Soft shooting fast powder for heavy bullets in 9mm 147gr-158gr

[MAGA]

Titegroup was my go to powder for years with 147gr plated bullets in 9mm. I started casting and coating my own bullets in HI-Tek and Titegroup just doesn't work well with cast. I was getting leading and smoke that i didn't get with slower powders like Unique and True Blue.

I am using the 358-155-TC ELCO bullet from NOE

I am looking for a fast powder like titegroup that works good with lead and doesn't burn as hot
I know lots of people don't like fast powders and heavy bullets, but i love them. They make for some of the softest shooting and accurate target loads you can make!


The ideal powder seems like it would be Solo 1000, but its out of stock everywhere!:-(

Some of the powders I think might fit the bill but i have no experience with them are:

Bullseye
Red Dot
WST
231
Accurate Nitro 100
Ramshot Competition
Ramshot Zip

Any experience or other suggestions?

[dbosman]

I don't see load data for any of those for a 147 gr lead bullet. Jacketed yes.
In my own use, I'd try Red Dot, but that's because I like Red Dot in everything I've tried it in.
Opinion not based by experimentation, I'd start with 2 grains and keep a dowel handy for driving out a squib.

[dragon813gt]

I don't see load data for any of those for a 147 gr lead bullet. Jacketed yes.
Then you have data for a lead bullet. I will never understand why people think they need separate data for lead bullets. It's called load development for a reason. I've been using Universal w/ 147gr XTPs for years. I've found it works better w/ heavier bullets than 231. But both will work for what you want.

[vzerone]

Red Dot From 3.3 grains to 3.4 grains CCI-500 Primer
W-231 From 3.5 grains to 4.3 grains CCI-500 Primer
Unique From 3.7 grains to 4.7 grains CCI-500 Primer
WAP From 3.7 grains to 5.3 grains CCI-500 Primer
Bullseye From 3.2 grains to 4.5 grains CCI-500 Primer

that WAP is Winchester AutoComp and it's great powder. I use a lot of it.

[MAGA]

Red Dot From 3.3 grains to 3.4 grains CCI-500 Primer
W-231 From 3.5 grains to 4.3 grains CCI-500 Primer
Unique From 3.7 grains to 4.7 grains CCI-500 Primer
WAP From 3.7 grains to 5.3 grains CCI-500 Primer
Bullseye From 3.2 grains to 4.5 grains CCI-500 Primer

that WAP is Winchester AutoComp and it's great powder. I use a lot of it.

What bullet weight? 147?

[Dirtjumper895]

I use 3.3 grains of bullseye with a powder coated 150grain boolit made from an accurate mold. The projectile is 0.660" long, and I seat at 1.145" OAL. These are approximately 900fps out of a 4.5"barrel.

[Kosh75287]

Richard Lee's Loading manual lists 3.2-3.4/Red Dot/147gr. XTP. Given a lead bullet's higher lubricity, you COULD find that the charge range is broader by 0.1gr. on each end, but keep a wooden dowel handy if you try to go below 3.2/Red Dot/147. I'm like dbosman, in that I have liked Red Dot in every caliber in which I've tried it. Even so, I think you'd be better served by something a little slower burning, like Unique, BE-86, or Herco

[vzerone]

What bullet weight? 147?

Those are for 147 grains like you asked. I've shot them in all my nines and they work great. I started with the starting loads.

[JBinMN]

I just ran a ladder test the other day on the missus 38Sp (.357 LCR) using Red Dot & 148 gr. WC's( Along with some other weight boolits)
I started at 2.1 & went up the ladder at 1/10th a gr. each time to 2.9 in an attempt to find some reduced load for her hands that have health issues. You will likely not need a stick for a squib from the powder, but you may not get full function of the slide at lower powder measures. I only did half of them for accuracy check, but I forgot the chrono that day so I cannot supply the ave. fps/mps for ya yet. I will be doing the rest of the ladder test for chrono prolly later this week. Just as an aside the snubbie had the best groups with 2.2/2.5/2.9 with 4/5 in the bull at 15 yds, benched. next I will have her try each & see which she prefers.

I have some 9mm 124gr. all ready to go for the 9mm (SR9) for ladder testing the same Red Dot, but I have not loaded any of the 148gr. WC's or even 158gr SWC, as cast, in it yet. I am not sure when you will be making your decision of which powder, but I can load up some & do the same type of tests on them sometime in the next few days, if ya like. Just let me know if ya do, and I'll start making some up tomorrow night. Was gonna do it eventually anyway, but I take my time on this stuff, with no hurry, so I just had not got a round to it yet.
:)

P.S.- Red Dot works with a lot of firearms & is relatively inexpensive compared to others most of the time, IMO. Almost the same powder measures as Bullseye & both are efficient in regard to powder amounts per round as compared to other loads. Something to consider.
;)

ETA: 700X might be worth considering, but it is not on your list. Also close to the same amounts of powder as RD & BE, but a bit more expensive around here.
:)

[MAGA]

I just ran a ladder test the other day on the missus 38Sp (.357 LCR) using Red Dot & 148 gr. WC's( Along with some other weight boolits)
I started at 2.1 & went up the ladder at 1/10th a gr. each time to 2.9 in an attempt to find some reduced load for her hands that have health issues. You will likely not need a stick for a squib from the powder, but you may not get full function of the slide at lower powder measures. I only did half of them for accuracy check, but I forgot the chrono that day so I cannot supply the ave. fps/mps for ya yet. I will be doing the rest of the ladder test for chrono prolly later this week. Just as an aside the snubbie had the best groups with 2.2/2.5/2.9 with 4/5 in the bull at 15 yds, benched. next I will have her try each & see which she prefers.

