bullets are too hard and fail to obturate at typical 44 Special pressures, which can cause leading and does nothing for accuracy."

If my questions bother you, than simply refrain from responding, chutesnreloads.

[DougGuy]

I think you'd be better off having the cylinder throats all evened out and then size to fit those. Uneven throats play havoc with groups b/c of pressure variables. The gun recoils in the hands differently so the muzzle is never pointed at the same place when the boolit exits.

The other thing is spin. It may be that your barrel has a 1:20 twist, which is what the SBH has, and you aren't pushing those WFN boolits hard enough to get the spin necessary to stabilize them in flight. This, would be my first suspicion rather than if they are sealing in the bore.

If you are lapping a SS bore, you would for sure have better luck with .432" so there is another reason to have the throats evened out.

Personally I have found that 50/50+2% with soft lube in a Ruger 44 is the best alloy/lube for that barrel no matter the velocity. I think you would have much better fitment, and accuracy if you recast those with the alloy I mentioned. I like to be able to scratch them with a thumbnail and I get a black bore with a lube star at the muzzle and never need to clean the bore, it just works and works great.

[44MAG#1]

I wonder how Elmer Keith ever made it in shooting his guns? I guess it was a miracle.

[DougGuy]

I wonder how Elmer Keith ever made it in shooting his guns? I guess it was a miracle.

How many of them were Ruger SA? I guess that's when we were making '56 Chebbys out of beer cans too..

[rintinglen]

IGetting back to your original question, I do think your boolits are harder than they need to be. Are they water dropped or heat treated?

I am a little surprised that your wheel weights would get that hard just by aging. Back when I shot mostly wheel weights--when I could get them cheaply from tire dealers and they were lead--I never had a batch harden up to that degree. I now longer worry much over BHN, but there was a time when my Lee Hardness tester got a work out I don't ever recall a batch that got over 12-15 and most were 10-12 BHN. I do think a softer boolit would allow you to get better accuracy at lower pressures, but I also think that a trip to the Carolinas would be a good thing for your Cylinder. Doug Guy does great work on cylinder throats, and evening them up won't hurt and may help a bunch.

[44MAG#1]

"56 Chebbys out of beer cans too.."

Don't know what that has to do with it.

[DougGuy]

"56 Chebbys out of beer cans too.."

Don't know what that has to do with it.

When Elmer was shooting and writing his book, they made things a LOT better in those days. The comment about the Chebby was pure sarcasm, Elmer probably didn't need cylinder throats reamed to even them up, and we never made those cars cheap and fast like Ruger cylinders are made. if Elmer was shooting the same guns we shoot, you can believe he would have written about having them fixed and what that did for how they shot.

[44MAG#1]

"When Elmer was shooting and writing his book, they made things a LOT better in those days. The comment about the Chebby was pure sarcasm, Elmer probably didn't need cylinder throats reamed to even them up, and we never made those cars cheap and fast like Ruger cylinders are made. if Elmer was shooting the same guns we shoot, you can believe he would have written about having them fixed and what that did for how they shot."

We don't know for sure about the chamber throats. There was a guy on another forum back may 3 or 4 years ago that bought a very early 60's M29 for a lot of money. You make know what I am talking about. He measured the throats and they ran between .432 and .433 inches. Now whether he knew what he was talking about I don't know. Neither would you. Have you had an opportunity to check a very early M29. I haven't. Just like guys that say the metals in knives were better in years gone by is a joke. We have better steels now then there have ever been. Just because I am 65 I am not going to talk about the "good ole days" like they were the only times that things were perfect.
I would bet that Mr Keith never owned a micrometer or a set of calipers and I know he didn't own a chronograph. So we don't know.
I would really love to know these things but probably will never know. While I am a big follower of Mr Keith he still was just a man. He was a 2400 man and a Keith bullet man just like me. But I do ocassionally use other powders and bullets. We have the right to assume anything about anything there is to assume anything about, but, that doesn't make our assumptions correct or wrong but it makes them just assumptions is all.

[DougGuy]

Right.. We are the same age, fwiw, I think there is a rather large gap between our "golden age" of manufacturing which would include the 1950s, and the abilities of current CNC tooling. Everything got made cheaper and crappier in the years since JFK was shot. That was about the beginning of the "cheapening of America" period. Things went downhill steadily until there weren't no more hill to go down, and we farmed out stuff overseas. If we didn't have the import laws against firearm parts, ALL of our recent Ruger production would be using Asian cylinders and castings, along with every other manufacturer's parts coming from overseas.

I haven't seen 50s and 60s S&W 44 cylinders, I see a LOT of OM Ruger cylinders and pretty much none of them have even throats. The older S&W cylinders I have seen have not had throats anywhere near .432" or .433" and they were meticulously made, no tool marks, sharp edges, everything about them shows that the machining processes were exceptionally well done.

