Sharps Load Build Up Question

[tangsight]

My 45-70 Pedersoli Sharps shoots ten shot strings into a 6" group at 100 yards, so I know I am doing something wrong. The best performing load over the last 18 months uses CCI bench rest primers, Remington Peters brass, fireformed, then neck sized and belled. It is loaded volumetrically with screened FFg Goex. For those who are curious, the weight of the powder charge is between 67 and 68 grains. I use a Lyman 457125 round nose cast in 30 to 1, stick-on wheel weights to tin, which drops at about 0.458" and 518 grains. Pan lubed with SPG. There are two 0.030" veggie wads and three 0.0035" newsprint wads. The bullet is seated with one grease groove exposed, 0.51" deep. Overall cartridge length is 2.878"; they all chamber easily.
The veggie wads are 15/32" (.46875"), and cup slightly in the sized necks. The fireformed case neck inner diameter, prior to sizing, is 0.465".
I have noticed the extracted cases often show a burnt residue on their outside walls, as if lube has been forced between the case walls and the chamber walls. I'm sure that is not supposed to be there. What is happening, and could it be the cause of the poor accuracy?

[Chill Wills]

You make no mention of fouling control between each shot. Either a blow tube or wet wiping will be needed to get the most accuracy out of the rifle.

[Chill Wills]

What is the group like loading the same way but with less and more powder? in other words ....Did you try powder charges from the amount that just fills the case? And then try shooting groups adding powder two grains at a time and working up?

[Chill Wills]

What is the diameter of your case neck expander? I have found that with brass springback, that an expander the same size or a thousands under the bullet size is about right. Smaller expanders can size down the bullet when seated into the case.

Also, if easy, you might want to try some load testing, cutting your current alloy 50/50 with soft lead. Your current alloy has plenty of tin/WW as is, and you might find with this 457125 a slighter softer bullet will shoot as well or better, everything else being the same.

[Bent Ramrod]

That load ought to do 2-1/2-3-1/2”, at worst, with those components.

Do you pour through a drop tube, and use a compression die? Those help, especially with GOEX. You might try a similar charge of Olde Eynsford 1-1/2 Fg; it seems to do better than the regular GOEX in cartridges.

Try seating your boolits so the slightest bit of thumb pressure is necessary to get the cartridge into the chamber, and there are rifling marks on the first band. See if the boolit nose is a good sliding fit into the muzzle of your rifle; if it’s a little rattly, the seating of the boolit slightly should definitely help the grouping.

[country gent]

Working up a Black Powder (BP) load isn't hard but it can be a long process at times if you test every different component. There are 4-5 different BPs, many wad selections ( and then there size),is size of), compression, desired velocity, bullet, primer, and lube. Also the loading techniques vary sometimes.
Goex is fair powder and will work likes heavier compression than some other powders normally. Swiss is said to be the best to work with likes little compression, Olde Ensforde is very good and is in the middle as far as compression of the powder. Price wise its is close to goex and cheaper than swiss. Also test granulations size in 45-70 1 1/2F and 2F are most popular but some use 1F or 3F
Wads can make a difference in loads also. material thickness and size. Materials are cork, cardboard ( a vast area here from ceral boxes to poaster board, waxed milk carton were very popular not long ago) Size may vary from bullet dia to .010 over.
Bullets, there are many styles and thoughts on this. Alloy can also make a big difference in accuracy. Size and or lube makes a big difference with a load also.
Primers are also a varience that can make a difference. while we have little control over them we can test different ones
Compression is the big variable in the equation with BP. a lot of powders need to compressed to burn best and be the most consistant. Its also recommended to compress with a die and not the bullet. Compressing with these soft bullets can deform them also

Here is my current 45-70 load it is 1 1/2MOA or just a little over:
Starline cases, annealed every 3 firings, uniformed, primer pockets, chamfered and deburred, trimmed to same length. Sized in a Meacham bushing die
Primer Remington Large rifle primer with a aluminum foil disc between case and primer. Hand seated to bottom out.
Olde Ensford 2F powder 62 grns thrown with a belding and Mull measure then weighed and trickled up if needed. I drop powder into the cases with a 3 foot drop tube.
over powder wad is a .060 Napa ruber fiber wad at .465 dia. These are hand punched so sharp edge goes up. I install as I'm dropping powder charges.
This is compressed to needed depth for overall length with a compression die. The wad helps keep powder from sticking to the stem and getting around the stem and case.
2 tracing paper wads hand seated with a punch My punch is a push jag with the point cut off.
510 Lyman 457125 round nose bullet cast from 20-1 hand seated into the case to sit on the wads. I use the sizing die set roughly .400 high to set neck tension after the bullet is seated. Very light tension on this load. bullet stay in the case but can be pulled or turned by hand. No crimp. Bullet is .010 of off the rifling for easy loading.