I have some 9mm 124gr. all ready to go for the 9mm (SR9) for ladder testing the same Red Dot, but I have not loaded any of the 148gr. WC's or even 158gr SWC, as cast, in it yet. I am not sure when you will be making your decision of which powder, but I can load up some & do the same type of tests on them sometime in the next few days, if ya like. Just let me know if ya do, and I'll start making some up tomorrow night. Was gonna do it eventually anyway, but I take my time on this stuff, with no hurry, so I just had not got a round to it yet.
:)

Wow! That would be great!
I am using the 155gr mold but the boolits actually weigh 157grains so if you could do the 147's or the 158's that would be really great!

Thanks!

[JBinMN]

OK, I will try to do this for ya this week. I will start loading some tomorrow night after I get back from working on some of my oldest sons property. Hopefully be shooting them by the weekend, or sooner if I can get the time.
:)

Do you want some slightly reduced loads, or just in the range of the "manual(s)" start to max loads?

[Meatpuppet]

I have shot thousands of The Blue Bullet 147gr (actually 150gr) 9mm coated rounds using Nobel Sport Vectan Prima V. Clean, cool and soft shooting. Not a bad price at $14 per lb from Graf and Sons. They routinely have free shipping/hazmat with a 20lb purchase.

3.2gr Prima V / TBB 147gr / 1.10 oal / Fed SPP Magnum / light taper crimp on Lee FCD / Chrono at 890fps in my CZ Shadow

[MAGA]

OK, I will try to do this for ya this week. I will start loading some tomorrow night after I get back from working on some of my oldest sons property. Hopefully be shooting them by the weekend, or sooner if I can get the time.
:)

Do you want some slightly reduced loads, or just in the range of the "manual(s)" start to max loads?

Just whatever you feel comfortable with
According to NOE data for red dot and a 155gr they list from 2.6 to 2.8
Which seems a little low compared to the data you guys have listed and this bullet is made to be loaded long so it's not a case capacity issue

[vzerone]

Just whatever you feel comfortable with
According to NOE data for red dot and a 155gr they list from 2.6 to 2.8
Which seems a little low compared to the data you guys have listed and this bullet is made to be loaded long so it's not a case capacity issue


Not disagreeing with you on the Red Dot load, but remember that 155 is 8 grains heavier then the loads I gave for Red Dot with the 147 grain. The 155 grain would likely have more bearing surface. I would start with the low loads and work up. All the loads I posted I've shot out of various 9mm's and they are very good loads.

[JBinMN]

I will give you the data I find & use(sources), & what loads I use, & you can make the decisions on what you want to use.
;)

I do not use max loads for anything I shoot. I try to stay .1 gr. below Max., at minimum. If someone else wants to go higher than it is on them.
:)

I am quite content to stay below the suggested maximum. I "pushed the envelope" over the years on other things & paid/are paying for it. LOL
:)

Anyway, I use about 4-5 manuals I have for data & then I also bounce the data off of others, & use other sources like here on the internet. As most folks who use some common sense & reload, folks generally use the starting load & work up for each firearm. And others, like me, will also work on reduced loads for those who can't handle the recoil, etc., for some reason or another, like my wifes hand issues & my grandsons being only 7 & 8 with lil hands. Then , ya have the ones who "want to push the envelope" & more power to them. Everyone is different.
;)

I will let ya know what I find anyway. In a few days...
:)

[wlkjr]

What pistol are you shooting them out of? I am using 3 different Glocks with Titegroup and a 147gr with Hi-Tek. The mold is from Accurate and has no lube grooves. I also previously use 147gr from Bayou without issue.

[MAGA]

I will give you the data I find & use(sources), & what loads I use, & you can make the decisions on what you want to use.
;)

I do not use max loads for anything I shoot. I try to stay .1 gr. below Max., at minimum. If someone else wants to go higher than it is on them.
:)

I am quite content to stay below the suggested maximum. I "pushed the envelope" over the years on other things & paid/are paying for it. LOL
:)

Anyway, I use about 4-5 manuals I have for data & then I also bounce the data off of others, & use other sources like here on the internet. As most folks who use some common sense & reload, folks generally use the starting load & work up for each firearm. And others, like me, will also work on reduced loads for those who can't handle the recoil, etc., for some reason or another, like my wifes hand issues & my grandsons being only 7 & 8 with lil hands. Then , ya have the ones who "want to push the envelope" & more power to them. Everyone is different.
;)

I will let ya know what I find anyway. In a few days...
:)


Awesome thanks!
I too am after reduced loads, I don't load anything at max, I enjoy low recoil soft shooting accurate loads also.
We have a gun show this weekend so hopefully I can pick up a pound of red dot.

I too use data from multiple sources, I always check several manuals and compare the data before I work up a load

I look forward to hearing about your results!

[MAGA]

What pistol are you shooting them out of? I am using 3 different Glocks with Titegroup and a 147gr with Hi-Tek. The mold is from Accurate and has no lube grooves. I also previously use 147gr from Bayou without issue.

Glock 43, for this one. It's funny I buy commercial cast acme 145gr hi tek coated bullets and shoot with 2.8gr of titegroup and get no leading!
I guess they use hardball alloy though instead of wheel weights lol

[JBinMN]

While I was doing my research before loading I found this for ya. It is with a different powder than RDot (WIN 231), but you can likely use the info since the powder used was on your list in the OP.:
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?66108-Anyone-shooting-158-grn-boolits-in-9mm&p=706842&viewfull=1#post706842

Here is the topic from the top:
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?66108-Anyone-shooting-158-grn-boolits-in-9mm

Some of the things I am checking on before I load any rounds will be OAL, & feed for both the 147WC & the SWC158. I have been thinking about this since yesterday. If I can not get the WC to feed after setting it out so I do not compress the load, I think I will take a file & remove some of the tip of the 158 gr. SWC to bring it down to 147gr. & see if that feeds.
I have some 124gr. 2Rs that I have been using & I think I may just seat the 147 or 158 to the same depth into the case as the 124gr & check OAL to make sure it is not over the Max OAL and go with that, then check for feed & plunk. That way it will not be taking up any more case room than the 124gr. and cause an overpressure from that.