[44MAG#1]

I had a mid 70's M29 and can tell you even though the gun was beautiful the bullets had a lot of slop in the throats. It would be nice if the guys that bought Keith's pre M29 and his carry 4 incher would be on some of these boards as let us know the throat measurement.

[Thumbcocker]

I'm pretty sure Elmer wrote about guns needing new cylinders if the throats were sub bore diameter in Sixguns. He also talked about boolits being sized based on diamaters and slugging bores. If he didn't own a micrometer he had access to one.

[44MAG#1]

If you were a follower of Mr. Keith you would readily know he recommended sizing for 44 caliber bullets .429". If you have any written word on him recommending anything different I would like to know.
Oh yes, I know he mentioned groove diameters but throat diameters??
Where is it? I may be wrong.
Also I am not talking about his early writings either as he was learning then too. In his later years is what I am talking about.
I could be wrong. I know he did mention throats in earlier writings but in his later years in the 44's it was .429".

[17nut]

Just because I am 65 I am not going to talk about the "good ole days" like they were the only times that things were perfect.


You mean way back when: sex was safe and flying was dangerous?

[44MAG#1]

You mean way back when: sex was safe and flying was dangerous?

Yes that was the time.

[17nut]

Bear in mind that Elmer considered 8% tin as hard cast. Blow that hard enough and it will obturate to fill throats.

[44MAG#1]

Again we go back to when he was done experimenting. He recommended 1-16 tin and lead as his "hard" alloy.
Agained sized .429" for the 44's.

[Thumbcocker]

My copy of sixguns is on loan to a new shooter but I do know that EK did discuss that a cylinder with throats smaller than bore needed replacing. He also mentioned different sizing diameters for different guns based on measurements. He was not in favor of using the botre to size down boolits a lot and often sized to groove diameter. You are correct he used 16-1 as hard alloy. My point is that EK at least did some work with throat diameters although he did seem to lean toward sizing boolits to groove. Sixguns is one of my favorite books but it is not especially well organized.

[44MAG#1]

Everyone when doing there experimenting faze tries different things. Most finally settle on a couple things and that is it. This after they find out the biggest equation in handgun accuracy when not on the bench is the shooter. Most work needs to be in the shooter.

[sixshot]

I know for a fact that he had a micrometer.

Dick

[44MAG#1]

"I know for a fact that he had a micrometer.

Dick"

Thanks, coming from you that is good information. But the fact remains in his later years he never mentioned any sizing different than .429" for a 44 caliber revolver. In his earlier years when he was experimenting he mentioned throats and their diameters but he still stressed groove diameters mainly and sizing for them.
Again, if you have any substantiated writings let me know. As I said previously I think he came back to realizing the biggest equation in handgun shooting was the shooter. I believe he rarely if ever mentioned any sizing diameter other than .429" after he realized that. He could have taken a revolver that grouped 4 inches at 50 yds from the bench and outshot most on here if the others were shooting a revolver that grouped 2 inches at 50 yds off the bench shooting from field positions. Not bench rest.
The thought I could be wrong is a great possibility. Even though I was a big follower of his and called him two or three times a year from the mid 70's to just before he had the stroke that he never recovered from. I never rubbed shoulders with him as many of you evidentially did.
Let's get back to the OP. In his post #4 he said he had "awesome" results with a particular load. If it were awesome he should be satisfied. I know I would be.
What more does he need but awesome? Maybe the most awesomeness of awesome?

[dubber123]

I know personally if I find a load that groups well, but I am aware of problems that can be addressed, I tend to address them, knowing it sure isn't going to make things worse, and will likely make things better. If I read the OP correctly, he has a variance in throat diameters, and has a decent sized thread choke.

If it were my gun, I would lap out the choke, then ship the cylinder to Doug to be evened up. I highly doubt he will be disappointed in the result of a little work, and very few dollars spent. Or leave it alone and be happy with "good enough".

[44MAG#1]

Going by the OP'S #4 post he said awesome on that one load. Not good enough.

[TCLouis]

Maybe I am missing the point, but I let the target tell me what the load should be.
Just because Skeeter and his gun liked 7.5 grains does not mean it will perform well in yours or mine.
Precision on paper being the measure of performance I let lead the quest.

[Houndog]

I think most of use too hard an alloy especially in wheel guns! Elmer's 16/1 alloy came out about 10-11 tbn if I remember correctly and ol Elmer called that hard! I use a 50/50 wheelweight lead mixture, air cooled, in 38's and 44 specials, adding Tin only if I start having fill out problems. My favorite loads for both use Unique, 5.0 in 38 and 7.5 in 44 special. I use Elmer's SWC boolets in both from RCBS molds. If you decide to try these loads PLEASE start out lighter and work up!