I normally decap by hand clean cases and primer pockets, reprime, drop powder charge and first wad. compress add the 2 TP wads and wipe base of bullet then hand seat and set neck tension. I seldom crimp BP loads for the single shots.

When working up a load I normally start at no air space no compression with the wad stack and work up in 2 grain increments, this adds not only powder but compression as well. I use a chronograph here watching for desired velocity ( 1150-1200 fps) Extreme Spread and Standard deviation. As the charge and compression goes up the ES and SD go down to a point then will start to rise again. At the point where these numbers are lowest and velocity is in range test 1 grn either side of the charge. I then test different primers ( although Ive had very good results in all my rifles with rem LR primers). next I might try different wads. and last is lubes. SPG is good Ive also had good results with home made emmerts improved.

Fouling control makes a big difference also. A blow tube helps put moisture in the bore to keep fouling soft. Wiping removes fouling and is slower. ( On hot days this is a good way to not heat the barrel up) Fouling control can vary from cool humid days to Hot dry days.

[craneman]

A couple of things I would check also, length of brass relative to chamber length, also I find when dealing with a chamber with freebore to seat my bullets so the bottom of a grease groove is even with the case mouth with no lead showing just the grease groove. The lube tends to expand into the free bore taking up space.
Also check the bases of your bullets, I want my bases perfect with no divots/dings for match accuracy.
I would also check the firing line to ensure it isn't broken, this will give erratic ignition. Also check the butt stock making sure it's tight.
Movement/slop in the rear sight will cause gray hairs too.

[John Boy]

tangsight - let's back up... you failed to mention what sights (front & rear) that you have on your rifle.
I don't believe your reloads are the cause for 6" groups at 100yds.
My guess it's a sights issue and whether or not your shooting from a bench rest.
Further, if you have a vernier as the rear sight on the tang - was it sighted correctly

[RPRNY]

You make no mention of fouling control between each shot. Either a blow tube or wet wiping will be needed to get the most accuracy out of the rifle.

We need to hear about this first.

[tangsight]

Thanks for everyone's responses. I will take them in the order they arrived.
I began with a blow tube, and later tried wiping. The wiping got better results (but still disappointing), but the blow tube was faster. I have always either wet wiped after each shot or used a blow tube after each shot. There is always a lube star on the muzzle whenever I check.
As to varying the powder charge, I fashioned a set of eleven shortened 45-70 cases, the shortest of which is 1.78". The next is 1.79", and so on in increments of 0.01". I got the best results from the "1.83" tall "short case measure". I load volumetrically, and the weight of the charge from that measure is always between 67 and 68 grains when I check, which is random. So rather than add two grains by weight, I am adding 0.01" by volume.
As to the diameter of my case neck expander, I use a three die set made by RCBS, in a Rock Chucker press. I size down the necks with the die marked "RCBS 45-70 size R", with the depriming pin removed, then use the next die, the one with the cylindrical insert that has two diameters, an upper and a lower. The diameter of the lower section is 0.456", the upper is 0.463", near as I can tell. I go down about half an inch. The bell is just at the lip of the case, maybe 1/64", to allow me to start the bullet without shaving off any lead.
I have not tried any alloy softer than 30 to 1.
I have used both one and two drop tubes, and I have loaded like a muzzle loader. But I have always compressed the charge, having been taught that Goex requires a fair amount of compression for consistent performance. I have never tried Goex Cartridge or Olde Eynsford.
The nose of my bullet slides freely to the first driving band into the rifle muzzle.
I tried seating the bullets out far enough that they were engraved below the ogive (did not go as far as the first driving band), but my rifle seems to prefer to jump a little. I believe I am about 0.01" short of the rifling when I seat the bullet 0.51" deep.
Country gent, thanks for all your secrets. I agree this could take forever. That's OK with me.
My cases are trimmed to 2.07". I was taught too long was no good, but a little short was OK. I am pretty confident in the smoothness of the bullet bases.
Sights... Well, I had a long range Pedersoli Soule (nice sight, comes in a case as a package with a matching front globe with spirit level), but it had a lot of play in the windage adjustment. So I ordered a Hoke sight, which gets around the play because it isn't a Soule. But the wait is a year for one of them, so I mounted a Marbles sight, equipped with a Merit adjustable eyepiece, in the interim. They seem pretty solid. I almost always shoot off a bench.