Once I get the OAL & Feed taken care of, then I will be figuring out the loads for the ladder testing of each. Then, as I test the loads when I fire, I will be looking for cycling issues & overpressure issues as I go up in powder amounts. At the same time observing the FPS from the chrony as I go. I will not be looking for accuracy at this point, just finding the "window" for the loads. I am still researching the loads, & have found some to use both in the manuals & online. I will be starting relatively low for reduced loads & safety reasons first, then move up to approach the start loads I have found and keep an eye on possible issues.

I will repeat that I am using a Ruger SR9 for this & it is relatively new. With only 3-400 rounds thru it, so it should be up to the task & basically just broken in. Feeding issues may not be the same for your 9mm, & of course are dependent on the boolits tip as well. ( I am pretty sure the WC is gonna be a "no go" because of the flatness, but I will try it with a dummy or two a few times to see if I can make it work anyway, otherwise, I will file down the 158SWCs to 147 & try those too.)

My main goal right now is finding the reduced loads below "book" start loads up to a point that is still below max & cycles the firearm well.( <should be in the lower 2grs, then go up) Then work back down or up again from the bottom (reduced start) for accuracy "sweet spot(s)".

Well, that is all I am up to for ya at this point with the Red Dot testing. I will be doing more tomorrow & hopefully shooting by Friday.

If I run across any more loads or data for the other powders as I go, I will bring them here for ya.
:)

I hope I am not overwhelming your topic here with my posts, I just want to share what I am doing & what I find to help. Both you & me, plus possibly others who come along later. But, if ya want me to back off, I certainly can. Just let me know.
;)

[JBinMN]

You might also find these to be interesting reading:

http://www.beartoothbullets.com/tech_notes/archive_tech_notes.htm/18

http://www.shootingtimes.com/reloading/reloading-heavy-bullets-in-9mm-luger/

[MAGA]

While I was doing my research before loading I found this for ya. It is with a different powder than RDot (WIN 231), but you can likely use the info since the powder used was on your list in the OP.:
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?66108-Anyone-shooting-158-grn-boolits-in-9mm&p=706842&viewfull=1#post706842

Here is the topic from the top:
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?66108-Anyone-shooting-158-grn-boolits-in-9mm

Some of the things I am checking on before I load any rounds will be OAL, & feed for both the 147WC & the SWC158. I have been thinking about this since yesterday. If I can not get the WC to feed after setting it out so I do not compress the load, I think I will take a file & remove some of the tip of the 158 gr. SWC to bring it down to 147gr. & see if that feeds.
I have some 124gr. 2Rs that I have been using & I think I may just seat the 147 or 158 to the same depth into the case as the 124gr & check OAL to make sure it is not over the Max OAL and go with that, then check for feed & plunk. That way it will not be taking up any more case room than the 124gr. and cause an overpressure from that.

Once I get the OAL & Feed taken care of, then I will be figuring out the loads for the ladder testing of each. Then, as I test the loads when I fire, I will be looking for cycling issues & overpressure issues as I go up in powder amounts. At the same time observing the FPS from the chrony as I go. I will not be looking for accuracy at this point, just finding the "window" for the loads. I am still researching the loads, & have found some to use both in the manuals & online. I will be starting relatively low for reduced loads & safety reasons first, then move up to approach the start loads I have found and keep an eye on possible issues.

I will repeat that I am using a Ruger SR9 for this & it is relatively new. With only 3-400 rounds thru it, so it should be up to the task & basically just broken in. Feeding issues may not be the same for your 9mm, & of course are dependent on the boolits tip as well. ( I am pretty sure the WC is gonna be a "no go" because of the flatness, but I will try it with a dummy or two a few times to see if I can make it work anyway, otherwise, I will file down the 158SWCs to 147 & try those too.)

My main goal right now is finding the reduced loads below "book" start loads up to a point that is still below max & cycles the firearm well.( <should be in the lower 2grs, then go up) Then work back down or up again from the bottom (reduced start) for accuracy "sweet spot(s)".

Well, that is all I am up to for ya at this point with the Red Dot testing. I will be doing more tomorrow & hopefully shooting by Friday.

If I run across any more loads or data for the other powders as I go, I will bring them here for ya.
:)

I hope I am not overwhelming your topic here with my posts, I just want to share what I am doing & what I find to help. Both you & me, plus possibly others who come along later. But, if ya want me to back off, I certainly can. Just let me know.


;)

No!

This is great info! Keep it coming!

[JBinMN]

Here is a pic of the boolits. Sized to .357 .

158gr then 158 gr. filed to 148.1, then 148WC:

206207

I am working on the OAL & feed now. will report back later on them.

[Missus had some "honey -do"s for me today. Slowed progress, but SWMBO takes precedent once in a while. ;)]

[JBinMN]

They are all loaded. 2.3gr. to 2.7 gr. Alliant Red Dot stepped in a ladder of .1 gr. each.[ IIRC, my manuals state on ave. 2.8 BE to start & 3.2 IIRC Max. Since I am using Red Dot & it is very close to the same amounts as BE most every time, I just stayed below that for these particular ladder tests]] 25 of the 147gr boolit & 25 of the 158gr boolit. Both SWC, or "Modified" SWC. Primers are Winchester SP. Cases are 48 PPU & a couple "strays" I used to make "50". They are the ones with the "A-USA" on them but I do not remember the manufacturer. I think I only have about 25 of them in all of the cases of different calibers I own.

Anyway.... WCs were a "No-go" like I figured. Not on this pistol anyway.

The COL I worked out for the SWCs is 1.10 with the bullet seated the same depth into the case as a 124gr. 2R. The "Modified" SWC's are at around 1.03 COL. They are also seated to the same as the 124 2R. This is to make sure that the space in the cases below the powder was not compressed. I will add though, that in the range of powders I used for starting work up the ladder, at the point I reached the "Start loads" for 147gr. from my manuals, I was getting close to compressing powder. I am pretty sure, even though I did not go that high of powder amount, that the Max load listed in the manuals I am referencing are pretty close to compacted or are compacted a mite.

As far as the "Modified" SWCs....They weigh about 147.6 to 148.3 grains. I had to figure out the learning curve on sanding them down to get to the 147 ballpark. Filing them individually was a pain & very slow. So, I got out one of my belt sanders & went to town. Buying the bullets, or having a SWC, or pointed/rounded tip boolit would be a better way to go, but, since this was for experimentation, I winged it.

I did not get out to chrony them today. I was just to busy with the "honey do list" & other tasks. I will report back with that data & anything else I may have missed in this post, in the next few days. ( Supposed to rain for 2 days in the forecast, but if I can get out in between rains, & wind, I will test fire.)

If there are any questions about what I just posted , or maybe someone wants to remind me of anything I forgot... Please DO!
:)

[MAGA]

They are all loaded. 2.3gr. to 2.7 gr. Alliant Red Dot stepped in a ladder of .1 gr. each.[ IIRC, my manuals state on ave. 2.8 BE to start & 3.2 IIRC Max. Since I am using Red Dot & it is very close to the same amounts as BE most every time, I just stayed below that for these particular ladder tests]] 25 of the 147gr boolit & 25 of the 158gr boolit. Both SWC, or "Modified" SWC. Primers are Winchester SP. Cases are 48 PPU & a couple "strays" I used to make "50". They are the ones with the "A-USA" on them but I do not remember the manufacturer. I think I only have about 25 of them in all of the cases of different calibers I own.

Anyway.... WCs were a "No-go" like I figured. Not on this pistol anyway.

The COL I worked out for the SWCs is 1.10 with the bullet seated the same depth into the case as a 124gr. 2R. The "Modified" SWC's are at around 1.03 COL. They are also seated to the same as the 124 2R. This is to make sure that the space in the cases below the powder was not compressed. I will add though, that in the range of powders I used for starting work up the ladder, at the point I reached the "Start loads" for 147gr. from my manuals, I was getting close to compressing powder. I am pretty sure, even though I did not go that high of powder amount, that the Max load listed in the manuals I am referencing are pretty close to compacted or are compacted a mite.

As far as the "Modified" SWCs....They weigh about 147.6 to 148.3 grains. I had to figure out the learning curve on sanding them down to get to the 147 ballpark. Filing them individually was a pain & very slow. So, I got out one of my belt sanders & went to town. Buying the bullets, or having a SWC, or pointed/rounded tip boolit would be a better way to go, but, since this was for experimentation, I winged it.

I did not get out to chrony them today. I was just to busy with the "honey do list" & other tasks. I will report back with that data & anything else I may have missed in this post, in the next few days. ( Supposed to rain for 2 days in the forecast, but if I can get out in between rains, & wind, I will test fire.)

If there are any questions about what I just posted , or maybe someone wants to remind me of anything I forgot... Please DO!
:)


I am intrigued by using the ladder test method for developing loads, I always have used the shoot groups method but the ladder test seems like you would waste less bullets that way

Also when you are ladder testing handgun loads are you shooting off a bag or rest?

[JBinMN]

I use the ladder test for load development first, usually when I do not know for sure how a certain powder, or some other component(s) does for a particular firearm. Like what we are doing right now. I am not familiar with using 147gr & 158 gr. boolits. I am familiar with the components, but not how they will work together with this particular firarm. In this case a Ruger SR9 (9mm). SO, since I have some data for 147gr, courtesy of the manuals, and I know that Red Dot powder is similar to loads for Bullseye & 700x in performance. Even though I do not have actual tested data for the Red Dot, I can extrapolate (Hypothsize/ W.A.Guess)from the others data to get close to what I want to start with.
[ I.E. - Since Bullseye documented Start load for 147gr. Lyman cast boolit is at about 2.8 grains to reach approx 860+/- FPS & the Max, lets say is at 3.2 gr. and at 960+/- FPS. (< I do not have the manual(s) in from of me, so bear with the numbers). And 700X is just below that in the same manual, and I know from experience, plus research, that Red Dot follows the same characteristics in many other loads & calibers, using +/- the data for those 2 other powders, I can get a good idea of where I want to start.]

Using that, I decided to go with a step for .5 grains down from the other powders data & work up to the Start from there, using .1 grain at a time. That way I should be safe with no overpressure & more worry about non cycling of the firearm, which is usually an easy remedy if it happens in a semi auto.. I can always keep going higher , but I reckon starting low is always the better way. Plus, I get to figure out what sort of loads my missus & grandboys might like to use to shoot the same firearm without as much recoil as higher loads. I believe without doing the math that I am only about 75-85% of the Start load for BE at 2.3. So, I should not be pushing the powder to over pressure & not be so low that I am failing to cycle. ( I hope anyway not too low. LOL)

I hope I explained myself well enough , I don't want to ramble & sometimes I make mistakes in explaining when typing when spoken words are much easier for me to say to get my meaning across.... I hope I did well enough wothout too much rambling here...
:???:

I work on the accuracy, once I find out about the other possible issues, like overpressure, failure to feed/extract(cycle) etc. Once I know that I am working inside of safe parameters, then I test for accuracy using the same ladder and no chrony to find those "sweet spots".
:)

As far as how "I" set up to test...