If the burnt residue on the outside of the extracted spent case can be explained by brass which is sized down too far, or the like, I will be the happiest guy. I am afraid it is a signal that something is way out of whack, whether I did it or not. What could be causing that?

[country gent]

sooty cases may be a sighn that your brass needs annealed. hardened brass my not expand to seal the chamber.

[tangsight]

I did not know that about hardened brass. My brass is just the occasional used batch one picks up at a gun show (although that is about to change with a 250 case purchase from Starline (all from the same lot). Would it hurt to anneal the brand new brass? I have read that Starline is hard.

[Chill Wills]

If this were my rifle and I wanted to get it shooting well soon, I would address the following. (in Red)


Thanks for everyone's responses. I will take them in the order they arrived.
I began with a blow tube, and later tried wiping. The wiping got better results (but still disappointing), but the blow tube was faster. I have always either wet wiped after each shot or used a blow tube after each shot. There is always a lube star on the muzzle whenever I check.This is good.
As to varying the powder charge, I fashioned a set of eleven shortened 45-70 cases, the shortest of which is 1.78". The next is 1.79", and so on in increments of 0.01". I got the best results from the "1.83" tall "short case measure". I load volumetrically, and the weight of the charge from that measure is always between 67 and 68 grains when I check, which is random. So rather than add two grains by weight, I am adding 0.01" by volume. A powder scale is the accurate (match shooter) loads friend. Loading by volume is close to wissing in the wind.
As to the diameter of my case neck expander, I use a three die set made by RCBS, in a Rock Chucker press. I size down the necks with the die marked "RCBS 45-70 size R", with the depriming pin removed, then use the next die, the one with the cylindrical insert that has two diameters, an upper and a lower. The diameter of the lower section is 0.456", the upper is 0.463", near as I can tell. I go down about half an inch. The bell is just at the lip of the case, maybe 1/64", to allow me to start the bullet without shaving off any lead. The nine thousand (of an inch) delta between the fired case and the sized expanded after firing is crazy. You at the very least need a larger expander die. Don't size the bullets either. Cast softer bullets.
I have not tried any alloy softer than 30 to 1.30-1 WW-tin is not the same as 30-1 Pb-Sn. The former has a hardness of about 13 or 14 BHN after aging a week. The Pb-Sn alloy will be softer at 9 or so BHN
I have used both one and two drop tubes, and I have loaded like a muzzle loader. But I have always compressed the charge, having been taught that Goex requires a fair amount of compression for consistent performance. I have never tried Goex Cartridge or Olde Eynsford.Contrary to most of what is passed as truth, compression is incidental with good powder. You are looking for the accuracy node in the barrel.
The nose of my bullet slides freely to the first driving band into the rifle muzzle. Seat then out like Bent Ramrod said, until you lightly feel the rifling.
I tried seating the bullets out far enough that they were engraved below the ogive (did not go as far as the first driving band), but my rifle seems to prefer to jump a little. I believe I am about 0.01" short of the rifling when I seat the bullet 0.51" deep.
Country gent, thanks for all your secrets. I agree this could take forever. That's OK with me.
My cases are trimmed to 2.07". I was taught too long was no good, but a little short was OK. I am pretty confident in the smoothness of the bullet bases.
Sights... Well, I had a long range Pedersoli Soule (nice sight, comes in a case as a package with a matching front globe with spirit level), but it had a lot of play in the windage adjustment. So I ordered a Hoke sight, which gets around the play because it isn't a Soule. But the wait is a year for one of them, so I mounted a Marbles sight, equipped with a Merit adjustable eyepiece, in the interim. They seem pretty solid. I almost always shoot off a bench.

If the burnt residue on the outside of the extracted spent case can be explained by brass which is sized down too far, or the like, I will be the happiest guy. I am afraid it is a signal that something is way out of whack, whether I did it or not. What could be causing that?