For me, Almost always a sandbag or two, on a tripod or a bench. Where I am going now I use a tripod I made out of some clothes pole dowels. Set the sandbags( made out of shotshell shot bags) make sure all is stable & shoot. I try to "make" what I use.. I call it "thrifty" & use what I have, instead of buying stuff, other folks call me "cheap". LOL I sit on a metal chair likeyou would see in a school lunchroom. I used to, in younger days & spur of the moment, use the prone position with /without sandbags. But I don't get around like I used to . So , a chair is better for me.
;)

I hope that helped. It took me a while to type out what I could have said, easier...
LOL
:)

[OS OK]

I like your method JB...I sorta do it the same.
I make up a string of loads, 10 rounds each level that I want to ladder (test for grouping) and shoot through the chrony at their own individual targets (so that I can physically compare the groups later) and do this all in one whack per load level.
As I change targets I'll note on the target the load level and cast type and weight, the pistol used along with the distance, usually 10 yards off the bags. It's been effective and I save the targets under different calibers in a 3 ring notebook. You'd be surprised how easy it is to forget 3 months later when you want to load a batch of the best performers.

[JBinMN]

Yes, Charlie, I do almost the exact same thing as you mention. Although in this case, I am doing the ladder with only 5 per step instead of 10. The reason for that is 2 fold. One is, I am venturing into an area of little or no data that I can find. And no one has offered any. ( Both Red Dot data on 147 or 158 gr. boolits/bullets, and reduced loads below 2 comparable powders Start & MAX), the 2nd, other is, that although the data for the 158SWC is fairly useful for my future shooting, if I wanted to check for accuracy & chrony data both, I am not going to use them often. I currently do not have any intention of making it a habit & shooting 147 & 158gr boolits as a common practice. I have other boolit weights/shapes for that. This is really just to help out MAGA and any others who wish to use those weights & Red Dot as an alternative to the other powders. ( And myself, if I decide to in the future).)

The "Modified" SWC147 is just that, "modified" & I have little or no intention of going through & filing/sanding down more 158gr to 147gr+/- in the future. That data is mainly for the powder data & not for any accuracy at this time. Only if I was to get a mold(s) that were 147 & rounder nose to feed better in this SR9 (or any 9mm) would I be interested in shooting for accuracy. Removing the lead as I did from the nose of those SWCs doesn't help with accuracy much, I 'd reckon. Although at the distances I usually ladder test at, 10,15 & 25 yds( handgun) they probably would be relatively accurate. But, that is not my idea of a very good boolit for common usage. ( I could modify a mold by filling in the tip of the bottom of the nose of a SWC mold with something to block the lead from filling that part, but as I said, I am not interested in that profile for regular use now nor likely in the future.
:)

Thanks for your reply! I am happy to see that I am not the only one to do it this way & am not as cockamamie as folks say I am! LOL
:D

[jonp]

I've been playing around with IMR Target. Very clean stuff

[JBinMN]

It has been raining, windy with gust, or both since Friday. I can only shoot outdoors & won't be able to go shoot thru the chrony til Wed. when things calm down. Weather is just not cooperating & I have my Caldwell Ballistics chrony on a light tripod & it will not take the wind gust. Particularly the ones we have now from 30-40- 45 mph ones.

This is our forecast from NOAA:
http://forecast.weather.gov/showsigwx.php?warnzone=MNZ078&warncounty=MNC049&firewxzone=MNZ078&local_place1=4+Miles+S+Miesville+MN&product1=Wind+Advisory


Tonight - A 30 percent chance of showers, mainly after 4am. Cloudy, with a low around 38. Breezy, with a north northwest wind 20 to 25 mph, with gusts as high as 40 mph.

Tuesday - A 30 percent chance of showers, mainly before 7am. Cloudy through mid morning, then gradual clearing, with a high near 47. Windy, with a northwest wind 25 to 30 mph, with gusts as high as 45 mph.

Tuesday Night - Increasing clouds, with a low around 36. Breezy, with a northwest wind 15 to 20 mph decreasing to 5 to 10 mph after midnight. Winds could gust as high as 30 mph.

Wednesday - Mostly sunny, with a high near 59. West northwest wind around 10 mph.

So, I will go out Wednesday.
:)

[MAGA]

It's been raining and storming here all day also. I made up 7 each of 2.6gr 2.8gr and 3.0gr red dot with the 358-155-tc elco bullet hi tek coated these bullets actually weigh 157gr as I stated before.
With unique and true blue the recoil was noticeably heavier as stated earlier and the poi was low no matter the charge weight. Even though it was raining i shot a magazine of each of the red dot loads just to see the poi. The 2.6 and 2.8 gr loads were higher and the 3.0gr load was right in the bullseye with a good looking group. I plan on making up some more of these and chronographing them, it will be interesting to compare with your chrono data also

[JBinMN]

Great!
:)

I will be certain to post when I go out.
:)

( I have 3 other ladders to do(.380/357/44mag.), but I will do this one 9mm first. I am in no hurry to do the others right now.
Our deer hunting 1st season is coming up soon & i need to work on some 12ga. slug loads in the next 10 days before it starts.

I promise, I will getrdone.
;)

[GhostHawk]

I have been very happy with Red Dot and a variety of bullets in 9mm.

I have loaded from 3 grains to 4.5. The heavy ones being for a carbine.
The 3 grain load is great for pistol.

[John Boy]

I am using the 155gr mold but the boolits actually weigh 157grains so if you could do the 147's or the 158's that would be really great!

You can use the Powley Calculator for your answers ... http://kwk.us/powley.html

[sargenv]

Not really fast burning but it does seem to smoke less and does a good job of pushing the heavier bullets when I load for my 929.. I tend to go a bit slower... I use 3.6-3.8 of Herco with a coated 147.. I have yet to try anything heavier, but this load proved both accurate and pretty soft. I was also able to extract all 8 moon clipped brass from the cylinder of my 929 without any sticking issues I experienced when I used Titegroup, Competition, and other faster burning powders.. Something to think about..

[JBinMN]

Heading out in a lil bit. Wind out of the NW at 9, with some gusts to 16. I am gonna try to set up the chrony so that my Jeep blocks the wind from it.

I will post the data I get later on today/tonight.
:)

[Moonie]

I load 147's with Unique (4gr) and AA#7 (6.3gr). These loads are safe in the firearms I've used them in.

[JBinMN]

This is gonna be a long post...

Here is the data for those who are interested:
Set: 2
Created: 25/10/17 13:48
Description: 9mm. 147gr modified SWC 2.3 he Red Dot
Notes 1:
Notes 2:
Distance to Chrono(FT): 8.00
Ballistic Coefficient: 1.000
Bullet Weight(gr): 0.00
Temp: 53 °F
BP: 29.73 inHg
Altitude: 0.00
# FPS FT-LBS PF
5 800 0.00 0.00
4 821 0.00 0.00
3 792 0.00 0.00
2 769 0.00 0.00
1 791 0.00 0.00
Average: 794.6 FPS
SD: 18.7 FPS
Min: 769 FPS
Max: 821 FPS
Spread: 52 FPS
Shot/sec: 0.1
True MV: 795 FPS
Group Size (in): 0.00

--------------------------------------------
Set: 3
Created: 25/10/17 13:54
Description: 9mm. 158gr SWC 2.3 gr Red Dot
Notes 1:
Notes 2:
Distance to Chrono(FT): 8.00
Ballistic Coefficient: 1.000
Bullet Weight(gr): 0.00
Temp: 53 °F
BP: 29.73 inHg
Altitude: 0.00
# FPS FT-LBS PF
5 734 0.00 0.00
4 750 0.00 0.00
3 731 0.00 0.00
2 748 0.00 0.00
1 735 0.00 0.00
Average: 739.6 FPS
SD: 8.7 FPS
Min: 731 FPS
Max: 750 FPS
Spread: 19 FPS
Shot/sec: 0.1
True MV: 740 FPS
Group Size (in): 0.00

--------------------------------------------
Set: 4
Created: 25/10/17 13:58
Description: 9mm 147gr Mod SWC 2.4gr Red Dot
Notes 1:
Notes 2:
Distance to Chrono(FT): 8.00
Ballistic Coefficient: 1.000
Bullet Weight(gr): 0.00
Temp: 53 °F
BP: 29.73 inHg
Altitude: 0.00
# FPS FT-LBS PF
6 772 0.00 0.00
5 809 0.00 0.00
4 771 0.00 0.00
3 793 0.00 0.00
2 818 0.00 0.00
1 ERROR 3
Average: 792.6 FPS
SD: 21.2 FPS
Min: 771 FPS
Max: 818 FPS
Spread: 47 FPS
Shot/sec: 0.0
True MV: 793 FPS
Group Size (in): 0.00

--------------------------------------------
Set: 5
Created: 25/10/17 14:03
Description: 9mm 158gr SWC 2.4gr Red Dot
Notes 1:
Notes 2:
Distance to Chrono(FT): 8.00
Ballistic Coefficient: 1.000
Bullet Weight(gr): 0.00
Temp: 53 °F
BP: 29.73 inHg
Altitude: 0.00
# FPS FT-LBS PF
6 749 0.00 0.00
5 724 0.00 0.00
4 753 0.00 0.00
3 ERROR 2
2 752 0.00 0.00
1 746 0.00 0.00
Average: 744.8 FPS
SD: 11.9 FPS
Min: 724 FPS
Max: 753 FPS
Spread: 29 FPS
Shot/sec: 0.1
True MV: 745 FPS
Group Size (in): 0.00

--------------------------------------------
Set: 6
Created: 25/10/17 14:06
Description: 9mm 147gr Mod. SWC 2.5gr Red Dot
Notes 1:
Notes 2:
Distance to Chrono(FT): 8.00
Ballistic Coefficient: 1.000
Bullet Weight(gr): 0.00
Temp: 53 °F
BP: 30.24 inHg
Altitude: 0.00
# FPS FT-LBS PF
5 ERROR 3
4 822 0.00 0.00
3 812 0.00 0.00
2 780 0.00 0.00
1 805 0.00 0.00
Average: 804.8 FPS
SD: 17.9 FPS
Min: 780 FPS
Max: 822 FPS
Spread: 42 FPS
Shot/sec: 0.1
True MV: 805 FPS
Group Size (in): 0.00

--------------------------------------------
Set: 7
Created: 25/10/17 14:10
Description: 9mm 158gr SWC 2.5gr Red Dot
Notes 1:
Notes 2:
Distance to Chrono(FT): 8.00
Ballistic Coefficient: 1.000
Bullet Weight(gr): 0.00
Temp: 53 °F
BP: 29.73 inHg
Altitude: 0.00
# FPS FT-LBS PF
4 785 0.00 0.00
3 759 0.00 0.00
2 777 0.00 0.00
1 759 0.00 0.00
Average: 770.0 FPS
SD: 13.1 FPS
Min: 759 FPS
Max: 785 FPS
Spread: 26 FPS
Shot/sec: 0.1
True MV: 770 FPS
Group Size (in): 0.00