[Chill Wills]

I forgot to add the one other thing worth mentioning. Pedersoli chambers are long. Many are (reported to be) up to 0.035" too long. My one and only Pedersoli sharps was as well.
Your current brass is short for even a correct 45-70 chamber.
You will find even the new Starline 45-70 brass you ordered may be the source of inaccuracy in the long Pedersoli chamber due to them sending it slightly short. Lawyers??? (how will you know how well the rifle shoots if you don't try brass that fits)? You won't.

The 45-70 Starline brass will be trimmed shorter than correct 2.100" when you receive it, and after the first shot it will be even shorter. Some riflemen will buy 45-2.4" cases and trim them after the first firing to fit. There is more to that correctly, but that is the short version.

Good luck, have fun, be safe.

[iwottopq]

"...Primer Remington Large rifle primer with a aluminum foil disc between case and primer..."
What is this???
Thanks
Nino

[rfd]

for starters ...

consistent fouling control is uber important, blow or wipe or both.
use well cast bullets with sharp bases, consistent weight from a good alloy, well lubed and of a consistent diameter.
begin with standard LRP's and no primer wads.
consistent brass such as starline, fire formed** and NOT resized nor annealed, trimmed to length, inside chamfered.
lightly compressed black powder (swiss 1-1/2f preferred), a simple .030" over powder wad used during compression, a pair of .002" newsprint wads under the bullet.
cartridge OAL at or just before the rifling - adjust the powder weight or compression to suit the bullet and max OAL.
bullet thumb seated and if need be very lightly taper crimped so it won't fall out but will swivel in the case and can be pulled out with a bit of effort.

** for new brass, use a BACO .460" straight expander to simulate fire formed brass.

do consider going the paper patched bullet way, too.

[kokomokid]

Lot of good info on loading here but none of it will help if the barrel is leaded up?

[rfd]

you MUST have a "clean" barrel. leading issues with grease groove bullets must be solved and corrected or all bets are off.

[Bent Ramrod]

Smokeless loadings are helped by underlength cases, since they don’t slug up the boolit and there is no potential for pinching them in the leade, raising pressures. For black powder, I don’t mind 5 thou or so over the nominal case length, or even more, as long as the mouths are square and I don’t see them turned in after firing. I want the boolit delivered into the rifling with no potential for swelling up and swaging back down ahead of 20,000 psi pressure in the chamber.

If you are keeping your powder charges within a grain by volume measure, that should be good enough for now, especially at 100 yards. I “semi-weigh” my powder charges, dropping them in my scale pan and making sure they are within 1/2 grain of the target weight before pouring them slowly through my 18” drop tube. It works for me out to 600 yards, and I get no unaccountable shots at 800 or 900, on the rare occasions I go out that far. I do shoot at gongs, though, not the centers of paper targets.

It would be worthwhile to invest in a can of Swiss 1-1/2, and try that. It is thee powder for starting out, as it needs the least amount of “finagling” to get it to work. But still, the old Military standard was 4” at 100 yards, and nothing you’ve reported should shoot worse than that. So there’s some detail in which the Devil is still lurking.

The first time I cracked the 4” barrier was with Elephant powder, (in a ratty original High-Wall), and I noticed that a minimum of four serious (full lung full) blows through the blowtube was necessary. Checking this out by shoving a dry patch through the bore, I found that four or (better) more blows gave the fouling an axle-grease consistency when pushed out on the patch, and the bore was bright after the patch came out. Fewer blows gave splinters of fouling, and eventually buildup that the patch wouldn’t push out. With grease-groove boolits, I do seven or eight blows on the tube between shots, and keep blowing now and then if I am delayed for any reason. The “lube star” at the muzzle just means that the lube hasn’t run out before the boolit exits the barrel. It doesn’t mean that the fouling inside has softened enough for the next shot.

Everybody goes through this frustration at first. Eventually you’ll sort the variables out, and a year later, you will wonder why you had so much trouble.