--------------------------------------------
Set: 8
Created: 25/10/17 14:15
Description: 9mm 147gr MOD SWC 2.6gr Red Dot
Notes 1:
Notes 2:
Distance to Chrono(FT): 8.00
Ballistic Coefficient: 1.000
Bullet Weight(gr): 0.00
Temp: 54 °F
BP: 29.73 inHg
Altitude: 0.00
# FPS FT-LBS PF
5 790 0.00 0.00
4 812 0.00 0.00
3 804 0.00 0.00
2 802 0.00 0.00
1 802 0.00 0.00
Average: 802.0 FPS
SD: 7.9 FPS
Min: 790 FPS
Max: 812 FPS
Spread: 22 FPS
Shot/sec: 0.1
True MV: 803 FPS
Group Size (in): 0.00

--------------------------------------------
Set: 9
Created: 25/10/17 14:17
Description: 9mm 158gr. SWC 2.6gr Red Dot
Notes 1:
Notes 2:
Distance to Chrono(FT): 8.00
Ballistic Coefficient: 1.000
Bullet Weight(gr): 0.00
Temp: 54 °F
BP: 29.73 inHg
Altitude: 0.00
# FPS FT-LBS PF
5 831 0.00 0.00
4 825 0.00 0.00
3 829 0.00 0.00
2 834 0.00 0.00
1 829 0.00 0.00
Average: 829.6 FPS
SD: 3.3 FPS
Min: 825 FPS
Max: 834 FPS
Spread: 9 FPS
Shot/sec: 0.4
True MV: 830 FPS
Group Size (in): 0.00

--------------------------------------------
Set: 10
Created: 25/10/17 14:20
Description: 9mm. 147. gr. Mod. SWC. 2.7gr Red Dot
Notes 1:
Notes 2:
Distance to Chrono(FT): 8.00
Ballistic Coefficient: 1.000
Bullet Weight(gr): 0.00
Temp: 54 °F
BP: 29.73 inHg
Altitude: 0.00
# FPS FT-LBS PF
5 812 0.00 0.00
4 846 0.00 0.00
3 859 0.00 0.00
2 830 0.00 0.00
1 839 0.00 0.00
Average: 837.2 FPS
SD: 17.6 FPS
Min: 812 FPS
Max: 859 FPS
Spread: 47 FPS
Shot/sec: 0.1
True MV: 838 FPS
Group Size (in): 0.00

--------------------------------------------
Set: 11
Created: 25/10/17 14:22
Description: 9mm. 158gr. SWC. 2.7gr Red Dot
Notes 1:
Notes 2:
Distance to Chrono(FT): 8.00
Ballistic Coefficient: 1.000
Bullet Weight(gr): 0.00
Temp: 54 °F
BP: 29.73 inHg
Altitude: 0.00
# FPS FT-LBS PF
6 826 0.00 0.00
5 803 0.00 0.00
4 834 0.00 0.00
3 810 0.00 0.00
2 816 0.00 0.00
1 ERROR 3
Average: 817.8 FPS
SD: 12.4 FPS
Min: 803 FPS
Max: 834 FPS
Spread: 31 FPS
Shot/sec: 0.1
True MV: 818 FPS
Group Size (in): 0.00

--------------------------------------------

I have already figured out which would be where I would start on accuracy, although every "string" or "step" of the ladder tests had at least one Bullseye in 5 shots. Some did better than others. I was not so much shooting for accuracy, but shooting to make sure I did not hit the Chrony. The alignment of the sandbagged tripod & chair to the target with the chrony in between was off just a bit , with the centerline of the chrony to the right.on that line. So I just aimed at the Bullseye & the shifted POA to the left a bit to make sure the boolits did not come anywhere near the chrony. I saved the target, but did not take a pic of it. Most shots were in the mid upper left, other than the ones in the BE & there were a couple flyers. Remember that the "Mod./Modified SWC were sanded down & were not exactly rue... Just close as I was trying to get the weight close to 147-148 & not so concerned with boolit shape & conformity as far as the nose & having more lead to one side than the other. They were close but not like as cast & more concentric.

The 2.3 & 2.4 loads had stovepipes with the fired case. 2 out of 5 for the 2.3 & 1 out of 5 for the 2.4 with the 147grs boolits. The 158 gr only had 1 & 1 out of 5 at those low powered/reduced loads. Then , as the same with the 2.5 gr. there was a few times that the slide did not lock to the rear as I fired single shots at a time on the slow loads. Just not enough power to activate the slide to the rear to catch well, IMO. BTW, the 147 Mod. SWC just would not feed, but the 158 Gr. SWC did in this SR9. ( only had one hangup on a first round from the mag & that was my fault.) All but the one I screwed up.

As I ran this test I haed a couple of interuptions as other folks pulled in where I was testing & I stopped to ID them & not proceed until I was sure they understood what I was doing. The tests were performed outside at some local MN. State land & one feller was goin into hunt small game & the other was a bow hunter.

I was shooting at 1330 - 1430 or so. About an hour to do the tests. Setup , shoot & take down. The winds was light & variable where I did these tests. Should have been no effect on the boolits trajectory, particularly at only 15 yds.

I think I covered all the info in the last 5 posts I have made about these particular sets of ladder tests. I will try to go back & see if I missed anything for data, like primer type, etc..

I hope this helped any who were curious. I know I learned a bit. I think, based on the SD, that the 2.6 would be were I would go for accuracy to start, then keep working up into the more likely load ranges of there to about 3.4 or maybe just a bit more for Max. BUt... That is just me & "my" opinion...

Sometime in the future I will test those higher level powder charges, but since I am not gonna be shooting much higher than 124-125 gr. boolits in this 9mm. Those test can wait, IMO.
:)

It took a bit of time for things to come together, but I am a bit slow sometimes on getting stuff like this done. Sometimes life sends me off into other paths before I can come back to do stuff like this. & the Weather did not cooperate much since Friday last.

I hope I helped out. If I did not... then you folks can go out & do this stuff yourself next time... ;) LOL

:)

[ I may have forgotten some data, so if I did & ya think of it, just let me know & I will answer. I still need to finish my "write up" of these loads in my logbook. After I do that, then I will have most everything I want to remember & be able to share about these tests. :)]

{ETA: These load were not "batch" loaded with a powder measure, & trusting the measure to be accurate. All loads were individually loaded one at a time. I used an electronic scale & not my RCBS beam scale, but I calibrated for each powder load for each step of the ladder. If I were to do this again now, after this experimental set, I would go to the beam scale to make sure there was no inconsistency in each step, due to the electronic scale possibly having more error +/- than the beam scale. I would suggest that anyone who is interested in doing this sort of stuff, be aware that you do so at your own risk.}

[JBinMN]

I have this data also in a "Google Document" form that might be easier for folks to compare the sets & maybe even download if they like. Once I figure out how I might do this, I will & share it here in case someone is interested.
:)

[MAGA]

Wow great info!
I still haven't been able to chrono my loads yet but those s.d numbers you got look impressive

[JBinMN]

That particular load for both looks pretty good & worth checking again for sure. I am going to make about 10-20 rounds of the 158gr SWC I think, in the next couple of days, just so I have some ready for the next time I go out with the chrony. I don't think I am going to try the Mod. SWC 147+/- gr. I sanded down. I will let you & others with those weight boolits post what you/they find. I am also going to make some loads a bit higher from 2.8 to 3.3 or something like that for the 158gr SWC & test those also. If I do test them, I will post the results here also for your reference.

I also want to remind that I think each firearm has its' own "sweet spot(s)" for powder. My data may not apply to your firearm or anyone elses, but it does show that it is safe so far. AT least for this SR9 I used. Everyone should test their own firearm & keep a look out for pressure issues. Knowing what I know now , I would not waste time on 2.3 or 2.4 anymore. Others can make that decision themselves.
:)

Here is a good link for explaining S.D.( Standard Deviation) for those folks who come along & do not really understand it.
:)
https://northamericanarms.com/ballistics/stddev/

Here is an applicable quote from that link to re-enforce what I was saying about every firearm may be different...

What do you do with the group sizes, average velocities, and standard deviations reported by another shooter? His results can influence which loads you select for trial. Choosing a load that’s listed in a manual and also worked for him beats choosing a random load. After you’ve tested the other shooter’s load, his results should not sway your decision. What counts is how the load performs in your gun, when compared to other loads in your gun.

G'Luck! & Have fun!
:)

[retrobass]

VV N320 or Alliant Sport Pistol. Word on the street is that much faster than those and you'll end up with inconsistent burning, pie plate groups, and/or unpredictable pressure spikes.

[JBinMN]

VV N320 or Alliant Sport Pistol. Word on the street is that much faster than those and you'll end up with inconsistent burning, pie plate groups, and/or unpredictable pressure spikes.

I guess you could bring this up to Lyman about that. ( or maybe other manual providers) Lymans load data for 147gr bullets & boolits have 700x, Bullseye & Titegroup loads listed in at least the 50th reloading handbook. ( That is the only manual I have at hand here by the Laptop right now. I am not near my other sources/manuals to check those, but I went thru them all before I started on this & I did not see anything that merited concern for the testing I did.)

If they thought there was inconsistencies in burn or unpredictable pressures, or anything that could be considered unsafe, I am of the mind that they would not use those powders, all of which are faster burning than your examples. Or, at least, point out their testing showed such adverse conditions using those powders.

I am not trying to argue your post & point. I am just saying that I do not go by the "word on the street" when it comes to much, let alone reloading. I go by experience I can verify, either by my own research, or vetted verifiable sources. At minimum, sources who have demonstrated knowlegde to me in a particular subject & not just hearsay. YMMV on this. Do what "you" feel is right.

I do not have the ability/equipment to test for pressure. I do have the ability to recognize signs and certain firearms behaviors though that could create an unsafe condition. I am comfortable using "MY own judgement" when it comes to testing the loads I choose to test & using what I can to detect issues before they get unsafe. For others??? Once again.. Up to them & YMMV.
:)

Regardless, Thanks for bringing up something that might have been a factor in these particular tests.
:)

BTW... For everyone who reads this topic: I think I already said/posted this above, or something similar, but... You use this data & info at YOUR own risk. I am not responsible for others actions, only MINE.

[KYCaster]

Hmmmmm..........why has no one mentioned Clays?

Seems to be the go-to powder around here for those heavy bullet shooters unhappy with Titegroup.

Jerry

[JBinMN]

Dunno? It would work too.

I just went with Red Dot since I already had it ready to go from loading other rounds for other calibers. Still sitting in the powder measure from the night before. I could have gone & got some BE or or even some 700X too as well as the Clays, but MAGA mentioned Bullseye & Red dot in his list & not those 2 others, so since I was gonna ladder test other rounds with Red Dot, I volunteered to test a couple of these 9mm weights for him. Got focused on that & just plain didn't consider those other ones after. I reckon if I had some trouble with the RedDot I wuld have gone to the others to try next, but it looks like the RD is gonna do fine.
:)

Got some Clays yourself?
Your turn then...
;)
LOL

:D

[sargenv]

The problem with Clays lays with whether it is the old Australian Clays or the new fangled Canadian Clays. I know a few people who swear by the old Clays and swear at the new Clays...

[Moonie]

Hmmmmm..........why has no one mentioned Clays?

Seems to be the go-to powder around here for those heavy bullet shooters unhappy with Titegroup.

Jerry

Lyman cast #4 shows clays 1.9-2.8gr (2.8 listed as compressed) 669fps-873fps for the 147gr. I've not tried it yet but I will admit to using clays for very light loads in other cartridges and even in 9mm with 120gr TC boolits.