[tangsight]

Many many thanks to everybody with all the helpful suggestions. I will address them in their order above.
With regard to how I assemble the cartridge components, I have tried both sides of every debatable way of doing things (volumetric loading as opposed to weighing the powder, 20 to 1 as well as 30 to 1, a little bit of compression or lots of it, and seating the bullet out into the rifling or just short of it). Always I assemble a test string both ways and shoot them against each other. The load I describe above is just all the winners.
With the new brass, at least I will be able to weigh and measure and match a batch. I would be interested to hear how the long cases are fired and then trimmed after being fire formed. How do they fit for the first firing?
RFD, I will look up the BACO .460" straight expander. Might at least save me a few pounds of powder and a few gallons of gas.
We are in South Texas, where it is hot and, normally, humid. My shooting partner confessed he has used seven blows on the blow tube; I myself have never used more than five. Still, though, didn't see much difference when I wiped. I will keep at it; it will come.
Concerning leading, neither I nor my shooting partner have seen any evidence of leading (except of course the lack of accuracy... we will recheck).
The Starline brass arrived today, so I have a lot of work in front of me.

[rfd]

when all else seemingly fails, work some loads as consistently as possible (weigh the powder, NO thrown charges) and lead sled @ 200 yards (100 yards for a .45-70 is too dang short and not a good test of that round) with careful multiple wipings (no blowing) 'tween firings. that might be the eye opener ya need. if not, yer loads and process are not as consistent as ya think - and/or yer gun isn't happy with what yer feeding it.

[Don McDowell]

What is the diameter of your bullet? Most pedersoli 45-70 will do their better work with a bullet at .460. If you're fired cases measure .465 inside neck diameter, you may be needing a custom bullet mould to throw a bullet at .463 or bigger.
Forget about the volume and sifting powder, go with a straight up 70 gr charge weight of that Goex 2f. 72 gr may prove a bit better.
No matter what you're powder charge, if you're not using a compression die to compress the powder and wad to just let the bullet base seat firmly on it, there's a pretty good chance your smushing the nose when you seat the bullet.
Run a 2 1/2 inch flannel patch on a jag, soaked in pure gum spirits of turpentine thru the bore a couple of times and follow with a dry patch, that will show you in short order whether or not you have a leading problem.

[tangsight]

My Lyman 457125 pretty much follows the rules about bullet diameter. If I cast 30 to 1 stick on wheel weights to tin, the base band measures .458". If I use a 20 to 1 alloy, then the same location measures between .459" and .460". I have an article about beagling that I thought to try. It would be a cheap solution if it works, and even if it doesn't work very well, it would confirm the benefits of a larger diameter bullet.
Thanks for the leading test. I'm going to the range tomorrow; I will do the test then.

[Lumpy grits]

Go to weight for powder measurement only. Start at 68gn +/- .02gn.
Get rid of all but 1, .030 wad.
How are you compressing the powder?
LG

[tangsight]

Using a compression die from MVA.

[Lumpy grits]

Mva?

Lg

[Don McDowell]

Unless you actually have a tool set up to "beagle" the mould that will actually remove material from the outside of the bullet, and not simply lessen the depth of the lube grooves, about all that process will do is end up wrecking a decent mould.
Might be the best bet to find a bpcr bullet casting outfit, that will sell you some .460 bullets, and if those work then order a mould from BACO, or Brooks.
About 15 years ago, Pedersoli's USA rep decided to address the over size chamber problem by coming out with a mould block designed for those rifles that would drop a bullet at .460 or a bit over. You might try google and see what comes up with the Pedersoli Victory mould, possible you might find someone wanting to sell one. Believe there was a version called the Gunn/Trenk bullet as well.

[tangsight]

Yes, I have read the thread (here, in point of fact) about the interesting history of the Pedersoli-Gunn-Trenk bullet mould. I hope I won't need to search for one of them, at least not yet.
Most of the articles I have read about beagling a mould say no damage is done; if it doesn't work for my rifle, I can always go back to the way the mould was. The process involves placing aluminum tape between the mould blocks. It widens the distance between the blocks two or three thousandths, depending on the tape you use, and you cast an oval shaped bullet. Oval shaped, but ballistically sound. Some guys write about putting the oval bullet through a sizer (which is a swaging process, right), and it ends up becoming a round bullet a thousandth or so larger than before the mould was beagled. I am unsure of the process of which you speak. Maybe I need to do more research.

[tangsight]

Lumpy - I stand corrected. My compression die is from Montana Precision Swaging out of Butte. I should know better; Montana is like the Garden of Eden for BPCR, everything seems to originate from there. I should be more careful to specify.

[Don McDowell]

Good luck.